it seems to be almost impossible for the average joe to do it. My rig is purposely built, but i never built it for competition. I run 38.5 swampers on 60s f/r, hydro assist, all the good stuff that pretty much puts me into the classes with these buggies that have been built with huge $$$$ and built purposely to be unstopable in competitions. Also geographically i don't understand how you guys do it?? I'm in Colorado for 9 months of the year and there don't seem to ever be competitions within 800 miles.

I feel this is a big problem that our sport/hobby must address, both for the good of rockcrawling in general, and for the guys like me who would just like to have fun in a more structured way.

Am i missing something? Is there something else i could do? How do those of you who compete manage to do it?

-Steve

Start your own sanctioning body. In mud racing, a couple of BIG "national" groups sprang from the dozens of smaller sanctioning bodies (and outlaw groups). In rock crawling, the big guys started first. Now, it's time for the small-time, local groups to fill in the gaps.

TEX

[QUOTE]Originally posted by offroadr35
[B]it seems to be almost impossible for the average joe to do it. My rig is purposely built, but i never built it for competition. I run 38.5 swampers on 60s f/r, hydro assist, all the good stuff that pretty much puts me into the classes with these buggies that have been built with huge $$$$ and built purposely to be unstopable in competitions.

Well, some have or are rebuilding to fit a class

[Quote]
Also geographically i don't understand how you guys do it?? I'm in Colorado for 9 months of the year and there don't seem to ever be competitions within 800 miles.

We'll be in Southern Colorada next year.

[Quote]
I feel this is a big problem that our sport/hobby must address, both for the good of rockcrawling in general, and for the guys like me who would just like to have fun in a more structured way.

We are thinking of adding a sportsman class next year, (full bodied, any suspension)

[quote]
Am i missing something? Is there something else i could do? How do those of you who compete manage to do it?

What are your suggestions, pm me, I want to hear everybody's
suggestion.

Rich Klein
CalROCS

Yeah rich, id like to see this sportman class too!!

I think it would be much more comptetive!!!

See regular old joe out there with his hard built garage rig fully getting it in a comp!!!!!!

I've been thinking about the same thing. I tried a small local comp this last weekend and it was a bunch of "tiptoe through the flags" nonsense making easy terrain harder. Maybe I'm just butthurt because my ride's full width. Is there still anything out there resembling real rockcrawling, in an event? Make it over that however you can, and don't worry about nicking flags laid out at Samurai width?

I like the idea of the Sportsman class;) But will the entries still be $300:confused:

Originally posted by Big Rich
What are your suggestions, pm me, I want to hear everybody's
suggestion.

Rich Klein
CalROCS [/B]

well i don't really have any suggestions because i don't know how these things work. however, i can offer what i would like to see. What you mentioned about a fullbodied rig would be perfect. I am not looking to make any money or even to win...i would just like to have access to a competitive, structured atmosphere. However, creating new classes or modifying the rig to fit a class is the easy part. The hard part is the location problem. Ideally it would be like MX or something similar where everywhere you go you can find somewhere to compete. However, with my limited knowledge, it seems that the sport is not large enough yet to accomplish this. I do, however, think that there are a few states, CO included, that have enough wheelers to have another structured sanctioning body like CalRocs. How about ColRocs? I would be willing to do anything i could to start something like this. You're welcome to PM me or email or just respond to the thread with any thoughts.

Thanks,
Steve

An alternative is, Just get 10 or so rigs together in your local area, setup some flags, everybody throw in 100 bucks each, winner takes all. We do this a few times a year, it's great fun.

Most of the real events I enter, I need to ship my rig too, which is a real PITA. I'm Shipping it out on Thursday for the Hawaii Top Truck Challange(July7).

Originally posted by Slagburn
I've been thinking about the same thing. I tried a small local comp this last weekend and it was a bunch of "tiptoe through the flags" nonsense making easy terrain harder. Maybe I'm just butthurt because my ride's full width. Is there still anything out there resembling real rockcrawling, in an event? Make it over that however you can, and don't worry about nicking flags laid out at Samurai width?

What your discribing is a freestyle event, an there is one in the works for this winter. You could set up a course wide open, but the smaller nimble rigs will still kick everyones ass, look at Shaffer and Lance, or Shupe, even Joel Randle.

[Quote]
Start your own sanctioning body. In mud racing, a couple of BIG "national" groups sprang from the dozens of smaller sanctioning bodies (and outlaw groups). In rock crawling, the big guys started first. Now, it's time for the small-time, local groups to fill in the gaps.
Tex

I think everyone will be surprised, at what will happen over the next couple of months with the "BIG national groups".
And there are smaller groups starting up, but to be local, as opposed to regional, or national, the events require completely different things to happen for them to be successful.
Rich

Rich,

Will the sportsman class fill the gap for the SAS's yota's that aren't buggied yet?

If so :beer:'s to you and I'll see you out there.

