hello there friends(you are my friends, right?...)

Daniel, if i remember correctly, mentioned in one of the prior 2002 TTC threads, the question of mog axles against rockwells, taking the obvious stand(for him), that 2.5 ton rockwells surely will prevail.

well, being a rockwell man myself, as you very well know, i MUST admit publicly - mog portals are undoubtedly better. sorry Daniel, but i guess that now, you too can see my point.

my reasons(not necessarily in the right order) are:

a) less weight.
b) much better ground clearance.
c) much smaller diff = less drag in mud & water.
d) almost the same driveshaft angles.
e) same strength.
f) portal - the ability to build a high clearance vehicle without making it also very tall. therefore, better stability.
g) portal - deviding the gearing load between the R&P and the wheels, which allows smaller shafts and parts carry heavy loads.

i think that JR's bronco(although not purely mog) proved the above very clearly.
it showed that a relatively small and light vehicle can run large tires and have better properties than a giant monster, using all the benefits listed above.

i must(and also want) to congratulate JR and everyone else who took part in building that "bronco" for doing such a good and inovative designing & building job, and for proving that this is the new and right way to design a capable offroad vehicle - a light, high clearance, portal geard, low drag, powerful, reliable and elegant vehicle.

i hope i wasn't too carried away, but it is a very good lesson for me. i do'nt think less of my frog, which still is a very strong and capable offroad vehicle, but the future is definitely going towards JR's bronco sort of vehicle, and rightly so.

would like to hear your pros and conss.

frog

I think that the mog portals do have there place but the main problem I see with them is that you cannot run them using a vehicle with the stock frame rails and still have a low center of gravity. I am currently building up my wrangler with rockwells and I went that way because the mog axles would only have had about an inch of up travel before they hit the frame. This wasn't helped by the fact that I was extending my wheelbase and the frame curves down at the ends of the vehicle. It may work in a stock application but with an extended wheel base it would be too tall of a vehicle to be stable in my opinion. Also they cant stand up to highway speeds. Anything over 55 and the portals will burn up. 2.5 ton trucks max out at about 60 - 65 mph with 39 inch stock tires. I figure that without the weight of a 2.5 ton truck on top of them and running 42 inch tires I should be able to go 70 without any problems, and who would want to go faster than that with 42s anyway? HA! The real downside to the rockwell is not the ground clearance. It isnt a mog axle for sure but it can be cut to about the clearance of a 44 and definitely better than a 9 inch. The only real drawback to them is the weight. There is an undeniable 200 extra pounds in unsprung weight associated with them. I am going to run them anyway and hope that over time aftermarket products will continue to come out that will allow me to drop some weight off of them. :smokin:

Gotta add my $0.02 into this :-) :
- Portals will not "burn up" at 55mph. I drive my Blazer at 60-65 okay. Max rated speed for extended periods is, however, 55 with a 39 inch tire for 404 series axles. On other portal axles, the rating is different (higher, like the 406's you were interested in).
- My Blazer is tall (8ft), but I've taken it to 30 degree sidehills now. I don't like it, but it hasn't flopped yet. I dunno what you call stable, but that's stable enough for me.
- I don't think my frame was a concern for up wheel travel, the oilpan was.

JR's Bronco is very impressive in every respect. However I don't see that type of vehicle blazing the way for more builders and trucks to follow. Why? Budget. Still, many aspects of its design will be picked up by other people, and hopefully one of them is to design the truck as a unit, where every part is balanced against others.

--Rob

Originally posted by jeeper111
I think that the mog portals do have there place but the main problem I see with them is that you cannot run them using a vehicle with the stock frame rails and still have a low center of gravity. I am currently building up my wrangler with rockwells and I went that way because the mog axles would only have had about an inch of up travel before they hit the frame. This wasn't helped by the fact that I was extending my wheelbase and the frame curves down at the ends of the vehicle. It may work in a stock application but with an extended wheel base it would be too tall of a vehicle to be stable in my opinion. Also they cant stand up to highway speeds. Anything over 55 and the portals will burn up. 2.5 ton trucks max out at about 60 - 65 mph with 39 inch stock tires. I figure that without the weight of a 2.5 ton truck on top of them and running 42 inch tires I should be able to go 70 without any problems, and who would want to go faster than that with 42s anyway? HA! The real downside to the rockwell is not the ground clearance. It isnt a mog axle for sure but it can be cut to about the clearance of a 44 and definitely better than a 9 inch. The only real drawback to them is the weight. There is an undeniable 200 extra pounds in unsprung weight associated with them. I am going to run them anyway and hope that over time aftermarket products will continue to come out that will allow me to drop some weight off of them. :smokin:

well i think best bang for the buck is rockwells. i have 9 sets right now, and have seen some advertised at very very cheap prices. i sell them for 750.00 a set[one f&r]. but i just bought a set of 404 mog axles for my kiddie hauler. i needed lower gearing and they came up cheap. i was very temped to put in a set of rockwells and be done with it. but the mogs allready had a set of lockers and lower gears. i will never take the cruiser over 70 because it scares the hell out of me and many have called me crazy. but i find that i usally get what ever i find cheap and plan that into the ride.

All good points. I just started on my 'Mog axle tube chassis and those mogs are'nt lightweight either:eek: Alot of wheelers are seeing what they already knew, and have finally gotten tired of it. Weight kills parts. axles, trannies, tcases, all of it. I have a M715 that needed more motor, so it could turn bigger tires in deeper mud, that now needs bigger alloy axles, that.... you get the picture.It weighs 6410# without the fullsize spare (40"swamper), and no trail repair tools, straps etc. For me the "clean break" was to go with a stack of tube, the axles I wanted, and lots of looking at other rigs. Frog-Glad to hear you made it home ok. I'm looking forward to the video:beer:

Mog axles are sweet, and when i build a tube buggy, i will most likely go with them. The advantages are obvious. I have rockwells now because of simple reasons. They are cheap, strong, and simple. One thing that is very true, as Jeeper stated, ios that the vehicle has to be designed around the mog axles. They are simply to tall to fit under a stock-type rig without running massive amounts of lift. Rockwells fit fine under my truck with a stock SOA, and some extended bumpstops.

So, if your gonna build something from scratch, and have the $$$, then mog axles are the way to go. If you need strong, simple, and cheap, then go with rockwells.

period.

The biggest advantage I see that the MOG axles have over the Rockwells are the selectable lockers! for comp. use nothing beats being able to unlock your axle so you can turn in a tight spot! I like the Rockwell's and plan how getting a set because locally I can buy them for $800, but if I had the $$$$ I'd get MOG's. Weight isn't really an issue, because without the drums 2.5 tons are just about 100 #'s more then 1 tons, and the clearance issue has already been covered. Mog parts are just not easy to get that's there biggest problem. I see a lot more HOME-BUILT rigs running 2.5 tons in the future, mainly because the cheap front Dana 60 market is drying up fast.

Can anyone tell me what the actual weight of a mog 404 axle is, front and rear?

Weezer- I'm "guessing" they are about 620-650 lbs each. When I got mine I had 1 front,1 rear, 5 20" wheels on about an 80 lb skid. and it was all 1550LBS from CA to IN. I'm hoping that Ryeguy will set us all straight. I DO know they make that extra D60 front I have seem like a toy:D

I may be way off here, but, I was under the impression that Rockwells are full hydro steer. If this is true, you would be crazy to drive it on the highway at 70MPH. I have seen allot of nice equipment on this board and on the trail, but everything has its limitations.

Originally posted by Daniel
Yes Frog if ya Got the Bucks I am a new believer!

Ryeguy the video was the clincher! Post it!

Mogs are better!!!


To quote a post from Airzuki..

Proof that Mog 404 axles may just be stronger than a dana 70..... (http://homepage.mac.com/pixar_imac/iMovieTheater5.html#)

Rob "Ryeguy"'s white Blazer runs unimog axles front and rear. He's got a caddy motor in that thing so you know he's got horsepower. Look at him hop that truck (he's the one on the left).

you mean theres no way you can modify a stock frame for more clearance? no way to make a kicked out low profile oil pan to fit those mog axles?:rolleyes:

Explain to me how you don't think you'd have as much "up travel" with the Unimog Axles. I need to get a visual in my head so I can understand what you're sayin.

Later

Ken S.

Nice pics Daniel of the CTIS BTW...... *schwing*

Originally posted by Scrat


Proof that Mog 404 axles may just be stronger than a dana 70..... (http://homepage.mac.com/pixar_imac/iMovieTheater5.html#)



My PC-
"Your current settings prevent ActiveX blah blah blah so you can't see the video fawker"

How do I fix this? Or can somebody re-format it?

Originally posted by Daniel
Explain to me how you don't think you'd have as much "up travel" with the Unimog Axles. I need to get a visual in my head so I can understand what you're sayin.


Well, you can have all the uptravel you want you just have to make the truck sit taller.
If you want the truck to be at the same heigh with the same tires but with mog axles you decrease the space between the frame and axle because it is raised over the centerline of the wheel.
Make sense?

[i]

So, if your gonna build something from scratch, and have the $$$, then mog axles are the way to go. If you need strong, simple, and cheap, then go with rockwells.
period. [/B]

well, i think you (and also Ryeguy who wrote about budget), may have a point here.

but, one cannot say -"if you can afford it, JR's bronco is the last word in offroad capability".

it's just like saying -"if one can afford it, Porche is the best sports car around".

it has nothing to do with ones ability to buy/hold/build such a vehicle. the best vehicles are the best even if you cannot afford them, and you probably cannot afford them bacause they are
the best....:( :(

don't get me wrong - i also wish i could afford at least one of the
two vehicles above....;)

Originally posted by bigdude


My PC-
"Your current settings prevent ActiveX blah blah blah so you can't see the video fawker"

How do I fix this? Or can somebody re-format it?


Tools -> internet options -> security tab -> advanced... look for active x stuff and check it off, if that doesnt work try putting the site under trusted sites.

Originally posted by Weezer
Can anyone tell me what the actual weight of a mog 404 axle is, front and rear?

"Official" dry weights for 404 series Unimog axles:
Front: 530lbs
Rear: 485lbs

"Official" dry weights for 406 series Unimog axles:
Front:700lbs
Rear: 620lbs

Yeah, Rockwells are cheaper - for now. And like people have said, 'Mogs already come locked up, don't you usually have to drop a Detroit into a Rockwell?

--Rob

30 degree flop angle is kinda scarry. I don't know for sure what mine will flop at cause it will always vary according to ground differences but I've had it at about 50+ degrees and it is still reasonably stable. I run Rockwells cause they are cheap but I'd for sure run the mog axles if I could get them as cheap and built the frame around them. An 8 foot tall rig just seems out of control for rockcrawling and if you are getting tippy at 30 degrees that would seem to varify my opinion. You must have a lot of sprung weight! I don't have much sprung weight left, and that would seem to be the way to go with the raised axle tubes of the mogs. Just my .02 Mog axles are definitely badass though. Just wish they were cheaper!

Originally posted by ECF
30 degree flop angle is kinda scarry. I don't know for sure what mine will flop at cause it will always vary according to ground differences but I've had it at about 50+ degrees and it is still reasonably stable. [...]

I took my Comanche past 40 degrees, but was very unstable. I've only seen a handful of built trucks that can actually go past an honest 43 degree sidehill. I'd like to see a 50+ degree sidehill picture! Not saying it isn't possible, but I want to see the pic! I get queezy past 25 degrees.

The Blazer does okay in our rocks around here. 8ft isn't bad. I've had it to 30 and it was okay, but I dunno what the flop angle actually is. Paul Cooper up here runs a truck as big or bigger than mine, same width and tire size, and will run side hills that scare most people. But the Blazer wasn't built for rocks, either.

--Rob

I'll try to get a pic for ya this weekend at the con.
:D

Originally posted by ryeguy


I took my Comanche past 40 degrees, but was very unstable. I've only seen a handful of built trucks that can actually go past an honest 43 degree sidehill. I'd like to see a 50+ degree sidehill picture! Not saying it isn't possible, but I want to see the pic! I get queezy past 25 degrees.

The Blazer does okay in our rocks around here. 8ft isn't bad. I've had it to 30 and it was okay, but I dunno what the flop angle actually is. Paul Cooper up here runs a truck as big or bigger than mine, same width and tire size, and will run side hills that scare most people. But the Blazer wasn't built for rocks, either.

--Rob

I'd say this guy is past 40deg! :flipoff2:

Originally posted by the frog

b) much better ground clearance.
c) much smaller diff = less drag in mud & water.


I still like this pic for a comparison. You can't get much better than with the Mog axles.:eek:

Phil:usa: