http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/630687.html

More bad press. From the article:

"Schambach said many of her friends and neighbors in Georgetown have enjoyed the Rubicon Trail with their families since the 1950s. But many have stopped.

Some, she said, don't like the new approach to trail recreation, which is more about testing suspensions than enjoying the outdoors. Others simply can't access the trail anymore because deep rutting and new boulder obstacles make it too difficult.

"These are people who are off-roaders in the sense that they take their Jeep on the trail. But they have an environmental ethic, too. They love the forest," Schambach said. "Now it's become something totally different."

"

This is a sad Bee article, but typical. I suggest that every Sac Bee subscriber on this board, or otherwise, call the Bee and voice their opinion Monday. We must stop the irresponsible news. I would even go as far as to cancel my subscription if there is not an apology to the community.

What this writer has discribed is every highway in America or the world!:homer:

I think everyone should and write some letters to the editor.I think maybe start writing up all the good the off road community does.:)

Cant read the article without subscribing. No thanks. I can live without the SAPM that follows.

The quote from the article is essentially correct. You may not agree with it, but it stands as what a lot of people think. It used to be a Jeep trail. That is irrefutable fact. It is not now, nor has it been for a decade. Since I didn't read the article, did it talk about the trail now, this summer past ?? Did the author even go up to the trail for themselves to have a look before they reported ???

FWIW, I cancelled the Bee bout 8 years ago when I also switched political parties ......

I read it in my paper this morning at O'dark 30. I have been a bit pissed since. This is typical of Sac Bee reporting standards. "Doom and Gloom". The bee rarely reports positive issues. This article could have very easily highlighted all the good that has taken place, but instead like ususal they report the negatives... They are getting a letter from me this week....: :mad3:
In fact, it would be nice to see everyone on this BB write even a brief response chastising the BEE and their writing staff.

Here is the artice:

For a century, the Rubicon Trail has offered unlimited access to the most challenging off-road driving on Earth. But the boulder-strewn detour to Lake Tahoe is falling victim to its own fame.

Overcrowding and highly modified vehicles are threatening the fragile Sierra surroundings. Instead of a remote driving challenge, the 60-mile on- and off-road trail from Georgetown to Tahoma in recent years is more like a nonstop wagon train of four-wheelers teetering over house-sized boulders.

Where families once tiptoed through in Jeeps for a weekend of camping, they now share the trail with gearheads driving custom rock-crawlers assembled with costly modern suspension technology.

The past decade has seen worsening trail erosion, water contamination, unauthorized shortcutting through meadows, pollution from oil spills and human waste, drunken driving and other illegal and inconsiderate behavior.

"There are law enforcement problems. There are sanitation problems," said Dan Mainwaring, president of Jeepers Jamboree, the famous annual Rubicon tour founded by his father in 1952. "The biggest problem is people who get off the trail and terrorize the trail. They're running over trees, tearing over grass. We need to clean that up."

El Dorado County controls the majority of the trail and is preparing a first-ever management plan for its portion of the route. The Board of Supervisors is expected to adopt a final version this summer.

The plan has been hotly contested by trail users, environmentalists and other forest recreation groups. It also has exposed a rift between old-time Jeepers and a new generation of "extreme" off-roaders.

Many of the new users want to party, not picnic. And for some, the old Rubicon isn't tough enough. Some have demolished rock outcroppings to create bigger obstacles, or created detours to find new challenges.

"There's a huge split between traditional users and extreme users," said Rich Platt, an Eldorado National Forest resource manager for more than 20 years until his retirement last year.

"Even in that 'extreme' group, there's a huge number of responsible users who are unwilling or afraid to speak out. But if they don't start making changes, off-highway vehicle use is really threatened to continue as a sport on public lands."

The Forest Service in 2004 banned vehicles from Spider Lake, a popular camping spot on the trail, because of a growing threat from human feces and garbage left behind by trail users. The agency later banned vehicles from leaving any part of the trail, which is legally only 50 feet wide.

In 2000, the Lahontan Regional Water Quality Control Board threatened to fine Placer County and close its portion of the trail because of erosion into Lake Tahoe. Trail-repair projects by the county and off-roading groups resolved the problem.

But similar concerns exist on the trail's much larger western drainage, which is almost entirely within El Dorado County.

The proposed management plan, which governs only the El Dorado County portion of the trail, aims to control erosion, sanitation and law-breaking problems. Conflict over the plan's two alternatives makes it far from certain the effort will succeed.

The more comprehensive proposal, labeled "environmentally preferred" by the plan's consultant, requires the county to adopt a trail permit and user fee system. This would create a formal code of behavior and reliable income for restoration and law enforcement.

It also allows the county to impose a daily access quota and seasonal closures if monitoring shows continued damage.

The Forest Service supports this alternative, as does Mainwaring of the Jeepers Jamboree. He compares the proposed permit system to one proven successful for river rafting in the Grand Canyon.

"The Rubicon Trail is the most famous trail in the world," he said. "If you don't take care of it, it's not going to be there forever."

But a powerful faction of the off-roading community objects. Instead, groups such as Friends of the Rubicon and the Rubicon Trail Foundation favor a less restrictive alternative that doesn't require permits and fees, and would not allow quotas or seasonal closures.

"There's all sorts of practical concerns about implementing restrictions," said Randy Burleson, president of the Rubicon Trail Foundation. "With good management, education and enforcement, I'm not sure we're ever going to get to a point where that's required."

Others say that without a permit system to collect fees, the county will never be able to pay for the extensive restoration needed to protect water quality. Nor will it be able to pay for a significant increase in law enforcement that is overdue on the trail.

"We believe a fee structure is needed to fully implement all elements of the plan," said Bill Marshall, section chief of the Central Valley Regional Water Quality Control Board. The board monitors pollution in the Rubicon watershed, which feeds the American River.


A traditional Rubicon trip involves a street-legal Jeep or Landcruiser vehicle. It usually travels one way, typically starting in Georgetown and returning on highways 50 or 80.

But many of the new vehicles are not street-legal and arrive at the trailhead on trailers. This means they often travel out and back on the Rubicon, doubling environmental impacts and requiring them to veer off-track to bypass other vehicles.

Internet video-sharing Web sites such as YouTube are loaded with scenes of irresponsible behavior on the Rubicon. Vehicle rollovers are celebrated. Oil and fuel spills inevitably follow.

Some users even engage in a practice called "stacking," in which vehicles are driven on top of another that has rolled over.

"There are always some idiots," Burleson acknowledged. "But trail-user responsibility has gone up significantly through county and volunteer education programs."

No one is calling for the trail to be closed. But Platt and others believe neither of the proposals goes far enough.

Karen Schambach, a Georgetown resident and California director of Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, said the county should allow only street-legal vehicles on the trail. And seasonal closures should be mandatory, she said, to prevent damage when the trail is wet and erosion is likely.

Surrounding trails managed by the Eldorado National Forest are already subject to seasonal closure, and she said there's no reason the Rubicon should be different.

Schambach said many of her friends and neighbors in Georgetown have enjoyed the Rubicon Trail with their families since the 1950s. But many have stopped.

Some, she said, don't like the new approach to trail recreation, which is more about testing suspensions than enjoying the outdoors. Others simply can't access the trail anymore because deep rutting and new boulder obstacles make it too difficult.

"These are people who are off-roaders in the sense that they take their Jeep on the trail. But they have an environmental ethic, too. They love the forest," Schambach said. "Now it's become something totally different."

Schambach is no friend of the off-roader.

Remember how good the trips with the USFS folks and the trip with the
Off road Commission members did for the efforts of the trail. Maybe a trip is in order for this reporter and his editor? This reporter is listening to Platt/Schambach and their false accusations. Also, what Dan Mainwaring is saying IS NOT the view of the entire Jeepers Jamboree ownership, It is his view.

Remember how good the trips with the USFS folks and the trip with the
Off road Commission members did for the efforts of the trail. Maybe a trip is in order for this reporter and his editor? This reporter is listening to Platt/Schambach and their false accusations. Also, what Dan Mainwaring is saying IS NOT the view of the entire Jeepers Jamboree ownership, It is his view.

The trip is a great idea. I'm in!

I consider Dan a friend, and he is sincere, but we disagree on this. Irresponsible use is caused by irresponsible users, not someone with a certain horsepower vehicle or certain size tire or certain height suspension.

In regards to the map in the article. Can anyone tell me how much of the trail is paved coming from georgetoen ? In the map it appeears as if it is all trail ?

I was thinking the same thing, a trip could go a long way to opening some eyes for the author of the article. That said, there has to be way better company than myself for the venture. .. :blender::blender::blender: I hope I don't rub ya'll the wrong way, as I come from the 33-inch school, smog legal, street legal, former daily driver side of the ridge. But, if Randii says responsibly driven 38"s behind a V-8 on coils dont rip anymore than my my weenie-peenie rubber, Jap-Crap leafy sprung near stock rig, then I'm believin.

I"m 53 yrs old I been on the con since 1965 IN my opinion that trail looks pretty DAM GOOD for all the traffic it has seen !!! personally I"m sick & tried of people telling me & kicking me !! ( can"t burn in my fireplace @ home !) and now telling me what my 4x4 has to be !! Screw them !! personally I feel sorry for the young guys , all the stuff I liked to do shoot guns & go wheeling is being taken away from us !

and yes I did protest in placerville to keep are trails open !!
Sacramento BEE can suck my @#@#

Sacramento BEE can suck my @#@#

Amen. All the Bee does is pander to the liberal left who would see all recreation banished from our public lands. And X1,000,000 on the fact that they are slanted towards bad news all the time.

I challenge the author to post up Youtube videos of irresponsible use of the Rubicon

im sorry but wtf am i missing that you guys all pissed off?

1 what is untrue?

2 how is this a negative article? it is pointing out how some people dont go any more because there vehicles cant make the trail, yeah they closed the by passes. there is a lot of extreme vehicles now, they go because its hard , they arent making it harder.

3 it makes mention of both sides of the trail plan

4 they mention that there are lots of responcible wheelers

5 even if you dont like some of the quote the author uses, they are the 3rd party opinios.

i dont see this as a bad news article, just an article. do you think that this article is going to carry any weight anywhere? this stuff is not news, its just the newest collection of the facts.

The article just isn't good. The whole "stacking" vehicles, cheering roll-overs, leaking oil and fuel, none of that makes the off-roaders look good. Maybe you fail to see the point of this article(by the way how was webwheeling last night) They don't mention the rescue efforts, clean-ups, patrols and all efforts done. They fail to mention that the wheelers are the ones maintaining it, and wanting to keep it open. The trail is is way better shape now than it has been in years, but no one says that... This article fails to represent wheelers as anything but alcohol driven horsepower junkies...as if we put big tires on just to dig ruts!!! By the way when was the last time anyone was tiping there jeep on a house sized boulder?Come awn if you dont get it you never will..........BTW the rubicon is not a trail it is a county road just unmaintained..............except for the wheeling community:)

Someone really needs to write up the rescue and send it in.

Include all of the offered help from Pirate4x4, etc.







.

The article just isn't good. The whole "stacking" vehicles, cheering roll-overs, leaking oil and fuel, none of that makes the off-roaders look good. Maybe you fail to see the point of this article(by the way how was webwheeling last night) They don't mention the rescue efforts, clean-ups, patrols and all efforts done. They fail to mention that the wheelers are the ones maintaining it, and wanting to keep it open. The trail is is way better shape now than it has been in years, but no one says that... This article fails to represent wheelers as anything but alcohol driven horsepower junkies...as if we put big tires on just to dig ruts!!! By the way when was the last time anyone was tiping there jeep on a house sized boulder?Come awn if you dont get it you never will..........BTW the rubicon is not a trail it is a county road just unmaintained..............except for the wheeling community:)

but what about it is untrue? it happens you can not deny it.

you are right there where no mentions of the clean ups and repair done by all and fotr, but thats not what the article was about was it.

it does not repesent all wheelrs and alcohol fueled hp junkies, it says that they exist, "There are always some idiots," Burleson acknowledged. "But trail-user responsibility has gone up significantly through county and volunteer education programs."
did you not see this part?

A traditional Rubicon trip involves a street-legal Jeep or Landcruiser vehicle. It usually travels one way, typically starting in Georgetown and returning on highways 50 or 80.

But many of the new vehicles are not street-legal and arrive at the trailhead on trailers. This means they often travel out and back on the Rubicon, doubling environmental impacts and requiring them to veer off-track to bypass other vehicles.

Internet video-sharing Web sites such as YouTube are loaded with scenes of irresponsible behavior on the Rubicon. Vehicle rollovers are celebrated. Oil and fuel spills inevitably follow.

Some users even engage in a practice called "stacking," in which vehicles are driven on top of another that has rolled over.


i am not trying to start a pissing contest, but you are making out alot worse than it is. this is not a ban the 4x4 article, it is not all 4x4 with bbc abd 44"s are destorying the trail, it is an article point out what every body knows and is trying to stop and keeping the trail open, it also points out that the stock vehicle users that like camping up there because it was quite, now it is not to there liking.

if you like to stay up all night shooting of guns and fire works, drinking, pulling donuts in the feilds and generaly being a campsite hee haw then i can see how this is a bad article for you.

and mew you, i dont like web wheeling, i was a sleep by 9pm, and im sorry i cant afford to build my truck as fast as you would like.

p.s i am not drunk, i am however a horrible at speeling and typing so bite me.

Why dont you read some of the comments left on sacbee's comment page for this article........would you like to be charged a permit fee,or a deposit,or how about higher registration and lets not forget only street legal vehicles(oh yes I will as well as law enforcement be able to find something on your rig to be considered non street legal)?.About permits lets just say this happens,your friends live in the bay area and you live in Chico.Example=Due to the lottery/permit process you get picked for april/may/june and your friends get picked for july/august/september with closures in the winter due to erosion control.These are comments that our opponents are using maybe you just dont "get it" see the article on the sac bees page and look for the alternatives (2 metioned)for the supervisors.Btw 50 ft. total easement if your off the trail I will report you or others the forest is closed to vehicles--------keep public land public right? I did not protest and write letters for nothing.

The article just isn't good. The whole "stacking" vehicles, cheering roll-overs, leaking oil and fuel, none of that makes the off-roaders look good. Maybe you fail to see the point of this article(by the way how was webwheeling last night) They don't mention the rescue efforts, clean-ups, patrols and all efforts done. They fail to mention that the wheelers are the ones maintaining it, and wanting to keep it open. The trail is is way better shape now than it has been in years, but no one says that... This article fails to represent wheelers as anything but alcohol driven horsepower junkies...as if we put big tires on just to dig ruts!!! By the way when was the last time anyone was tiping there jeep on a house sized boulder?Come awn if you dont get it you never will..........BTW the rubicon is not a trail it is a county road just unmaintained..............except for the wheeling community:)

ignorance is bliss for the media.... drama sells... feel good stories don't follow the destructive course the libs are forcing on the world.

How about those of us on the other side of this start our own periodical or maybe just an editorial in the existing offending newspapers. That would be more cost effective than our own.

Its a COUNTY road trkklr not a trail do some research.I can trailer my jeep to the trailhead and as long as I pay my registration and stay within the 50 ft. there is nothing anyone can do,heck I dont even want to start stating what you can actually do in an easement(give people bad ideas) the jambo. pays for a parade pass to shut the road down.If you need a ride out there I can take you and Mr.writer and show you the non-horrible destruction of the trail.The article is talking about the days of old ,I have not seen the problems in years.Also when have you seen a hiker or anyone doing maintenance except for the wheeling community or guests.

thats why i asked...

i did not know that that was the permit system that is purposed. i dont like it. but why is it so horrible? they have been doing it with hunting for how many decades, and it has worked. do you think there would be any deer, bear or mountian lions left they hadnt regulated it?

i dont like that street legal only rule, but is that the focus of the article?

i would have no problem paying a small fee , if it helps keep the trail open. sorry you are such a cheap bastard. we all pay fees to wheel at places like praire city, hollister hills, attica indiana, paragon, and how many other ohv parks. when was the last time they were shut down because of sanitation? get over it, do you really think this article is going to be the death of the rubi.

You really dont get it,why dont you pay the govt. more money because you live on a street that only three people live on,but people down the street with 10 dont pay a dime for road maintenance its called taxes we all pay the same.If you need to be couped up in a regulated off highway park then so be it(its what were heading towards).We need to start doing something with the media.I am sure the other side is calling everyday trying to get someone to write up an article on the trail.We should do the same, start calling ch.3/10/13 everytime anyone does anything good on the trail .....ever.Also the county will chew up the permit fees with officers,equipment and other B.S you will never see much improvement on the trail.Then users will not help maintenance it due to the fees and soon D.O.T will take over and pave the thing.I dont want to explain to my children why its not the same as when I went up as a kid.It only takes one article to make the wrong impression and if you dont think its important then stay at prairie city and get kicked out at dark.

Its a COUNTY road trkklr not a trail do some research.I can trailer my crap to the trailhead and as long as I pay my registration and stay within the 50 ft. there is nothing anyone can do,heck I dont even want to start stating what you can actually do in an easement(give people bad ideas).If you need a ride out there I can take you and Mr.writer and show you the non-horrible destruction of the trail.The article is talking about the days of old ,I have not seen the problems in years.

so which is it, you call it a county road and the next sentence its a trail. roads dont have trail heads. roads have intersections. if it is a county road then wtf make anybody think they can drive non registerd vehicles on it at all.

i dont need to go up there with you, i have been up there. i have seen the "road" for myself i know what it looks like.

i didnt say there was nothing i could do about it. i know there is lots of options. clean ups, voulenteer patrols......... why do you think i am builing my truck the way i am, for recovery, repair and helping in as many ways as i can. i hate seeing the trashed and abandond vehicle threads. but untill my truck is completed there is very little i can to to help in those situations.

You really dont get it,why dont you pay the govt. more money because you live on a street that only three people live on,but people down the street with 10 dont pay a dime its called taxes.If you need to be couped up in a regulated off highway park then so be it.We need to start doing something with the media.I am sure the other side is calling everday trying to get someone to write up an article on the trail.We should do the same, start calling ch.3/10/13 everytime anyone does anything good on the trail .....ever.

yes, we should, i sure it would have been a great thing to get the media in on the trail rescue. and in on any clean up too.

I think it's great that everyone has ideas, and wants the Rubicon to stay open. I think what's bad about the article is that it fails to portray the majority of off-roaders/users. Most of us are here to help with rescues, to help mothers stay at ease that someone is looking out for there family. I am with you especially about Spider, but hasn't that gotten a lot better? I just wish that the drama didn't sell more than the heartwarming did. Off-roading is a great way to get the family outside, out of the daily grind, back to where we grew up, the paper never says that. I don't consider myself cheap for not wanting fees...I would like to know what fees will cover...I have to pay to drive my car on the road, I have to pay to camp, I have to pay pay pay and I do...because my wife and kids and I love to wheel and camp. This article is just one more person who thinks throwing money at something fixes it. The 4x4 community has proven in the last few years that we can change our wild reputation and pitch in to help keep the trails clean and functioning.

I'll follow this up directly with Matt Weiser, the author of this article. I've already got his contact information from when he interviewed me.

I'll hit the highlights (lowlights?) of this article... feel free to use any of these points in your own responses to the editor or the author.

Overcrowding and highly modified vehicles are threatening the fragile Sierra surroundings.
2003 was the peak traffic on the trail, and subsequent years have gotten much better.

Instead of a remote driving challenge, the 60-mile on- and off-road trail from Georgetown to Tahoma in recent years is more like a nonstop wagon train of four-wheelers teetering over house-sized boulders.
This is complete hogwash -- though it may not be the solitary experience that it used to be, Rubicon continues to be a fabulous way to get back into the woods, and experience natural beauty with a few buddies or family members. Certain spots of the trail have higher-density gathering places and camping areas, but that's a legitimate use, as well -- much like alpine skiers congregate around the Loon Lake Chalet or hikers congregate at Horshoe Falls.

Where families once tiptoed through in Jeeps for a weekend of camping, they now share the trail with gearheads driving custom rock-crawlers assembled with costly modern suspension technology.
...and for the most part, these familes and gearheads SHARE well, as they are often one and the same. Merlin Scott, a Community Service Officer for the El Dorado Sheriff's Department, assigned to the Rubicon, said "Noticeably, families, wives, and children are returning to the Rubicon."

The past decade has seen worsening trail erosion, water contamination, unauthorized shortcutting through meadows, pollution from oil spills and human waste, drunken driving and other illegal and inconsiderate behavior.
This is simply not the case. Certainly some of these problems have occurred, but they have been addressed by organized volunteerism and some support from the agencies. In any case, by any numbers, the situation is remarkably improved over the last few years.

Dan Mainwaring (said) "The biggest problem is people who get off the trail and terrorize the trail. They're running over trees, tearing over grass. We need to clean that up."
Dan is right that this problem behavior needs addressed -- the key is with appropriate enforcement, and this is why Friends of the Rubicon established a volunteer Rubicon Trail Patrol, why the Off Highway Motor Vehicle Rescreation Division provided grants to fund enforcement, why Eldorado National Forest added Forest Protection Officers, and why El Dorado County has increased patrols on the county road that is Rubicon.

The plan has been hotly contested by trail users, environmentalists and other forest recreation groups.
It has been contested through years of involvement, but environmental advocates and forest service representatives have sadly NOT stayed in the game for the duration. Instead of working the process, Karen Schambach and the like have worked to circumvent the collaborative process, as witnessed by her sporadic attendance at the workgroup for trail issues, the Rubicon Oversight Committee.

It also has exposed a rift between old-time Jeepers and a new generation of "extreme" off-roaders.
Much has been reported of this alleged rift, yet very few individuals can be found to support this minority opinion.

Some have demolished rock outcroppings to create bigger obstacles, or created detours to find new challenges.
This behavior is a part of the past, and the problems resulting from it would never have advanced had the agencies been more active in law enforcement. The law enforcement efforts in place today combine with the enhanced volunteerism, responsibile recreation education, and Rubicon Trail Patrol to minimize these challenges going forward, and Friends of the Rubicon has worked well in partnership with the agencies to begin repairing some of the damage.

"There's a huge split between traditional users and extreme users," said Rich Platt, an Eldorado National Forest resource manager for more than 20 years until his retirement last year.
Here again, much is reported of an alleged split, yet very few individuals can be found to support this minority opinion... Rich Platt is a member of a vocal minority trying to gen up support for this theory. Interestingly, it was during his tenure that Rubicon suffered such neglect and disregard from his agency. He's repeating history by stopping attendance to the Rubicon Oversight Committee, where trail solutions can best be attained.

"Even in that 'extreme' group, there's a huge number of responsible users who are unwilling or afraid to speak out. But if they don't start making changes, off-highway vehicle use is really threatened to continue as a sport on public lands."
Platt knows very well that Friends of the Rubicon contains many responsible users of every kind, as he worked with FOTR through the last 5-6 years of his tenure.

The Forest Service in 2004 banned vehicles from Spider Lake, a popular camping spot on the trail, because of a growing threat from human feces and garbage left behind by trail users.
...and yet no substantive numbers were ever measured to prove contamination.

The agency later banned vehicles from leaving any part of the trail, which is legally only 50 feet wide.
The Forest Service did this as part of the national Route Designation process, implemented in Region 5. This has *NOTHING* to do with the Rubicon Trail and its users -- it is just a side effect of Forest Service regional and national policy.

In 2000, the Lahontan Regional Water Quality Control Board threatened to fine Placer County and close its portion of the trail because of erosion into Lake Tahoe. Trail-repair projects by the county and off-roading groups resolved the problem.
This is probably the best-reported paragraph in the article -- Kudos!

But similar concerns exist on the trail's much larger western drainage, which is almost entirely within El Dorado County.
This is supposition, almost entirely, and panic whupped up by a few anti-recreationists generating propaganda based on the few, most-impacted sections of the trail, with pictures selected to inflame, rather than inform. Instead of working the process collaboratively, within the Rubicon Oversight Committee, these anti-recreationists are working outside established process to attack and slander recreation... with very little science to back up their claims. An example is the claimed oil contamination of watersheds, fully disproved by water sampling executed in preparation for development of the Rubicon Trail Master Plan.

The more comprehensive proposal, labeled "environmentally preferred" by the plan's consultant, requires the county to adopt a trail permit and user fee system. This would create a formal code of behavior and reliable income for restoration and law enforcement.
The 'more comprehensive plan' is so laden with requirements and specifics as to be entirely unimplementable. The fee structures are vague and the reservation system it requires would be costly and complicated.

"The Rubicon Trail is the most famous trail in the world," he said. "If you don't take care of it, it's not going to be there forever."
I very much agree with Dan Mainwaring on this, but we respectfully differ on how much oversight is required to keep Rubicon open forever.

Instead, groups such as Friends of the Rubicon and the Rubicon Trail Foundation favor a less restrictive alternative that doesn't require permits and fees, and would not allow quotas or seasonal closures.
Responsible recreationists favor a practical, implementable system, as outlined in Alternative B. This outline leaves the County latitude to adapt and adjust in delivery of a reasonable system, where Alternative A is so structured that few adjustments could be completed after passage. Fees and reservations may eventually be required, but that's a ten-year plan, to be realized only after realistic traffic counts can be made.

A traditional Rubicon trip involves a street-legal Jeep or Landcruiser vehicle. It usually travels one way, typically starting in Georgetown and returning on highways 50 or 80.
I'm not sure who determines this 'tradition,' as users have historically entered not only from Wentworth Springs, but also via Lake McKinstry, Loon Lake, Barker Pass, and Lake Tahoe. The Jamborees are an important piece of our tradition, but they are not the only history... think of Vic Wikander, who regularly went in from the East to Buck Island Reservoir, and then back out to the West, or the Hunsuckers, who built their hotel in Rubicon Springs from goods brought primarily from round trips to Lake Tahoe.

But many of the new vehicles are not street-legal and arrive at the trailhead on trailers. This means they often travel out and back on the Rubicon, doubling environmental impacts and requiring them to veer off-track to bypass other vehicles.
The Rubicon is wide enough to sustain vehicle passing -- in fact, vehicles have passed for years. Few parts of the trail are wide enough for two-way traffic, but safe pull-outs abound -- as noted earlier in the article, the right-of-way is 50 feet wide!

Internet video-sharing Web sites such as YouTube are loaded with scenes of irresponsible behavior on the Rubicon.
The sites are even more loaded with scenes of responsible recreation... yet the Sacramento Bee reports none of that. :rolleyes:

"There are always some idiots," Burleson acknowledged. "But trail-user responsibility has gone up significantly through county and volunteer education programs."
I spoke to soon. THIS must be the best-reported paragraph in the article! :p

Karen Schambach... said the county should allow only street-legal vehicles on the trail. And seasonal closures should be mandatory, she said, to prevent damage when the trail is wet and erosion is likely.
Schambach lobbies for restrictions, but she does not base them on accurate vehicle counts or clear science. Perhaps this is why she is selling restrictions so early, before any of the RTMP metrics or counts can be attained -- she must be worried that REAL numbers won't support her ultra-restrictive agenda.

Surrounding trails managed by the Eldorado National Forest are already subject to seasonal closure, and she said there's no reason the Rubicon should be different.
This is quite a mis-statement. Though other area trails are subject to snow depth limitations, they are hardly closed. Motorized use is welcome as long as there is 12" of snow on the ground -- a fairly low bar with average snow depths well over 8 times that!

I won't respond to more of Schambach's stuff. It frustrates me that she'll spend so much time with an interviewer, and so little time attending the Rubicon Oversight Committee, where trail solutions can best be attained. She's willing to work around the established process, but not work through it.

It reflects poorly on the Bee that they spent so much time with anti-recreation resources, and such little time with responsible recreation advocates... I'll follow up with Matt to encourage a more balanced follow-up, and suggest that others do, as well.

Randii

Agreed I found the article one sided also. I like the tactic of pitting offroaders against one another that the author used also. Divide and conquor if you will..

We will never get anywhere divided(the other side isnt)if we all cant agree on the topic then we will fail.:(...............I hate failing.

Divided we will fall/fail.Sorry for the rants earlier , its just hard for me to have others not see the "light".We have got to get it together people.

Reasonable letters to the editor, or emails to the author or his management, are most appropriate! I'll drudge up some addresses for this in a bit...

That's a short-term strategy, though -- long-term, we need to get the author, and perhaps his editor on the trail, where they can recognize the general health of the Rubicon with their own eyes. Most reasonable individuals, when toured the length of the trail, quickly see that the overall trail is in good shape, and the short stretches that need work are receiving it.

Why they don't print the press releases we send them is another question... hmmm... I think I'll forward the last few years of them to the author and his editor to see if they'll run balanced coverage on Rubicon Trail, our unmaintained county road.

Randii

Reasonable letters to the editor, or emails to the author or his management, are most appropriate! I'll drudge up some addresses for this in a bit...

That's a short-term strategy, though -- long-term, we need to get the author, and perhaps his editor on the trail, where they can recognize the general health of the Rubicon with their own eyes. Most reasonable individuals, when toured the length of the trail, quickly see that the overall trail is in good shape, and the short stretches that need work are receiving it.

Why they don't print the press releases we send them is another question... hmmm... I think I'll forward the last few years of them to the author and his editor to see if they'll run balanced coverage on Rubicon Trail, our unmaintained county road.

Randii

For the editors/writer.The most quite time when I was out on the trail this year was july4th weekend.Was at the box the majority of the time.I had only seen a few (10 at the most) in the five days I was there.Wierd to say the least,since I had seen more every other time I had been there.(total of 6-8 times during the summer..... some with trail patrol some without)trail use in general has been declinnig in the past few years IMO.

Responsible recreationists favor a practical, implementable system, as outlined in Alternative A. This outline leaves the County latitude to adapt and adjust in delivery of a reasonable system, where Alternative A is so structured that few adjustments could be completed after passage.

That first Alt should be "Alt B".

Alternative B is practical and implementable.




Doug

That first Alt should be "Alt B".

Alternative B is practical and implementable.
Fixed -- thanks for the good eye, Doug!

Randii

Reasonable letters to the editor, or emails to the author or his management, are most appropriate! I'll drudge up some addresses for this in a bit...
Here's the form to auto-submit 200-word letters to the editor from online: http://www.sacbee.com/326/story/19629.html

To submit a longer article, you e-mail it to: opinion@sacbee.com.

For best results, I suggest using the above links, but here are a few addresses (from http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/ ) if you have a more specific comment on editorial stance.
* David Holwerk - Editorial Pages Editor - (916) 321-1851 (dholwerk@sacbee.com)
* Maria Henson - Deputy Editorial Page Editor - (916) 321-1907(mhenson@sacbee.com)
* Bill Moore - Letters Editor - (916) 321-1905 (bmoore@sacbee.com)
* Gary Reed -- Forum Editor - (916) 321-1909 (greed@sacbee.com)

Randii

Thanks for getting this Randii:)

Well I'm sure many people here won't agree with my words because I am me and that seems to cause friction because I used to ride wheelies on street bikes. Just so you know... here's what I sent them since I truely believe it. :flipoff2:


To Whom it may concern,
As an avid member of the off-road community I found your story about the rubicon very "one-sided". The green movement is riddled with many lies that the general public absorbs like a sponge. This places our sport and hobby (in my case business/livelyhood) in constant jeopardy. We have enough trouble simply fighting to keep trails open, nevermind the destructive efforts of bad press polluting our situation further.
The jist of your letter says that modern day 4x4 enthusiasts are irresponsible, wreckless, and destructive. Maybe 5% are.
If I grouped you with the small percentage of ignorant, wreckless writers and broadcasted that to the world, I imagine you would be just as irritated.
The reason you have this one-sided view is a result of the rediculous agenda of the environmentalists. They whine until they get their way, where as the off-road community is only now realizing we have to expose their lies and voice our side before the whole world believes global warming is coming to get us, and that big tires are created by the devil in order to destroy the wilderness. Why don't we focus on the good we do rather than the bad?

comments instructions (I didn't know what this was for) :D
??? stop the hatred of off-roaders and maybe ask the greenies to support their theories rather than just taking what they spew for fact????

Here's the form to auto-submit 200-word letters to the editor from online: http://www.sacbee.com/326/story/19629.html

To submit a longer article, you e-mail it to: opinion@sacbee.com.

For best results, I suggest using the above links, but here are a few addresses (from http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/ ) if you have a more specific comment on editorial stance.
* David Holwerk - Editorial Pages Editor - (916) 321-1851 (dholwerk@sacbee.com)
* Maria Henson - Deputy Editorial Page Editor - (916) 321-1907(mhenson@sacbee.com)
* Bill Moore - Letters Editor - (916) 321-1905 (bmoore@sacbee.com)
* Gary Reed -- Forum Editor - (916) 321-1909 (greed@sacbee.com)

Randii


Make sure you register first before you waste time typing :D

Luckily I had it copied lol

I too thought the article to be very one-sided and full of disinformation. Right now our community is under the microscope, so it is very important that we be on our best behavior and go above and beyond when it comes to tread lightly, especially in places where occasional 4 wheelers are present. Events sponsored be the big clubs should not be rock crawling free for alls. I just happened to check out the Greenhorn 2008 thread http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=647378 and saw exactly what the article says is happening. Come on guys lets not give the "greenies" more ammo.


This kind of stuff sets us back.

edited by cruzila

I was not in attendance but the people that were should of said something.That place has sooooo many people that time of the year and this while might not be all that illegal still doesnt make us look good.It only takes a picture and booooooom back on the front page,I sure hope they are able to keep greenhorn open by the looks of it .......it will be real hard.:(

I dont know what you guys are thinking, but that is not a negative article-just a statement of facts. You cannot convice me that most of you guys are going out there to enjoy the nature. Many are there to just rip around the rocks and assess how their crazy buggy works on the rocks. Sure, the trail is in great condition for the traffic across, but i can see where the story is coming from. Dont jump on my ass about being a new guy around the trail, because im not, ive seen the progress of the trail going from a place of enjoyment and observation, to a place for buggies. Ive been on the trail longer then since some of you were born. Flame on. :shaking:

So you agree that the trail is getting better?If you have been around a long time then you have seen rock bottom(no pun intended) which IMO was a few years ago with the T.P. and you have been there this year correct and seen how clean the place is?I think the major difference between our "newly seperated groups" is that the trail keeps getting harder due to erosion,nature and users .What I feel was a pretty easy ride with 33-35" tires is now the min. and bigger tires which is not doing anymore damage than small(bigger= less throttle to get over obsticles and hanging with spinning tires)................bigger is the norm.We have all got to get on the same page on this......do we want the trail the same it was 10,20 or 30 years ago or should we let it run its course and deal with the issues that will shut it down(erosion-uninformed users-neo-enviromentalists)

In some ways the trail is getting better, but in many ways its becoming worse. Sure, there is more awareness now and it was super clean this year, but it is getting harder and harder every single year. A week after Jeep Jambo, i found the trail hard to cruise down, even with a more than capable rig. This is why the older types, like in the article, are complaining. They didnt go to the trail for the hardcore wheeling, they went to enjoy nature, just like me. This is what i thought 4 wheeling was about-enjoying yourself out there, not battling rocks on every corner.

I would not say your correct when refering to the tire size issue. The smaller the tires, the less surface area used and that usually goes along with a smaller motor that isnt capable of ripping the trail up as much as the other, which im explaining next. The larger tire, the more surface area used up, and to push those large tires, more power is needed, and those tires go hand and hand with a large engine. But it is not always the rig-the driver is the most defining issue. With a driver on full throttle, it doesnt matter what size of tire and engine, it will still rip the shat out of the trail. There is no going back to the old days-the 4 wheeling culture has changed.

I have 42's with a 4.0L and an auto.I actually went to this tire size to make it easier on me personally so I could enjoy the wilderness,not fighting rocks around every corner.No I do not need to throttle everywhere I go ,I have geared my jeep to the tire size so the larger engine=bigger tire thing just doesnt work for me.

I aslo went to this tire size so that I could do the obsticles that have bypasses.Little sluice and big sluice are some of these obsticles.I just want to know something as well,when/if the loon lake entrance is shutdown and there is guidelines on the original trail what is going to happen when we all take wentworth.The bypass up the hill after the C.G. is going to be closed and the other on (I think ambulance hill) .....and we have to go between the huge rocks near the top?I have a hard time with 42's and before that 38's wouldnt make it.Are we going to make it a winch point/new gatekeeper?

Just a perdiction I have.As well as having to take big sluice /little sluice........we only have 25' from the center of the original trail to the edge.We have got to somehow come to a common agreement together,without it I fear there is going to be restrictions/fees/fines .I have other perdictions for the trail but will keep them to myself I had old ones but most have already come true......

I have 42's with a 4.0L and an auto.I actually went to this tire size to make it easier on me personally so I could enjoy the wilderness,not fighting rocks around every corner.No I do not need to throttle everywhere I go ,I have geared my jeep to the tire size so the larger engine=bigger tire thing just doesnt work for me.

I aslo went to this tire size so that I could do the obsticles that have bypasses.Little sluice and big sluice are some of these obsticles.I just want to know something as well,when/if the loon lake entrance is shutdown and there is guidelines on the original trail what is going to happen when we all take wentworth.The bypass up the hill after the C.G. is going to be closed and the other on (I think ambulance hill) .....and we have to go between the huge rocks near the top?I have a hard time with 42's and before that 38's wouldnt make it.Are we going to make it a winch point/new gatekeeper?

Just a perdiction I have.As well as having to take big sluice /little sluice........we only have 25' from the center of the original trail to the edge.We have got to somehow come to a common agreement together,without it I fear there is going to be restrictions/fees/fines .I have other perdictions for the trail but will keep them to myself I had old ones but most have already come true......

well said. big tires, good flex, lockers = low impact if used properly. I love wheeling, camping, and partying..... if I solely loved wilderness I'd probably go somewhere that vehicles aren't allowed. Unfortunately you can't get environmentalists to do/think that. They're like every drama soap opera rolled into one and love to get into everyone's business until everyone is walking around w/ a rainbow cape on :)

Remember how good the trips with the USFS folks and the trip with the
Off road Commission members did for the efforts of the trail. Maybe a trip is in order for this reporter and his editor? This reporter is listening to Platt/Schambach and their false accusations. Also, what Dan Mainwaring is saying IS NOT the view of the entire Jeepers Jamboree ownership, It is his view.

It's just the same old crap that we've been fighting for years now. We do have one advantage, and that is their message has never evolved as we rebut it, and they don't appear to be getting any smarter. That being said, I would be down to give one of them a ride for one simple purpose. They keep bringing up the point that its impassible to anything but extreme lifted vehicles. I'm 2 inches over stock on 33's and I have no trouble with the trail :shaking:

I gave them my two cents...or rather 199 words. I hope everyone does the same.

done-----plus a couple comments

I dont know what you guys are thinking, but that is not a negative article-just a statement of facts. You cannot convice me that most of you guys are going out there to enjoy the nature. Many are there to just rip around the rocks and assess how their crazy buggy works on the rocks. Sure, the trail is in great condition for the traffic across, but i can see where the story is coming from. Dont jump on my ass about being a new guy around the trail, because im not, ive seen the progress of the trail going from a place of enjoyment and observation, to a place for buggies. Ive been on the trail longer then since some of you were born. Flame on. :shaking:

In some ways the trail is getting better, but in many ways its becoming worse. Sure, there is more awareness now and it was super clean this year, but it is getting harder and harder every single year. A week after Jeep Jambo, i found the trail hard to cruise down, even with a more than capable rig. This is why the older types, like in the article, are complaining. They didnt go to the trail for the hardcore wheeling, they went to enjoy nature, just like me. This is what i thought 4 wheeling was about-enjoying yourself out there, not battling rocks on every corner.

I would not say your correct when refering to the tire size issue. The smaller the tires, the less surface area used and that usually goes along with a smaller motor that isnt capable of ripping the trail up as much as the other, which im explaining next. The larger tire, the more surface area used up, and to push those large tires, more power is needed, and those tires go hand and hand with a large engine. But it is not always the rig-the driver is the most defining issue. With a driver on full throttle, it doesnt matter what size of tire and engine, it will still rip the shat out of the trail. There is no going back to the old days-the 4 wheeling culture has changed.


Wow you can even see the trail from atop your high horse?:eek: This is such a moronic argument your jeep is highly modified, they used to take model T's through the rubicon, so should we not let anything but model t's through? No! Duh! I have seen flatfenders bone stock go all the way through with no problems before. I have both extremes of the two I have a full buggy and a mild wrangler that I drive there! And I have been going there since I was born for the last 26 years and seen the EVOLUTION of the trail! Yes thats right things do evolve and change over time, the trail changes so do the vehicles! If you want to go enjoy nature away from a buggy with tires bigger than yours then GO SOMEWHERE ELSE duh.:shaking:

Wow you can even see the trail from atop your high horse?:eek: This is such a moronic argument your jeep is highly modified, they used to take model T's through the rubicon, so should we not let anything but model t's through? No! Duh! I have seen flatfenders bone stock go all the way through with no problems before. I have both extremes of the two I have a full buggy and a mild wrangler that I drive there! And I have been going there since I was born for the last 26 years and seen the EVOLUTION of the trail! Yes thats right things do evolve and change over time, the trail changes so do the vehicles! If you want to go enjoy nature away from a buggy with tires bigger than yours then GO SOMEWHERE ELSE duh.:shaking:

You are a fine example of the kind of tards that will get the trail shutdown. I never said i had a "highly modified" jeep, just one that is fully capable. Dont try to put words in my mouth, because what i have just said has dismissed your whole statement. Please, you have not seen the trail "evolving". You were a kid or a teen for most of the years you were on the trail. You dont go for the enjoyment of nature-you go to rip the pee pee out of the rocks, just like most people of buggies. I know the trail changes, sure, and that rigs are different, but that does not account for everything. It is mostly about the driver, and you put a abominable name on the buggy and younger wheeler community. Get a clue before you act all deific. :shaking:

You are a fine example of the kind of tards that will get the trail shutdown. I never said i had a "highly modified" jeep, just one that is fully capable. Dont try to put words in my mouth, because what i have just said has dismissed your whole statement. Please, you have not seen the trail "evolving". You were a kid or a teen for most of the years you were on the trail. You dont go for the enjoyment of nature-you go to rip the shit out of the rocks, just like most people of buggies. I know the trail changes, sure, and that rigs are different, but that does not account for everything. It is mostly about the driver, and you put a abominable name on the buggy and younger wheeler community. Get a clue before you act all deific. :shaking:

Wow, just wow.... thats just amazing. I am in the same boat as TCarp in that I have been enjoying the Rubicon since I was born too. 31 years old now. To say that we have not seen the evolution of the Rubicon is a pretty false statement. Anyone who can sit there and tell me that the Con has not evolved dramatically from the time I drove on my first trip in 92 to now is pretty naive. Its also pretty naive to think that just because I have a buggy that I cant be at the Con to just enjoy nature.

I was there when the crap hit the fan with the Lahontan water district. Was there for the first work party FOTR did that IMO went a long way in establishing itself as a voice in the political process and may have saved access to the trail for many years to come. I saw alot of Rock Zombies (which TCarp is a member of) there busting their tail working side by side with me and doing their best to do their part as well.

I have a buggy. I dont go to the Rubicon to do anything but enjoy camping at Buck Island and hang out with my buddies. We aren't loud, don't go there to party, and most definitely don't go there to rip anything up. I have been in the box a few times but generally just go around and keep the gettin it for the Hammers or Moonrocks. Making a generalization that all people that have a buggy are out ripping stuff not only is divisive to our community, which is going to be the downfall of our sport/hobby imho, but it could not be further from the truth.

Myself & 2 of my buddies (Jeff Degnan aka Rainfly & Bret Preble aka Tinman) that also drive buggyish rigs, started the Friends of Fordyce to try to help maintain access to that trail. We are out on a regular basis trying to educate people on proper trail etiquitte, are out working with the FS on ways to mitigate issues that pop up on the trail, etc etc etc. We have worked WH3 at Sierra Trek for the past 3 yrs not counting last year (cancelled), and are currently actively working on some very important projects to keep that trail open & healthy. The FS has gone on numerous ride-alongs with us and because of the hard work we have done over the years (starting with the Four Dice 4 Wheel Drive Club, which is an adopt-a-trail club, and one which I co-founded) we have generated a fabulous working relationship with them. Because of our commitment to the trail, and our willingness to do whatever it takes to take care of potential problems we seem to have their unconditional trust to come through for them. That in turn is going to go a LONG way (IMO of course) in making sure that we maintain access. And all from a bunch of buggy guys....go figure

I encourage you to come out and join us on one of our project weekends to lend a hand, and maybe just maybe it may help change your mind about "buggy guys." :)

http://fourdice4x4.com/photos/albums/HammersDec07/DSCF2872.sized.jpg

NO SWEARING IN HERE!
You guys know the rules... clean up your posts, please.

This looks alot like friendly fire -- we've got several guys who clearly care quite a bit about the trail, fighting each other instead of fighting together to retain access.

If we were sitting around the fire, we'd find a way to get along, but sometimes over the 'net it is harder. :( We're far closer than we appear...

Randii

Come on Randii! You know you lost all your power when you lost the pony tail:laughing:

That said Randii is right. Access is the MOST important thing and these petty differences in what rig so and so drives not only gets old, but its just flat out KILLING US

Time for a cool dip for some hot heads. Where's that chill pill smiley??

Access is the MOST important thing and these petty differences in what rig so and so drives not only gets old, but its just flat out KILLING US
It sure is -- our hobby seems to focus on the smaller differences we have, instead of the larger commonalities that we share.

Let's keep working together towards unifying fellow responsible recreationists and defending our access!

Randii (of the shortened hair)

Time for a cool dip for some hot heads. Where's that chill pill smiley??