Dave

Originally posted by JeepRecoveryTeam
Rich,

Will the sportsman class fill the gap for the SAS's yota's that aren't buggied yet?

If so :beer:'s to you and I'll see you out there.

Dave


That's the Idea........:D :D :D

Rich

Rich, when do you plan on adding all of this??

I think I could prolly run my zuk in there, i dont want to make it into a buggy just yet...

If we add another class, it would be for next season, which may start as soon as this December, in Southern Nevada.

But then again, we could start the class at the sept. event as a single one time class.(no points toward a championship.

Something to think about if it's wanted and enough people are interested.

Rich

Rich would a Truggy fit into that? ;) ;) ;)

also what is the idea for the tire size in this class?

wheelbase changes?

frame?

hydro steering?

do you have to keep the cab roof?

This is still up in the air......but here are my thoughts:D

Full bodied, OEM or factory type replacement
35" tires
ram assist steering
wheel base within 2 inches of stock
anything goes suspension
anything goes powertrain


Basicaly Mod stock but with some exceptions

more of a trail class, or we'd allow more exceptions, but once you placed you'd have to move up.(i don't like that part)

Rich

Originally posted by Big Rich
This is still up in the air......but here are my thoughts:D

35" tires


damn, that screws me. it sucks that in competition my D60s actually become a liability. i think you should change that to at least 39s...:smokin:

-Steve

I hope you consider 36 or 37s max, as they are very common these days :)

I always hear people complain that they can't compete against people with high dollar rigs. Well the current 2002 RCAA points leader (Shaffer) doesn't have a high dollar rig.... His motor, tranny, and transfer case cost less than an Atlas transfer case. He is running junkyard Wagoneer Dana 44's (rear has stock junkyard axle shafts, front has Warns and CTMs). He built the tube chassis himself (out of .120 wall welded seam tubing). The only thing that was expsensive on his rig are the coil overs. Adding everything up in my head, Im sure he has less into his rig than most of the people on this board have into their rigs.

As for travelling, it can get expensive. But let's break it down. This is where all of the 2002 RCAA events are this year. :

Boulder CO to Farmington, NM: 420 miles
Boulder CO to Vernal, UT: 337 miles
Boulder CO to Cedar City, UT: 596 miles
Boulder CO to Johnson Valley, CA: 1057 miles

4820 miles round trip @ 12mpg (assuming you have a diesel) * $1.50/gallon for fuel = $602 in fuel for ALL the events. :p

HAHAHA Lance has the answers on that one :D now you wanna say you don't have the time... That I understand... :D

Originally posted by Big Rich
[B
wheel base within 2 inches of stock


[/B]

with some lifts and shakle reversal your wheel base could be moved over 2 inches and not have done anything. I understand your point in limiting the amount of movement but JMO that sould be a little more and it also depends on how lenient you are on that... just a thought

I have to agree with Lance only I don't live out west. Since you live out west there really is no room to complain. I feel VERY fortunate to have Tellico within 4 hour driving time. And haveing been to Farmington to watch once it is NOTHING like out there. But for me to compete just for travel expensices

Atlanta to Farmington 1573 miles
Atlanta to Vernal 1732 Miles
Atlanta to Cedar City 1982 Miles
Atlanta to Johnson Valley 2106 Miles

Total Miles 14786

$1.50 and 12 Mpg

$1848 in Gas alone

except for the 300 hours in the car, price wise it still is not that bad.... but not do able (just yet)

I really do want to hear opinions on a sportsman class. We have the Competitors in the Mod Stock class working on suggestions for the class, for next season.

BUT, I really want to hear realistic ideas from people that would really complete......think not what is in your rig now, but what would make another class stand alone by itself, and become competitive for the most poeple.

GOT IT???????

THEN GET IT!!!!!!!!


Rich

From someone who competes in many events each year, it's not what you think it is.

It takes 4 events or more just to figure you what you're doing. Most people do an event or 2 and then drop out.

It takes tons of $$$$$. We have a goal of just being able to drive it back in the trailer. If you can't finish events, you will never get the sponsorship cash you need to stay in it.

Here's the hardest thing to learn, not everyone is a superstar driver. I've logged 10 times more seat time then someone I spot for in another class, and he can drive circles around me. Fawker....

Someone had the idea of 10 guys setting up a course and having fun with friends. That's fun. These events are work and you are competing against guys that earn a living doing this.

If anyone is serious about competing, put together a team of 4 guys, 2 rigs, create budgets, plan the years events out, and plan on taking 20 days off from work, minimum. Try it for a year and see how little money you can lose. If you still own a home and are married after a year, you had a good first year.

see ya,

tony k

How would you feel about nascar racing? Like to do it? Well you really can't, sorry thats just the way it is. I can't afford to compete in rock crawling events either, so I don't! Not only that but I really don't wanna. If you really wanna start, your gonna need some money and a very understanding boss to allow for all the time off you'll need.

