Ok new thread so we do not to clutter Brett's :D

My take on it.

I think tilting the chassis is an advantage. sure its not in the rules but depending on how you do it, you make the chassis and frame shorter in an overall horizontal length (sure its a min. amount but what if you really pushed it...). You gain visibilty, get rear tire clearance which allows a shorter wheelbase, etc. Its skirting the hood bar lowering rule...by raising the back end and/or lowering the front end.

This is one of those things that I don't get. Everyone is saying this is fine since its not a SPECIFIED RULE but some of the other non specified things in the rules are not legal just because some one said so when asked if its legal... :homer:

If anyone should be following the intended rules to the letter its the BOD.

:flipoff2:

I seriously doubt you could tilt the chassis enough to give you a noticible performance advantage that would be unfair. Some competetors will probably take this concept to the max, but those are also the idiots that think tweeking the rules will get them a class killing rig.

Tilting the chassis 6" will make the chassis an 1/8" shorter.:bounce2:

Tilting the chassis 6" will make the chassis an 1/8" shorter.

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Have at it guys, go for that extra 1/8", could be the difference between 6th and 9th place:laughing:

The formula toy rules were set up so that we could have a base line on a level playing field. We didn't want to write a novel, spelling out every little detail that we could think of just so some competitors could find ways around the rules. We instead decided to establish a base line and add what you COULD do in the form of "extra modifications" so noone would end up with a clear vehicle advantage.
I think the rules are pretty clear on how to assemble a comp leagal Formula Toy.

To address the subject of tilting the chassis. I will bring it up to the Board of Directors for a formal vote, but here is my opinion.
the F-Toy chassis is intended to be welded to the frame with the front of the chassis going toward the front and the rules state clearly that the frame cannot be any shorter than the chassis. We did not address the height of the chassis on the frame because people come in all shapes and sizes and We Rock has a head clearance rule that needs to be addressed when installing the chassis on the frame. Some people can lower the chassis on the frame and get away with it cause they are short. They end up with a lower center of gravity but the motor sticks up above the chassis so it's hard to see over. Other people will weld the chassis higher on the frame to accomidate a bigger person and they end up with a flat hood that you can see over better but a higher center of gravity. Neither one in my opinion have a clear advantage.
Brett welded the chassis so the bottom of the chassis is 2" above the top of the frame in the center (just like the Marlin Crawler rig). By tilting the chassis one inch over a 12 foot span he did shorten the length of the chassis as opposed to the frame, but the distance would be measures in thousandths of an inch. Infact, I would challange anyone to be able to measure this distance.
As far as wheel base is concerned. A shorter wheelbase in my opinion is a disadvantage, and the the wheel base change in tilting the chassis one inch is not a factor. You can shorten the wheelbase by offset drilling the spring perches to change the wheel base, but most people do this to make the wheel base LONGER for front wheel turning purposes. As far as I have ever seen rear wheel clearance is not a factor because you would have to lower the chassis REALLY LOW to make that come into play, and then you would be back to head clearance problems.
As far as your last sentence goes. Please don't lead people to believe that ANYONE in the Board of Directors is using their position to increase their advantage in competition because it is absolutely not true. the F-Toy BOD work hard to keep this an even playing field and to address any issues that people bring up as fair as possible.
There will alwayse be questions about the rules and we are glad to address them as fair as possible.
I will get back to you with the BOD decision on this matter.

Personally, I took one of John's or Hobie's original statements to heart when I started laying out my rig.
"If it's not specifically in the rules allowing it, then it's not specifically allowed."

OK--fair enough. I'm all in favor of this being a go...but I'm at the stage in my build where I can accommodate this change.

If you take an uber-tall person like myself, sit in the seat vertically, and have 3" headroom clearance with a helmet on, the chassis might sit level 4" or more above the frame.

If you take someone really, really short, you could theoretically set the chassis an inch below the framerails (bottom of tube below top surface of frame)....but their noggin would still be 3" below the top bars with a helmet on. In all likelihood, their sight line would still be pretty much the same place over the hood bar...unless the motor stuck up too much in the way.

With a level chassis, there's really no visibility advantage based on chassis mounting height....and any advantage of the hood bar being lower on a chassis mounted lower is offset by having the motor in the sight line...so an advantage one way offset by a disadvantage another way.

With a tilted chassis, you can get great headroom and great visibility over the hood bar....and with the motor 8" back, you still don't stick the motor that far above the hood bar. An advantage set off by....no discernable disadvantage...except for the semi-ugly retro-rod look.

That said, then, why wouldn't dropping the hood bar only be a no-no?

Again, I'm in favor of this being OK...just playing Devil's Advocate, because I can see both sides to it. Pook has a rig built to the rules (the rules that were printed at the time of his build)...and I can see that this level of modification would probably be overwhelming on a completed rig, so I want to acknowledge that it may be seen as an unfair advantage if you couldn't do that to your rig.

I'll shut up now.

If any of you feel this is that huge of an advantage it would be really easy to tilt your chassis in one afternoon. All you have to do is cut out 8-10 straight tubes and replace them, hell it would be easier than a body lift.

Sorry to make this more difficult.
What is the hood bar rule. I am currently working on mine.

If any of you feel this is that huge of an advantage it would be really easy to tilt your chassis in one afternoon. All you have to do is cut out 8-10 straight tubes and replace them, hell it would be easier than a body lift.


I have fully welded in boat sides so its not that simple :p

[QUOTE=desertoy;7738142]
As far as your last sentence goes. Please don't lead people to believe that ANYONE in the Board of Directors is using their position to increase their advantage in competition because it is absolutely not true. the F-Toy BOD work hard to keep this an even playing field and to address any issues that people bring up as fair as possible.
QUOTE]


John that was never my intent... Its just a feeling thats comes up that I know I'm not alone with, when it comes to understanding how some of the "grey" area rules or one off answers to questions on legalities come about.


All comes back to the whole if its not in the rules you can't do it Statement. Which is from what I have been told over the years is the main rule of our class.

Not here trying to stir up drama just working on my understanding of the rules cause we all want whatever extra edge we can get.



:beer:

Sorry to make this more difficult.
What is the hood bar rule. I am currently working on mine.

Don't modify the existing chassis--including cutting out, lowering, bending, or otherwise moving the hood bar. From this current thread, it appears we can move the entire chassis....just leave it exactly in the shape it was when you got it.

John that was never my intent... Its just a feeling thats comes up that I know I'm not alone with, when it comes to understanding how some of the "grey" area rules or one off answers to questions on legalities come about.

All comes back to the whole if its not in the rules you can't do it Statement. Which is from what I have been told over the years is the main rule of our class.

Not complaining...just stating the way I see it:

Pook, some of us don't live in SoCal, and don't see all the other FToys all the time. There are things that may be the M.O. for most FToys, but also aren't spelled out in the rules. Guess we just have to be a bit more observant.

This is all a healthy, civil discussion--thanks to all.

being an outsider to it all, seeing as how you could (within the rules) mount the entire chassie any height you want. you could stick that thing 10" above the frame rails if you chose too or 2 inches's below the frame rails if you could fit it.

while its been said if its not in the rules its not allowed, even i have seen it stated 1000 times, if you have a question....... ask.

besides, i don't think it'll really be THAT much of a sight advantage anyways. in comps you guys have spotters to tell you where to go. the driver seeing one extra inch of the boulder in front of him isn't gonna make a difference.

I'm not worried about it. I drive most of the time with my eyes closed anyway.