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Love/friends-067.gif

You are a fine example of the kind of tards that will get the trail shutdown. I never said i had a "highly modified" jeep, just one that is fully capable. Dont try to put words in my mouth, because what i have just said has dismissed your whole statement. Please, you have not seen the trail "evolving". You were a kid or a teen for most of the years you were on the trail. You dont go for the enjoyment of nature-you go to rip the pee pee out of the rocks, just like most people of buggies. I know the trail changes, sure, and that rigs are different, but that does not account for everything. It is mostly about the driver, and you put a abominable name on the buggy and younger wheeler community. Get a clue before you act all deific. :shaking:

Whatever! Instead of pointing fingers you should help be a part of a solution. I go to as many cleanups as I can, I have probably picked up your doo doo paper!!! I donate money and time instead of pointing fingers, try it!:eek:

But mainly!:mad3: You don't have a clue who I am or anything about me! I DO go there to enjoy nature. I don't need to rip up rocks I do that everyday at work. I go to relax and get away from asshats in the city. And if I see you in person some time we can "disscuss" this further.
:flipoff2:

\Whatever! Instead of pointing fingers you should help be a part of a solution. I go to as many cleanups as I can, I have probably picked up your doo doo paper!!! I donate money and time instead of pointing fingers, try it!:eek:

But mainly!:mad3: You don't have a clue who I am or anything about me! I DO go there to enjoy nature. I don't need to rip up rocks I do that everyday at work. I go to relax and get away from asshats in the city. And if I see you in person some time we can "disscus" this further.
:flipoff2:

X2....... I'd like to make a negative comment about his name... but I don't get it. Not like mine makes any more sense. Still trying to figure out what his means.

He travis... let's go rip the "pee pee" out of the rocks at cal expo.... the greenies should be far far from there :D see ya tomorrow bud!

\...abominable ... deific...

haha you said abominable. The best was deific though. Actually had to look that one up. haha. You sir have a great vocabulary but are way off base lumping everyone with a buggy together.Labeling them bad for the trail. The very same way lump all granola eaters together. :homer:

"I encourage you to come out and join us on one of our project weekends to lend a hand, and maybe just maybe it may help change your mind about "buggy guys." :)

Well said, I do NOT have a buggy, But to all who see a divide and are angry with the BUGGY people take to opprotunity to go out and see what they are about before you lump everyone into a catagory.
Randii is correct as well, we need to get together and come to some understanding... there is no need to argue with someone their INTENT on the trail.. we are all there because we all enjoy it in one way or another. I agree the apathetic and ignorant drivers are the problem if a problem needs a label.. you wont find them in the land use forum. So can we all agree that we need to unify despite or minor differences in age or tire size, and work together to keep what we love. Every post on this site is read by the opposition, and used against us, you realize they are trying to keep us fighting amongst ourselves in order to win the fight for our lands. Open your eyes to the big picture, anyone who wants to keep our sport rolling with responsible users is a friend not foe ( unless its FOE.. hehehe!) seriously lets stop the bickering and stand together against the true opposition. my 2 cents

Just cancelled my subscription (never read the front page section) due to this article and made it known to them.

ok
not trying to piss people off but

I also have not picked up the bee in years cant stand the paper but,

I have for years wanted to go hit the Rubicon and Fordyce, but my dad not being in to 4x4s I never got to go until I was a boy scout and worked at GTSR and walked Fordyce 14 years ago, and now I have a 4x4 that would go there it cant because its not built enough which is hard to afford now this I am sure dose not pertain to every one but from what I witnessed on the one trip I got to go on to Fordyce with a friend I can say this.

first I will say I know there are a lot of people out there that are respectful of others and try to keep the trail clean and follow the rules and give their time to help keep them clean Thank you for those of you that do that.

But when I was on the trail this is what I saw.

guys that have been doing it for years that once started where I am but had time to modify their rigs slowly over time. then there where the people that dady bought them a rig all built and yes some of them where respectful like they have been going up there for years with their parents but then there where others who where just dis respectful, pushing people out of the way. and going around through the trees and over places that looked like the have never seen a tire let alone a foot print.

for instance, we busted on one of the hills and while we were trying to get our rig up out of the way this group of guys in big buggy type rigs came up, but instead of giving us a hand all we needed was one more winch, the jeep that was trying to help was just not heavy enough, and getting us out of the way in a min or two they decided to try and go over the challenge right next to us. we finally did get it out but then latter on our way back out next to the water crossing they where off spining around over a bunch of young trees, along with using one of their rigs as a starting plat form to try a new challenge a few 100 feet off of the trail.

this is just the digest version of my experience and I know that not everyone is like that but its those that give articals like the one posted in the bee the ammunition that people need to write them.

but as it sits now for some one like me I will have to hit the lottery to be able to get my rig to the point where it can go to the trails or I have to just walk them or hopefully find someone willing to let me ride along which is fun but I would sure like to drive it my self one day.

Because every time I get my rig to a point where it might be able to go hit the trails i am told by a load of people when I start looking for people to go with that my truck is not ready that there is no way that it will make it.

ok that was long but from what I know is that if we dont want things like what where mentioned in the artical we as a group of like minded people need to get harsh with the people that a destrying it for all because if we take away the amunition that some give others to bad mouth and write bad stories about what gose on then the trails will stay open longer

1973 FJ40
Stock w/ sm465, SOA, and PS

My guess is it the rig in your avitar? If so, go hit whichever trail you like. It should be capable of either the Rubicon or Fordyce. A locker would be nice, but in all honesty they are NOT that expensive.

Yes there are a few bad apples. The same goes for any group. People that flyfish and walk on redds, environmental group advocates that cut a switchback while on a hike, a hunter that takes an unethical long shot at game or an entomologist that just had to have that rare bug in their collection are but just a few examples.

Education, peer pressure and enforcement are examples of what will change that. Lead by example, take a stand, become involved, support our political groups and report when needed.

They are your trails too.

now I have a 4x4 that would go there it cant because its not built enough...
I respectfully disagree. Both of these trails are workable, if you know your limits and those of your vehicle. There are bypasses for the toughest areas, which allows passage of broken vehicles or less-bult vehicles. I regularly see stockish Jeeps and Toyotas working their way through both trails... but I certainly recommend a minimum of 33" tires and a locker - that ain't exactly break-the-bank budget. It ain't a cheap hobby, but it does not have to be a multi-thousand dollar one, either. If your friends ain't kosher with that, then find different friends who are willing to work with you to get a smaller ride through the trails.

I'm sorry that you saw people being silly -- next time, let's work together to go up and talk to the people about how their behavior risks our (and THEIR) access to the trail. Most of the guys I have walked up on with this message and a good approach, even if they aren't exactly thrilled to hear it, have changed their behavior... and law enforcement can sort out the rest. You can assist with this.

It doesn't matter whether the rig is built or bought, what size tires it runs, or how much motor it has... the DRIVER determines the impact of the trail more than the vehicle. The driver needs to be respectful of the resource... not the steel, oil, rubber, and glass.

...as a group of like minded people need to get harsh with the people that a destrying it for all because if we take away the amunition that some give others to bad mouth and write bad stories about what gose on then the trails will stay open longer
This, I agree with. Rubicon Trail Patrol is a way to do exactly that, and I think the Friends of Fordyce are going to do something similar.

Randii

I respectfully disagree. Both of these trails are workable, if you know your limits and those of your vehicle. There are bypasses for the toughest areas, which allows passage of broken vehicles or less-bult vehicles. I regularly see stockish Jeeps and Toyotas working their way through both trails... but I certainly recommend a minimum of 33" tires and a locker - that ain't exactly break-the-bank budget. It ain't a cheap hobby, but it does not have to be a multi-thousand dollar one, either. If your friends ain't kosher with that, then find different friends who are willing to work with you to get a smaller ride through the trails.

I'm sorry that you saw people being silly -- next time, let's work together to go up and talk to the people about how their behavior risks our (and THEIR) access to the trail. Most of the guys I have walked up on with this message and a good approach, even if they aren't exactly thrilled to hear it, have changed their behavior... and law enforcement can sort out the rest. You can assist with this.

It doesn't matter whether the rig is built or bought, what size tires it runs, or how much motor it has... the DRIVER determines the impact of the trail more than the vehicle. The driver needs to be respectful of the resource... not the steel, oil, rubber, and glass.


This, I agree with. Rubicon Trail Patrol is a way to do exactly that, and I think the Friends of Fordyce are going to do something similar.

Randii


And i would disagree with your first statement. You might be able to get a stockish 4x4 through the trail, but have you seen how much damage that does to the trail? With no lockers, i see people just spinning their tires around trying to find traction. The trail is getting to the point that 35 inch tires and 2 lockers are the min. requirement. You might be able to lower that requirement by hitting the bypasses, but that is not part of the trail, and not what should be done. I find the rubicon very challenging in a very capable jeep(35s, 2 lockers). In the old days you could get through stock pretty easily, but now it is nearly impossible, without breakage or bypassing everything. By bringing a stock rig, the user is just ruining the trail, and you are not there to enjoy nature. You are there to winch your way through the trail. This is the only reason why i run 35's, otherwise i would have kept my rig stockish and simple.

"With no lockers, i see people just spinning their tires around trying to find traction"

That is all driver. I could do the same thing with my Jeep on 37's with Detroits. I learned a long time ago on 31's and a trac-loc that it didn't do me much good.

"You might be able to lower that requirement by hitting the bypasses, but that is not part of the trail, and not what should be done."

Do you drive through the little sluice each and every time you run the trail? Have you ever taken the lower slabs route instead of the Old Sluice to get to Buck Island?

"By bringing a stock rig, the user is just ruining the trail, and you are not there to enjoy nature."

I've seen plenty of very stock looking vehicles on the trail. Jeeps are the most common and the Jambo is a good example. I've wheeled with an individual with a near stock ifs Tacoma on 32's that did just fine with no damage and no rampant spinning of tires. He's rather new to the sport but understands what he is doing.

No doubt about it, driving a trail is hard on a vehicle regardless of it being stock or built up. Vehicle carnage is an accepted part of what we do or we would find another passion. Fatigue catches up over time and things happen. We build to mitigate and make things easier

On a side note, not everyone goes there JUST to enjoy nature, and there is nothing wrong with that. To some it is a chance to get away from the daily grind, some to play etc.

And i would disagree with your first statement. You might be able to get a stockish 4x4 through the trail, but have you seen how much damage that does to the trail? With no lockers, i see people just spinning their tires around trying to find traction. The trail is getting to the point that 35 inch tires and 2 lockers are the min. requirement. You might be able to lower that requirement by hitting the bypasses, but that is not part of the trail, and not what should be done. I find the rubicon very challenging in a very capable jeep(35s, 2 lockers). In the old days you could get through stock pretty easily, but now it is nearly impossible, without breakage or bypassing everything. By bringing a stock rig, the user is just ruining the trail, and you are not there to enjoy nature. You are there to winch your way through the trail. This is the only reason why i run 35's, otherwise i would have kept my rig stockish and simple.

I ran a stock Jeep through the trail 13 times in 2005 with no lockers and no gears. I almost never spun a tire and slipped where I needed a strap twice. I could do it again this coming summer as well.

Every year, stock rigs go through the Rubicon. Most fairly easily. In groups of 12-25 rigs. Granted they have experienced guides, but some of these folks have never driven a motor vehicle until they get here.

Personally, I find my rig on 37,s and lockers to be a fairly easy to get through the trail. I do know the trail well enough to recite and describe it rock by rock. That is my advantage more than the rig. It is all about the driver.

Scott

Its all about knowing your vehicle and its limits ,also yours.I usually bring an older guy with my group of friends on the trails.He has a cj-7 with 35 inch tires with just a rear locker,and he does all the "harder sections".While he might have to take a while and use spotters he does just fine.He is pretty anal about his jeep and does not have anybody damage but he has also had this jeep for 10 years as well.While most of our group on fordyce have to take the bypass on winch hill 3 ,he and all the other "stockish" ones crawl right up it.Every situation is different and every vehicle is different.

I agree that fordyce is starting to get popular and the need for enforcement will have to happen soon.I would hate to start seeing other fellow wheelers looking down upon each other for the vehicles they drive.I always post up on the rubicon trail patrol forum when I go out,I am always more than happy to have anyone join the group I am with.BTW hammers feb.14-19.:)

You might be able to get a stockish 4x4 through the trail, but have you seen how much damage that does to the trail?

I work as trail guide for Jeepers Jamboree. Every single year for the past sixteen I have guided MANY stock jeeps through the Rubicon EVERY year. Are we guiding them to take the easy route? Yes, of course. Is the easy route always apparent to the inexperienced? No, not always.

But I can guarantee you that a "stock-ish" rig can go through the Con without doing more damage than any other well driven vehicle. It's about experience, attitude, and care. Consider wheeling with some experienced and careful folks with a good attitude. You might learn something.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/willysworker/th_rubiconsluicebox2000.jpg (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/willysworker/rubiconsluicebox2000.jpg)
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/willysworker/th_rubicon_littlesluice.jpg (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/willysworker/rubicon_littlesluice.jpg)
Photos are from another thread. Things change and not always for the good. You guys can argue about this and that till it's all locked up. The real problem is just another case of a few(too many) ruining it for the many. The good times are gone, and they aren't coming back.
Hate to say it, but the best way to keep this road open and the vehicle access to this area free to all is to pave it and fence both sides. :mr-t:

willysworker, I could not disagree with you more... but thanks for providing the context to make me remember how close the majority of users are on the Rubicon!

You might be able to get a stockish 4x4 through the trail, but have you seen how much damage that does to the trail?
You missed the 'well driven' qualifier, which implicitly states that no damage is being done. There are poor drivers in stock rigs and poor drivers in buggies, as well as good drivers in stock rigs and good drivers in buggies... it has little to do with the vehicle and MUCH to do with the driver.

FWIW, I don't own a buggy -- I 'wheel a '90 Amigo on 35s, and have been on the Rubicon open-open with 33s, IFS, and stock gearing. Back in those days, I went with guys who were OK with having a smaller vehicle, and willing to strap and spot to assist. These days, with 35s, lockers, and gears, I run the whole trail except Little Sluice. (The last time I played in the Sluice, I thrashed a door, window, and frame. No worry -- we gotta pay to play, and I haven't played in LS in a while, but will someday again.)

BTW, IMHO bypasses *ARE* part of a healthy, multi-use trail. We need places to pass, and break-down bypasses for people to nurse out the broken equipment that sometimes happens in rock-crawling. We don't need a breakdown lane on either side, passing lanes on uphills, or turn-outs to everyplace anyone has ever camped, but we do need a few well-established bypasses and multiple turn-outs/parking areas. These are most definitely an important part of the trail!

Randii

...thanks for providing the context to make me remember how close the majority of users are on the Rubicon!

Randii

:laughing:

Hate to say it, but the best way to keep this road open and the vehicle access to this area free to all is to pave it and fence both sides. :mr-t:

WOW.Why just not go mall crawling?I have seen and had issues with the just the gatekeeper being the way it is?(people basically lost and thought it would be cool to go on the rubicon,heading down wentworth,still lost.Then trashing there D.D trying to make it back to loon).If/when dot starts paving the rubicon, the way it was and is, will all be a memory.The rubicon was actually considered to be hwy50 along time ago,it is the lowest elevation to tahoe.What you are asking for is to make it so every suv can make it ,can you think of it the new bypass for hwy50????

The last time I played in the Sluice, I thrashed a door, window, and frame. Har !!! That was before the Bishop Interglacial, er last bout of the little ice age to ya'll. "This post is useless without pics !!" Evidence of the passage is rare, as most of the ice has melted, but still evident in the boulder rust scrapings, widely misinterpreted as glacial scour.

Your alternater still works fine........
:homer::homer::homer: