Well, this pisses me off. The truck had been running GREAT, just gave me problems starting when it was VERY humid out, or raining. I knew why, my coil was cracked and it was grounding out. Finally refused to start completely last night in the rain, so I decided today was time for a new coil.

Go pick up the truck today. Since it's dry out, it starts first turn of the engine, 100%. NO problem. Runs the couple miles to baseball practice, starts right up after, starts right up after getting gas, runs perfect.

Now, swap on "new" coil. Unkown condition spare, but no reason to doubt it. It had some kind of resistor looking thing attached, but only one wire coming out of the thing, so dad said toss it. Hook up the coil, didn't mix up wires, and test it out. Starts right up, then dies right away. Dammit Something's weird. Coil is good, tested it in my dad's scout. Try swapping on the old coil, no luck. At this point the only thing touched was the coil. 3 wires and the one to the cap.

Cleaned the cap off, and the rotor. No luck. Cleaned all connections with the dremel. No luck. Tried jumping the power source for the coil, no luck.

If I pull the wire from the top of the coil, and put it close to a ground, it should give me a blue spark, correct? It's giving me NOTHING, even when I touch directly, leading me to believe it's the coil, but why would it work in his scout?

Tomorrow i'll be trying a new cap. Other than that, I have no idea what to try.

Can't pull dad's coil, it's bolted to the truck and a PITA to do that. would rather go buy one.

Any help is appreciated. I'm getting pi**** off with this. This is why it stayed like it was for so long.

IT WAS NOT A RESISTOR, IT WAS SOME NOISE SUPRESSOR THING.

I asked on the BB as well, but I need to figure this out. I know it's not hardcore by any means, but It's my DD. Gotta take dad's truck tomorrow.

thanks

http://www.robertaonthearts.com/gold13tiffanybox.jpeg

If I pull the wire from the top of the coil, and put it close to a ground, it should give me a blue spark, correct?


only while cranking

only while cranking

Holy Shit! You should write a book with all that usefull info!:shaking::flipoff2:

Check your points in the distributor. Maybe they got welded up when you were messing with all the wires and stuff. Just take them out, sand the surfaces clean and re-gap. I bet that is what is wrong.

Check your points in the distributor. Maybe they got welded up when you were messing with all the wires and stuff. Just take them out, sand the surfaces clean and re-gap. I bet that is what is wrong.

thanks, i'll check that out tomorrow. I'm pretty sure i've got a petronox in there right now. I forget, last time I had ignition problems I got this one to work, but I forget which worked:homer:

Laborc, WTF is that?:laughing:

As for the spark, it should be able to bridge a 3/8" gap, making a blue "spark" across, right? It's giving me nothing remotely close to what I think it should be. Even while touching the ground, it gives me a TINY spec of a spark. Seems too weak to me. I tried using the plug tester to check for spark, but haven't figured out a way to hook it up to the coil to cap wire. My cap is female.

its a golden box!!

fawker:flipoff2:

no mo' gold box fo' my hoopdie:p I ditched it a while back when it died, in favor of a petronox. V8 distributor flavor, just used half the cap. Worked great for the last 6 months:D

the petronix needs a 3 ohm coil to run a 4 banger, and 1.5 ohm coil to run a v8.

I got a 1 watt 2 ohm resistor from Electrode Hut and zip-tied it to my coil.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/Fryloc/scout%20build/booster002small.jpg


:edit:
I don't remember if there is a condenser used with the petronix, but if that goes bad it won't fire the coil.

Wait, so you are using a v8 dizzy, won't it load up the coil 90* of crank angle sooner than it needs, then possibly fire the next plug by accident because it there isn't an arcable gap? Or is this a real common fix for the 4 bangers? Can you file 4 of the point bumps off?

I think he means he's been using the v8 version of pertronix on a 4 banger. All you have to do is figure out which magnets aren't used and pop them out. Pertronix does make a 4 cylinder version for IH.

uhh, it's a complete v8 dizzy, didn't swap out or mod anything. Just popped it in, used half the plugs on the cap, and she ran. Is that causing me some problems?:emb4: I had thought it would initially, but since it's been running perfect for 6 months since it went in, I figured it was just fine.

Urban, thanks for the info on the ohm load differences between 4 and 8's. Never knew that. Gonna check that as well. Would I damage anything if I hadn't used the resistor, or would it just not work?

thanks again. gonna go do some tests now

Yeah no resister is bad over the long term. Points if you have them and maybe your pertronix that you are running.

uhh, it's a complete v8 dizzy, didn't swap out or mod anything. Just popped it in, used half the plugs on the cap, and she ran. Is that causing me some problems?:emb4: I had thought it would initially, but since it's been running perfect for 6 months since it went in, I figured it was just fine.

