well, it has been discused around many a camp fire, and for me is a question i will have to address in the coming days...

MANUAL OR AUTOMATIC???

you see, the aa adapters are within 20 bucks of each other (adapting v8 to lc 4spd and th350 to lc transfer). I just recieved my van two days ago, and went to look at it yesterday. turns out it has a th350 which brings up the manual or auto question. they both have a final ratio of 1 to 1 which makes it a question of preference.

So, what do you guys think, and what do you like better, and why????

please help, this is an important upgrade for me and i would like it to be painless!

tia,
Max

Max,

Lots of folks running automatics, so you should get some decent feedback. Mainly curious about folks comments who HAD a sm420 behind a 350... then went to an automatic. Usually I hear of a 2F/420 combo being yanked, replaced my a 350/Automatic... makes a direct comparision difficult.

Final ratio of 1:1 makes no difference for a trail rig. How often are you in 4th gear? The Automatic typically has a 2:1 torque convertor, with a 2.7 first gear... giving an "effective 5.4" first gear for crawling.

My biggest concern with an automatic is engine braking. I just like being able to lightly apply brakes *using the stock manual gearbox* on a downhill section, with that old 2F at 200 rpm. Nice and slow. Always amazed it doesn't stall, but even if it does I can tap the starter, while in gear, and just continue on.

Tom :usa:

Final ratio of 1:1 makes no difference for a trail rig.
ah, but it is important for a 16 year olds' daily driver! :D

yes, this will be my daily driver, so the 1 to 1 does play a part (i will have to do highway speed and am thinking of going to 3.73 r&p...)

and im not to worried about engine braking, look at my location--not many mountains around here!!

Max

If you plan on wheeling your rig on anything but fire roads and mud, you are going to need some gearing.

The Toy 4 speed will not get you what you want there, that is for sure.

As Tom said, the T350 has a 2.1 torque converter that essentially doubles the gear you are in in an automatic when you load it up.

I Like the auto for control off road. I have 2 feet and my manual had 3 pedals. Easy to deal with unless you are on a 45* angle and your spotter wants you to stop and move over 2 feet....

I will give you a full review once Kate is up and running. If you decide to go to the T350, I know where a used T350 to 3 speed case adapter is for cheap.

Max,

If it is a daily driver, and you are 16... KEEP THE 2F and stock tranny. Seriously you should be able to find a decent 2F for next to free, and just run it.

Years back I ran a Pro Rally car in "stock class" it was my DAILY DRIVER! Dead stock drivetrain, modified the suspension with "nismo safari springs, bilstien shocks, etc". Full skid plate. I would run an event every month, sleep on somenes hotel floor, and just show up and have a great time. Ahem, my comp license seemed to have stated I was 18 when I was 16 at the time (6'2" 240# full beard... never got questioned!).

Meanwhile my brother started to build up a "spec rally racer" with all the trick parts, full competition stuff, really tricked out... and could not afford to compete! He finally did run one event, and was totally pissed that I could beat his times! Difference was the experience, but funny as he was a much more competitive person and a better driver (personally I had more fun BUILDING the cars).

Sounds odd, but keep the grades up... go to college, and find something you really enjoy in life... do all that AND still have fun wheeling on the weekends. Uh, I got sucked into the dark side, starting build RACE cars full time, working full time, going to school full time... burning the candles at both ends, and managed to crash and burn and nearly get tossed out of school in a big way. So keeping a cruiser fairly stock, having fun, and just saving your money is a good way to go. :)

Mean while, if you can take some high school welding and machining classes, do so! Sadly lots of the local high schools have scrapped their programs to "reduce liability and prevent a student from getting hurt". Pet peeve as there are lots of students who probably learned more in shop class than the rest of the school, and we need those trades! Not everyone becomes a lawyer, doctor, or proffessor! We still need lots of skilled folks who know how to work with their hands. Irony, I'm an electronic engineer, but have had fun designing and building "fixtures" for our lab! Ya, I still love to play with metal... but find bios coding to pay the bills a little better. <grin>

Opps... too much coffee this morning, totally wired and have my shop torn apart (getting ready to move everything)... so I can't work on the vehicle or do much until the new shop is built!

If you have 4.11's, you should be able to "trade" for a set of 3.7's out of later cruiser. HINT go with the fine spline shafts! My '79 FJ40 is a "fun driver/moderate off road"... tub is way to clean to trash, but I have 3.7's and 33" tires. Decent street vehicle, yes
I have power steering and brakes that WORK Great!

Now back to Manual vs. Automatic....

Tom :usa:

Originally posted by roundrocktom


If you have 4.11's, you should be able to "trade" for a set of 3.7's out of later cruiser. HINT go with the fine spline shafts!
Now back to Manual vs. Automatic....

Tom :usa:

Disregard the above information Max, :rolleyes:

(Damn Tom, he has to drive his Cruiser, but come on!)

Originally posted by roundrocktom
If it is a daily driver, and you are 16... KEEP THE 2F and stock tranny. Seriously you should be able to find a decent 2F for next to free, and just run it.
Sorry tom, but NO! :D :D :D

after riding in two cruisers and 1 j**p with v8's, i am going to have to say no! lol

the reason being, i got an entire van for 200 bucks!! so it wasnt that expensive. plus i make over 500 a month cutting lawn and over 300 a month baggin groceries! so im pretty set for cash. :D as of now im looking at the auto tranny...nolen i will let you know if i can use the adapter--my 74 has the drivetrain from a 76 in it and i have to call the po and see if the tcase is original...

btw, is there any way i can tell by looking at it--i wont be able to see it for about two weeks (stored up north) but if i can tell by looking i will.

thanks for the replys and keep em coming!!!

hey nolen, maybe i will keep the 4.11's if i find out i have a 4spd case cuz i wont need very looow gearing.

-Max

damn damn damn damn damn damn damn!!!!!!!

i thought i had a 3speed case but the whole drivetrain (minus the axles) is from a 76!!

that blows cuz i need an adapter for cheap!!

if anybody has a th350 to four speed tcase adapter or a v8 to lc 4 speed bellhousing with all necessary parts...PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!

as of now im looking at the th350 adapter but i will take what i can get!!!

-Max

( i think im going to go open some of that porn mail...that usually cheers me up! ;) )

I may be able to get you a case with that adapter...let me look into it....

Originally posted by wngrog
I may be able to get you a case with that adapter...let me look into it....

Remember, i'm all about the cheapness!!

-Max

oh and one other thing, does it make a difference that the tranny has the looong tailshaft??? (i have access to a superb machine shop)

My opinion is stick with gears, two resons. One I agree with Roundrocktom, sometimes you need the gears for breaking on descends. And two if you take your cruiser any distance from civilization and your starter motor fails, at least you can push it to bump start it, try that with an auto.

I ran a 350/TH400/land cruiser tcase for several years and now run 350/sm420/land cruiser tcase.

I am a moderate wheeler and like rocks and technical trails.

I can say that I enjoy rock crawling more now with the granny manual. I feel more involved and like the rig "pulling" me through instead of me "pushing" the rig.

I did not dislike the auto, I pretty much just got bored and was stuck with poor gearing. My TQ wasn't right for crawling either. Personally, I would not run an automatic for rock crawling without a low gear or double tcase.

I will have to say that the automatic rules hands down on "pedal down" hill climbs or dirt / mud wheeling where you might have to just "get it" to make it.

Remember too that 700R4 can be built now and they have a 3:1 first gear and obvious overdrive. Also, you need good tranny coolers or it won't last. My rig runs about 15 degrees cooler with the manual now.

Figure out what kind of wheelin you going to be doing, thats the major factor in this decision.

My -0.02 cents

Karl

His choices that he has listed are a T350 and a Toyota 4 speed.

Again, if you are going to wheel this rig on any kind of terrain that needs some slow work, the stock 4 speed blows.

Email me direct on Monday and I will let you know for sure on the adapter and 3 speed case..

UPDATE: I still havent decided for sure, but it may be that what nolen has offered will be my decision.

I just got back from the shop (where its sitting) and started to tear her down...i found that i have hei and that it runs excellent!!

the first thing i did was cut off the pipe to the muffler (damaged anyways from accident) and i think i will never be satisfied with the 2f again!! :D The rumble and the way the motor "bucked" when i floored it was awesome!!! Whatever i decide, it will be a v8. :D :smokin:

and i think i will be running glasspacks....dunno :D

anyways i would like some more opinions but i am leaning towards auto...what do the rest of ya think??

_Max

i think if you want an auto or a cruiser 4spd....SCREW THE 4 SPD!!! they suck! i had a 3spd and a 4 cant be any better! if you want a real manual...you need a granny gear or its lame! so either auto or 420 or sumthin w/ a granny! i like my 420....but i think its truly a personal decision....you gotta decide...its your rig!! hehe:rasta:

Kman hit the nail on the head!! i like his thinking.
i think alot of it comes down to money also, the manual, when geared low, doubled whatever is more costly than an auto. an auto can be wheeled pretty good in stock form(no low gearing) but it puts a hell of a stress on the tranny.
i like the stick myself, for many reasons, manuals seem to pull the vehicle along better with less engine rev behind the right hands. all the autos i've dealt with seem to rev and push more getting the converter to overcome the load. seems like most of the auto guys run warmer too.
the engine brake effect is nice on a stick, i usually just feather my brakes lightly on steep descents, the autos have some brake effect also, but only if you keep it in first and only if you let the vehicle go fast enough for the engine to rev above the converters lock point, otherwise your into the brakes much more.
some people mention if your starter goes out on a stick you can bump start it, heh i'd like to see someone bump start a rig when they are wedged in rocks and the vehicle wont "coast" thats when my starter went out last, BTW in 15yrs of wheeling, thats the only time my starter has gone out with no warning. i was stuck manual or not and needed a tow out of that spot.
i think auto or manual whichever you go, your rig is only as good as you build it, you will always have limitations, but modification is how we overcome those limitations, and money/skill decides how we modify.
oh and my answer to your question between the 4 speed or 350 auto assuming thats all you are doing and nothing else,, i would say auto. you can modify later for better performance either drivetrain but the auto will get you rolling easier with less money to start, after all it takes skill to drive a stock geared stick, and alot of people just dont have what it takes.

Originally posted by RHINO
after all it takes skill to drive a stock geared stick, and alot of people just dont have what it takes.

Hey, i resent that :D

( i have been driving stick for two years (hey, im only 15) and i feel i am very good at it...but it looks like auto is the way im going to go...unless anybody can sway me...

btw, nobody answered my question about the tailshaft, will it work???

TIA
_Max

what i meant by that was,, in stock form a stick is hard to drive on rocks, with plenty of clutch slippage, if you arent good at it you will smoke a clutch in short order, even on one trail.
to your Q, stock 4 speed or auto i would say auto. but if your asking you must like the stick, so since you have to buy an adapter to put the auto on anyway, why not find an SM420-465. that'll be low enogh to get going without needin low gears right away, alot of wheelers find thats low enough for everything they do anyway. peace
oh and i think you want the short tailshaft, but not being a lazy malcontent (read automatic tranny user) i wouldnt know for sure :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

I went with the TH350 auto. I don't hard core wheel, I was pullin a trailer to the hills, and it sucked having to shift all the time (mine was 3 on the tree). Now in my advanced age, I wish I had the auto w/OD. These were in the POS category when I did the conversion, but later ones are better.

Long or Short shaft:
My first adapter used the long shaft. It was a junk (bad design) adapter, and I changed to an AA. At the time the AA required a short shaft, so had to tear down the trans and replace it. I'm not sure what the requirements for adapters now. Find out the requirements for the adapter you are getting.

Yes, I downshift to low when going downhill. Not a big deal.

I have been running a turbo 350 for over 12 years & love it. I do believe that you need the shortshaft to run the auto.
I also have the AA V8 to Landcruiser 4-speed parts. If you decide to go 4-speed, let me know. How much of a hurry are you in? Brad.

If you need the short shaft...
It is a relativly easy swap .
Just take tranny apart, remove a clip and swap to a short shaft.
Then, put back together EXACTLY as it was.
New gaskets and you'er off.

However...
If $$$$$ is a big deal (always is) Why not a SM420 to 3 spd T-Case? Only adapter needed is the plate! (and make a tranny mount) I'll sell you a plate cheap... So will Space Ghost or others.
I can even deliver it!

Go with whatever makes you :)

I am a big fan of Gears Over Fluid.

No need to go to 3.7 gears...
You will have taller gearing than that when you put on 33,35" tires anyhow.

Cory

well, heres the plan.

I have thought it over and decided that i am going to go automatic...(please dont flame me all you stick lovers!)

anyways,
Nolen, when i get back, i will let you know if i can use the 3spd case and adapter...

and, does anybody know about how much an output shaft and gasket set is gonna run me? or can i have it machined down (uncle owns a machine shop=no problem)

thanks,
Max

(oh and if i dont respond to e-mails or posts, it is because i am up north CRUSIN!!) ((for the next two weeks))

Until then, if somebody has a TH350 TO LC 4SPD CASE ADAPTER PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!! I dont think i want to buy a brand new one from aa.

Originally posted by wngrog
His choices that he has listed are a T350 and a Toyota 4 speed.

Again, if you are going to wheel this rig on any kind of terrain that needs some slow work, the stock 4 speed blows.

Gonna disagree with ya a bit here Nolen....granted, for the types of wheeling you and I do right now, the stock Toy 4-speed does suck.

However, I wheeled everything Wisconsin has to offer for 10 years with a crappy 305 or 350 V8 and the stock Toy 4-speed tranny. My wife was also quite adept at it, and stalled very rarely, and she learned to keep her foot off the clutch and let the motor work.

Learning to wheel for a year-two with the stock setup is important. I can drive my sm465 to the point the motor just almost stalls....the tires stop, it tries to quit, and I touch the gas and it burps thru. Learning on a Toy 4-speed taught me how to work the motor, and HEAR as much as FEEL the truck working.

The Toy 4-speed is not a bad road tranny. Drop in a 3-speed t-case and you pick up a 16% gearing change with no road change. (granted, I think that's a dumb mod, but it can be done)

At one brain-dead point, I had my 74 (still drums) over 100 mph with a warmed 350 and a 100% stock driveline. (ok, maybe more than once.... :D )

This is not one of those things you can really say one is better than the other, every body has there own opinion, and it varies depending on what they do for wheeling.
I personaly just swaped from a TH350 to a SM420 and I feel this is the best, hands down, swap for my rig!
My reasoning is with the auto, I fought heat, big time!! I tried everything under the sun, $500 dollar griffon radiators, huge external coolers(on top of the roll cage with electric fans) high flow water pumps, oil coolers and I even plumbed my rig to breath with a hood scoop so it could breath cool air! All with little to no gain.
Now with a SM420/ranger torque splitter, I have much better gearing, and the temp has not got over 198 degrees even driving at 70mph at 107degree weather, now I still have all the other cooling tricks in play so that may contribute to some of the temp drop but I can say that the auto generated way more heat than my system could disipate. As far as trail use the 420 does awsome! having the gears to fully control speed and not have to drag the breaks is really nice, with the auto you will use your breaks alot! I had to go to rear disks to help down hill control.
Also with a auto you will have rear drive line length issues, mine was only 16.5" long and I broke a rear pinion as a result, so if you are planning on lifting your rig with an offset rear axle than be careful on driveline angle.
The auto tranny is real long and the Advance Adapter adapter is 5.25" long this makes a real long drive train, I would use the Downey kit if I were to do it again, it's only 1" thick but requires a special front U-joint off the T-case. Also an auto does not give you true 1:1 ratio you will allways have about 200 to 300 rpms of slippage in the torque-converter unless you run a lockup TC and then you have to run a switch to control it.(not to mention it has to be a special TH350 Lockup housing)
You can get a SM420 for about 100.00 and you can get the adapter from Space Ghost to adapt a 3spd t-case for about 185.00 much cheaper than 500.00 for Advance Adapter or even more for Downeys stuff. One thing about the 420 is that it is not a smooth shifting tranny, it will work you! but you cannot beat the gearing off road for the price!!

Good luck!!

-Scott

MAx,
I know you said your choices were TH350 or H42(stock 4 speed), but why not go with a sm420. Adapters are cheap now(spaceghost makes a nice one, as are 3 spd t-cases. The clutch, and adapters to mate a toyota 4 spd to a v8 is going to cost more than doing an sm420, and adapter.

Go real cheap and keep the 2f(a built 2f will REALLY surprise you with its power), throw in an SM420 and a three speed t-case. Many people run this setup and it keeps the rear driveshaft a lot longer than a th350 and long adapter will...

I'll hook you up and I will trade one of my 3 spd cases for your 4 spd transfer case, if you would like. Shipping would not be that bad, and you'd have a case you could use with the cheap th350 adapter, ot maybe an sm420... All we would have to do is work out shipping $$$...Let me know if you want that trade...

-Brett

Max,

When it comes right down to it, go the way the best fits your Budget. Drive it and have fun. You got the auto, so use it if you can scrap up the adapter. If you can get a 3spd AA adapter for cheep, call AA and see what they want to sell you the 4sd spud shaft for. (And confirm with them this is all you need) I am running a 700R4 in my FJ-40 and love the auto off road. The 3:1 first gear is great as is the 30% overdrive of 4th. The T350 is a generally a reliable trany and readily available. (cheeper down road fix'es) I agree with the low gear guys, keep with the lower crawling gears if you can, especially with the automatic! I am running 5:29's in my dif's and used moderate brakes coming down Lions Back this year, with the 700R4 in 1st. With a basic 350 connected to a T350 trany and 4:11 axels running 33" tires you should not have any problem getting around on the street. Go the cheep route for you, and spend your extra $ on a front cadge then locker for the rear. This will be the next best upgrade for off road performance in that order.

BTW be safe with that 350, get a front cage ASAP! When I was 16 my parents insisted and put one in my 1965 FJ-40 hoopty one month before I street rolled it from driving too fast. I walked/limped away due to the cage and 3" five point harness for seat belts. The street had a 6" sliding depression for about 10' in a taper up to the surface of the road. (hole really) in it from where the front cadge chewed through the hard top then the asphalt as I slid on my lid. I still remember seeing and hearing the road and steal grinding away 8-10" above my head. A V8'ed 40 is a rush to drive, just respect it.

hey everybody...back from vacation..for a day.

well, to whoever mentioned it, (3spd adapter and buying spud shaft from aa) i like you a lot :D

i think this is what im going to do.

sooo, nolen, count me in on the 3spd adapter...btw, does it come with tcase crossmember?

i thank you all a lot for the help with this decision and will keep you updated.

thanks,
Max

Originally posted by Mr McGee
hey everybody...back from vacation..for a day.

well, to whoever mentioned it, (3spd adapter and buying spud shaft from aa) i like you a lot :D

i think this is what im going to do.

sooo, nolen, count me in on the 3spd adapter...btw, does it come with tcase crossmember?

i thank you all a lot for the help with this decision and will keep you updated.

thanks,
Max

The guy that was selling it made the move last week and decided to install it instead of sel it, so I gave it back :(

I will be able to land a T400 adapter and 3 speed case soon, but that does you no good!

I would spring for the AA adapter and keep the stronger 4 speed case.

Sorry!

Originally posted by Mr McGee


well, to whoever mentioned it, (3spd adapter and buying spud shaft from aa) i like you a lot :D


thanks,
Max

Your welcome, you own a cruiser so I like you as well, and since I do be thinking roll cage with your savings! They are your best buddy right when you need them! (and they look cool too!)

Mark

Originally posted by wngrog


The guy that was selling it made the move last week and decided to install it instead of sel it, so I gave it back :(

I will be able to land a T400 adapter and 3 speed case soon, but that does you no good!

I would spring for the AA adapter and keep the stronger 4 speed case.

Sorry!
Thats ok.

if i can get the stuff to adapt the 4spd from live wire (i think) do you think i should go for it if its cheaper??

live wire you still got the stuff?? and how much??

-Max

hellooo live wire...u out there???

how much bro??

_Max

Woody,

Why do you think the 4speed to 3spd tcase is a dumb mod?

Thanks,

4spd Tranny to 3spd t-case is bad cuz...

(answerin' for Woody here)

Same $$$$$ as any other swap and very limited return:D

Yes, you get a lower first gear. But, not low enough to justify the $$$ compared to other (420/465) swaps.

It is not a bad deal mech. wise....
But, just isn't netting enough advantage compared to the other options out there.


Also, I agree with Woody......
The stock 4 spd can be wheeled to advantage.
I did it for years with 3:73s then 4:88s now moving to 420/3spd/4:88s

Drove Purgetory in the Badlands with stock tranny and t-case with 4:88s (36" SXs)


Cory

74-older t-cases are 2.313 low range
75-newer t-cases are 1.999 low range

16% gearing reduction to go with the early t-case. Cost is in the $250 range, since you need a 74 transition input gear, a different/oddball t-case "carrier" bearing, different spacer, gaskets, and you end up with a later t-case that's cannibalized for it's floor shift option and for the flanges...so it's not worthless, but not worth as much as complete. Then add in that the early t-cases are more brittle and more prone to cracking...so a t-case saver for $40 is added in.

IMO, it's not worth it, compared to the costs of a SpaceGhost SM420 conversion and the 7.01 granny gear versus the 3.5551 stock 4-speed first almost a 100% reduction there. For a $150 tranny, his $200 kit, plus some driveshaft length mods, your OFFroadability is hugely increased. Granted, the SM420 is not a road tranny since it's noisy, but it rocks for a trail/occasional rig.