This is a e-mail I sent to Beau White with ARCA
----- Original Message -----
From: Shawn B Fisher <sfisher@dqe.com>
To: <beau@rockcrawler.org>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 1:56 PM
Subject: ARCA coming east


> Have you guys thought about having the competitions farther east? Maybe
> even have an east coast division. We have allot of good place to
> rockcrawl/wheel. (Attica, Tellico, just to name a few) Just a thought??
>
> Shawn Fisher
----------Reply-------------
We would love to have one back east. We just aren't aware of any places, or
rather, we aren't
familiar with any. Give me some specifics on where and why. We need a place
that is spectator
friendly. We want the course to be tight, not all spread out. Let me know if
you have a good place.

Thanks, Beau


SO.......Help me come up with a list.

paragon in hazelton pa...... spectator friendly... some pretty crazy trails with harder ones easily found....

This really needs to be held on land that you can get firm permits for use. I know that the trails we use in Oklahoma all have a variety of owners and they are not spectator friendly at all.

Hell the Cedar City and Farmington trails are all in an area no bigger than 300x300 yards.

I know for a fact that Tellico would not be an ARCA type place. It just does not fit the bill.

Disney OK might be a good option.....

I know for a fact that Attica could. It is privately owned and has places for spectators.

Originally posted by CoryL:
<STRONG>I know for a fact that Attica could. It is privately owned and has places for spectators.</STRONG>

I have tried to call them and see if they are interested but I keep getting a busy signal?

Badassjeepguy-paragon? does it have a web site or a contact?? We would need to give her an address and a contact. I will call them to see if they would be interested. OR if you know the people that own this place you talk to them. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">;D

I'm doing this because I want to see ARCA come east... we've got to have more places than this.
Does

[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: Syko ]

We have a local off road park that is just getting off the ground here close to Nashville, TN - Super spectator friendly, but they are still working on the obstacles...

They are already bringing in buggy races this fall, looking to attract other spectator type events as well.

Pavilion, trails all right there, tons of parking, etc....

I just got off the phone with Troy Meyers.(the guy that owns Attica) He said he would be interested and he had spoke to them before. He also said they have made a new rockcrawling course that is almost a mile long. He is working with a "Non-ARCA" group to put on a nation wide rocking event. So we will see.

I'm going to give her is name.
SO.....Give me names, phone #'s, and addresses guys. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by DRM:
<STRONG>We have a local off road park that is just getting off the ground here close to Nashville, TN - Super spectator friendly, but they are still working on the obstacles...

They are already bringing in buggy races this fall, looking to attract other spectator type events as well.

Pavilion, trails all right there, tons of parking, etc....</STRONG>


Do you have a number?

Originally posted by Syko:
<STRONG>
Do you have a number?</STRONG>

No, but I do have email: buckwheeling@aol.com


This place is several hundred acres and has lots of potential, just needs a little time...

They already have some pretty rough stuff, and as more people ride and more erociion takes place, it gets worse (better <IMG SRC="smilies/glasses.gif" border="0"> )

Here are just a few pics from a year ago New Years Day.... it was just opened before that and a LOT has changed.. more trails, rougher trails, etc...

http://www.tennessee4x4.com/toyota/images/nyd/nyd-13.jpg

http://www.tennessee4x4.com/toyota/images/nyd/nyd-08.jpg

http://www.tennessee4x4.com/toyota/images/nyd/nyd-09.jpg

I have seen lots of better pics of trails there, just I don't have any more <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0">

Paragon (http://www.paragonap.com/paragon.htm) is a huge privitely owned area in north eastern PA that was a quarry or somthing. They have lots of trails and are making new ones all the time.

[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: Eddie Mcstiff ]

Try Big Dogs Offroad (http://www.bigdogsoffroad.com)

They hold 3 or 4 events a year.

Originally posted by Convertiyota:
<STRONG>Try Big Dogs Offroad (http://www.bigdogsoffroad.com)

They hold 3 or 4 events a year.</STRONG>

They are a club right? If so do you know any one in the club?

BIG DOG Productions is a Maryland based company promoting Off-Road Trail Riding events and Demolition Derbies
Duh....I found it <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Syko:
<STRONG>I have tried to call them and see if they are interested but I keep getting a busy signal?

Badassjeepguy-paragon? does it have a web site or a contact?? We would need to give her an address and a contact. I will call them to see if they would be interested. OR if you know the people that own this place you talk to them. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">;D

I'm doing this because I want to see ARCA come east... we've got to have more places than this.
Does

[ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: Syko ]</STRONG>

i emailed you the web site.....

Originally posted by badassjeepguy:
<STRONG>i emailed you the web site.....</STRONG>
I had the wrong e-mail address in my profile. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
I fixed it <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
Someone posted the URL to the site. I have tried to call.

ok i emailed again, not sure how to link it on here.....sorry

Originally posted by DRM:
<STRONG>We have a local off road park that is just getting off the ground here close to Nashville, TN - Super spectator friendly, but they are still working on the obstacles...

They are already bringing in buggy races this fall, looking to attract other spectator type events as well.

Pavilion, trails all right there, tons of parking, etc....</STRONG>


Ever been to Dayton 50 miles west of Knoxville. They have Hummer world up there (A big quarry).
the whole place is owned by one fella.
Lot's of decent obstacles from what little I got to trail on with potential for some nasty stuff for sure.

arca is looking for big rock piles like at the hammers, and cedar city ,and farmington. according to the couple of east coasters that do compete and they are few. they say there is no good stuff like that out there thats why they drive out here to wheel the west coast is the best <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/flipoff.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by GearMan:
<STRONG>arca is looking for big rock piles like at the hammers, and cedar city ,and farmington. according to the couple of east coasters that do compete and they are few. they say there is no good stuff like that out there thats why they drive out here to wheel the west coast is the best <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/flipoff.gif" border="0"></STRONG>
<IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> i garuntee we got what you need here too..................

pictures will help you sell your turf <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Attica/badlands is a gravel pit/rock quarry They can build any kind obstacle they want...I drove about a 1/4 mile of that new trail last month, it's a rough SOB, my little 38x11.00 ft. boggers got swallowed several times.

Paragon might have the goods.
http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/images/1101/4wd1101_ramsey_06.jpg

http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/images/1101/4wd1101_ramsey_08.jpg

Ramsey National Offroad Challange Series at Paragon (http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/archives/events/1101_event01.shtml)

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Eddie Mcstiff ]

Originally posted by Eddie Mcstiff:
<STRONG>Paragon might have the goods.
http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/images/1101/4wd1101_ramsey_06.jpg

http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/images/1101/4wd1101_ramsey_08.jpg

Ramsey National Offroad Challange Series at Paragon (http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/archives/events/1101_event01.shtml)

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Eddie Mcstiff ]</STRONG>

definitly not spectator friendly

Originally posted by GDGMOJO:
<STRONG>
Ever been to Dayton 50 miles west of Knoxville. They have Hummer world up there (A big quarry).
the whole place is owned by one fella.
Lot's of decent obstacles from what little I got to trail on with potential for some nasty stuff for sure.</STRONG>

Our club is generally invited up there a couple of times a year... I have not been since 99 I think.. but there is some pertty sweet stuff up there for sure <IMG SRC="smilies/glasses.gif" border="0">

As for ARCA wanting rocks only - <IMG SRC="smilies/crybaby2.gif" border="0">

If you wanna come to the east coast, they are gonna have to deal with something besides rocks... That is like going to the desert and demanding mud <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by GearMan:
<STRONG>definitly not spectator friendly</STRONG>

Do think Las Cruces is spectator friendly?? Come awn? Your just trying to start the east coast west coast $hit.

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Syko ]

Originally posted by Syko:
<STRONG>Do think Las Cruces is spectator friendly?? Come awn? Your just trying to start the east coast west coast $hit.

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Syko ]</STRONG>

Nope, it's not. And that's why ARCA will never visit LC again.

Face it, the East Coast just sucks. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>Face it, the East Coast just sucks. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"></STRONG>


You're just jealous <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Why is bringing Arca here so important, it would be fun, but how many people will join if they don't have the ability to travel to the WC events. I don't see how or why good wheelin' has to be rocks only, there are all kinds of tough challenges out there, maybe some of the WC guys can't navigate anything else or have forgotten the that wheelin' is supposed to be done for fun and that only a hand full of people compete in ARCA events compared to the amount of people who wheel. Too bad their not up to a different type of challenge and aren't able to enjoy new environments. I would participate in any event on the EC and am willing to travel to the WC for anything worthwhile. As a shop owner I would be glad help ARCA come East, let me know what I can do.

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: LRD ]

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>Face it, the East Coast just sucks. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Jackass
<IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

I don't see how or why good wheelin' has to be rocks only
It dosent but, ARCA= American Rock Crawling Association.

definitly not spectator friendly
Why not, Because of the trees? I'm sure that there are some places that are more open than others. The park is HUGE 15,000 acres. Whith that much space thr ARCA should beable to find a 300x300 yard corse.

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Eddie Mcstiff ]

Originally posted by LRD:
[QB]As a shop owner I would be glad help ARCA come East, let me know what I can do.
QB]
Thanks
<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

paragon is the best bet, and it can be spectator friendly....

there are plenty of rocks......... it IS worthy

Originally posted by DRM:
<STRONG>
They are already bringing in buggy races this fall, looking to attract other spectator type events as well.

</STRONG>

Spectator events? Like a mud race perhaps? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

TEX

Originally posted by TEX:
<STRONG>Spectator events? Like a mud race perhaps? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

TEX</STRONG>

buckwheeling@aol.com ask them and see <IMG SRC="smilies/glasses.gif" border="0">

TEX, I will go you one better, I will personally call the local 4x4 shop that is working to promote some events and ask them about running your mud races there... and I will call THIS AFTERNOON <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

My question is, why would you want to have an ARCA event in the East coast? The event is a series not a one time event. Therefore it doesn't make a lot of sense to have one event 3000 miles from the rest of the events. Maybe the Bob Hazel event would be better for that. Or maybe you guys ought to make your own East Coast organization. You could call it MPCA - Muddy Pebble Crawling Association. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Better yet change the ARCA to the WCRCA West Cost Rock Crawling Association. But seriously <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> , If no one drive 3000 miles to go to it and only east cost guys are there then whats the diffrence? None of the points leaders would be effecter unless other west costers go to the eastren event. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/bounce.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Eddie Mcstiff ]

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>My question is, why would you want to have an ARCA event in the East coast? The event is a series not a one time event. Therefore it doesn't make a lot of sense to have one event 3000 miles from the rest of the events. Maybe the Bob Hazel event would be better for that. Or maybe you guys ought to make your own East Coast organization. You could call it MPCA - Muddy Pebble Crawling Association. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

ok thats funny... <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

but seriously.... it would be cool to see it all one, reason so us east coaster's could shut you west coasters up about what is harder or not.....


if it was seperate, you fawkers would still be saying our shits easy....

it would make the west coasters come over here... <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

im not saying our shit is harder, but it aint any easier....

Originally posted by DRM:
<STRONG>TEX, I will go you one better, I will personally call the local 4x4 shop that is working to promote some events and ask them about running your mud races there... and I will call THIS AFTERNOON <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Rock N Roll, I'll hold off on sending an e-mail then.

TEX

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>My question is, why would you want to have an ARCA event in the East coast? The event is a series not a one time event. Therefore it doesn't make a lot of sense to have one event 3000 miles from the rest of the events.</STRONG>

Who said anything about ARCA just doing ONE event East of the Mississippi? <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> How 'bout they do HALF their events out East & DOUBLE the number of events in the series? <IMG SRC="smilies/glasses.gif" border="0"><STRONG>

Maybe the Bob Hazel event would be better for that. </STRONG>

Bob Hazel <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> Man, you REALLY dislike those of us East of The Divide, don't ya? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">


TEX

How 'bout eastren and westren divisions. Then have the finals on unseen rock between the top X# of people in each division?

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>Or maybe you guys ought to make your own East Coast organization. You could call it MPCA - Muddy Pebble Crawling Association. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Oh My God I fell On the floor dying Laughing
That's pretty good lance!!!!!

LOL ROFLMAO <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0">

Yeah, you are right there is no legitimate rock crawling in the east coast. Here are a few pics that I took behind my house in Tennessee. This is what the terrain is like everywhere here.
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/Bouncer.JPG">
Sorry about the light in this pic. This has about three 6' ledges, besides being on about a 35-40* angle.
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/Entrance.JPG">
There are lots of these between bigger obstacles. They are usually between 4-6' tall, and very slippery.
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/mini step falls.JPG">
Pathways like this between larger obstacles.
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/Creek ways.JPG">
Typical condition of creek beds.
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/Creek way.JPG">
Quite a few of these. The small rock on the left is about the size of a large dining room table. The falls are about 10' tall, almost vertical,and has a unique rippling surface.<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/Waterfall 2.JPG">
No, There are no big rock in the east coast. This is an estimated 150-200' tall.
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/BIG ROCK.JPG"> <IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/Big Rock 2.JPG">

I think I am approaching the limit of pics for one post, so I will post again.
Sean

Some pics of large waterfall type obstacles.
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/Big step falls...JPG">
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/Circle falls 1..JPG">
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/inside out falls...JPG">
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/winch falls...JPG">
From the top of one of the above sets.
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/I.O.F from top...JPG">

Some assorted trail shots.
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/Cold Feet...JPG">

About 2' deep
<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/puddles..JPG">

<IMG width=640 height=480 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/1 big rock...JPG">

In the fall to winter time you can see clear across these woods, and even in the summer with just a little work there would be plenty of spectator gathering areas.

Sean

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Station ]

<IMG SRC="smilies/rainbow.gif" border="0">

<IMG SRC="smilies/rainbow.gif" border="0"> That is all that you have to say? What's <IMG SRC="smilies/rainbow.gif" border="0"> about it? This is by no means the best that there is to offer. These pics just a few that I took on my own land. So dont compare this virgin terrain to the best(often unnatural) open public trails that you have.

Sean

definitly not greenie favorable. that doesnt look like we would be treading very lightly in those shots. but if we can come out there and hammer down on your vegitation then let me at it

After a few boggers go over any of those spots, they will be slicker than snot

Originally posted by dirtrod:
<STRONG>After a few boggers go over any of those spots, they will be slicker than snot</STRONG>

yeap. slicker than frozen frog snot on a foor knob! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Hey TEX - I tried calling, was busy.. will call again tomorrow for ya <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG> <IMG SRC="smilies/rainbow.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Actually, from a spectator point of view, West Coast with its relatively high level of traction would look pretty <IMG SRC="smilies/rainbow.gif" border="0"> compared to the massive tire spin & HP that would be exhibited on East Coast terrain <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

TEX

Originally posted by DRM:
<STRONG>Hey TEX - I tried calling, was busy.. will call again tomorrow for ya <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Thanks!

TEX

Originally posted by TEX:
<STRONG>Actually, from a spectator point of view, West Coast with its relatively high level of traction would look pretty <IMG SRC="smilies/rainbow.gif" border="0"> compared to the massive tire spin & HP that would be exhibited on East Coast terrain <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

TEX</STRONG>

Well I can assure you that the crowd didn't see just a bunch of boring crawling last weekend. There was enough HP and wheelspin to make any east coaster blush. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">
http://www.pirate4x4.com/trailreports/arca_farmington2001/saturday/Image054.jpg
He ain't crawling, I can assure you that. Ca you say 375HP Ram Jet 350 to the floor? Why do you think Walker is selling his truck and getting a V8? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Lance ]

i was at paragon last weekend and there are trails there that have people going home on the trailers every weekend. Reed is the guy that owns the place and i'm sure he'd be happy to help bring bigger events there. the site is www.paragonap.com (http://www.paragonap.com)

dave

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>My question is, why would you want to have an ARCA event in the East coast? The event is a series not a one time event. Therefore it doesn't make a lot of sense to have one event 3000 miles from the rest of the events. Maybe the Bob Hazel event would be better for that. Or maybe you guys ought to make your own East Coast organization. You could call it MPCA - Muddy Pebble Crawling Association. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Better yet why would you even want to leave Cali?? Hell, Why would you want to wheel different trails? I say ARCA picks one spot and that's all they wheel for ever. <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">
So are you saying that you have no desire to wheel the East?

American Rock Crawlers Association
NOT West Coast Rock Crawlers Association
From the site
ARCA's purpose...
Started in 1999, the ARCA has many goals. ARCA sets up and sanctions rock crawling championships around the country. By doing this, the ARCA is able to make a genuine sport of this genuine hobby.

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Syko ]

Originally posted by Syko:
<STRONG>Better yet why would you even want to leave Cali?? Hell, Why would you want to wheel different trails? I say ARCA picks one spot and that's all they wheel for ever. <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">
So are you saying that you have no desire to wheel the East?

American Rock Crawlers Association
NOT West Coast Rock Crawlers Association
From the site
ARCA's purpose...
Started in 1999, the ARCA has many goals. ARCA sets up and sanctions rock crawling championships around the country. By doing this, the ARCA is able to make a genuine sport of this genuine hobby.

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Syko ]</STRONG>

Hahaha Yes, so how about you stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Station ]

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>Ca you say 375HP Ram Jet 350 to the floor? </STRONG>

375HP? Hell, that's what we run in our STREET trucks. Within my club of 35 members, we have at least a dozen with way more get-up-and-go than that, and 1/2 a dozen with 800HP and up <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">


TEX

I've wheeled up and down the East Coast, and although I FIRMLY believe that there is technical wheeling on the East Coast that is as tough, or tougher as that of the West Coast, I've never seen piles of VW beetle-sized boulders like those I saw when I lived out West. I went to see the ARCA event at Florence Junction when I lived in Phoenix, and the obstacles, mostly determined by sadistic organizers, were INSANE. That said, the event wasn't exactly spectator friendly, unless you like sitting on a cholla cactus!

I for one understand why the ARCA series limits competition to several key Western locations; first of all, these trails are already insane, they don't require truckloads of boulder being brought it on rearranged. Second, you have to take into account the amount of travel and effort required to make all these events; ARCA isn't NASCAR, most of these guys do it on a shoestring budget and having half of the Series's events East of the Mississippi isn't a practical undertaking. Besides, ARCA is very young, there are still a lot of quirks to work out and they're learning as they go. Perhaps sometime in the future there will be two competing series, one on the Western states and one east of the Miss, and then the winners can compete in a "Superbowl of Rockcrawling", the location of which could be alternated in different years.

Finally, the whole "East Coast/West Coast" debate is getting kind of tiresome. I've wheeled on both sides, and while different, they can be as fun and as technical as the other. Of the hard-core Californians that have come to wheel Tellico with us, none has ever left saying that the wheeling was easier than back home. In fact, I remember Marlin's first trip to GSMTR (Tellico), ask him what he thought of Helicopter Pad. Is it the Little Sluice? Maybe not, but you gotta break out of that childish, insular mentality that your trails are the only tough ones...

Originally posted by 60seriesguy:
<STRONG>
Second, you have to take into account the amount of travel and effort required to make all these events; ARCA isn't NASCAR, most of these guys do it on a shoestring budget and having half of the Series's events East of the Mississippi isn't a practical undertaking. </STRONG>

Wouldn't be practical for everyone to make every event. But, I still think it would be a good idea. For one thing, the greater variety of terrain would dictate some different trains of thought. NMRO racers are on a pretty tight budget, but that doesn't keep them from having stops as far apart as MO, VT, SC, PA, and several points in between.

TEX

Originally posted by 60seriesguy:
<STRONG>Second, you have to take into account the amount of travel and effort required to make all these events; ARCA isn't NASCAR, most of these guys do it on a shoestring budget and having half of the Series's events East of the Mississippi isn't a practical undertaking. .</STRONG>

Yep, No body from the east coast runs ARCA

<IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Syko:
<STRONG>Yep, No body from the east coast runs ARCA

<IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"></STRONG>


correct me if im wrong.... an east coaster won the last event out there.... hmmmmm <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by badassjeepguy:
<STRONG>
correct me if im wrong.... an east coaster won the last event out there.... hmmmmm <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

But see, it's "easier" for East-Coasters to travel to New Mexico than for Left-Coasters to travel to Tennessee. Follow that logic? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

TEX

Originally posted by TEX:
<STRONG>But see, it's "easier" for East-Coasters to travel to New Mexico than for Left-Coasters to travel to Tennessee. Follow that logic? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

TEX</STRONG>

Well since it's about the same distance from where I live to NM as it is from TN... <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

The bottom line is that you have to make every comp. You can't miss one because it's too far. You go to all of them, or nothing. If they had one in the East coast, I'd go. But I'd probably be bored. <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> I'd have to sell my left nut to pay for the extra gas, and extra time off work, but I'd go.

Here's a deep thought.... Bob Hazel lives on the East coast (alabama, I believe). He puts on events all over the East coast. He knows all the "good" spots. Why hasn't he held a National Rock Crawling Championship over there? <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0">

Because Bob Hazel has wore out his welcome over here and all of his events are getting less and less participation.

I'm from Mississippi origionally and have wheeled in N Carolina and Tennesee as well as Oklahoma and Texas.

I'm telling you, we don't have the ABUNDANCE of land that it takes to have a series in these places.

You may be able to scratch together an event at Attica, Disney or Paragon, but this place in Farmington is HUGE and we had permits to be there!

I could easily walk to 5 different obsticals in 5 minutes or less.

On Monday morning I wheeled Cedar City with Henry Brimmer in his mini truck and it is the same way. Tons of terrain in a tight spot.

The west just has better venues for what ARCA is looking for.

As for getting it....dude, after this weekend I realized that I HAD to have a V8 if I ever plan on running one of these events.

These guys ripped the hellout of their engines! There was very little "crawling" involved that I saw!

East/West, boring <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Can't we all just get along?

<IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>Well I can assure you that the crowd didn't see just a bunch of boring crawling last weekend. There was enough HP and wheelspin to make any east coaster blush. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">
http://www.pirate4x4.com/trailreports/arca_farmington2001/saturday/Image054.jpg
He ain't crawling, I can assure you that. Ca you say 375HP Ram Jet 350 to the floor? Why do you think Walker is selling his truck and getting a V8? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Lance ]</STRONG>

Suggesting 375 hp is alot?Are you kidding????Must be some of that "green california air" getting to you guys..oh wait that is the toxic fumes in the smog.. As for someone selling his truck to get a V-8.My question is why did it take him so long to figure out something many of us have known for a long time that is so obvious..As for real power, there all people in Tennessee running hybrids with 44 inch tires(and bigger) with 3 inch bolts sticking out of the tires running 10,000 dollar big blocks using every once of the power those motors will muster while climbing hills that are nearly straight up and very lengthy. check out www. chaindriverails.com for some pix of some serious rail buggies and steep hills..but, i guess that doesn't count since there only hills with peebles....as for Hazel..can we say his bad karma is catching upto him. Say, maybe he can come to stay with you on the west side and let you guys keep your event out there .I don't think we need it for a second. Please keep you "american rock crawling (slower than a snail) circuit"..I think there is a new circuit starting for elderly over 65 with walkers..oh there has been a recent developoment...they now have walkers with wheels..Now top speed is -10 mph.Oh, the excitement.. <IMG SRC="smilies/flipoff.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by onetonwillysands10:
<STRONG>Suggesting 375 hp is alot?Are you kidding????Must be some of that "green california air" getting to you guys..oh wait that is the toxic fumes in the smog.. As for someone selling his truck to get a V-8.My question is why did it take him so long to figure out something many of us have known for a long time that is so obvious..As for real power, there all people in Tennessee running hybrids with 44 inch tires(and bigger) with 3 inch bolts sticking out of the tires running 10,000 dollar big blocks using every once of the power those motors will muster while climbing hills that are nearly straight up and very lengthy. check out www. chaindriverails.com for some pix of some serious rail buggies and steep hills..but, i guess that doesn't count since there only hills with peebles....as for Hazel..can we say his bad karma is catching upto him. Say, maybe he can come to stay with you on the west side and let you guys keep your event out there .I don't think we need it for a second. Please keep you "american rock crawling (slower than a snail) circuit"..I think there is a new circuit starting for elderly over 65 with walkers..oh there has been a recent developoment...they now have walkers with wheels..Now top speed is -10 mph.Oh, the excitement.. <IMG SRC="smilies/flipoff.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Hey dickhead, your east coast buddies are the ones <IMG SRC="smilies/crybaby2.gif" border="0"> about ARCA not coming out to your ultra bad ass shit. So if your rig is so fawkin bad ass, come out to the next competition and bring it. It's going to be in March in Farmington. That's only 1200 miles from you. About the same as it is for me. So what's your excuse? So until then, shut your pie hole and go play in the mud.

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Lance ]

Lance, I don't see anyone <IMG SRC="smilies/crybaby2.gif" border="0"> over ARCA not being here, it is just that it would be nice to see something besides the same 10 Jeeps on the same 8 trails you guys have in every mag, video, and competition <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

variety baby... it's all good <IMG SRC="smilies/glasses.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>Hey dickhead, your east coast buddies are the ones <IMG SRC="smilies/crybaby2.gif" border="0"> about ARCA not coming out to your ultra bad ass shit. So if your rig is so fawkin bad ass, come out to the next competition and bring it. It's going to be in March in Farmington. That's only 1200 miles from you. About the same as it is for me. So what's your excuse? So until then, shut your pie hole and go play in the mud.

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Lance ]</STRONG>

<IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by onetonwillysands10:
<STRONG>Suggesting 375 hp is alot?Are you kidding????Must be some of that "green california air" getting to you guys..oh wait that is the toxic fumes in the smog.. As for someone selling his truck to get a V-8.My question is why did it take him so long to figure out something many of us have known for a long time that is so obvious..As for real power, there all people in Tennessee running hybrids with 44 inch tires(and bigger) with 3 inch bolts sticking out of the tires running 10,000 dollar big blocks using every once of the power those motors will muster while climbing hills that are nearly straight up and very lengthy. check out www. chaindriverails.com for some pix of some serious rail buggies and steep hills..but, i guess that doesn't count since there only hills with peebles....as for Hazel..can we say his bad karma is catching upto him. Say, maybe he can come to stay with you on the west side and let you guys keep your event out there .I don't think we need it for a second. Please keep you "american rock crawling (slower than a snail) circuit"..I think there is a new circuit starting for elderly over 65 with walkers..oh there has been a recent developoment...they now have walkers with wheels..Now top speed is -10 mph.Oh, the excitement.. <IMG SRC="smilies/flipoff.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

damn couldnt have said it better myself

I see as many people Crying about how ARCA should stay in the west because anything else would be too long of a drive.

Originally posted by Eddie Mcstiff:
<STRONG>I see as many people Crying about how ARCA should stay in the west because anything else would be too long of a drive.</STRONG>

lol <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by badassjeepguy:
<STRONG>
correct me if im wrong.... an east coaster won the last event out there.... hmmmmm <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"></STRONG>
That's my point <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> I see some else sees what I'm saying <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

<IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0">
Face it east coasters, we just don't know how to wheel <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0">

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: Syko ]

Lance
Seriously, All East coast West coast B.S. aside, Wouldn’t you like to see the sport go national. Do you not like to wheel new places. This would open the sport up to more people and more variety. Beau White from ARCA even said “We would love to have one back east”
I just feel that a lot of the west coasters think you can’t rockcrawl east of the Rockies. My question is, If you haven’t been there or don’t know the place how do you know. Is this not the same type of thinking that relates bad things/acts to the pirates club. They don’t know who the pirates really are but they make assumptions. Just a thought

We may continue with the East coast West Coast BS now <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
<IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

I'm just an observer, being in Canada AND on the East Coast, but my thought is that if ARCA came out east it would be a different type of competition, because essentially it's a different type of terrain. I'm sure that spectator friendly avenues exist (or could be created) in private facilities such as paragon, tellico, etc etc, but the type of competition that would take place would be fundementally different than what has traditionally passed for rock crawling competitions so far ........

..... and what's wrong with that? Frankly I think the variety would make it more interesting - kinda like the way the NASCAR guys occasionally stop driving in a friggin circle and run a road course from time to time. It makes it more interesting for the spectators and challenging for the drivers. Nothing wrong with that.

Bottom line is it would be nice if they moved it out east for one or two events, but those events should be competitions in EAST COAST wheeling, not trying to make WEST COAST courses happen out on the east coast.

I understand about the cost being a BIG factor, I can totally see how that would prevent this from happening ..... but let's get serious. This sport is quickly passing the 'run whatcha brung, anyone can win' stage and is starting to get into highly specialized, high budget racing - one only has to look at Currie, Evans, Avalanche, Campbell, etc etc to see where it is headed. I think it's really cool when what I would term a 'privateer' from my motorcycle racing days kicks these 'factory' butts, but I think those days are going to become increasingly rare as the sport continues.

In any competition series in the growing stages, there inevitably comes a time when they must decide if they are going to stay small and 'grass roots', or go big, and try for national exposure. ARCA's time is coming and I for one fully expect them to do whatever it takes to make the series bigger, no matter what that does to the 'little guy'. So I think worrying about what the cost is going to do to the little guy trying to compete is moot - the little guy is already on the verge of being squeezed out, even if he does not know it yet.


Just my 2c.

Originally posted by Lo Rent Willy:
<STRONG>Because Bob Hazel has wore out his welcome over here and all of his events are getting less and less participation.</STRONG>

A-Fawkin-Men! East Coasters are looking for a "big-time" event. Not a small-time event with a big-time advertising budget.


TEX

Originally posted by TEX:
<STRONG>A-Fawkin-Men! East Coasters are looking for a "big-time" event. Not a small-time event with a big-time advertising budget.


TEX</STRONG>


<IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0">

TEX - The ball is in your court <IMG SRC="smilies/glasses.gif" border="0"> Check your PM <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by DRM:
<STRONG>TEX - The ball is in your court <IMG SRC="smilies/glasses.gif" border="0"> Check your PM <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Done <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">


TEX

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>Hey dickhead, your east coast buddies are the ones <IMG SRC="smilies/crybaby2.gif" border="0"> about ARCA not coming out to your ultra bad ass shit. So if your rig is so fawkin bad ass, come out to the next competition and bring it. It's going to be in March in Farmington. That's only 1200 miles from you. About the same as it is for me. So what's your excuse? So until then, shut your pie hole and go play in the mud.

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Lance ]</STRONG>

Lance why don't you bring your "bad ass" yota and " bad ass" attitude" on out here..I have no desire to come out west and ride ..If I did I would probably rent a go cart to ride on the trails out there..By the way "dickhead" i wasn't crying about bring ARCA out here.I just got tired of your closed minded posts bad mouthing the east..If I recall I said I hoped ARCA stays the #^$$ out west.We don't need it.True someone else was wanting it;but, to each his own..By the way, have you ever ridden in the east or in particular Tennessee? If not you need to shut your trap until you have some knowledge of the difficulty of the trails out here all be it a different difficulty...Now there is a concept.AN actual trail not a contrived course the size of a football field..Believe me, I could plot you out a course on local trails that would leave you wishing you were back on your "boulders"..But, anytime you want to play on wet muddy rocks(opps forgot there peebles even if they are 5 feet tall) then bring your tricycle this way.Just give us some advance notice so we can round up a couple of angry squirrels or pissed rabbits or something to put under the hood to boost you power so you stand a chance.. <IMG SRC="smilies/flipoff.gif" border="0">

This has turned into some funny shiat. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by onetonwillysands10:
<STRONG> we can round up a couple of angry squirrels or pissed rabbits or something to put under the hood </STRONG>


Now just how did I get drug into this??? <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

<IMG SRC="smilies/nuke.gif" border="0">
*shaking head*
<IMG SRC="smilies/nuke.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>Well since it's about the same distance from where I live to NM as it is from TN... <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

The bottom line is that you have to make every comp. You can't miss one because it's too far. You go to all of them, or nothing. If they had one in the East coast, I'd go. But I'd probably be bored. <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> I'd have to sell my left nut to pay for the extra gas, and extra time off work, but I'd go.

Here's a deep thought.... Bob Hazel lives on the East coast (alabama, I believe). He puts on events all over the East coast. He knows all the "good" spots. Why hasn't he held a National Rock Crawling Championship over there? <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0"></STRONG>


bobs events are lame.......

imo, any one who would sell there left nut to wheel... is hardcore gettin it! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

(wonder what the wife would say bout that one)

it always comes down to a pissin match... <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> im sure similar issues were around when ohh NASCAR came to be what it is today.... used to be local track grass roots....... then it expanded and realized its overall potential.....

Lance, time is basically what kills me from headin out there for compitition.... ohh ill be out to GET IT with ya'll, just not arca........not enough time.


the more i think of it, it would be nice if they had an east coast division and a west coast division.... then the top points leaders go to an unknown location for finals...

there are so many possibilities.... i dont think arca should just maintain what there doin....... they should expand... just a matter of which way they go....

remember there is power in #'s arca could become pretty powerfull if they play there cards right...

powerfull as in , higher end sponsors, tv, plain ole public awareness, lobbiest, off road industry, and this list goes on...

that kind of exposure could be an awsome thing....


east coast west coast.. <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> lets just get it,

scenerio... arca is big across the US, everyones talkin bout it.... bigger sponsors have stepped up to the plate... espn is covering the events.... how many big $$ company's would have an impact on landuse issues? how many local "spots" would go to there representitves saying we need this in our area.. (revenue)

how many areas that arent in the "big picure" would start little grass roots style points series as a steppin stone... (again pullin more sponsors, venue and etc....

Here's a deep thought.... Bob Hazel lives on the East coast (alabama, I believe). He puts on events all over the East coast. He knows all the "good" spots. Why hasn't he held a National Rock Crawling Championship over there?

First, to suggest that "bob hazel" knows all the good spots is frigging hilarious.That is like saying ..there goes ol Lance...he must know all the good spots...Second, Bob is on the fast track to being ostracized in the four wheeling community.Third, ....well most folks that are the "hardcore" and "non-hardcore" alike that are in the "know about his intentions" wouldn't have anything to do with an event that is associated with him..Therefore, if he had such an event (which I don't give a crap about )no one come..Wait maybe that is a good idea....AND last.....You folks in Alabama should pissed about now....Good night.... <IMG SRC="smilies/flipoff.gif" border="0">

I thought Bob lived in NC...

Originally posted by DRM:
<STRONG>I thought Bob lived in NC...</STRONG>

Could be. Seems that the address for SITR is in OK though. But, I was pretty sure he was from East of the Muddy Miss. <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0">

One thing I do know is that he's not welcome to return to many of the places he's been <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">


TEX

Originally posted by DRM:
<STRONG>I thought Bob lived in NC...</STRONG>

He used to live in N.C. not sure now...I was having some fun with the" living in alabama reference" <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by onetonwillysands10:
<STRONG>Here's a deep thought.... Bob Hazel lives on the East coast (alabama, I believe). He puts on events all over the East coast. He knows all the "good" spots. Why hasn't he held a National Rock Crawling Championship over there?

First, to suggest that "bob hazel" knows all the good spots is frigging hilarious.That is like saying ..there goes ol Lance...he must know all the good spots...Second, Bob is on the fast track to being ostracized in the four wheeling community.Third, ....well most folks that are the "hardcore" and "non-hardcore" alike that are in the "know about his intentions" wouldn't have anything to do with an event that is associated with him..Therefore, if he had such an event (which I don't give a crap about )no one come..Wait maybe that is a good idea....AND last.....You folks in Alabama should pissed about now....Good night.... <IMG SRC="smilies/flipoff.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Well for someone who is apparently so hated in the East coast, he sure had a lot of venues in the east coast this year <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> :

Superlift 4xAdventure TX
Ramsey National Off Road Challenge Series AR
Superlift 4xAdventure IN
Pocono ATV Jamboree PA
Rumble PA
Tennessee Off Road Roundup TN
Ramsey National Off Road Challenge Series PA
Superlift presents Mudstock MO
Rendezvous TN
Superlift 4xAdventure CO
Pocono Trail Fest PA
Ramsey National Off Road Challenge Series*IN
(Trail ride formerly known as Wabash Fall Fest.)
Superlift 4xAdventure AL
Hatfield McCoy Trail Fest WV

Yeah, and I bet all of those events were empty because he is sooooo hated in the East coast. LOL <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

So hey hillybilly willy, how bout taking that redneck jerry rigged pile of crap out of the mud puddles and try something else? I've driven 1000's and 1000's annnnnnd 1000's of miles this year to four wheel all over the place. Where have you gone? Oh that's right. You stick to your awesome state of Tennessee. <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> I have absolutely no problem coming out to TN someday and getting it. Do you think Im afraid or something? You see this whole thread isn't about your mud bogging hills, it's about ROCK CRAWLING. Got that? R-O-C-K C-R-A-W-L-I-N-G. That is what ARCA does. I could care less if you have the steepest, baddest muddy hills in the world. It doesn't mean shit to me, because what is being discussed is a venue for rock crawling. You ought to go try it sometime, you might like it. And 99% of my responses to the others were playing. They now it, that's what the <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">'s and the <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">'s are for.

You know, there a few East Coasters in ARCA. Jeff and Kathy Baucum, Chris Durham, Ken Shupe, and a couple others. NONE of them are whining for a comp out east. They ALL say there is nothing out there for this type of sport. They don't say that there isn't any good wheelin, they say there isn't any ARCA-type rock crawling.

Some of you stil seem to think that all the "west coast" (is New Mexico/Colorado/Utah really in the west coast?) only has dry rock crawling. I take my rig on high speed desert romps, launch it off sand dunes, run in white out condition blizzards in the snow, and the very occasional mud romp ( <IMG SRC="smilies/puke.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> ). A rig should be able to do it all. And so should the driver.

Im done with this thread. I have said my piece, and where ever ARCA decides to hold an event, I will be there. And I will get it.

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: Lance ]

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>it's about ROCK CRAWLING. Got that? R-O-C-K C-R-A-W-L-I-N-G. That is what ARCA does. I could care less if you have the steepest, baddest muddy hills in the world. It doesn't mean shit to me, because what is being discussed is a venue for rock crawling.</STRONG>

No Lance, it is not about rock crawling. It is about rock racing. You yourself posted a picture of a 375 horsepower rig tearing it up to get up that rock face... Was that "crawling"?

The pure rock aspect - sure, I can give you that. But calling it "crawling" is just not applicable for half the stuff that goes on, now is it?

So if they can stretch the meaning of "crawling", why be so set that they can't stretch the definition of "rock"? I just don't see the name of the organization as seltting such hard and fast rules.

Overall, I think it would be good for the sport if they branched out - took it national. More exposure, local interest, etc. Maybe they need separate divisions, maybe they ned a name change - who knows... But somehow working in the east coast terrain and venue into their plans would be just plain GOOD for everyone <IMG SRC="smilies/glasses.gif" border="0">

Lance those were some excellent observations you presented us with in this forum;however, not exactly astute ones. Yes, bob did put on quite a few events.Since you didn't come to them you wouldn't happen to know that in the past Hazel had upwards of 600 vehicles at events..AND now he is having trouble breaking 200 at events.Rumor has it that one event recently had like 50 vehicles.
Lnace were exactly did you come up with the idea that we run in mud..See that whole concept is part of your misguided perceptions about trails in the east..To those living east of the Mississippi the term "riding in mud" refers to MUDHOLES...not rock crawling, or more affectionate term we southerns use is rock racing(( that is a joke ok)because teh terrain we have is rock with a layer of mud about an inch deep on it depending on how much wheel speed is present..People in the east have the same misconceptions about there only being "dry" rocks out west. But, once again since you so eloquently pointed out that ARCA stands for rock crawling...which myself and few others have pointed out lacks excitment to some of us as well the contests are kinda becoming interchnagable with the sam eplayers..BUt, that is fine..As long as it is rock crawling , please keep it..Your right there is not terrain like that on the east.However, the trails we ride locally are not mud..Most of the trails are creekbeds....Creekbed equals rock floor...but, uphill...And as for leaving Tennessee...I do on occassion...But, not to west of say oklahoma or Arkansas.Why? It all boils down to the fact that the terrain is more like what we have here which is what some of us like..Yet, variety is nice on occassions.Unfortunately,Lance you probably won't read this since you packed up your toys and are finished with this thread..But, if you ever are willingly to come this way come on over.

Originally posted by DRM:
<STRONG>No Lance, it is not about rock crawling. It is about rock racing. You yourself posted a picture of a 375 horsepower rig tearing it up to get up that rock face... Was that "crawling"?

The pure rock aspect - sure, I can give you that. But calling it "crawling" is just not applicable for half the stuff that goes on, now is it?

So if they can stretch the meaning of "crawling", why be so set that they can't stretch the definition of "rock"? I just don't see the name of the organization as seltting such hard and fast rules.

Overall, I think it would be good for the sport if they branched out - took it national. More exposure, local interest, etc. Maybe they need separate divisions, maybe they ned a name change - who knows... But somehow working in the east coast terrain and venue into their plans would be just plain GOOD for everyone <IMG SRC="smilies/glasses.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

well put david.. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Lance:
<STRONG>Well for someone who is apparently so hated in the East coast, he sure had a lot of venues in the east coast this year <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> :


Superlift presents Mudstock MO
</STRONG>

Lance, I went to Mudstock. In fact, a close friend of mine was one of TWO mud drivers to be awarded money at that "event" (two weeks earlier, I passed out $10,500 to FORTY drivers elsewhere in MO). Spent one whole day there, and I can honestly say that of the 200+ "organized" 4wd events I've attended since 1980, Mudstock was far & away the biggest waste of money, and far & away the "suckiest" event. Also paid $20 to come in as a spectator. Next highest out of 200+ events was $12 for a day. Mudstock wasn't worth a plugged nickel. BTW, Potosi, MO is about 1,000 miles from the nearest beach, so it's not exactly an "East Coast" venue <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">


For a little more insight on how bad this event was, check out this thread that includes comments not only from me, but also from a volunteer who helped Hazel:
http://www.midwestjeepthing.com/Forums/topic.asp?topic_id=1674&forum_id=5&Topic_Title=Mudstock+is+in+the+magazines&forum_title=General+Discussion+Forum&M=0&S=1


It's sad to say, but just because a group does a lot of events in a lot of places, doesn't mean any of those events are any good. I can think of three very famous promoters that routinely receive positive press - BUT, if you've ever attended anything they've done, you'd know what a total clusterphuck these "events" are.

TEX