I don't see any real "competitive" advantage. It's still going to come down to driving and spotting.
I do understand a few people feeling a bit out of the loop. The center of the F-Toy world is in So-Cal. Even one state away I was getting a little frustrated, but I think for the most part everything is pretty clear. After you make it to a few comps you'll see that an inch here or there really doesn't make any difference. Spend your time getting your suspension dialed in. That's going to do way more for you than tilting the chassis.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. Some of the rules make no sense. I could care less on the tilted chassis rule, but it would of been nice to have done it on my rig when I built it. With my chassis 2" above the frame I have lots of head room, and with a new rad I could easily drop the front hood bar 2" and keep a relativly flat hood line. Am I goign to do all the work to make it happen...doubtful, I don't think its worth the efort.

and to this day I don't understand the no air bump rule which isn't specified in rules...

I do understand a few people feeling a bit out of the loop. The center of the F-Toy world is in So-Cal. Even one state away I was getting a little frustrated, but I think for the most part everything is pretty clear.

The obvious way around that feeling is to get everyone you know locally into an FToy! :laughing:

I live in SoCal and have seen most of them close up several times.

I still get confused! :laughing:

What I like is that whenever something comes up like this there at least seems to be an open discussion about it.

tilting the chassis is okay. any sane person will do it just an inch or 2 either way. i think mine is tilted a bit foward come to think of it.

anyone who wants to do something stupid, like tilt it up 5' in the air is more than welcome, they could get their wheelbase down to 80" hahahaha. that thing would look so stupid...they would have to add so much tube, hahahaha.

plus if we have our way, the course will be more about technical climbs next year and not who has the sharpest turning radius..(which was me last year after vegas)

we are getting away from parking lot courses like goldendale where my ftoy excelled.

right now 103" wheelbase has been good in the past, but i see 106" or more being the way to go in this class....espcially in pro rock.

First, I personally think that tilting the chassis 1" is not a good idea. Mainly because it doesn't accomplish anything. Now if you were to tilt it 6" (from front to rear) you could accomplish something, but the negative things you would bring to the picture would outweigh the positive.

I can understand where you guys are coming from. You spend countless hours building something and once you are done someone thinks of something that you didn't and you think to yourself "dammit, if I would have known, I would have done that also". There is alwayse going to be gray areas and at some point we are going to have to rule on the gray areas.
What you need to come to terms with is, the Formula Toy concept was thought of is California, based on alot of guys having alot of conversations and then one guy stepping up and making it happen. Anyone could have done it. It just happened to be Mike Hendricks, and he just happend to live in Central California.
There are also other people that have taken interest in this class and stepped up to make it better by offering parts that once were custom "one off" to the public. these people are putting the time in, doing the research, asking the questions, paying the R&D money to hopefully some day make a litle money back. and yes, they just happen to live in California. If anyone from anywhere were to call me and spend the time that people like Brett has, researching this class to make it better I would help them just like Brett, and they would be in the same position as him, being criticized for thinking of ways to take this class to another level.
Noone is doing anything wrong, they are just trying to grow the class by making it easier for the average Joe to be involved.

Now,
As far as the Air Bumps go. or anything else for that matter. Just ask yourself, if you were the one that has to keep this class under control, and keep people that are potentially way smarter than you from gaining an advantage based on whatever they can talk you into agreeing to, what would you do (keeping the low budget guy in mind).
In my mind, first it will be just "Air Bumps", next thing you know the leaf springs will be acting as links and the "Air Bumps" wil be holding the chassis up. All because we allowed a part that has absolutely no function in a competition to be used.

More questions? Now's the time :p

More questions? Now's the time :p

Yeah, when is someone going to donate the shipping cost to get a chassis to the northeast? :D

What you need to come to terms with is, the Formula Toy concept was thought of is California, based on alot of guys having alot of conversations and then one guy stepping up and making it happen. Anyone could have done it.

Like I said before--I wasn't bitching about that fact--just acknowledging that many of us are distant from the FToy Central! I fully accept it! Fact is, there's a much larger population in CA than most anywhere else...FToy would never have gotten off the ground in Montana--there just wouldn't ever have been enough of a critical mass of people to make it happen.