Jeff

Originally posted by TONY K
If you still own a home and are married after a year, you had a good first year.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Originally posted by dog walker
I can't afford to compete in rock crawling events either, so I don't! Not only that but I really don't wanna.

Uhhhhh, last time I checked, you and Ron are ranked 3rd in the CalROCS Modified/Stock series. :p

Originally posted by Lance
Boulder CO to Farmington, NM: 420 miles
Boulder CO to Vernal, UT: 337 miles
Boulder CO to Cedar City, UT: 596 miles
Boulder CO to Johnson Valley, CA: 1057 miles



Lance: I thought Shaffer was based out of Reno/Carson City NV? not Boulder CO?

Eric

Originally posted by Alpo23


Lance: I thought Shaffer was based out of Reno/Carson City NV? not Boulder CO?

Eric

He is.... But the original poster of this thread is in Boulder, and stated he is not within 800 miles of any competitions.

I am moving to Phoenix so that i can compete. I figure that is a good central location to get to most events without too far of a drive. I know it will mean a lot of sacrifice, and a flexible job, but i am willing to make those choices. I think the point is, you can't have it both ways. If you want to compete now and be successful, IT HAS TO BE YOUR LIFE. Not like 2-3 years ago where a weekend warrior could go out and place in the top 10... I read Lance on another post saying how he and Mike practice every week. That is what is needed to be a succesful team. If you really, really, really want to compete, then it's still in the realm of possibility, and as Lance said, it doesn't take a lot of $$$, just a lot of time. If you are married with kids and a secure job, then competition may be a stretch. I just graduated from college, and now is the perfect time for me to get involved, i just have to save up for that front detroit...

I was looking at the CRCA in the Temecula CA area, but due to cutting my body half off, I'd be running in the Pro-class. My truck isn't ready for that. I think it's a matter of desire to compete and then building for it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Rich
[B]I really do want to hear opinions on a sportsman class. We have the Competitors in the Mod Stock class working on suggestions for the class, for next season.


I think that you should set a few specifics down that make it hard to run just anything. like must retain a certain amount of original body, must retain Street legal status in the state of the licsense, must retain factory etc etc etc...

Originally posted by Lance


He is.... But the original poster of this thread is in Boulder, and stated he is not within 800 miles of any competitions.

Ok, that makes MUCH more sense. I'll go back to lurking now:emb3:

Thanks,
Eric

Now much you can do about the driving distance but honestly your rig is just fine. No you might not win but I can tell you that there were a few people at the OK pro rocks event that has ALOT of fun with a rig smaller than yours and did pretty good too. No one said you have to make all the events did they? Make a goal to get to one. And practice practice practice. Get out of the mind set that you need the bad ass rig. Think about being a bad ass driver and make the rig work for you.

For years I have gone to as many events as I could possibly go to. If all I could do was take pictures and write an article than that is what I would do. Years ago I quit my nice state job in Santa Barbara and took the best job I could find in the rock crawling business. I build my truck as best I can and run it every chance I get. On the weekends if I am not at an event I am working on my truck. Every time I go out I try different things and push my limits. I also study every other driver and rig to see what works. I read everything I can find about rock crawling. This year I entered my first event, the CRCA and simply got lucky and took first place. Later I got a call from Walker Evans asking me to spot for CalRocks and ProRocks. I jumped on this and we are currently number on in points for CalRocks.

I am finishing up the latest version of my rig and hope to enter a few more events this year. Next I need to hit up some vendors to see if I can scare up some sponsorship dollars. To run more events will take tires, gas and entry fee money.

I hope I can continue to be a part of this kick ass sport cause I am having a hell of a good time !

I don't compete because rich won't tell me what class my portals put me in or disqualify me from

Ron

(and you know, I live on the east coast, can't drive worth a damn, rig is usually in parts etc.)

lance thanks for the dollar breakdown, i had no idea those places are that close (i'm new out west). It's more the time aspect that kills me. My rig would get rocked in competitions no matter what cuz i'm 84" wide but i just think it would be fun to give it a shot. To be honest, my driving skills are no where near where they need to be to give me a chance. It's just frustrating for me that there is no easy way to test the water so to speak. Even getting to one event is a big commitment in terms of time and money.

Rich, as far as regulations for the new class, i wish there was a class that allowed larger (maybe up to 40") tires but still not all the trick buggy stuff. It's a shame i get bumped into the unlimited class just cuz my tires are 38.5" in diameter when otherwise my rig is not hugely altered.

-Steve

Originally posted by evilfij
I don't compete because rich won't tell me what class my portals put me in or disqualify me from


You can run portals in the stock modified class. there isn't any rules saying you can't.... If you have rear steer and want to use it, then you have to run the Unlimited class. Otherwise you can run any of the other classes....

Cool, that just leaves skill, a relaible rig, and 1500 miles in the way!

Ron

Originally posted by evilfij
Cool, that just leaves skill, a relaible rig, and 1500 miles in the way! Ron

Ron how far away is Paragon Adventure park in Pennslyania.

Sept 7-8 2002

Rich

I'm making the drive for that competition, so if your closer theres no excuses.

I still have no skill :)

But hey I might be able to get up for that one.

Ron

Originally posted by ItsaCJ6
[B
I think that you should set a few specifics down that make it hard to run just anything. like must retain a certain amount of original body, must retain Street legal status in the state of the licsense, must retain factory etc etc etc... [/B]

Only problem with the street legal status is that the regs are different everywhere. Shoot, there are 4 completely different emmissions regs within 60 miles of where I now sit as I type. If you're going to require street legal status, you also have to require stuff that the most restrictive states would require. Otherwise, a guy from a non-inspection/non-emmissions state (Arkansas for example) could get away with a lot more than say someone who lives in downtown St. Louis & has to contend with emmissions AND a strict inspection.

TEX

Originally posted by dangerranger33
I have to agree with Lance only I don't live out west. Since you live out west there really is no room to complain. I feel VERY fortunate to have Tellico within 4 hour driving time. And haveing been to Farmington to watch once it is NOTHING like out there. But for me to compete just for travel expensices

Atlanta to Farmington 1573 miles
Atlanta to Vernal 1732 Miles
Atlanta to Cedar City 1982 Miles
Atlanta to Johnson Valley 2106 Miles

Total Miles 14786

$1.50 and 12 Mpg

$1848 in Gas alone

except for the 300 hours in the car, price wise it still is not that bad.... but not do able (just yet)

How about something a little closer? The next ERoCC event is July 26-28 in Jellico, TN.

Atlanta to Jellico 268 Miles

Round trip: 536 miles

$1.50 and 12MPG

$67 in gas round trip

Check out the pictures on this forum and talk to the competitors - I think they will attest to the difficulty of the course and the quality of the event.

http://www.erocc.com

Originally posted by offroadr35
lance thanks for the dollar breakdown, i had no idea those places are that close (i'm new out west). It's more the time aspect that kills me. My rig would get rocked in competitions no matter what cuz i'm 84" wide but i just think it would be fun to give it a shot. To be honest, my driving skills are no where near where they need to be to give me a chance. It's just frustrating for me that there is no easy way to test the water so to speak. Even getting to one event is a big commitment in terms of time and money.

Rich, as far as regulations for the new class, i wish there was a class that allowed larger (maybe up to 40") tires but still not all the trick buggy stuff. It's a shame i get bumped into the unlimited class just cuz my tires are 38.5" in diameter when otherwise my rig is not hugely altered.

-Steve

If you want to wet the water you could try the UROC event in Kremmling July 19-21, its not too far from you in Boulder. Or next year there will be another event like the one last week - an amature event that is mainly just for fun - there could actually be another event like that over labor day if the Hobo's over-summer event is canceled.

Comments from a newbie.

I too am moving to Phoenix in Sept so that I can easily go crawling and possibly compete at some level. I too thought that Phoenix is a good central location to get to most events without too far of a drive and have places to rock crawl in my own backyard, so to speak. I am in a strange position of having retired early from one job and faced with getting another job. Although I would really like a career change that somehow would involve me daily in something to do with rock crawling and Jeeps in particular. But I guess most people on this board are or wish too be also. I went as a spectator to the all the early national events (Hazel’s Las Cruces 98 event, ARCA Farmington 99 event, Hazel’s Johnson Valley 99 event, ARRCA Phoenix 2000 event) and to later events 2001 ARCA Las Cruces and 2001 ARCA Farmington (for all these events I drove from Austin,TX - the land of no rocks - not complaining about the drives). Between 98 and 99 I modified my rig so that there might be a possibility of competing - never really envisioned being competitive though. By the time ARCA Phoenix 2000 came along my rig was clearly not going to even remotely be competitive. So I gave up on that dream. Then CalRocs and UROC came up with the two class system - but since my rear suspension is double shackled and 4-linked and has an AGR Rock Ram I don’t qualify for the Modified Stock Class. I wonder if the rock crawler hood I’m planning won’t be illegal for the Modified Stock Class also since there are no inner fender panels with this setup? Anyway if anybody is interested in what I am talking about in the way of my Jeep they can visit my Member Profile page at the AZVJC website http://www.azvjc.org/ member’s name Dave Shields. I think my rig would be along the lines of the new Sportsman Class.

Anyway so where is all this rambling going?

I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO SEE A SPORTSMAN CLASS ADDED!

I would hope that the rules would incorporate the following since they are so common:
1. Allow up to at least 37” tires
2 . Allow “Rock Ram” type assisted steering
3. Tube fenders in the front
4. No inner front fender panels
5. Wheel base within 4 inches of stock - 84 inch wheelbase rigs like mine get the axles moved a little bit more than 2 inches a lot of times when doing suspension mods.
6. Allowing increased wheel openings for tire clearance. A little Saz-all action.
7. Courses that challenge every wheelbase 82 inch up to whatever - challenge full width and narrow width axles. What we don’t need are challenge’s like RCAA where courses seem to favor 98 inch and up wheelbases.

The sooner the better for starting this class.

I am ready for a Sportsman Class, I’ve even got a supportive wife that would let me compete and likely be my spotter.

Just an observation, but I'm seeing a bunch of folks who'd like to run big tires, but in a class that doesn't allow big mods. Afraid you're probably gonna be SOL. In any form of competition where clearance is an issue (deep mud or rocks for example), big tires provide that clearance. They obviously provide an advantage. So, if you want to run the big-tire class, you're gonna have to run against trucks with big mods. We get the same gripe in mud bogging. Guy with a stock 305 & 44's doesn't like running his slow truck against a Ranger with a 530" roller motor, a 4-link rear, cutout bed, and cut tires. Only way around it is to drop down to the kind of tires he SHOULD be running with that stock 305 so he can get in a lower class.

And I hear all these calls for 37's or larger in this intermediate class when that's the size winning the open class. So, I like Rich's idea for the 35" cutoff. I get the same gripe in my 38.0" class. Guys want to run 38.5's & wonder why I don't just round up. Simple, the 44" class has been won 3 races in a row by guys on 38.5's - Saturday's race was won by a street legal truck! So, if 38.5's are competitive in the 44" class, why would I need a class dedicated to 38.5's? Answer is, I do NOT need it. Same reason Rich doesn't need a 37" class ;)

TEX

Again.....when we put limitations on classes we do it to keep the class as competitive as possible, but still try to include as many pre-built rigs as possible.

If your serious about wanting to compete, and here is no class that your vehicle fits into at this time, you may have to make some mods that allow your vehicle to fit a class. Most of the time these mods would not be to big of a deal, like changing tire size, installing some type of removable inner fender, etc.....I realize wheel base is a big issue and we are considering (in the sportsman class) more leeway there.

But remember if your serious you may need to remod your mods to fit a class......

Rich

Originally posted by TEX


Only problem with the street legal status is that the regs are different everywhere. Shoot, there are 4 completely different emmissions regs within 60 miles of where I now sit as I type. If you're going to require street legal status, you also have to require stuff that the most restrictive states would require. Otherwise, a guy from a non-inspection/non-emmissions state (Arkansas for example) could get away with a lot more than say someone who lives in downtown St. Louis & has to contend with emmissions AND a strict inspection.

TEX

Good point about the differences I hadn't thought that completely out LOL. Anyway the limitations should be of a nature as to avoid people from going around them. Like head light height laws. People just mount them lower etc. Possibley a gear ratio limit. Or a other stupid stuff like must have a spare tire.

Originally posted by Big Rich
Again.....when we put limitations on classes we do it to keep the class as competitive as possible, but still try to include as many pre-built rigs as possible.

If your serious about wanting to compete, and here is no class that your vehicle fits into at this time, you may have to make some mods that allow your vehicle to fit a class. Most of the time these mods would not be to big of a deal, like changing tire size, installing some type of removable inner fender, etc.....I realize wheel base is a big issue and we are considering (in the sportsman class) more leeway there.

But remember if your serious you may need to remod your mods to fit a class......

Rich

I would love to start running in this class rich!! I kept my wheelbase with in the 4" mark, but it moved 3" from stock just with the axle swap and suspension swap.....I like my 37's but if I had to, id switch down to 35's or 36's to run......But There are a whole lot of people running 36's or 37's now days that could fit into this class!
I have kept my body and inner feders....Hell I still have my back seat bolted in!
I changed the important things like the motor, axles, steering...and that kind of stuff....
I am very interested in running this class...Please keep us posted on what happens with this!

I think the sportsman class is a great idea. I think 4" of wheel base and 37" tires is a good start. I'd say stock body (moderately trimmed) and frame should be retained. No rear steer allowed. No portal axles. No forced articulation.

My cut on the class would be to try to involve more people by keeping the costs down. One way to do this is to make it a 'challenge class' (I think thats what they're called). It would be one of those deals where there was a cost limit. Say $12,000. If a competetor thought his competition's rig was over-built, he could put up the 12K and take it home. I think it would be a great way to allow the little guy to compete and would really showcase the driver's ability.

What do ya'll think?

I believe it's called claiming - frequently in the racing I am familiar with you can buy the winning competitors engine for a set price - and as you say this suposedly keeps competitors from sinking mega bucks into their engine.

However, I don't think I'd let my rig go for $12,000. I may be over built as you say.

I would hope claiming is not necessary. Half the fun is building your own rig not buying one and this is what claiming could lead to.

Just my $0.02.

Also keep the standard suspension setup....
No Buggy leafs, double shackles, 1/4 elip, coilovers.......Just a standard leaf or coil suspension setup.

Originally posted by newt

My cut on the class would be to try to involve more people by keeping the costs down. One way to do this is to make it a 'challenge class' (I think thats what they're called). It would be one of those deals where there was a cost limit. Say $12,000. If a competetor thought his competition's rig was over-built, he could put up the 12K and take it home. I think it would be a great way to allow the little guy to compete and would really showcase the driver's ability.

What do ya'll think?

I've enver heard of such a thing. That's sweet. How about we make it $5,000 and apply it to the unlimited class. I really like a few of those buggies :D

A few more times of mine going over backwards and you just might get it for 5k.

Most people posting have shown an intrest in the stock type classes. Glad to see that. Anyone thinking they are taking a very good camping rig to the pro or unlimited classes is crazy. Rich and the rest send you up and over unreal sh!it that can destroys rigs. When you build a comp only rig, that's what you expect can happen. But when you destroy your camping rig...it's not the same.

If there is an event close to you, Spend the 300 bucks and run. The experience is awesome. Just make sure you know what could happen.

see ya,

tony k

Originally posted by TrailKeeper


How about something a little closer? The next ERoCC event is July 26-28 in Jellico, TN.

Atlanta to Jellico 268 Miles

Round trip: 536 miles

$1.50 and 12MPG

$67 in gas round trip

Check out the pictures on this forum and talk to the competitors - I think they will attest to the difficulty of the course and the quality of the event.

http://www.erocc.com

I've made it to farmington but not to TN humm :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: yea i know it don't make since every weekend of those comps I've had prior non changeable plans but the next comp in july that is my plan at least to go watch my rig ain't done yet. Prob wouldn't do to well but he!! i'd be fun

BTT

:D All I have to say is " My time is a-comin' "....... :D

A lot of consideration must be given to tire size and wheel base restrictions ...

The goal is to involve well built rigs ... but not so over built to such an extent that to be competitive there had to have been massive up grading to gain a chance of placing well.
Posts and replies of tire size selection tend to indicate that larger than 35 inches one really must consider custom one ton axels.
It seems to me that general concensis indicates that passing into the 36 inch category is a large step while at the same time many would be competitors would prefer allowing up to a 36 inch limit and I think it's because they know they have a significant advantage over anyone with 35's.
And they also realize thier one ton axels will start acting like anchors with 35's mounted.
Ideally, and hopfully our sport will grow to such an extent there could be three tiered tire catagories ... something like 35 and under, 36 to 37 (37.5?) and then larger.

The long vs. short wheel base issue becomes rather pointless due to the variety of terrains being presented over all and even at the same contest. It is up the to course designers to equal out wheel base advantages one way or another.
Recently while talking to long time ARCA/RRCA coarse designer, Phil Collard, he dispelled the notion that one length/width must have an advantage over another. He said that he knows he's done a good job when the different long, short. narrow, and wide rigged drivers all complain his coarse had given them a disadvantage.
That is why in my opinion wheel base restrictions can actually be unfair to many. Allowing more latitude in this area will actually tend to level the playing field instead. The CJ-5 guys can stretch theirs and on the other side some of the pick-up people might want to shorten thiers ... enabling either to get closer to an ideal all around length. Why penalize either?

I believe power and drive train restrictions are also unfair to some, especially to those who's rigs have inherently weak component sections ... trannies, TCs, etc.
Demanding conformance to OEM Make can help some and hurt others.

The last important subject that I think should be weighed is body chopping.
Light does seem to be right now a daze and those who opt not to retain full floor and panel sections do gain a considerable advantage over others who do not, and even drive thier rigs daily.

Just some humble opinions ... and food for thought.
My only real desire is to hope the current four to six major event promoters conference and draw closer to common guidlines for their class definations. Surely there is a leader among them that could make this happen!

Originally posted by Jaffer
That is why in my opinion wheel base restrictions can actually be unfair to many. Allowing more latitude in this area will actually tend to level the playing field instead. The CJ-5 guys can stretch theirs and on the other side some of the pick-up people might want to shorten thiers ... enabling either to get closer to an ideal all around length. Why penalize either?

Simple, a CJ5 stretched 10" would actually outperform an unstretched CJ7 because it would have better approach & departure angles, not to mention better balance with the engine much farther behind the front axle. This despite the fact that both would have the same wheelbase. That's why a mid-level class would have to be strict on wheelbase. For the same reason, we don't allow wheelbase mods in mud racing until you get at LEAST to the Pro Stock class (where cut tires, NOS, and methanol are all legal).

TEX

Originally posted by Jaffer
Just some humble opinions ... and food for thought.
My only real desire is to hope the current four to six major event promoters conference and draw closer to common guidlines for their class definations. Surely there is a leader among them that could make this happen!

Stay Tuned, don't touch that dial.......It's coming:D :D


Rich Klein
CalROCS

Originally posted by Big Rich


Stay Tuned, don't touch that dial.......It's coming:D :D


Rich Klein
CalROCS

You'll probably NEVER be able to completely agree on everything, especially since even the NUMBER of classes isn't the same in every group. But, if you could at least KIND of standardize a class or two, it would be very helpful.

We try to do the same in mud racing. Many of the "Fast Track" classes that I have with GUMBO are VERY VERY similar to classes NMRO runs. And MMOR recently changed some of their classes to be a lot closer to my rules - not really in an effort to standardize, but just because that's what everyone was building for anyway. Not exactly the same, but very close. And the classes that the folks run down in the Southeast for the most part match up with my rules as well (they have an extra class stuck in there, but those folks are usually quick enough to "bump up" and be competitive). With that in mind, guys can build for the most restrictive set of rules & still be VERY competitive with other groups.

TEX

This is a great thread, fun reading and informative.

I, too, would like to compete as soon as my next phase of mods are done within the next month (f/r 60s, 38.5s, etc.)

I live in a great area with trails aplenty (if it would ever rain!) and close enough to tow to competitions. I realize that with my modifications, I'd likely be in the pro/unlimited/whatever class. That's OK. Just being able to compete would be fun. Also, as Lance alluded to earlier, all you need to do is look around at the events themselves.

While high-dollar tube buggies get a lot of attention for some reason, seems that the lower-budget do-it-yourself rigs are holding their own with solid driving and spotting.

At the end of the day, seems to me this hobby/sport needs to be about the size of your cojones and your skills, and not the size of your wallet. I think we're seeing that happen. I have no doubt that a purpose-built rig like most guys on POR have would do well in any competition, given sufficient driver and spotter skill. Just my thoughts.
Dion

I think the goal is to get more owners into competition? Is the intent to set up a class that the more modified trail rigs can enter, without stepping up to the unlimited class and compete with the purpose-built rock buggys (except with some inexpensive equalization)?

You can look at a class like this two ways: build up a Modified Stock class qualifier, or build down a near Unlimited class trail rig. What does it take to get entrys from both classes? What is the payout if someone makes the switch (or takes a non-conforming trail rig into competition)?

The rules (you asked for suggestions) should allow for a competitor to move up or down a class with minimal cost change, and be a walk-on with a non-competition target built trail rig. Make this a consideration on setting up the rules (in addition to safety).

Allow any wheelbase between 88-108 inches. Limit the tire size to 35's, or limit the free height under the pumkin to 14-inches (or something consistant regardless of tire height under XX-inches). Make a minimum weight limit (2500 pounds or ...). Allow any front steering system, or even rear steer, and mandate a maximum turning radius (for example mandate adjustable stops at a 36-foot radius, something the trails rigs with one-ton axles can accomplish).

Keep the rules simple enough that a rig entry can be easily tested before or after the event. Tailor the rules to use a simple tape measure to qualify entries, and have a scale handy if a claim is lodged for testing after the competition. If you must make a claim rule, make it a DQ rather than the vehicle or a piece of equipment. How many trail rig owners will risk a claim? How many place finishers will be happy with the DQ for "bending" the rules?

Take an Unlimited and apply the weight minimum (with a ballast height, location, and attachment rule to equalize the class). Allow rear steer if it's locked out or they can prove it's use is under the radius limit (DQ if altered in competition). If they want to compete with a detuned Unlimited let them fit 35's (or XX's -- borrow them) and throw in some steering stops. If the pumkins are shaved, enforce the free height limit with the tire height. DQ wheel brake (walking or cutting brake) use in competition.

Take a Modified Stock rig and allow adding simple "improvements" that can be borrowed (or cheap to build up) for a crack at competing with a detuned Unlimited. Same weight minimum, same turning radius. Allow cheap additions for link shackles, moving the axles on the spring perches and shackle reversal (longer or shorter wheelbase) and relocation or removing suspension links. Allow them to size the tire to gain ground clearance (free height under the pig). A dedicated Modified Stock owner will make sure the modifications can revert back to legal status.

Make the rules loose enough for a misfit trail rig to compete. Same limits on pumpkin height, turning radius, brake and steering use DQ rules. The D60 under a Toyo will be anchors on 35's, as will a stretched CJ with 38's and the budget builder 14-bolt (exploiting the free height rule), but the Samauri with steering stops and D44's will be limited as well (as will the Unlimited rock buggy).

Each driver will have a chance to compete, with flaws and advantages. This result may be more of a drivers class than builders class.

If someone cannot pony up the entry, or borrow/buy tires to exploit the rule limits, then they need realize competition is not cheap. Every $$$$ spent on the rig to prepare for competition needs to a budget match in rooms/meals/transport costs during a weekend of competition. Competition, even near home, is not cheap. A shot at besting the tour participants has a price (put up or shut up).

Invite some deep pocket friends (allow one spotter at a time, with a maximum of two spotter changes to help gain paid participation).

Hit up the local 4x4 store as a one-time sponsor (allow leeway for mag signs or stickers on trail oriented entries).

Offer an organized side-pool for the misfit trail rig owners with 100% payback to the highest place entry (limited to rigs that are based within 300 miles of the event and have not been in a competition class the prior none months).

Get a sponsor for matching the side-pool payout (someone National who will benefit from the exposure supporting new competitors, and/or someone Local to each event who can exploit the best local entry placing).

Someone out there has to have more ideas?

Happy Trails!

So are you suggesting that "CJ-5" types must stretch their wheelbase by 4 to 6" to compete in this class? What about Sami's? How do you arrive at the 88-108'" wheelbase limit for the class?

Good idea for the max differential clearance as it would eliminate the tire size issue.

Originally posted by nobody20
So are you suggesting that "CJ-5" types must stretch their wheelbase by 4 to 6" to compete in this class? What about Sami's? How do you arrive at the 88-108'" wheelbase limit for the class?


How many built CJ5's are under 88"? 84"? Give the man an answer you can live with. This ain't the final rule, just a suggestion -- what is your suggestion? What is required to allow a typical locally owned and built modified Sami, Flatfender, or CJ5 in competition?

Happy Trails!

I have a zuk....My wheel base is 82"....I had to strech that from the stock 78! I do have D44's with 37's but with my full bodied rig do not see running with the top dogs here..........But I do have a standard suspension setup (no shackle reversal, no double shackles).................So where would my rig fit into this?

you would be in with the big boyz. i have been building a rig for pro rocks, just to check it out. i will never have the time to get serious with it. i work 50 hrs a week regular and have three kids and a wife that expect some of my time also. but after watching the pro rocks comp, i belive we could have had a shot. the biggest problem i saw was poor spoting. i watched lance and a few others work there ass off building ramps to get these rigs to go up stuff that was all but impossible to climb. and many others telling the driver to hit it, when there was no way in hell that they were going to make it with out some rock stacking. i don't belive it has got to a point where i guy could not build a 5k rig and go kick some ass. i watched some monster high dollar rig get spanked on some stuff that some low buck rigs kicked it on. if you are going to compete get a real spotter someone who knows what it take to get up some thing, not some dumb ass that tells you to hit it when your diff is pushing a 5k boulder. mike

B TT

i really think if one is wanting to compete, he/she we build there rig accordingly to the class they choose to enter...... im sure this feedback is good in determining which type of class's are wanted and will have high entrants.... but if you really want to compete you will build a rig to match one of these class's....

my rig is currently in the unlimited only due to tire height...... i had a choice to go down in tire size and run legend..... instead i chose a complete rebuild better suited for unlimited....(not the best. better)

Rich,

How much are you thinking about an entrance fee for this sportsman class? I know nothing is set in stone, but many of us are very interested in participating in this class. And I'd say that many of us aren't going to pony up $200 to do it. So lets hear it guys. If you are thinking about competing, would you compete for $200? I'd probably go as high as $75. Post up!

Also, Rich, buddy. Let's make it a 37" tire. If I put 35" tires on there I'd have to put hydraulics on the front so I can bounce my front end down the cruise and get gold spoked rims!

-Jack

Originally posted by RudeZuk
Also keep the standard suspension setup....
No Buggy leafs, double shackles, 1/4 elip, coilovers.......Just a standard leaf or coil suspension setup.

I dont like this idea

If Tom LeBlanc aka Capt. America can make it to these events as well as be extremely competitive....Anyone can!!

Originally posted by xextr3m3


I dont like this idea

WHy not?? This would keep the sportsman class a little more competative!

Remember the smaller the entry fee the smaller the payout.

sportmans class would run the same course as modified stock, so 35" will be the tire size.

Suspension types would open up because we already have a stock class.

Rich

Originally posted by Big Rich
Remember the smaller the entry fee the smaller the payout.

Rich

Rich, I kinda think the type of guys that would be running the sportsman class don't care AS much about the payout. I would think that class would consist of guys like me that would be doing it for fun, and I'll tell you right now, Mama would not be down for me spending 300 on entry alone.;)

I hear ya....that might also encourage the big dogs from running in the class.

Rich

Originally posted by Big Rich


Ron how far away is Paragon Adventure park in Pennslyania.

Sept 7-8 2002

Rich

I'm making the drive for that competition, so if your closer theres no excuses.

Rich, you are DRIVING from CA to PA?? I hope you are dragging your rig, because that is a BEATING of a drive just to watch :eek:

rich, anyone else from out west commin over to compete? i just might show up there....

Jeff Knoll, has addressed some of the issues that are being voiced here in his vision of rockcrawling, CRCA.


http://www.californiarockcrawlersassociation.com/C_R_C_A_/New_Rules/new_rules.htm


If you do not want to or don't think that you can compete at the professional level of the sport, a stock class, would be a great place to start. If you want to run the vehicle that you have been building or built, but do not have the funds to support a run for the title, then sportsman would suffice. I like the possibility of three classes. A moderator would be necessary to avoid 'cherry picking.'