Urban, thanks for the info on the ohm load differences between 4 and 8's. Never knew that. Gonna check that as well. Would I damage anything if I hadn't used the resistor, or would it just not work?

thanks again. gonna go do some tests now

I don't know for sure, I was just regurgitating what the petronix instructions told me, but I was under the impression that you could burn it up if you didn't have enough resistance in the coil.

If you have a condenser with the petronix (I don't remember that part) swap it from a running motor and see if it helps any.

My Crane Fireball system kept he condenser so maybe yours did too. I think a new condenser is about $2.

Hmm, sounds like i'm going to pick up a resistor.

So, Important notes:
1. I have a V8 petronox dizzy, with a 4cyl cap. No mods to the dizzy at all.
2. Bought a new coil to eliminate that possibility, no go.
3. I forget exactly what we used, but dad measured 27 as the rotations of the dizzy, confirming it is good. This rules out the internals of the dizzy.
4. My cap, rotor, dizzy, coil all worked 100% prior to swapping coils.
5. Original resistance of the coil was 2ohm, used trial was 1.9, and new bought reads 1.8. May be important, but I thought while running, not starting.
6. Tried a brand new cap (V8, have no more 4cyl new), and a different used rotor and it didn't work.

NARROWED DOWN PROBLEM FACTS
I am getting 12v at the coil, going to a ground and the + side of the coil. I am getting spark out of the coil, using a plug tester in line, connecting it to the ground of my batt, and getting a nice spark.

Now what's weird. I should be able to hold the coil to dizzy wire, while still attached to the coil end to a ground of some sort, and a small blue "lightning bolt" should arc across. I am not getting this. Tried with two different wires, neither worked. The most I got was a small yellow/orange spark while touching the ground directly. It doesn't make sense:( All three coils, same result. This was my initial test of the coil, and why I thought there was prolbem with the other two. Now, it's the same with a brand new Accel coil.

Any ideas? Tried directly jumping the coil + to the batt to make sure it's getting full power, still no lightning spark. Same when jumping the -, ruling out both the - from the dizzy. No arc/spark is being created. Called up a good friend of mine and talked it through with him, came to the same conclusion, something's weird as hell:shaking: I'm charging up the battery right now, to see if low voltage is the problem, but I doubt it. (After two days of trying to figure it out, I still had 11.7volts @ the coil.

thanks guys

Um...

Got fuel? :flipoff2:

Are you cranking it when it when you are checking spark at the coil? If the coil throws a spark you will know, it something like 20,000 volts or so.

Could your ignition be bad? I would try running a hot wire straight to the coil. You have the negative side of the coil going to the distributor, right? Its probably something minor that everyone is over looking. Your coil wire pressed into the new coil tightly?


Does it want to fire but doesn't start? Or does it just crank without any action?

Remember that the coil isn't a transformer, well, it is but thats not the way it makes spark. What makes the spark is when voltage in the primary coil is no longer there.

Try this, hook up the coil to a sparkplug that is laying on something grounded to the coil. send +12 to the + side of the coil. Now using a jumper, intermittantley ground the - side of the coil. every time you un ground it it should fire a spark.

try it agian with the resistor you are using hooked up inline with the grounding jumper, if the coil uses an external resistor.

Um...

Got fuel? :flipoff2:

Are you cranking it when it when you are checking spark at the coil? If the coil throws a spark you will know, it something like 20,000 volts or so.

Could your ignition be bad?

good thing you read his first post. :shaking:

Remember that the coil isn't a transformer, well, it is but thats not the way it makes spark. What makes the spark is when voltage in the primary coil is no longer there.

Try this, hook up the coil to a sparkplug that is laying on something grounded to the coil. send +12 to the + side of the coil. Now using a jumper, intermittantley ground the - side of the coil. every time you un ground it it should fire a spark.

try it agian with the resistor you are using hooked up inline with the grounding jumper, if the coil uses an external resistor.

thanks, i'll try that method when I get home today.

I'm thinking something could have gone wrong inside the dizzy, but then I should still be getting a blue spark between the coil and a grounding point, and i'm not. The only way I get that is if I hook the plug tester in between, and have it be a complete ''cycle'', + on on side of the wire rig, - on the other, no gap through air.

Ran a hot straigt to the coil, no difference in any tests. Have 12+ volts on coil. - does go to the dizzy. Tried 3 different coil-cap wires, none worked. Cranks, gets gas, but nothing else. Doesn't kick but not start, no ignition/burning of fuel whatsoever.

This is why I don't fix things unless they're broke:shaking: I was fine with knowing it wouldn't start in the rain once in a while. Try to fix it, and some damn problem pops up that makes no sense.

Think your pertronix is fried. Can you put points back in and try it?

BTW .1ohm difference will not make a difference now and more then likely even over the long term.

3. I forget exactly what we used, but dad measured 27 as the rotations of the dizzy, confirming it is good. This rules out the internals of the dizzy.

thanks guys

27 what? I don't know what you are talking about.

Is there a way you can throw in a set of points just to rule out the petronix? the only other things I can think of is you either have some wires crossed or some dirty connection somewhere.

measured that 27 with a dwell tach. Turned out to be wrong.

found a buried 4cyl prestolite, threw it in, and it's all working. Now i've got to figure out why I have a weak spark at the plugs. Good going into the cap, makes a nice blue arc to ground. Tried 2 dif caps(one brand new) and 3 different rotors, made no difference.

ok, 27 degrees of dwell.

yep, sorry about that. Dad did that test, and i'd never heard of the damn thing before. He said that confirmed the dizzy was good, but it turned out to be a false test.

Anyway,
I believe I have it figured out. I'm now getting a weak spark at the plugs, very weak, but it's a spark I didn't have yesterday. I swapped in a 4cyl prestolite which bench tested to be good as per the IH manual, and the v8 one I had installed was bad(if you know the test, stayed at 12v and never dropped to 0 like it should have)

I am getting a great spark out of the coil now, but it's not making it to my plugs. Tried 3 different rotors and two dif caps(one a new one), to no avail. I'm going to pick up a new cap and rotor set tomorrow, and see if that works. I know my wires are good. It's weird these things went bad at the same time, but maybe they were dying for a while? Any tests before I go spend the money? Hopefully I can return the coil, we'll see.

thanks

I wouldn't think that cap and rotors could be "bad" unless they are cracked. I would just sand down the contact surfaces and save the money of getting new ones. I would slide up the rubber connection sleeves on the coil wire so you can actually make sure that the metal end of the wire is fitting tightly into the distributor cap and top of the coil. Same with all the plug wires at that go into the distributor.

Sounds like you are almost there though...good luck.

I wouldn't think that cap and rotors could be "bad" unless they are cracked. I would just sand down the contact surfaces and save the money of getting new ones. I would slide up the rubber connection sleeves on the coil wire so you can actually make sure that the metal end of the wire is fitting tightly into the distributor cap and top of the coil. Same with all the plug wires at that go into the distributor.

Sounds like you are almost there though...good luck.

thanks. I took the dremel with a wire wheel to both, but i'll pull them off and find some fine grit sandpaper and see if that gets me anywhere. I don't think they went bad, considering it ran on them three days ago, but it's weird. Only thing I can figure. I'll check the ground betw. dizzy and coil also, and clean the contacts at the coil when I go home.

May clean the plugs too, just because they definetely need it.

I've gotten a cap and rotor that sucked ass before from Napa. I think they gave me the Ford sized one, which is close, but not quite. It has a gap that's too large and I had weak spark problems, plus it wasn't quite snug enough.
So, I guess what I'm saying, is that just because it "fits" doesn't mean it fits well enough to get a good spark.

I've gotten a cap and rotor that sucked ass before from Napa. I think they gave me the Ford sized one, which is close, but not quite. It has a gap that's too large and I had weak spark problems, plus it wasn't quite snug enough.
So, I guess what I'm saying, is that just because it "fits" doesn't mean it fits well enough to get a good spark.

Thanks. Doesn't explain why the original cap+rotor pair doesn't work, but thanks for the heads up. Always good to get more info like this. I'm not convinced it's the cap+/rotor, but I am at the same time, if that makes any sense:homer:

79, I cleaned both rotor and cap with an emery(sp) cloth, and pulled all plugs, wire brushed, and gapped at 35. Could be too big of a gap, but it's definetely not a dirty contact now.

One weird thing going on here though. At the top of the coil, where the coil-dizzy mounts, i hear the sound of the spark grounding(the crackling like when I ground out the wire in the test above), which can't be good. If I slide the rubber boot up to look, the spark does not go through the wire, it jumps out the top of the coil. Even with the rubber boot on, I can still hear the crackling going on.

So the actual setups I tried for extra info. Mixes of 3 dif. rotors and 3 different caps(one brand new, but now suspect because it said Ford and IH), none of which gave me any better spark, including the original combo. Also included in these testings were two different coil-cap wires, neither making a difference.
After this, I found a spare set of wires, and tried a V8 cap with male ends. So that equated to another different cap, completely different wires including coil-cap, and each of the 3 rotors, not making any difference.

I'm stumped. Seems like every time i've got a problem, it's a mind boggling one:shaking: I'm sure most of the guys here could figure it out in an hour, but i'm a lot less knowledgeable than most on here:)

Is there a chance that your stereo is wired funky and is taking all the power as soon as you turn the key. If you have an amp I would take the positive side out just for a test. And make sure your stereo is off. I really dont know what wrong but just thinking of outside the box possibilities.

I put some subs into my friends truck and we wired the capacitor wrong so it was straight grounding stuff out and drained his battery. I am just saying that is is possible you put the stereo power on the "on" part of the ignition instead of the "auxillory" side.

One weird thing going on here though. At the top of the coil, where the coil-dizzy mounts, i hear the sound of the spark grounding(the crackling like when I ground out the wire in the test above), which can't be good. If I slide the rubber boot up to look, the spark does not go through the wire, it jumps out the top of the coil. Even with the rubber boot on, I can still hear the crackling going on.

Get someone to turn the key at night and maybe you'll see a lightshow. Sometimes there can be a long arc that is too dim to see in the daylight.

Is there a chance that your stereo is wired funky and is taking all the power as soon as you turn the key. If you have an amp I would take the positive side out just for a test. And make sure your stereo is off. I really dont know what wrong but just thinking of outside the box possibilities.

I put some subs into my friends truck and we wired the capacitor wrong so it was straight grounding stuff out and drained his battery. I am just saying that is is possible you put the stereo power on the "on" part of the ignition instead of the "auxillory" side.

It's definetely not a problem involving the stereo. It's been there for 6+ months, and is wired better than most, safety and smart-ness wise. Good idea though.

Get someone to turn the key at night and maybe you'll see a lightshow. Sometimes there can be a long arc that is too dim to see in the daylight.

Will do. What will this prove? In the daylight I can already see a bright blue spark going around the top of the coil, then reaching the ground 'bolt' spot on the coil. It does this with two different coils. Didn't try with the new one, i'm hoping to return it, but if you guys suggest i'll try the new one.

thanks again guys.

if you have power to the distributor but not to the plugs then I would think its a ground problem. get a plug and ground the bottom, crank and see if it sparks.
If it does then put another ground strap on your engine or transmission. If it doesn't then it is your cap and rotor or distributor electronics. Personally I would just spend the money on a new distributor. If it doesn't fix the problem then clean it up and return it. If it does then you will have a ride again.

if you have power to the distributor but not to the plugs then I would think its a ground problem. get a plug and ground the bottom, crank and see if it sparks.
If it does then put another ground strap on your engine or transmission. If it doesn't then it is your cap and rotor or distributor electronics. Personally I would just spend the money on a new distributor. If it doesn't fix the problem then clean it up and return it. If it does then you will have a ride again.

Tried that plug method, and didn't get any spark.

I see no need for another ground wire to the engine. It worked perfectly, is a huge upgrade from stock, and nothing happened to it. I'd love to buy a new dizzy, but that's $200+ that I don't have right now. I can't believe this one would be bad too, since it passed the bench test according to the IH manual.

Urban-what type of resistance should I be getting? My multimeter was acting weird. When I first touched the wires, it started at around 400 ohms resistance, then gradually dropped down, bouncing around the amount up and down, finally, still bouncing, dropping to 50, then up to 100, and around that range. I'm going to try a different meter when I get the chance.

Well, it's running again:smokin:

Can't say the exact cause of the problem. I can say that my original rotor wasn't conducting any electricity through anymore, so that was definetely a problem.

Today we found another 4cyl cap in the box, a different set of plug wires, and a good rotor, and she started up. Runs better than it has in a while. Probably due to the cleaned plugs, new coil, nicer wires, and better rotor.

Thanks for all the input guys. I'll be happy to answer questions if anyone's wondering anything, but I gotta go clean up the garage now.

I'm guessing the wire from the coil to the cap.

I am using a different one, but the original coil-cap wire showed the least resistance of all tried.

I believe strongly it was the coil. I don't know how, but it wasn't conducting from the tip to the top of it. I opened it up, and found that it was not one piece. There was the ''sheet metal'' piece on the top, at the tip, and a small round cylinder inside that connected the two. That cylinder wasn't letting electricity flow through. Don't nkow how that happened, since it was working before, but I have one that works, so I don't really care