Heating with propane - off the natural gas grid

[Mechanos]

Not really a shop question, but have a little tech info that seemed a waste to get buried in the shit-shat forum. This seemed like the best place to put it.

I've been looking around at property for quite a while now and came across another place that seems like it would fit my purposes pretty damn good. It's out in a bit of a remote area and is off the natural gas grid, so anything gas fired will have to be propane. I know it costs more to heat with propane than it does with natural gas, but since I've never been off the ng grid before, I have no idea how much propane it actually takes.

So, for those of you that heat with propane (house, not shop), I was hoping you could answer a couple questions for me:

How many gallons of propane do you use in a typical year?
What size of house are heating (sq ft)?
What type of construction is the house (single story, two story, stud framed, etc.)?
How old is the house?
What part of the country are located in?
How long is the "cold season" (3 months, 4 months, etc.)?
What is the average winter temperature?

Answers to all those questions should be enough to put things into perspective to get an idea of propane heating costs. Thanks.....

[brewchief]

If you goggle fuel cost calculator you will find a calculator that allows you to plug in your cost of various fuels and compare them. If you are trying to figure cost for a planned house or shop you need to do a heat load calc. also known as a manual J. The man. J will take into account the type of construction, location, insulation, windows, basically all factors that contribute to heat loss and gain. Most of the man. J programs have a cost calculator that will figure your yearly fuel cost, while it may not be exact it will be pretty close.

If you do go with propane be aware that the price can and will change during the season, many companies offer lock ins that allow you to lock in your price for the year. If you buy your tank instead of renting from the propane company you can shop prices between companies, a large tank helps here if you can buy in the summer when prices are lower.

Brewchief:D

[almostthere]

500 gallon tank filled twice lasts 18 months or so, they will only fill to 80%(400 gallons for a 500 gallon tank) so 550 gallons a year. If I did it again I would have a 1000 gallon tank so one tank filled in the summer with the cheaper priced propane would last till next summer. Plus the more you buy the cheaper it gets, group buys produce an even better price. Don't fall for the rent a tank thing, I did for the first couple of years because its cheap, but you get a higher price than people who own their tank and your only supposed to have it filled by the company you rent from so you can't shop around. The difference in price from place to place, even in the same town, can be surprising.
House= 2000 sqft 2 story log cabin with well insulated metal roof built 5 years ago in mountains of southeast Tennessee. We have maybe 3 and half cold months a winter but the heat runs at night 6 or 7 months a year. I burn about 2 cords of wood a year in a wood stove to help on the real cold days.

I hope that helps

[ChiScouter]

Fawk the heat, buy an electric blanket and some longjohns :flipoff2:




SOOOO how big of a shop does it have:D












.

[akraven]

You might also check out Toyo stoves or Monitor stoves which are very efficient oil fired stoves. I know you said propane but fuel oil is much cheaper and very efficent. Most common stoves here in Alaska where there are very few palces that have natural gas outside of the big cities. akraven

[R290]

You might also check out Toyo stoves or Monitor stoves which are very efficient oil fired stoves. I know you said propane but fuel oil is much cheaper and very efficent. Most common stoves here in Alaska where there are very few palces that have natural gas outside of the big cities. akraven

x2 on the oil. Per gallon the oil is almost twice the BTU value. 148,000 vs 91,600 ok so not quite twice.

Spending money on spray foam, and low-e windows will save you a lot.

[nissancrawler]

2x6 walls, R 21? walls, I think.
R 4x something ceiling.
North Dakota.
Daylight basement.
1400 sq ft each floor
average temp 0-10*?
5-6 months of cold
built in '80

I don't know exact usage, but I believe we had a 1000 gallon tank, and it lasted us a full year.

It was my parents house, so I'm not 100% sure on the tank size, it was 1000 or 1500, but i'm 90% certain it was 1000.

[indulf]

http://www.doe2.com/

[PTSchram]

Our propane on a budget is $130/month. 2600 sq ft house, built in late 60s, 94% eff furnace. heat runs anywhere from four to five months a year. Lowest temps so far, 0'F.

Just got a 150K BTU furnace (from a Pirate :flipoff2:) and will heat my 3100 sq ft shop with it-I'll buy my own tank for the shop.

Our natural gas bill at our old house was more than Propane in the new house!
PT

[brewchief]

As a HVAC tech I hear the LP vs oil all the time so today I ran some numbers.

Heating oil in my area is averageing $3.13 gal

LP is averageing $2.40 gal

The average new oil furnace is about 80% efficeint, I know there are higher but I've never seen one in person in ten plus years. This is when in proper tune, not when dirty or when a homeowner has been *fixing* it.

The average new LP furnace is either 80% or 94-95% efficeit, for our purposes here we will use the 94-95, it's what is used in most new houses, at least around here.

If you run the numbers between the two, well it's basicly a wash, however the cost to maintain an oil furnace is about twice what a gas furnace is, where I work it's $89 for a gas clean and cheack vs. $169 for oil.


Brewchief:D

[R290]

I'm not big on an oil furnace either, but a an oil burner similar to a pellet stove is the hot ticket in rural areas that can have extended power outages. My aunt used pellets for years since her heat pump would not keep up in the dead of winter. Then she got an oil burner and it works a lot like the pellets but she no longer filling her trunk with bags of pellets any more. The tank is mounted on a stand so it gravity feed ( no power needed)

You must get a big break when buying a 1,000 gallons, as U-haul gets over $3.00 gal to fill my BBQ tank

[Todd W]

I'm not big on an oil furnace either, but a an oil burner similar to a pellet stove is the hot ticket in rural areas that can have extended power outages. My aunt used pellets for years since her heat pump would not keep up in the dead of winter. Then she got an oil burner and it works a lot like the pellets but she no longer filling her trunk with bags of pellets any more. The tank is mounted on a stand so it gravity feed ( no power needed)

You must get a big break when buying a 1,000 gallons, as U-haul gets over $3.00 gal to fill my BBQ tank

Take your tank someplace else. I paid around $2.50 last month... then again I filled more than a BBQ tank so that could have been why.

[Travis Waldher]

If you run the numbers between the two, well it's basicly a wash,

It will be too. The energy companies started adjusting their rates to btu ratings.

diesel, gas, oil, propane; they are all going to cost about the same for the same amount of energy.

The only reason NG gets ahead is because of the delivery system.

Even then, NG costs just about as much as electricity.

[Todd W]

It will be too. The energy companies started adjusting their rates to btu ratings.

diesel, gas, oil, propane; they are all going to cost about the same for the same amount of energy.

The only reason NG gets ahead is because of the delivery system.

Even then, NG costs just about as much as electricity.

Maybe where you are... but here NG is cheaper, noticeably on the bill not just 'about as much'.

[roverjohn]

How do you plan on cooking your food and heating your water? If the answer is electric than you still have a debate going on with the heating unit otherwise propane will get the nod. Especially here in KC as there is more than one big player in the propane business while finding a fuel oil dealer is tough. Plus you can buy blue flame type heaters anywhere so you can really get the heat where you want it instead of wherever your oil stove is. Get a wood stove for supplemental heat.

[Mechanos]

Thanks for all the info and opinions.... using a wood stove for suplemental heat is nice idea in theory, but that would most likely mean buying wood. The property is just under 3 acres and most of it is cleared so there's not a lot of (pratically none) wood to be cut from the land. The only gas appliance in the house is the furnace. Stove, dryer and water heater are all electric.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe propane was about $1.50/gallon here that last time I paid attention.

[pendy]

Its over 2.00 a gallon down here. KS. Might want to check prices before you make big "plans"

[akraven]

Here is a good comparison of various heat sources based on actual heat production.http://www.rural-energy.com/publications/catalog/documents/document-52.pdf
good luck. akraven

[Mechanos]

...SOOOO how big of a shop does it have:D

Not that big... there is what they call a "single car dettached garage", but it is about 22'x22' but only has one overhead door. There is also a barn, but it doesn't look to be much of a structure... bascially looks like an short opensided pole barn that is basically just shelter for a horse to get under to get out of the rain or the wind. But, there is plently of room to expand the garage or better yet to build an entirely new shop.

[fj40guy]

Sanity check on the prices.... Austin, TX... $2.70/gallon (it's been jumping all over the place). I didn't think Propane prices that much across the USA... but looks like it does.