But....I'm a long way from it. I may get to the Hammers 3-4 times in my lifetime, let alone 3-4 times a year, or even 3-4 times a month. I'll be lucky to hang out with 10 other FToy drivers at the WERock comp in Washington....and that weekend is going to go by too quickly! That's all my problem, not yours. Still...I benefit from building a rig that excels there!!

dude, i am dying to visit montana. whats it like up there. maybe i should bring the ftoy up there and go wheelin?

Yeah, when is someone going to donate the shipping cost to get a chassis to the northeast? :D


We will talk about it as long as you invest some money in some of my parts.:D




Thanks John for you last reply.

Here is what I have to say. This build was formatted to comp spec rules. Hopefully John asks' the BOD to vote on this. If he does I choose NOT to vote. I will also make any changes to this build to keep it within comp spec.
I did not intentionally set this chassis up so that Jim could go out and kick *ss by having a one inch visibility advantage. Hopefully we see a verdict on this shortly.

dude, i am dying to visit montana. whats it like up there. maybe i should bring the ftoy up there and go wheelin?

Have time to swing out after the Washington State comp? June-July-August, it's amazing here (good in the winter, too, if you like to ski/board). Our best whitewater is in late May/June if you want to come out and go rafting.

Our wheelin' isn't insane Hammers-style good, but it's relatively challenging, and very scenic!

I gotta get my FToy done first!!!!!

Have time to swing out after the Washington State comp? June-July-August, it's amazing here (good in the winter, too, if you like to ski/board). Our best whitewater is in late May/June if you want to come out and go rafting.

Our wheelin' isn't insane Hammers-style good, but it's relatively challenging, and very scenic!

I gotta get my FToy done first!!!!!




So if I want to head up and go snowboarding I have a place to stay?

Montana along with a Heliboard trip in B.C. have long been on my list of destinations.
Maybe I'll just come see you during deer season.:D

Like I said before--I wasn't bitching about that fact--just acknowledging that many of us are distant from the FToy Central!

Same here. I'm not bitching at all, just acknowledging the frustrations of people building a long way away from where most of the info is.

Here is what I have to say. This build was formatted to comp spec rules. Hopefully John asks' the BOD to vote on this. If he does I choose NOT to vote. I will also make any changes to this build to keep it within comp spec.
I did not intentionally set this chassis up so that Jim could go out and kick *ss by having a one inch visibility advantage. Hopefully we see a verdict on this shortly.

Here's the way I see it...with the front mounted approximately 1" over the "standard" Hendrix mounts and the rear mounted approximately 2" over the "standard" Hendrix mounts both ends are at a disadvantage over someone who is able to use "standard" mounts or go lower. In this case, this seems to be a mute point.

Although, I do agree that a ruling should be made to keep the peace and maintain the integrity of the class.

I think tilting the whole frame a bit is clever if that helps you to accomplish your setup goal.

the way I first understood it was that he "CUT" the front clip and tilted just the front clip down. that would be unaccectable form of modifying the supplied chassis.

as it is I don't see what the issue is as far as the chassis goes.

seems like a good idea within the rules. makes the required head room and helps with vision. down side is that the rear sticks up in the air and can get hung up on stuff... fair enuff

just my .02 from the guy who wrote the rules :flipoff2:

I think tilting the whole frame a bit is clever if that helps you to accomplish your setup goal.

the way I first understood it was that he "CUT" the front clip and tilted just the front clip down. that would be unaccectable form of modifying the supplied chassis.

as it is I don't see what the issue is as far as the chassis goes.

seems like a good idea within the rules. makes the required head room and helps with vision. down side is that the rear sticks up in the air and can get hung up on stuff... fair enuff

just my .02 from the guy who wrote the rules :flipoff2:






You know what. Thanks for the input! The fact that you even checked out this build enough to give your input, is quite a compliment. And thank you for being humble enough to admit that you misunderstood what I was doing.;)

FWIW-Our current national champ's rig probably has the highest mounted chassis I have seen with no noticable tilt.

FWIW-Our current national champ's rig probably has the highest mounted chassis I have seen with no noticable tilt.

Are you talking about Matt's rig? I think Marlin's Rig is higher than Matts. The bottom of the tube is 2" higher than the top of the frame rail.

FWIW-Our current national champ's rig probably has the highest mounted chassis I have seen with no noticable tilt.

How high is it? Mine is a 3.5" above the frame rails I put my chassis higher so I could attempt to run larger tires in the future if I wanted plus raising the chassis alone isn't raising the COG that much since the chassis is only about 1/4 of the weight if that much.

So if I want to head up and go snowboarding I have a place to stay?

Yeah. That goes for any of you FToy peeps. We've got space. We're 25 minutes from the parking lot at The Big Mountain (now Whitefish Mountain) and 45 minutes from Blacktail Mountain--a great family friendly ski area with very good tree skiing.

Are you talking about Matt's rig? I think Marlin's Rig is higher than Matts. The bottom of the tube is 2" higher than the top of the frame rail.

I think he means Hobies

You know what. Thanks for the input! The fact that you even checked out this build enough to give your input, is quite a compliment. And thank you for being humble enough to admit that you misunderstood what I was doing.;)

sorry for the controversey caused by my misunderstanding of how you accomplished the tilt.

digging the fab work.

camo

sorry for the controversey caused by my misunderstanding of how you accomplished the tilt.

x2 what Brett said--thanks for your interest in what's going on here. Stick around!!!




But.....what's up with Rick Astley on your myspace page?!?! :flipoff2:

We actually thought, for several months about tilting the chassis. I see no visibility gain to the front whatsoever, as the motor is the issue, not the chassis. We wanted to drop the tail of the frame, and keep the rig "looking" level.

More consideration went to that this killed the rear departure, and raised COG for appearance. Also the more the rear of the chassis went up, the worse visibility out the back.

I see chassis tilt same as wheelbase changes. The 100" guy can manuever, but kills cones on climbs. The 110" can climb, but kills cones in turns. Neither change gives an advantage, just a rig built more to suit how YOU want it to perform.

Reading this more, I wish I would have tilted my chassis. I think I would have tilted it with about a 2" rake. This would gain about 1" in head room. Also it would have giving me more tire clearance for the front by changing the angle of the first down tube and also raising the rear tire clearance by about 1.5"

This is progressive and I think that it should be allowed.

My .02

Also it would have giving me more tire clearance for the front by changing the angle of the first down tube and also raising the rear tire clearance by about 1.5"

I like that idea.

I think he means Hobies

Yeah but maybe Hobie's just looks high because he has those 5" springs. His is definitely mounted higher than mine. My point was that his has no measurable tilt and isn't mounted low on the frame either and it didn't appear to hurt his performance.

ok, we discussed this matter in the Board of Directors forum and came up with the following decision.

By tilting the chassis foreward or backward on the centerline of the frame, there is no advantage in competition. Even if you tilt it to the extreme, there are more disadvantages than there are advantages. We cannot rule on chassis height because of potential head clearance issues, and we want people to have a little creative freedom on chassis height, seat placement, and pedal placement.

:beer:

Thanks for weighing in, guys.

:cool2: It's nice to see a BOD move quickly on something like this. Thanks Guys!

Sounds good!

I just repainted the 042 car so I really dont care about all this, its staying the same height as last year. Thanks for all the drama though.

I just repainted the 042 car so I really dont care about all this, its staying the same height as last year. Thanks for all the drama though.



Hey, I'm the one causing controversy around here, I don't need you chiming in!:flipoff2::flipoff2:









I'm putting together dates on when I can deliver this chassis. I'm meeting Jim in Pheonix, and may come up with a way to bring my rig and his so that I can come out and beat up on you Az guys for a couple of days. Am I allowed to wheel with all you guys that have nothing better to do than paint their rigs?:D

I just repainted the 042 car so I really dont care about all this, its staying the same height as last year. Thanks for all the drama though.


Im glad someone with some sense chimed in on this thread.:laughing:

Im still wondering if its legal to mount the chassis level (parralel) with the frame, about 2"s above. I didnt see it in the rules. Can you guys have a vote on it?:flipoff2:


I had consider mounting the chassis tilted like Brett did when we built it. Didnt give it a second thought as to being illegal. Decided against it cause just didnt like the look, and the advantage was minmal.

So people saying "I would of done that", You may have, but you may not have either.

Bretts is looking good, but when we set my chassis tilted and had the bottom tube at a different angle than the frame, it just looked wrong. IMO

Im glad someone with some sense chimed in on this thread.:laughing:

Im still wondering if its legal to mount the chassis level (parralel) with the frame, about 2"s above. I didnt see it in the rules. Can you guys have a vote on it?:flipoff2:


I had consider mounting the chassis tilted like Brett did when we built it. Didnt give it a second thought as to being illegal. Decided against it cause just didnt like the look, and the advantage was minmal.

So people saying "I would of done that", You may have, but you may not have either.

Bretts is looking good, but when we set my chassis tilted and had the bottom tube at a different angle than the frame, it just looked wrong. IMO
WOW, what a compliment, I have sence??? Excuse me but Im getting kind of emotional and nead to go dry my eyes.

Hey, I'm the one causing controversy around here, I don't need you chiming in!:flipoff2::flipoff2:









I'm putting together dates on when I can deliver this chassis. I'm meeting Jim in Pheonix, and may come up with a way to bring my rig and his so that I can come out and beat up on you Az guys for a couple of days. Am I allowed to wheel with all you guys that have nothing better to do than paint their rigs?:D
Posted up a reply but it disappeared!! Maybe the site didnt like profanities. Let me know when you will be in town and we will hook up and do some fun runs, look forward to seeing you. (wish my other post had gone through, it took me 10 minutes to type)

Posted up a reply but it disappeared!! Maybe the site didnt like profanities. Let me know when you will be in town and we will hook up and do some fun runs, look forward to seeing you. (wish my other post had gone through, it took me 10 minutes to type)

You mean you want to scratch up that new paint? and dont get me started on the fish tank or lack of:laughing:

Mike, as long as Krylon makes Cobalt Blue Metalic , the 042 car will be pimping..

I'm putting together dates on when I can deliver this chassis. I'm meeting Jim in Pheonix, and may come up with a way to bring my rig and his so that I can come out and beat up on you Az guys for a couple of days. Am I allowed to wheel with all you guys that have nothing better to do than paint their rigs?:D

Bring it FAWKER :flipoff2::flipoff2:

Do you have an approximate date? I was hoping to get out With Grumpy next weekend, but my junk is still broke. A couple weeks after that would be perfect, or even a couple weeks after that.... Whatever just let us know.

Bring it FAWKER :flipoff2::flipoff2:

Do you have an approximate date? I was hoping to get out With Grumpy next weekend, but my junk is still broke. A couple weeks after that would be perfect, or even a couple weeks after that.... Whatever just let us know.















:laughing::laughing::laughing:
Man I love it! I can't believe this thread started because I mounted a chassis a little different, now I'm setting up a date to go wheeling in Az.


Well as of now I am racing in the KOH race,which is Feb. 22, so it looks like it will be shortly after that. I have to get Jims chasssis done and some how completely rebuild my rig before the race. Oh, and build the toolbox that we are giving away to the first place team. I think I work better under pressure.:)

And make me a hood, roof and side panels.

And make me a hood, roof and side panels.





Oh yeah, I forgot!

I guess you don't need those new links?

Well as of now I am racing in the KOH race,which is Feb. 22, so it looks like it will be shortly after that.

How about two or three weeks before the first ProRock? March 1-2 or March 8-9?

If you ever get your stuff back together, we can take 80 Proof out for some fun, :flipoff2: