Today the USFS came out with their Closure Orders.

The Summary is:

1. A one-year closure of Lower Trail 2 (from the intersection with Road 420 west to Road 402), Trail 7, a portion of Trail 8 (from the intersection with Trail 9 to the intersection with Trail 10A), and Trail 9 in the Upper Tellico OHV area which prohibits operating motor vehicles on these trails during the closure period and sets penalties for violating the provisions of this Order.

2. A seasonal closure of the Upper Tellico OHV Area which prohibits operating motor vehicles on trails within the Area during the period between January 1 and March 31 each year and sets penalties for violating the provisions of this Order.

SFWDA in cooperation with UFWDA and BlueRibbon is evaluating these orders and will be responding accordingly.

Go to this thread for the whole document text: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=604044

that's f'ing fantastic. I have got to get my truck running this weekend and ride before it closes on the 1st.

What really bums me out is that when no one rides those trails then the sediment load will decrease and thus prove their point like they've tried to preach for the entirety of this. I hate to be the wet blanket but unless everyone continues to go to Tellico and ride after the 31st of March then I foresee the whole joint getting closed. I can't believe that the USFS would make a decision like this after all the years of hard work that's been put in to help the area.

What's the response going to be from UFWDA and SFWDA? Will it take over a month like it did before?

edit: From the SFWDA website:

...Public involvement began on September 17, 2007 when a letter was mailed and emailed to groups and individuals known to be interested in management of the Upper Tellico OHV Area. The “scoping letter” requested comments on the proposed Forest Supervisor’s Orders. As a result, approximately 200 responses from individuals, groups, organizations and other government agencies were delivered to us by mail, emailed, phoned in or by personal visit to the District office. These responses conveyed numerous issues, and are summarized in the Response to Public Comments, in the project file.
Additionally, approximately 700 form letters were received by email from those people who supported any and all closures of the trail system. And approximately 400 form letters were received from people who favored trail repairs and reroutes, but not trail closures.
In the 30 day scoping period that began on September 17 newspaper articles were published in the Asheville Citizen-Times, The Cherokee Scout, and the Clay County Progress...

You mean to tell me all they got from us was 400 letters and those dipshit fishheads produced almost twice as much? that is embarassing and I hope I'm wrong. As many people that visit this site each day and did not write should be ashamed. United we stand, divided we load our shit up and go wheel a private park for $75 a day 5 hours away. Awesome.

What really bums me out is that when no one rides those trails then the sediment load will decrease and thus prove their point like they've tried to preach for the entirety of this.

BUT if the sediment load is from natural conditions what better way to prove our point.

that's f'ing fantastic. I have got to get my truck running this weekend and ride before it closes on the 1st.

What really bums me out is that when no one rides those trails then the sediment load will decrease and thus prove their point like they've tried to preach for the entirety of this. I hate to be the wet blanket but unless everyone continues to go to Tellico and ride after the 31st of March then I foresee the whole joint getting closed. I can't believe that the USFS would make a decision like this after all the years of hard work that's been put in to help the area.

What's the response going to be from UFWDA and SFWDA? Will it take over a month like it did before?

edit: From the SFWDA website:

...Public involvement began on September 17, 2007 when a letter was mailed and emailed to groups and individuals known to be interested in management of the Upper Tellico OHV Area. The “scoping letter” requested comments on the proposed Forest Supervisor’s Orders. As a result, approximately 200 responses from individuals, groups, organizations and other government agencies were delivered to us by mail, emailed, phoned in or by personal visit to the District office. These responses conveyed numerous issues, and are summarized in the Response to Public Comments, in the project file.
Additionally, approximately 700 form letters were received by email from those people who supported any and all closures of the trail system. And approximately 400 form letters were received from people who favored trail repairs and reroutes, but not trail closures.
In the 30 day scoping period that began on September 17 newspaper articles were published in the Asheville Citizen-Times, The Cherokee Scout, and the Clay County Progress...

You mean to tell me all they got from us was 400 letters and those dipshit fishheads produced almost twice as much? that is embarassing and I hope I'm wrong. As many people that visit this site each day and did not write should be ashamed. United we stand, divided we load our shit up and go wheel a private park for $75 a day 5 hours away. Awesome.


100% correct, it is fucking sad we couldnt produce more than 400 emails, when we have a thread in this forum with over 6000 views concerning tellico closures. :shaking:

This will NEVER be a good outcome for us, it will only snowball from here, they got what they wanted to start with, they have their foot in the door, and from what I have read on other closures that is how it always starts out.

I say we all should go buy a TN/NC trout stamp and fish the fuck out of Tellico and anyone you see fishing you should say, Yeah I used to use the OHV to wheel but since they closed that down we figured we loved this area so much we would take up fishing, it will be so fucking overcrowded, trashy, and I have never seen a fucking fly fisherman doing a tellico clean up anywhere along those streams.

Sorry for the rant, guess more I type the more it starts bothering me. :mad3:

Someone post up the email address where we are supposed to send our objections. I signed the online petition and Im willing to do whatever nessecary to keep them from closing it completely, as im sure most PBBer's would be if the info on how to go about it was a little easier to find.

How public are the studies that are being conducted? How objective (fair) are the sampling criteria? I guess what I mean is, are we getting rail-roaded here by people shaping the testing to get the results they want? Take for instance the silt content of the river after a prolonged hard rain on a busy weekend, is that being compared to a similar rain event during the closure? Are samples being taken over several days and averaged, is rainfall over the testing interval being taken into account? Or is it as bad as comparing the silt content of the river during dixie run after a rain to that of any day they please, say after a period of no activity and no rainfall and calling the two equal? Has anyone from "our side" considered an independent study?

I still can't believe they only received 400 letters from us. I wrote one and between here and my local board alone we should have surpassed those numbers! I will still continue to ride up there as long as its available, but that may not be much longer if this continues. So did SELC drop the lawsuit becuase of these changes?

i sent a letter for every member of my family...BUT in those letters i did put that i was ok with seasonal closures, as long as no trails are permanately closed.. i wonder if b/c i put that, if my letters got lumped into the 700 that were favoring closures

i sent a letter for every member of my family...BUT in those letters i did put that i was ok with seasonal closures, as long as no trails are permanately closed.. i wonder if b/c i put that, if my letters got lumped into the 700 that were favoring closures

I agree. Those numbers sound like bullshit. I'd like to know they categorized them. That and I always wondered if they actually counted the letters that where done with some online template for those that couldn't write a simple letter. Wonder if a spam filter would nab those.

too little.... too late....

the hand started writing on the wall long ago.... now it's about finished.

Don't be naive. The USFS knew what they were going to have to do and actions were more than likely in place before you all were even asked to write letters. It doesn't matter if they received 10,972,045 letters, it would still result in the same action.

Just FYI, I spoke with a woman at the ranger district and she says this is IMMEDIATE. They are now in the process of blocking these trails. If you had planned to run Tellico this weekend, it may be too late. I also heard from a source that they saw the guardrails already up there on the sides of the trails so that kind of confirms the immediate action. This is a sad day for us and the numbers may be bullshit but the decision has been made.

Looks like Morris Mountain this weekend and for a long time to come (badass park btw). I'll take my money and spend it elsewhere. At least I know it'll be put to good use.

hgtd

I also heard from a source that they saw the guardrails already up there on the sides of the trails so that kind of confirms the immediate action. This is a sad day for us and the numbers may be bullshit but the decision has been made.

I've been to tellico 11 weekends this year. The blocking rails have been laying in the woods beside the posts since they opened the trails back up in March.

We are taking my buddy's Ranger that we just finished next weekend (29th).

These responses conveyed numerous issues, and are summarized in the Response to Public Comments, in the project file.
Additionally, approximately 700 form letters were received by email from those people who supported any and all closures of the trail system. And approximately 400 form letters were received from people who favored trail repairs and reroutes, but not trail closures.


OK, the email I sent and the typed letter I sent don't fit into either of their tidy categories and neither of them were fawking form letters. :mad3: Do those not warrant consideration since they present unique thoughts and ideas that don't fit their agenda?

Mine wasn't either but they used some tid bit that they could use to fill space that didn't have to do with the forest but with the local economy. Since it was in my letter I guess it's fair game.

I don't think those numbers are correct. After the cut off date and before they were all counted, I personally went to the FS office and Rick showed me the pile of letters, (we had much more.)
Rick at FS said someone from TU computer grab email names and sent them in one bulk. However, Rick said they would only count them as one.

EVERYONE, please don't give up on TELLICO.
We (sfwda.org) Rescue Tellico committee are on it. They don't say a lot on the website as we don't want the bad guys in on it.
I can say, you need to go on SFWDA.org use the FOURM, they want to hear from you. It motivates them.
nLets get not give up!:D
Heather Spivey is doing a great job on Fourms with good information.

Chuck and I (Helen) want to Thank everyone for your support in the past and in the Future.
Merry Christmas

Chuck, Helen & Beach Davis
www.tellicocabins.com

Chuck/Helen, can you confirm that lower 2, 7, and 9 are closed?

I can also tell you that SFWDA, UFWDA & BRC are working this as we speak.
We will pass out info on what is needed as soon as possible.

We are not going to give up on Tellico.

Please be patient, and I would say, do not beat up the Forest Service too bad, but that won't happen.

Todd

I just got off the phone with the actual ranger not the receptionist. He assured me the ENTIRE park (except for that small portion of 8 where the bridge is down) is open and will remain open until January 1st at which point the new closures will go into effect. I said I’m coming a long ways to ride and if I get there and 2,7, and 9 are closed I’ll be hot and he said bring it on and ride it’ll be open. We’re going this weekend baby!

Sure is sad that this is gonna happen

All trails except the small portion of 8 will be open until Jan 1st, 08.

Yesterday, the receptionist was giving wrong info and she is now giving correct info.
If we see any different I will post it.
Helen
Tellico Cabins:bawling:

Helen and Chuck I want to say thank you for supporting Tellico and us for many years and we are not giving up on Tellico and supporting. Please let us know when and where we need to support, give money, write letters etc. Thank you

And to all you people who did not write letters you deserve to never ride Tellico AGAIN. What did you expect was gonna happen. We have to ACT when things like this happen. NOW go support SWFDA and donate write letters and see what they can do but it will be a WHOLE YEAR before anything will happen. You happy now being that LAZY PERSON YOU ARE!!!!!! Thanks for nothing you 6000people that view this everyday and did NOTHING to help and now just go run these trails 1 more time and wait until 2009 to run them again.:flipoff2::flipoff2:

Helen and Chuck I want to say thank you for supporting Tellico and us for many years and we are not giving up on Tellico and supporting. Please let us know when and where we need to support, give money, write letters etc. Thank you

And to all you people who did not write letters you deserve to never ride Tellico AGAIN. What did you expect was gonna happen. We have to ACT when things like this happen. NOW go support SWFDA and donate write letters and see what they can do but it will be a WHOLE YEAR before anything will happen. You happy now being that LAZY PERSON YOU ARE!!!!!! Thanks for nothing you 6000people that view this everyday and did NOTHING to help and now just go run these trails 1 more time and wait until 2009 to run them again.:flipoff2::flipoff2:
Amen

ahhh, but private parks are not the answer. Riverside County in So Cal is trying to ban OHV use on private property. And they passed an ordinance to do so.
Don't give the greenies too much credit, they sit people down and have them post form letters. 500 xerox copies of the same letter with different signatures should count as one letter.

That sucks in a big way. I agree with the others that once the Forest Service had it on thier agenda, we were screwed. I also think they are full of sh!t about us only having 400 letters. These fawking tree huggers are such hipocrites anyway and most of them are city dwelling pussies who don't have the slightest clue about consevation, etc. because they rarely leave their concrete jungle. F-them!:flipoff2::flipoff2::flipoff2:

Atlanta K5er,
Your frustration is noted, but I think your choice of term to express it might be excessive in a public forum.

boy that sucks. i am glad we went on that last ride there. probably one of the best tellico rides we have been on. that is the way i will remeber the place.

hellan, i would screen your renters and if the are fisherman i would fawk them on there rates

Merry Christmas Ya'll
Don't give up on Tellico!
We will win.
Love to ya'll
Helen Tellico Cabins

we will be at our SLICK ROCk Off- Road shop this weekend. U are always welcome to stop by Tellico Cabins ,go up asphalt driveway to shop or up to house, before we close for a long winters nap.:mad3:

PS we will be open for Trout Unlimited guest for 2,000.00 per night:flipoff2:

PS we will be open for Trout Unlimited guest for 2,000.00 per night:flipoff2:

Bingo. Call it an "impact fee".

By the way, to you guys or anybody else in the area, some pics of fishermen and their garbage they leave on the streambanks might be nice to have on hand as the fight continues. :mad3:

By the way, to you guys or anybody else in the area, some pics of fishermen and their garbage they leave on the streambanks might be nice to have on hand as the fight continues. :mad3:

Find some pics of the millions miles of fishing line they leave behind on tree's and stream banks?
Who picks this up? We do on cleanup weekends!

Todd

you bet ,opening day fishing on the Tellico River I will be there. Hope I can find a parking spot around all them parked on the banks causing eroision. If anyone has some pics send them my way.
I also need clip art and photo of family off roading in jeep or ect...
Thanks
Helen

ahhh, but private parks are not the answer. Riverside County in So Cal is trying to ban OHV use on private property. And they passed an ordinance to do so.
Don't give the greenies too much credit, they sit people down and have them post form letters. 500 xerox copies of the same letter with different signatures should count as one letter.

if that actually works why dont we do it someone create a nice letter on here and we all download it print it sign it and send it in if it works for them its gotta work for us?

we also need to make sure the fisher persons and horse riders need to learn how to pack it in and pack it out .i cant count how many road apples i have ran over on all the roads around tellico and how bad it stinks at all the free camping sites because of all the horse s**t crap and you know that the bikers and fisherman and horse riders are not going to pay for anything .so when the motorized offroad vehicles are not coming to the park who will be supporting the busnesses in and around the area .i would hate to see people losing their means of making a living . because of tree huggers and high paied lawyers

when is the opening day of fishing "season" there? is there a big boom? what if we took this took this out of the court and bull shit system and just voiced our concern. what if we gathered 500 people and just waded up and down the damn river? a couple of questions... is there any laws against it? can a "march" be done and have a maximum aggravation impact without a physical altercation (on our part) and how long could this be kept up to really get them all stirred up?. kayak maybe? can you kayak there... legally? how many folks do that? i know it pisses me off when i fish to have a damn jet ski buzzing around... i bet that would be similar.

it probably wouldnt work because most of the fisher persons at tellico river dont know anything about the trail closure and they dont care .alot of the fisherman are just people wanting to go to the park to get away .so all a protest or march would do is just give the greenies more feul for their case .but i do like the thought

We are planning on Meeting in Murphy the first Saturday of April.
Form a parade to town then out to Tellico.
Close the day with a pot luck.
I will post details soon.
Helen

it probably wouldnt work because most of the fisher persons at tellico river dont know anything about the trail closure and they dont care .alot of the fisherman are just people wanting to go to the park to get away .so all a protest or march would do is just give the greenies more feul for their case .but i do like the thought

Actually won't they gate everything but trail 1? If so they cant get in to trail 5 to fish so they are locked out as well except along the fish hatchery.

when is the opening day of fishing "season" there? is there a big boom? what if we took this took this out of the court and bull shit system and just voiced our concern. what if we gathered 500 people and just waded up and down the damn river? a couple of questions... is there any laws against it? can a "march" be done and have a maximum aggravation impact without a physical altercation (on our part) and how long could this be kept up to really get them all stirred up?. kayak maybe? can you kayak there... legally? how many folks do that? i know it pisses me off when i fish to have a damn jet ski buzzing around... i bet that would be similar.

All you mentioned would be pointless and a waste of effort. What needs to happen is the USFS needs a solid plan together that will appease everyone involved, including nature. As I am an avid supporter of Tellico, if this situation was one sided (read: in this case, only looking out for the Off-Roaders concerns), nature would be out of balance and we all know.........................Balance is good. I understand people don't want Tellico to get shut down, but sometimes we don't always get what we want. Justice will prevail and hopefully it will benefit everyone/everything, including the brook trout and us wheelers as well. I absolutely LOVE having a very short drive to one of the best wheeling spots in the country.

A couple of questions, as I have never been here to Tellico?

How many creek crossings are there?

How close are some of the trails to the main creek that has TU up in arms?
If the trails have a downhill slant, what can be done to slow the water down, and decrease any sentiment of getting into the creeks?
On the rubicon, we have used rocks, other natural fauna (tree limbs, and other natural forest vegitation) to slow down the water, and stop the sentiment from getting into the creeks.
Then if something else needs to be used, straw or hay can be used to stop the sentiment, but this is not normally natural to the area.

I know a lot of work has been done at Tellico by Southern and their members to maintain trails. This is good work that has to continue, and be documented for the local media.

We at UFWDA are working this issue, and will keep everyone informed.

Todd

you bet ,opening day fishing on the Tellico River I will be there. Hope I can find a parking spot around all them parked on the banks causing eroision. If anyone has some pics send them my way.
I also need clip art and photo of family off roading in jeep or ect...
Thanks
Helen

Let us know more details once they arise, Helen. Our club will definitely be in attendance

A couple of questions, as I have never been here to Tellico?

I'll try to answer, but might not know all the details.

How many creek crossings are there?

A lot. But maybe more significante ecologically is that the area is in the headwaters of the Tellico River. The concern is that all the little tributaries that make up the Tellico River have elevated suspended sediments (turbidity) and so will the River.

How close are some of the trails to the main creek that has TU up in arms?

Trail 1 is only about 10 feet in some areas. But that's the one that they are leaving open because it's the only "road" out there. Others are within 100 feet. Interesting though, I believe that the trails that they have closed are perpendicular to the slope of the hills, and have not been proven scientifically to be the source of turbidity.

If the trails have a downhill slant, what can be done to slow the water down, and decrease any sentiment of getting into the creeks?

We use silt traps, contourning, rock rip rap breaks, etc. We also seed the side slopes and use mulch to help stop the water. The problem here is that the USFS has not done THEIR required maintenence in the area for YEARS. They call it "deferred maintenance" and claim they don't have any money to complete what needs to be done. But we don't understand how that's possible since they should have plenty of money for the area from the fee tubes and from grants they can get from RTP funds.

We at UFWDA are working this issue, and will keep everyone informed.

Todd, we (SFWDA) certainly appreciate all the help from UFWDA and have engaged your attorney in this effort. We will continue to examine our options regarding these closures and hope to have a strategy at the end of January or in early February.

I love wheeling Tellico. I also like to fly around the Smokies on a clear day. I wonder how hard it would be to get some pictures from an eye in the sky of the massive cluster @#$% that might happen on opening day? Cars on banks, dorks splashing around to catch a fish.

Maybe it would show a little hipocracy from the TU side?

Would that help our cause?

How public are the studies that are being conducted? How objective (fair) are the sampling criteria? I guess what I mean is, are we getting rail-roaded here by people shaping the testing to get the results they want? Take for instance the silt content of the river after a prolonged hard rain on a busy weekend, is that being compared to a similar rain event during the closure? Are samples being taken over several days and averaged, is rainfall over the testing interval being taken into account? Or is it as bad as comparing the silt content of the river during dixie run after a rain to that of any day they please, say after a period of no activity and no rainfall and calling the two equal? Has anyone from "our side" considered an independent study?

I smell STATISTICS. How about the standard deviation? :D

I do agree though, testing can be fudged and fucked with in so many ways, lets just hope the lawyers, reps, or whoever from the UFWDA knows how to seperate fact from fiction.

Ok Heather,

If they are claiming no money for the required repairs, then where is the fee money going? It would be interesting for someone who is knowledgeable about the number of people who use the trails to estimate the amount of fees that were collected last year. Is the budget public record and if so it would be interesting to see what funds were alocated verses what funds were spent on repairs. I ain't no lawyer but sounds like this could be a leverage point.

Also has the idea of silt screens like on highway projects been researched?

Which congressmen or senators that sit on the USDA oversight comittee or whatever can we contact with emails, letters.

I also envision taking up flyfishing in the Rodney Dangerfield character in Caddy Shack fasion.

Ok Heather,

If they are claiming no money for the required repairs, then where is the fee money going? It would be interesting for someone who is knowledgeable about the number of people who use the trails to estimate the amount of fees that were collected last year. Is the budget public record and if so it would be interesting to see what funds were alocated verses what funds were spent on repairs. I ain't no lawyer but sounds like this could be a leverage point.

I ain't no lawyer either, but I think you hit the nail on the head here. And believe me, we're looking into this one. Very interesting isn't it. TU claims the use numbers are off the charts...TU says that 2400 vehicles visit the area a month. While not accurate in the least, let's use it for argument's sake. So follow my math here: 2400 vehicles X $10 per vehicle X 12 months = $288,000. Now, granted, the fee's went up last year so that's only last year's number. Plus there are annual passes for $60 that some vehicles have. But still, that's a lot of fee tube money. Interesting.


Also has the idea of silt screens like on highway projects been researched?

Yes, but they are temporary in nature, so we have been trying to find ways to provide more permanent solutions. Remember, we (SFWDA and member clubs) have been the only ones up there doing maintenance and we can only do what the FS will let us do. They don't hold up their end of the bargain, and then they hamstring us with lack of supplies and their "deferred maintenance."

Which congressmen or senators that sit on the USDA oversight comittee or whatever can we contact with emails, letters.

I honestly don't know, but it's NATIONAL FOREST. So at the very least, write to your elected officials and let them know how you feel.

As a lifelong hiker, hunter, fisherman and offroader, This current battle with the USFS is the same only different from all the other battles we as American citizens get involved in no matter what our intrests. My off road vehicle of the past several years is a two wheel drive buggy VW based. USFS gave me the big green one in 2004 at Tellico. I remember at the time many offroaders posted in various boards good riddance all buggy riders are a**holes and other deeply intellectual observances. I still support the current fight even though I am no longer affected. The reason why is divide and conquer. I am a taxpaying American and the national parks are for everyone. Think of it this way If I am out hiking at Tellico, most offroaders will think Treehugger at first sight. If observed by a yuppy while trailering my buggy to a OHV park I am a redneck beerdrinking destroyer of all that is natural and good. My biggest grip about the national parks are horses, But rest assured I will walk through clouds of green flies while wading horse *hit knee deep and never complain. Even while most horseback riders that see me on a mountain bike think of me as the anti-christ of the national park. There are too many places in my lifetime that were open to eveyone and one group hated another group and started restrictions only to see themselves restricted later on. So instead of infighting with other groups join together. The national parks belong to every American not just the group with the loudest voice and most money although it seems that way. Rant off

very well put

maybe you should post that on TU's site

I have a couple of quick answers here:
Todd there is only 1"stream crossing" all of the others are bridged. The one that is left is due to be bridged soon. The NOI from SELC states that there are at least 19 stream crossings. This is extremely deceptive since all but one are bridged or run in culverts.I guess that there is no point in letting the truth get in the way of a good story.
" Opening Day" for fishing season is March 21. This is on the Tennessee side of the border. Many people don't seem to realize that there are two states here ( the trails are in North Carolina). North Carolina does not stock fish in the OHV area.In my experience 99%+ of the fishermen on the Tellico are not TU members. Most of our clientel over here are sterotyped as corn-dunkers and worm drowners. They seem to be classed much the same as off-roaders are (drunk, dumba**ed rednecks)by a lot of the greenies. I really don't think protesting to these is going to get us anywhere.

....There are too many places in my lifetime that were open to eveyone and one group hated another group and started restrictions only to see themselves restricted later on. So instead of infighting with other groups, join together. The national parks belong to every American not just the group with the loudest voice and most money although it seems that way. Rant off.

Agreed! Very thoughtful, respectful and tactful; Most of all - TRUE! If we all join forces, we'd be unstoppable in our efforts.

Agreed! Very thoughtful, respectful and tactful; Most of all - TRUE! If we all join forces, we'd be unstoppable in out efforts.

... and unfortunitly that is where it will fail... i am a huge deer hunter, but if i did not think it would snowball i would be the first in line to sign a petition to outlaw dog hunting... next time you are in a line at your favorite obsticale and a bunch of atv's go buzzing by and as the dust starts to clear you think it would be great to have them gone... or if you are fishing and minding your own buissnes and a jet ski goes blasting by doing death circles you think they should get rid of them... on and on and on... and the kicker is the greenies know this. who will sign the "lets get rid of the trout fisherman" first? now the 4wd community is on there side to get payback.

You have completely missed the point. What you just said is what is happening to us now. The treehuggers don't like hunters, offroaders, fishermen, mountainbikers, loggers, miners and just about anyone that they have to share their beloved outdoors with. For God himself has appointed only them to enjoy the outdoors. Seriously, the goverment could give a fat rats azz about any of the groups mentioned with the exception of loggers and miners cause they can sell off trees and minerals to them. So what if I am one of Gods own treehugging zealots and I want to drive all the aformentioned folks off PUBLIC lands? First I would get the fishermen to rail against the offroaders. Then pick another partner and attack another group and so on and sooner or later guess who's left?

i have said that in other posts... together we stand devided we fall... kinda like america itself. the hippies or tree huggers get the lawyers to turn one group into the bad guy then they are out. well the outted group will be the first to turn on the offinsive group when they are the new bad guy. my last post was just saying how the wheelers are so devided right now i do not see how we can unite enough to fight off the hippies.

i hope things will work out, i love to ride over there. every time some thing gets a little over populated and little dirt gets moved around, they have a shit fit. they mite need to really think about it and see how much money comes in, for auto parts stores, motels, restruants,walmart,gas stations. they get the picture i hope to come over ror the meeting i am swamp with work right now. if i dont some body really let them know what will be missed if they care for there communty.