Bought a 1000 gallon tank. Biggest advantage is for a larger bulk delivery in the summer, when the price is down... Hot Water heater (ya, four teenagers) furnance and the spa is heated with Propane.

[dropride]

Just has 244 gal. of propane delivered yesterday at $3.05 a gallon. :mad3:

[Dave_Lucas]

We do a prebuy in the summer for the entire year and the deliver it as I need it, sucks paying one big bill but it saves us from the higher rates in the winter.

Our house (2200 sq ft) heat, hot water heater and my shop (1400 sq ft) are run off propane, I think last year we used about 500 gallons but I also used 2 cords of wood.

If you can heat with wood in your area you might want to reconsider putting in a wood burning stove. The heat from a wood burning stove is diffrent than heat from forced air, the wood burning stove makes the floors, walls and everything warm where the forced air from the heater only seems to heat the air so your feet and everything stays cold.

My wife was opposed to the wood burining stove and wanted a gas fireplace like at our old house, but after I used the wood burning stove 1 time she now says that every house from here on out must have one. It really warms the entire house and you feet and everything stays nice and warm :D

[roverjohn]

I just had a bill cross my desk. 350 gallons at $1.87/gl so KC prices seem quite a bit lower than others.

[Mechanos]

We do a prebuy in the summer for the entire year and the deliver it as I need it, sucks paying one big bill but it saves us from the higher rates in the winter...

Yeah, you just have to plan for it. Setup your own 'escrow' account of sorts. If you typically spend around $1000/year on propane, then set back about $85 each month into the account.

[PTSchram]

Yeah, you just have to plan for it. Setup your own 'escrow' account of sorts. If you typically spend around $1000/year on propane, then set back about $85 each month into the account.

Our gas company offers us summer pricing, estimates usage and bills us monthly. At the end of the year, the account is reconciled, set for current year's prices and goes on again. Identical to setup we had for natural gas when we had it.

Reminds me, I need to go check the tank:D

[pendy]

My neighbor, car lot, spent 1400.00 on his propane last month. After he told me that I drug him back to look at his tank and the leaking fittings from the guys filling it. Very lucrative loose fittings. Talk about vaporware. And 2.10 a gallon to refill 1000 gallon tank.

JP

[Mechanos]

Ok, here's a dumb-ass question :homer:

Can you refill 20lb bottles from your 500 or 1000 gallon tank? Kind of like refilling 1lb bottles from your 20lb bottle. I'm guessing no, since there probably isn't a liquid feed line from the 500/1000 gallon tank and it would be kind of hard to turn one over. :homer:

[Todd W]

My neighbor, car lot, spent 1400.00 on his propane last month. After he told me that I drug him back to look at his tank and the leaking fittings from the guys filling it. Very lucrative loose fittings. Talk about vaporware. And 2.10 a gallon to refill 1000 gallon tank.

JP

Where is this at?

[R290]

Ok, here's a dumb-ass question :homer:

Can you refill 20lb bottles from your 500 or 1000 gallon tank? Kind of like refilling 1lb bottles from your 20lb bottle. I'm guessing no, since there probably isn't a liquid feed line from the 500/1000 gallon tank and it would be kind of hard to turn one over. :homer:


LOL, I could see you adding valve with a dip tube to your tank.

Are you thinking BBQ or an propane powered Scout:D

[TLCObsession]

Around here if you buy your own tank, you can shop the price of LPG every time you fill.l rent my tank, but got in on a commercial rate. They just delivered 260 gallons @ $2.07. I had my boiler disconnected until December because of my remodel, so we burned about 3/4 of a cord of wood. 1500 sq/ft with radiant baseboard and tankless right now. in 45 days 2000 sq/ft w/ radiant floor heat and tankless but better insulation.

Jim

[waynehartwig]

My dad heats his house and shop (probably 1000 sqft total) near Sacramento, but neither are very well built or insulated - basically tin buildings turned into something. He has two 30 gallon bottles and typically uses them both in the winter and then one in the summer - so 120 gallons a year. Heat and water heater....


This is a good topic, because I've really really really thought about converting from NG to propane... Here in Spokane I'm spending roughly $300 a month on NG in the dead of winter. 3600 sqft home, 6" walls and roughly 36" of insulation (blown in) in the roof. Built in 86. I pay $1680 a year for NG and electric. If I look at the electric part of the bill, it's low, usually $30 a month... So whats that, about $1300 a year in NG? Oh, and that's with a new 95% furnace.....


The heater in my dad's shop is NG that he converted to propane - by changign the 'jets'. If I did convert, couldn't I simply do that here as well? Reason I ask, is someone mentioned buying a propane heater to exchange with their NG....

[Mechanos]

My dad heats his house and shop (probably 1000 sqft total) near Sacramento, but neither are very well built or insulated - basically tin buildings turned into something. He has two 30 gallon bottles and typically uses them both in the winter and then one in the summer - so 120 gallons a year. Heat and water heater....

This is a good topic, because I've really really really thought about converting from NG to propane... Here in Spokane I'm spending roughly $300 a month on NG in the dead of winter. 3600 sqft home, 6" walls and roughly 36" of insulation (blown in) in the roof. Built in 86. I pay $1680 a year for NG and electric. If I look at the electric part of the bill, it's low, usually $30 a month... So whats that, about $1300 a year in NG? Oh, and that's with a new 95% furnace.....

The heater in my dad's shop is NG that he converted to propane - by changign the 'jets'. If I did convert, couldn't I simply do that here as well? Reason I ask, is someone mentioned buying a propane heater to exchange with their NG....
I can't see you saving any money by switching from NG to propane... in fact, it would probably cost more using propane than NG. I don't know what the current rates for NG and propane are in your area, but using the current values in my area, $1300 worth of NG would be over $2200 worth of propane to get the equivilant heating value. Switching from NG to propane would be a horrible financial decision.

[waynehartwig]

I can't see you saving any money by switching from NG to propane... in fact, it would probably cost more using propane than NG. I don't know what the current rates for NG and propane are in your area, but using the current values in my area, $1300 worth of NG would be over $2200 worth of propane to get the equivilant heating value. Switching from NG to propane would be a horrible financial decision.

Hmmm That sucks, because NG is real expensive here....

[Mechanos]

Hmmm That sucks, because NG is real expensive here....

Check the price of propane....... I bet you'll find it's even more expensive.

[pendy]

Where is this at?

KS

[pendy]

Ok, here's a dumb-ass question :homer:

Can you refill 20lb bottles from your 500 or 1000 gallon tank? Kind of like refilling 1lb bottles from your 20lb bottle. I'm guessing no, since there probably isn't a liquid feed line from the 500/1000 gallon tank and it would be kind of hard to turn one over. :homer:

Yeah we do it for the forklift. My other neighbor has a line that fits the fill line on the big tanks. We hook it to the forklift tanks and fill em up.. Its hard to find these fittings and hoses made up or I would have my own by now. And you need to be careful not to over fill and allow for expansion of course. This means don't let the employees who don't give a shit fill anything for you.

[R290]

edit...
This is a good topic, because I've really really really thought about converting from NG to propane... Here in Spokane I'm spending roughly $300 a month on NG in the dead of winter. 3600 sqft home, 6" walls and roughly 36" of insulation (blown in) in the roof. Built in 86. I pay $1680 a year for NG and electric. If I look at the electric part of the bill, it's low, usually $30 a month... So whats that, about $1300 a year in NG? Oh, and that's with a new 95% furnace......


3600 sqft, that's big, rancho style or two story. When I live in CDA I covered the windows with plastic, built in the 40's I would spend the money on low-e windows:smokin:

[PTSchram]

Yeah we do it for the forklift. My other neighbor has a line that fits the fill line on the big tanks. We hook it to the forklift tanks and fill em up.. Its hard to find these fittings and hoses made up or I would have my own by now. And you need to be careful not to over fill and allow for expansion of course. This means don't let the employees who don't give a shit fill anything for you.

The tank for the house has fittings labeled for vapor and liquid. Fittings/hoses should be available from your propane supplier or welding gas supplier.

[waynehartwig]

3600 sqft, that's big, rancho style or two story. When I live in CDA I covered the windows with plastic, built in the 40's I would spend the money on low-e windows:smokin:

It's a split level. And it does have low e windows... They are really think, so I think have a high R value - who knows though. They also have wood (maple I think) frames, so I'm not sure if that's a negative or not....