ok I am in the process of putting an onboard welder on my jeep. I went to (you guess it) pull a part and found a really big old ford alternator. it said 100amp on it so I took it. well I took it to autzone and had it tested. it only test at 160AMPS!!! neat huh?

but that's not my problem. I was origianlly going to mount this on the supports to my OBA setup and run the pully off of the second vbelt on the york. everthing is great in theory.

the problem is this alternator is actually TO BIG to fit there. the fan blades on the alt will hit my upper radiator hose.

so my questions are:
1) can anyone think of a better place to mount it
or
2) how bad would it be to take off the fan blades on the alternator? how hot would it get?

PS: the wiring for on onboard 160amp welder is so easy I don't know why all of us don't have one. 1 small switched wire to "F" (field) wire of an externally regulated ford altnernator ($10 from pull-a-part) and then all you have to do is put a big old welding cable to the Bat + post of the alternator. then just ground it anywhere you can.

You certainly don't want to cut the cooling fan off unless you want to be replacing the alt often. I don't suppose you have any pics of how you were thinking of mounting it, do you? You could try rerouting that hose a little bit depending on the situation. Hard to say without a visual though.

if you got a yj (as your name might indicate), you maybe able to fab up something over by the power steering pump, that's where I'm looking to mount mine. What I haven't figured out is how to drive it, I got one of those dual pulleys on my york, but I don't want to run the belt all the way across the engine compartment, plus I don't want the compressor constantly running whenever I want to weld. I wonder if there is some type of dual pulley that could replace the stock one on the power steering pump. Maybe the kilby sells for the alternator (to run a york) would work, or could be made to work.

chad

I've got one of those pulleys that I can't use. I'll let it go for cheap if you decide you want it.

Jay

Originally posted by chadl
plus I don't want the compressor constantly running whenever I want to weld.

No need to worry about that, the pulley turns all the time anyway.

I saw a trick OBA setup where a guy tapped his PS pulley in the center (duh) and bolted on a small v belt pulley to the outside. That drove the Saden off on the side of the PS pump. Might be worth a shot with the alternator. This was my plan, but my cage, skids, and bumper fabbing got in the way a bit :flipoff2:

Originally posted by JEEP_TJ_FREAK


No need to worry about that, the pulley turns all the time anyway.



duh,



I'm a moron..


chad

Ok so you have a 160Amp AC source but that as is, is not an arc welder. how are you going to control your power?

Typically an ARC welder uses a Transformer to convert High voltage 220V AC to high amps 225AMPS it is adjustable by switching to different taps at a different number of wire widings.

In this case we have a 160A Alternator, that has an AC voltage output that is converted to DC power, I think the plan is to have some good 75-250A DC Current at what voltage though? Would a Gerator, DC power source be a simpler easier solution? I think you will have trouble with that regulator on the alternator.

What is the DC voltage ouput of an arc welder any one know? it will be low voltage, but this one will be fixed at 12V unless you build soem kind of controller.

Any ways all you have with an alternator is a good AC source, If you throw a regulator on it and run it to a seprate battery that will work but you will have no control. just a fixed ARC welder current, thats not so great!!!

Here is ckt diagram of an ARC welder as you can see much more then the AC power source is needed to have a controlable arc.

also if you run this 160 amp alternator you may have trouble with it burning our the voltage regulator on your other facotry alternotor's voltage regulator.

Can you clarify the project some more?
thanks, heep it safe


:nuke:

I'm hoping the pro's will respond to this, cause you raise some interesting questions. I've been researching this project a little, and from what I see is most people remove the voltage regulator, and use the delivered power in it's AC form, just like any old AC buzz box. Sure not quite as good as a DC welder, but far better than nothing out in the sticks. Avoiding damage to the vehicles existing electrical system is also a concern of mine. In theory you could keep the two systems completely isolated, but if the alternator has a grounded case, then it maybe possible to send some type of voltage spike back to the existing electronics, I really (REALLY) don't know. Any pro's want to jump in here and set us straight...

Chad

I don't suppose any of you hammers have read the How to build an on-board welder article, have you?

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/on-boardwelder/index.html

Just finished building mine a little while ago. My home arc welder puts out about 70 volts at 130 amps. The alt i used was out of a Cadilac. Its rated at 150 amps. You have to gut the thing. Get rid of the internal diode trio and make an extrernal one that convertrs 3 phase ac to dc and can handle the juice. Get rid of the regulator and run a 12 source right to the brushes. Mine puts out about 50 volts at idle and around 120 volts at 1900 rpm. Rev hihger and it keeps climbing, i got it as high as 165 volts. There is no need to use that voltage. Even at 120 it eats through rods. In terms of attaching the alt I think you guys are going about it the wrong way with the extra belt idea. Take a look at what I did. Much cleaner and no extra pulleys to attach to present accessories. If you just hook up an alt and use the same diode trio then you get shitty welds.
http://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v0/4/89/12/42448912QtqEMl_ph.jpghttp://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v4/4/89/17/42448917vTTooF_ph.jpg[/img]
http://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v2/4/89/20/42448920lyWSuq_ph.jpg
If those dont work go here
http://community.webshots.com/album/27298730hKPqVWqwer
So as you can see i ran a longer belt and used the power steering pump as the tensioner. the bracket made for the welder mounts next to my oba and is fixed so the alt has no adjustment.

http://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v4/4/89/17/42448917vTTooF_ph.jpg

I like this idea, the only thing is that I have a york with Vbelts running off of the existing alternator.

although this did give me an idea.

any one else running an extra long serpetine belt witha york?

Originally posted by GaJeep94YJ
any one else running an extra long serpetine belt witha york?

Like this?

http://www.jeepshots.com/shots/projects/obw/p1000514.jpg

Paul

not exactly. I was looking for a 2nd alt runing a serpentine belt, and then the york of of a v belt or something like that.

Couple of things. First remove regulator to get full RPM proportional voltage output. Second, the stock rectifier bridge might not go over 30 volts. If it burns out you'll know. Get a heavy duty 200V/200A external rectifier bridge setup. It'll cool better too. One important thing to note is that you'll be putting close to 10 HP load on the pullies/belts while welding at full tilt. Make sure you plan your drive/mount system accordingly. A single V-belt pulley will not do! Either mount it so it uses the serpentine belt (in place of the factory AC unit) or think of using a dual belt system if driven off the factory alternator. Otherwise you'll be eating up belts like crazy at that amperage. Your voltage at idle will run around ~30V and can go over 120V easy at 2500-2800 RPM. The stator on that alt should be delta wound already so there is no more tuning by rewiring possible. It's almost better to use a smaller output alt like the Y-wired 60 amp models and rewire it to delta to increase the output. The HP load on the setup will be actually less due to the smaller stator diameter size. I have some other useful info on my site if you're interested under mods.

kutyafal, Looks like we used similar aternators. Your right about the load on the motor when you strike an arc. It's insane. On question, I checked out your site and I noticed that the weld that your welder puts out have a lot of splater and not a lot of penetration. Was it the rods you were using or is it the welder itself? (I am basing myquestion on the photos alone.) What did you use for the external diode trio? I ended up making my own rectifier and it worked out well.

Originally posted by wkndboy
kutyafal, Looks like we used similar aternators. Your right about the load on the motor when you strike an arc. It's insane. On question, I checked out your site and I noticed that the weld that your welder puts out have a lot of splater and not a lot of penetration. Was it the rods you were using or is it the welder itself? (I am basing myquestion on the photos alone.) What did you use for the external diode trio? I ended up making my own rectifier and it worked out well.

Yeah, those booger welds are due to the welder. I should update those pics but no time. There is no shortage of penetration. I can burn through a 1/4 plate with a 1/8 rod no problem. Actually the second picture on my site is of some 1/4 plate with melted up edges.

I got the diode pack from an alternator shop and supposed to be from some big Ford truck alternator but I'm not sure. They're similar to model FR1292B in the Transpo-USA catalog. It doesn't really matter as long as it has the ~200V rating and they're not the Avalanche type. These have only a 30V rating and will not do.

Nice. I have frinds that want to build welders after seeing mine but they dont want to make the diode trio themselves. I'll pass on the info.

ok guys this is not very helpfull, There are many ways to make an arc welder but lets find the best way for what GAJeep94YJ has.
Hes got a high out put alternator, so it sounds like if he desables the regulator the voltage on this beast may be over 100Volts at idle, I think were shooting for like 45Volts at idle for a practical welder.

Im thinking power converter box with 110volt outlets: option 1
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/on-boardwelder/index.html

This is a great thread but lets stick to what parts hes already got.

Originally posted by ashmanjeepXJ
ok guys this is not very helpfull, There are many ways to make an arc welder but lets find the best way for what GAJeep94YJ has.
Hes got a high out put alternator, so it sounds like if he desables the regulator the voltage on this beast may be over 100Volts at idle, I think were shooting for like 45Volts at idle for a practical welder.

Im thinking power converter box with 110volt outlets: option 1
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/on-boardwelder/index.html

This is a great thread but lets stick to what parts hes already got.

You'll be surprised to know that he's going to get around 30-35V open voltage at idle also. The closed circuit voltage will be much less. I don't see your point. He's going to need variable open circuit voltage output from 50-130V to have a usable welder. I already pointed out that mounting is crucial because of the load during welding. The large case of his alternator will provide adaquate cooling but I still wouldn't remove the fan off the case. Move the hose with a bracket or get a different one.

there has been a lot of good info on here. some I don't really need (yet)

it is a ford alternator so I won't have to modify it or anything, really all I am looking for is a way to mount the thing right now. I am not going to remove the fan off of the alt that was jsut a stupid idea I had.

I was thinking about putting it on the left side of the york but by doing that I would take most of the contact away from the stock alt that would be bad. I can't mount it inetween the york and the head b/c of clearance room.


now I am thinking abuot putting it near the PS pump. but I have yet to see a clear picture of how to do that. I swear with as much as I have done to this thing it should jsut jump out at me butI can't see it to save my life. also i am going to try use the serpentine belt that is already on the alt. and adjust it using the PS puump like stock.

I wish I had a digital camera but honestly just about anyone that has a york with out AC like onboardair.com is what I have. oh yea on a 4.0

Originally posted by GaJeep94YJ

I wish I had a digital camera but honestly just about anyone that has a york with out AC like onboardair.com is what I have. oh yea on a 4.0

OK, so is your York on the left and above of the alternator if viewed from the front? Do you have factory air? If not, you could mount the alt in place of the factory AC compressor. This way it drives off the main serpentine belt which is the strongest drive method you can get.

you are right on the location of the york. pretty much like a kilby bracket but I made mine before I knew he made them.

the problem with mounting it in where the factory air is that the fan on the alt hits to upper radiator hose. I tried moving it but with the neck of the thermo housing pointing the way it is that's not possible. this alternator is huge, it came out of a lincoln and says 100amps on it but when I tested it at autozone is put out over 160ams.

you had a great idea and if I have 1" extra it would work perfectly!

I dont know if the previous pics showed up so I'll repost a couple.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid25/p17ef7d6e7359e5cb5d2f1e2fe0822068/fd8ea477.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid25/p2a6c1a40398f9ffbb16038ed6586c687/fd8ea46f.jpg

I have a york set up
http://www.dodgetrucks.org/home/nickm/york2.jpg
http://www.dodgetrucks.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8362
I want to mount one of these welders on top of the stock alt. and york. I have read other write ups. Which one has more power for welding. I like the ford idea but if the GM/Delco has more power and is cheaper well I might go that route. I read Delco write ups that didnt mention anything about a external diode trio and rectifier. Do the need to be added. What is the cost and where do they go. Any more suggestions/help


http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2472/obweld.html
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/on-boardwelder/index.html
http://www.trailhed.com/welding.html
http://www.huv.com/jon/jeep/Welder/on-board-welder.html
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/t.molnar/Obwelder1.htm
:beer: :beer:
Nick

You only need an external rectifier if the stock one on the alternator is not up to the task. These newer rectifiers usually use the Avalanche type diodes that can handle great Amp loads but to achieve this they can only take around 30V. This works great for a vehicle charging system and as a form of protection too but sucks if you want to use it on an onboard welder. Most alternators that are controlled by the EMC are like this. You're ussually better off with an older style 75-100 amp unit that doesn't have any multi prong computer plug on them. Those are easier to modify and you can use the onboard rectifier as long as the case is big enough to provide adequate cooling. Power wise a 100 amp will do a 1/4 plate easy in a single pass. It's more important to make sure that the drive system is tight and slippage free. You can have a monster 200A unit in there that will not weld worth a chip of slag if it's slipping and burning up a belt.

I'm more and more convinced that weldernators should be driven off the main belt system (serpentine or dual V-belts preferred) and have a control box set up like the Premier Power Welder system. Because of the loads generated by any alternator that is over 75 Amps it is very hard to get a reliable drive system with a single V-belt or a mounting bracket with any flex in it. Basically this involves an external rectifier and a regulator that can be switched in and out of the charging system as well as an isolator switch that isolates the output of the alternator from the rest of the charging system while welding.

What about direct drive off a pulley (In my case water pump looks easy enough)?


Can Jess make a micro double cardan shaft?

I have plenty of room for an alternator infront of my engine.

http://jeepwrangler.info/Tech/drivetrain/Engine/4cylinder/Electric_fan_1.jpg

First reply or anything on the site, but for the few that dont understand how it works, you need to read the tech artical on installing an on board welder.

After alot of research on both air systems and welders, most on this site. I got both on board systems partially installed for the 4th. The york works like a champ. I got the York & bracket for it from a 70 somthing ford truck and mounts right to the head on my 289. The 100 amp alternator with dual v belt pulley and bracket came off a ford car. The car had a York ac turned on its side, and the alternator mounted to the side of the York.
Both were on the passanger side of the engine compartment. It was a simple matter of unbolt from the car, and bolt to the side of the York, no fab required.

Long story short, I would like to thank the guys that wrote all the threads and tech on the welder. I was in a big rush to get the new transfer case in and I didn't get it hooked up all fancy but it worked well enought this weekend that I put my front drive line back together. I actually just ran a wire from the field post to the bat, and used my jumper cables for ground and stinger. No idea what the voltage or current, but it welded really well. I adjusted the idle up some on the motor with the carb idle screw.

Does anyone have a suggestion where I can find a ac voltmeter that goes up to say 150vac? and does anyone have a suggestion on brackets for a hand throttle cable?


Loading down....
here is another site that talks about setting up a welder, and he uses a couple of resisters to reduce the pull down or loading on the engine, havent sized mine yet but need to cause it really pulls when you strike an arc.

sooooo do you have any pictures of this setup??? sounds interesting enough that if I could see it, it might be worth another trip to pull apart.

Maybe you can re-route the radiator hose. You could get one of those bling bling chrome radiator hoses with the rubber ends. Once you bend the metal it will stay put.

GaJeep94YJ,
Ill try to get some pics taken today and email them to you, apparently I cant attach things yet.

thanks I would appriciate that.

You will need a red star to post the images, either pay :flipoff2: up or emil the pics to me and I will upload them.

If you are 56k the red star is worth it to kill all the banners and popups.

I aint got no red star but for a beer I will post them.:flipoff2:
http://www.dodgetrucks.org/home/nickm/console3.jpg

Originally posted by Nickm
I aint got no red star but for a beer I will post them.:flipoff2:
http://64.176.33.161/albums/2001-4X4/aca.jpg

Yeah I too have web hosting, but the majority of the users here do not.

Now what the fuck does your image have to do with an alternator welder?

It looks a hell of alot more like a ricer dash then anything else to me.

:flipoff2:

any way i have gotten both the YORK and the 2nd alternator mounted last night. put a belt on the alternator and it actually worked!!!!! the only thing left to do is make the control box. went to radio shack and they have gotten rid of all the cool stuff. only had junk left.

any way anyone looking to make an On Board Welder (OBW) this is the way to go.

http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=sethpeters&album_id=86596&image_id=2&courtesy=1

http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=sethpeters&album_id=86596&image_id=1&courtesy=1

for more pics click here http://www.printroom.com/ViewAlbum.asp?userid=sethpeters&album_id=86596

I just thought i would let you know that autozone didn't test that to be 160 amps..... the bench tester at autzone test volts ONLY on alternators ant it tests amps when testing starters.... and wildly enough where you saw 160 amps is right where 14 volts is.. the only way autozone can test your amp out put is on the car. Just thought i'd let you know

Originally posted by John Deere Ranger
I just thought i would let you know that autozone didn't test that to be 160 amps..... the bench tester at autzone test volts ONLY on alternators ant it tests amps when testing starters.... and wildly enough where you saw 160 amps is right where 14 volts is.. the only way autozone can test your amp out put is on the car. Just thought i'd let you know


The date on a thread's last post is displayed under a user's info. in this case, the last post was 7/2002.

that means that this thread is almost a year old

Just thought i'd let you know :flipoff2:

Originally posted by CheapXJ



The date on a thread's last post is displayed under a user's info. in this case, the last post was 7/2002.

that means that this thread is almost a year old

Just thought i'd let you know :flipoff2:

Yeah, and now I have to comment on you guys with flaming hot alternators... Do us all a favor, and get an alternator capable of 400A. :D

http://diywelder.com/images/offroad/altweldertestsetup.JPG

That electrodyne will cost you more than a built front D60. :cool: