Well, according to the thread views, the title of this thread caught a few peoples attention. So I guess its time to fill you in.

For many years I've been interested in building a Baja-style racer. When I got into Scouts, I went to the Tulare show in California. There I saw and met Mike and/or Jeff Ismail breifly and saw there Massive tow rig and heard of their exploits racing the traveller (sorry guys, I can't remember which/who as I was a BRAND new IHer at the time). Between then and now, I've had a growing desire to build a racer, but over the past decade, I've seen and heard of a few folks racing IH's. Years past and I found myself looking up pictures of John Comer with one of his racers tearing down a track (weather it be in the mud or ice racing). Similarly I seem to have been drawn to Tom's (Mandera) threads about his adventures with his Racer. I admired from a far, seeing Tom and John's exploits, and in my mind I wanted to build an actual racer that would put IH back in competition.

About 6+ months ago, I was flown out of state by a potential customer who wanted me to look at his T-ette and Crawler for possible builds. Although nothing came of those, we were able to chat quite a bit about building a competition rig that I had in my mind. I was complaining about the lack of technology in current more local racers and using the same technology I use in my XLC kits (not new either, but at least a few centuries older), but on a grand scale and then taking it to the track for real (and hopefully) national competition. One thing led to another, and this build was born.

As my partners will attest to, this build has been sitting in the outskirts ~ severe back-burner if you will ~ since that trip. For the most part, we've kept our mouths shut ~ except to each other. One gentleman agreed to cover parts cost for me, I agreed to donate time and labor, and still another their knowledge of racing. So this build will be a one-of-a-kind racer. More of the product of a few peoples desire to put a decent [possibly] nationally competitive racer back on the track than anything else.

I'm hesitant to give the names of the people involved in this project and we're kinda getting together on this build more as friends donating time, money and effort, into a common goal. Come to think of it, this scout really doesn't belong to anyone of us in particular. But regardless, there is the background of this build. Feel free to offer suggestions or comments as you see this build come together.

We're doing this as a community project, and hope to involve the IH community. I've invited the others to join into this build and hope they will. But its up to them. If they choose not to join in, I'll simply be adding/paraphrasing their comment from our private communications as they relate to this build.

With that. I hope you all enjoy this build.

Lets start his off the 'meat' of this build with some begining pictures. Here is the chassis I aquired for the build. I got it from Mike Goodman (I think) for $300 who had it on blocks until I persuaded Gary Billings to bring it up to me when he was in Durango visiting with Mike.

It has sat on my Mom's property for the past 4ish months while I was finishing up some projects and making room for it. I don't have too much time to build this truck ~ and with the other projects (one of which you guys haven't even seen yet) ~ we're going to crank it out as quickly as we can. Goal time: 1 month.

Here's what we're starting with.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_1.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_2.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_3.jpg

Even though the scout is rough. Its got it where it counts. I need from the fire-wall to the B-pillar. And we've already started taking this beast apart. Unfortunately, as you'll see in the pictures, the weather isn't cooperating.

We started on it after old Mother Nature dropped a few inches of snow on the ground. It was cold ~ but Paul and I got right to work.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_4.jpg

As you can see, the engine is gone from this chassis, and there is several things left to make it mostly comlete.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_5.jpg

Alas, it's all for not. Everything not needed is removed.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_6.jpg

Once the insides are gutted, its time for the fenders... Paul, with his signature pose works while snow starts falling again :nono:
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_7.jpg

After Paul and I got the engine bay stripped, he started on the fenders while I tore out the dash and prep'd the door for removal.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_8.jpg

While ripping (literally) the dash out, the glove box tore open and we found some old stuff that was left behind. Sunbock anyone? Insect repellent? Funny, even the bugs were smart enough to stay out of the weather....what what wrong with us?:clown:
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_9.jpg

Dash completely stripped.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_13.jpg

We left after getting the front fenders and inner-fenders off. Doors are gone too. Getting the two fender bolts along the rockers required a bit of laying down in the snow. We didn't get any pictures of the snow falling at its max ~ but after nearly 4 hours of tear down. We were done. Before we left, I snapped a few more shots.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_10.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_11.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_12.jpg

I'll be adding more pictures as I get a chance. Hope you enjoyed the beginings of this project.

Well I guess I can update this. First, I'm super surprised I didn't catch phenomia, you all saw we took the front end apart while it snowed on us. That was a WARM day. When we went back to get it with a trailer, the high was 15. Up where the scout was...it was officially "BUTT COLD"

But with some inspiration, we were able to get the chassis on the trailer (just 3 of us) and get it home. Here's some begining pictures. I left the chassis in my garage a couple days to let the snow melt off it. Its still melting but things need to start so here we are.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_14.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_15.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_16.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_17.jpg

Good old Paul got busy with a broom and started ~ emphasis that STARTED ~ sweeping the chassis out.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_18.jpg

More sweeping.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_19.jpg

Look at all the yummies
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_20.jpg

Driver seat getting gone. I will say these were a bit of a pain. Normally the bolts simply come out from the top. So while in the great-white-north we used a sawzall to cut the bases enough to tilt them over. However, the PO replaced the floors and rockers which means mis-matched bolts and the need to get UNDER the scout. As you could tell from the pictures above, that wasn't going to happen at the property.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_21.jpg

Driver out, time for passenger.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_22.jpg

Seats gone, trash still there
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_23.jpg

Firewall, we will be completely tubing this out. Its up to Tom what design.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_24.jpg

Pay-dirt. The hole reason we picked this chassis is that the floors and rockers are still good (the PO replaced them). The rest of the chassis was getting junked anyway.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_25.jpg

Front frame rails. Man, if there is one thing I hate about working on scouts, is making this look clean and new. We are in process of cutting every last bracket and mount off the frame from the front to the rear cab mount. This part of the build sucks, and takes quite a while, but if you want the job clean, it has to be done.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_26.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_27.jpg
:eek:

With the DOM for the cage ordered up. It was time to face the nastiest job on the planet. Cleaning up the frame. I had Paul start cutting off brackets while waiting for metal on normal work, and Matt (another helper) finished them off with the plasma one night.

Today it was my job to finish cutting them off, then grind the whole frame smooth. Its a nasty job. Took hours. I was a mess.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_28.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_29.jpg

Underneath. I took a wire wheel to the frame was well. Cleaned it up pretty good ~ but man do those things spread the crap everywhere!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_30.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_31.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_32.jpg

Even took the wire wheel to the firewall.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_33.jpg

Then started cleaning up the cut lines on what was left of the body. A chalk line 2" behind where the door opening is worked well.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_34.jpg

Turns out that cutting it here makes the cut line up with the inner B-pillar support.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_35.jpg

More of the same
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_36.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_37.jpg

While cutting the floor i discovered we don't need to get another fuel pump!:grinpimp:
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_38.jpg

Glaser Steel showed up with the DOM.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_39.jpg

5 Sticks to start. Not much, but will cover the required cage (we're building off SCORE rules/regulations.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_40.jpg

Score rules change almost yearly. Make sure you are the most current and up to date. Also, if you plan on running a score series race, depending on class, the cage needs to be inspected and certified.

Good luck. Subscribed.

Very nice start. I like the plan! Subscribed.

sexy...very sexy. that black rusty tub reminds of back in the day when i bought and built my first and only scout. will be watching this build.

Very nice start!

Thanks guys. This build hopes to be something really cool. The story is pretty impossible. Keeping with the cheap-butt Scout owners psyche (sp) ~ total for the build is $3000 with a cap at $3500. But with me donating time/tools, and [what some call] fab skills, and other 'partners' donating experience, $$ and equipment they've collected over the years ~ I'm sure it'll work out. We're counting on gathered resources to keep within the budget.

There are a precious few vendors who've choosen/volenteered their products as well ~ Jeff @ IHONorth being chief among the guys willing to help. I knew he would ~ just that kind of a guy. And I know the guys involved in this build are EXTREMELY greatful for Jeffs generosity.

So far we've got a tube, a frame, link mounts, link materials, coil-overs (front and back), Air bumps, seats, and a few little odds and ends in the 'bag'. Now its up to me to finish this chassis so Tom can get it up to MT and install the motor.

Score rules change almost yearly. Make sure you are the most current and up to date.
The big problem is that we have a scout with a less-than-scout suspension. Most rules put us in what can be best called an 'unlimited' catagory. 1450 and/or TrophyTruck. Its the nature of the beast. We're building a linked/coiled rig off a leaf-sprung chassis. No way to mince words ~ we're out of the traditional 'stockish' classes.
Good luck. Subscribed.
You know Dan. I thought you'd interject here, and I'm glad you did. I could use a 118" WB quarter with a big fat flare on the side. Once upon a time you mentioned doing some fiberglass work. If you're still looking at doing that, this project SCREAMS your name. I'm not expecting anything for free ~ but if your time schedule works, give me or Tom a PM so we can discuss it. No preasure, any help is help.

Thanks folks. This build is going to hopefully get serious. We've got plans for a 392 race motor, and a bunch of small things to help give this racer an edge over what's been out there. Wish us all luck.

If this is the reason your interested in the 392 parts I have just take um. I would be glad to donate it.:smokin:

Damien,

You know Dan. I thought you'd interject here, and I'm glad you did. I could use a 118" WB quarter with a big fat flare on the side. Once upon a time you mentioned doing some fiberglass work.

Here is a thought. After checking out Tom's repeated Q-pannel damage while racing why do fiberglass? Since they arent long term what about plastic? Make a mould then use that thin stuff that you heat to comform to the mould? They wont last a long and will sun rot but, I'd think you could get more for your $$.

Damien,



Here is a thought. After checking out Tom's repeated Q-pannel damage while racing why do fiberglass? Since they arent long term what about plastic? Make a mould then use that thin stuff that you heat to comform to the mould? They wont last a long and will sun rot but, I'd think you could get more for your $$.

As far as actual replacements, I ran the first stock steel quarters for years, then install two NEW steel repops from SSS in 2005, one lasted two days, the other is still on. I replaced the damaged steel quarter with 'glass.

..and 2, almost three years later, still running the same one-steel, one-glass quarters.

If I had an endless supply of quarters, I might not be as afraid of "mixing it up" with the other trucks. :)

Easier than making a plastic fender is to just start scrounging used steel quarters. I'll have to cut open the wheel arches anyhow, and the rest of the rust just gets a quick coat of body filler and a quick paintjob.

Odds are, that before the rust bubbles through the bondo, it'll need replaced or extensive body work anyhow.

There are a precious few vendors who've choosen/volenteered their products as well ~ Jeff @ IHONorth being chief among the guys willing to help. I knew he would ~ just that kind of a guy. And I know the guys involved in this build are EXTREMELY greatful for Jeffs generosity.


"Here here!" (or is that "hear hear?") Jeff's been very helpful and generous thus far, and there really isn't much to look at yet - just your typical Scout scattered around a garage and a pile of tube - like every other Scout out there. ;)


Now its up to me to finish this chassis so Tom can get it up to MT and install the motor.


My quickie "new headgasket" rebuild is now waiting on me instead of the machine shop. Only 3-4 times what I expected to pay, but they were really doing me a favor by finding the damaged valves before I dropped one and made a big mess of things.

Hopefully the 304 will sing well past the 6300 mark now. Of course, the 304 is just a stop-gap for the next-gen race mill. (It was supposed to be a CHEAP stop-gap, but oh well)


The big problem is that we have a scout with a less-than-scout suspension. Most rules put us in what can be best called an 'unlimited' catagory. 1450 and/or TrophyTruck. Its the nature of the beast. We're building a linked/coiled rig off a leaf-sprung chassis. No way to mince words ~ we're out of the traditional 'stockish' classes.


Goal is to meet SCORE's basic safety requirements, though I have no current plans to trailer it all the way to San Diego for an inspection, then haul it home.. and turn around a few weeks later and haul down to actually go racing - unless someone that owns a gasoline refinery wants to throw down for some sponsorship.

But I might make that happen yet, and having the car built such that I *could* greatly increases the odds.

So it's being built to be fun (and fast) and to be competitive where I typically race. I may be in the "unlimited" class, but that doesn't mean I have to run against the Herbst 4x4 Trophy Truck (they don't bother to come here and race).. I will have to run against some retired CORR Pro-2s and Class 8 trucks, though - just none with "Monster", "RedBull", or "Terrible" on the sides.

Calling it a "Trophy Scout" would probably generate plenty of laughs, but it'll either be Trick/Trophy Truck or Sportsman Class in SCORE/BITD.

Generaly, you fly the inspector to you. Then they stamp it with thier squeel of approval. That way you can make any changes to the cage before too much of the rig gets done. It would be a shame to have it fully built, haul it someplace, then have them say you dont have 3" gussets on all main bar connecting points. Or something like that...

I'm sure you have done your homework. It will be interesting to watch it all come together.

If I had an endless supply of quarters, I might not be as afraid of "mixing it up" with the other trucks.

Thats what I watch racing for :evil:

I'm researching Thermoforming now it looks like you could just use a standard pannel as the mould. For this I don't think a box would be that hard to build to crank out a stack of these.

Sample: http://www.build-stuff.com/1001plans_hobby_vac.htm

Thats what I watch racing for :evil:

I'm researching Thermoforming now it looks like you could just use a standard pannel as the mould. For this I don't think a box would be that hard to build to crank out a stack of these.

Cost of materials, and where can I get more details?

I have a stack of FRP/CRP ('glass/carbon fiber) books and a few suppliers sourced out.. but hadn't even begun to look into Thermoforming.

I still have one good 'glass quarter in storage I can start from.

The link in my previous post show the idea but it is small, the scale would have to be increased.

Set up and materials appear to be much less then glass.

Here is a Brit place doing kit car stuff cheap: http://www.esp-plastics.co.uk/acatalog/body_panels_kitcar_wings.html

Home made set-up: http://www.halloweenfear.com/vacuumformintro.html

Material is going to be thermomoulded poluurethane sheet.

Want bullet proof stuff? http://www.professionalplastics.com/cgi-bin/main/co_disp/displ/carfnbr/118/prrfnbr/100383/Bullet-Resistant-Materials

I just got off teh phone with a MFG and the urethane is the right material and should hold up better in this aplication that fiberglass with less weight. Prices Monday.

you call that snow? Two weeks ago I had the scout cleaned off.
Git some. :smokin:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/larboc/scoutsnow.jpg

I'm trying to keep busy on this project as there is a race coming up that Tom mentioned a few months away. I believe he wants to try and get it there so here we go.

While I had the firewall there, I wire-wheeled it and then put a nice coat of primer on it. Eventually a flat black coat will take its place but first me must put the engine in its place and find out where it needs to be clearanced.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_41.jpg

I didn't get many pictures putting them together, but I started installing the frame sleeves w/ link mounts already on them. Normally the rear brackets are about14" from the end of the frame sleeve, but after discussing things, Tom and I decided it was in his best interest to have more wheelbase, so we're going for a seudo-traveller (even though its on a 110WB scout frame.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_42.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_43.jpg

Another change is mounting the rear lower links outside the frame slightly. This will aid in mounting the shocks you'll see later.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_44.jpg

Side shot of the front suspension mount.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_47.jpg

Now I realize that these pictures are really hard to get ~ with the body on and all. So we decided just to take it off and slide it back so we can weld up the frame brackets nice and perdy. So with Paul on one side, and me on the other, and a husky yell, we picked up the chassis and moved it onto the rear section of the frame for all this.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_49.jpg

Although this is not nessesary, it did give us a clear shot at welding the frame sleeves on.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_50.jpg

Me welding away.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_45.jpg

I put 2" stich welds 5" apart from front to back.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_46.jpg

Liberal coat of primer over the welded stuff.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_48.jpg

Unfortunatly when we picked up the body to move it back on the frame (to do above welding) Certain things....well happened.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_51.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_52.jpg
As seen, the driver side body mount (dispite having the nut taken off, just fell apart. The passenger side simply came off the rocker!

That gave me an idea. Why put on new ones ~ why not build our own where the cage can be connected to the frame! So I cleaned up the body mounts left on the frame (no rust)
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_53.jpg

Cut out some gusset plates.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_54.jpg

and fully boxed in the sides AND bottom of the frame mounts (picture prior to cleanup)
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_55.jpg

Then with the body back in place (rear cab mounts were ok so we re-bolted those down) we spaced the body up off the frame the required distance....
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_56.jpg

...Measured the space that used to be taken up by the old body mounts....
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_57.jpg

And with small cuts of DOM we built the new mounts instead of body mounts. A cage foot sits on top. Now this won't support wieght (seeing that it only attaches to the floor, not the rocker), but you'll see how it turns out in the near future.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_58.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_59.jpg

When we put the scout on its wieght, we noticed that the passenger side floor was...well....glued in with silicone. We dont have any problem with using a type of auto epoxy normally, but silicone? Well, we needed to weld the floors in better so Matt drew as good a bead as he could across the sheet metal.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_60.jpg

What to the TDO guys say? Tools, beer, and
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_61.jpg

Not to shabby ~ and 1 billion times better than the old. Put it this way, the body no longer bobbed up and down after hitting it with your hand after we re-welded the floors. More on secureing the body later.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_62.jpg

We also picked up a Chevy HD44 for the front. Here's Matt stripping the pig to nothing and cleaning it up with a grinder and wire wheel.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_63.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_64.jpg
That came out nice, now I need to grind the sides to mount the front links and get the WB dialed.

Oh, I also bent up the main hoops. We're going with 51.5" up at the A-pillar and 52" at the B-pillar (not in picture). This is not its final spot, nor will we complete the cage until the engine is where it needs to be ~ but at least you get the idea of the shape. The A-pillar hoop actually will tuck itself all the way up to the dash board. As Tom requested, I matched the 33*ish slant of the windshield so he can, if he chooses, put on one at some later date.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_65.jpg

Damien,



Here is a thought. After checking out Tom's repeated Q-pannel damage while racing why do fiberglass? .
I'll be putting a desert-race style bumpers on this rig. I've spent a little time on U-tube watching various races tom's been in and after having seen other competitors, I have to say that it doesn't look like they care much for their bodies. Some look REALLY bad.

So A compliment of bumpers will protect the front and back of the new racer. Not sure if that'll help but its worth a shot.
~ I fully expect a couple of the guys to see Tom roll in with this new rig and think: ~ oh, that's WAY to pretty.

That gave me an idea. Why put on new ones ~ why not build our own where the cage can be connected to the frame! So I cleaned up the body mounts left on the frame (no rust)
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_53.jpg


Good plan, and when all is said and done, if there's an easy option to tie the cage in right at the frame (like where your wedge was) that's another good idea.

I like the gussetted body mounts on the frame, too - I had to cut mine off, plate the frame, and then reinforce a year or tow ago when I pull the body off the frame - all in all, it seems the repeated landings after jumping a Scout are particularly hard on the body mounts.

Damian's been busy today.. while I was out getting stuck....

http://www.m4x4a.org/gallery2/d/42703-2/dcp_0221.jpg
http://www.m4x4a.org/gallery2/d/42673-2/dcp_0211.jpg

I was fielding phone calls asking about seat height, rollcage height, and various other bits while throttling through snow drifts, winching Rubicons around, and avoiding long drops. :D

I'll be putting a desert-race style bumpers on this rig. I've spent a little time on U-tube watching various races tom's been in and after having seen other competitors, I have to say that it doesn't look like they care much for their bodies. Some look REALLY bad.

So A compliment of bumpers will protect the front and back of the new racer. Not sure if that'll help but its worth a shot.
~ I fully expect a couple of the guys to see Tom roll in with this new rig and think: ~ oh, that's WAY to pretty.

Hey! I resemble that remark!
I like having my racer look nice, but when you go 6 wide into a 1 wide entry...
And frankly, if you are more concerned about the LOOK of your racer than kicking some ass, then you should keep it at the SEMA booth.

Depending on what videos you have seen, I have raced a light blue scout (I think there are still some pieces floating around on Tom's current rig) a red 80's bronco with white cage, a 70s ford flatbed (yeah, I have to give you that one) and currently a 66 bronco, green and white. And Tom left the last body damage on that one. They've all seen other people's rigs up close and personal, and one saw trees and earth/sky earth/sky. Body damage happens when you're passing. And sometimes you don't have time between races and your real job to make 'em purdy again.

Blair

There are a precious few vendors who've choosen/volenteered their products as well ~ Jeff @ IHONorth being chief among the guys willing to help. I knew he would ~ just that kind of a guy. And I know the guys involved in this build are EXTREMELY greatful for Jeffs generosity.



Thanks for the kind words. Its my pleasure to help out however I can. I'll be in touch about swaybars. I'll probably chat with Dan(binderbound) some and you before ordering them in.

So far the project is looking good.:smokin:
________
Live sex (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

http://www.m4x4a.org/gallery2/d/42703-2/dcp_0221.jpg
I was fielding phone calls asking about seat height, rollcage height, and various other bits while throttling through snow drifts, winching Rubicons around, and avoiding long drops. :D
Glad I was able to help keep you focused :evil: Honestly, thisi past weekend was a GOOD weekend for working on the chassis. Got things going...very nice to see it progressing. Can't wait to put the suspension together. Its going to suck, but be fun at the same time.

OK, so I contacted a Thermoforming plastics company in Denver..

They didn't *actually* laugh at me, but they did call and say, "You put on the quote that you need ten. Do you really mean *TEN*?"

They really like to deal with 250 minimum, but are willing to go down to 100 even.

Per unit cost would be $70-$100 ballpark. A bit less than half the going rate for FRP panels.

Of course, this is a big outfit, and they don't use low-end fiberglass molds for their thermoforming, they'd make some molds out of aluminum for a very reasonable $25-$30,000.

So, 100 quarterpanels in plastic, $7,000-$10,000. Not too bad, though I don't need 100.. except for the $25-$30k mold fee.

Oh, and that's 100 LEFT quarters and a LEFT mold. I would, of course, need 100 RIGHT quarters to match and a new RIGHT mold.

Looks like this outfit "isn't a good fit" for me. ;)

I am still looking into drape-molding (non-vacuum) a quarter. Biggest issue is heating a 4x8 sheet - ideally without building an oven just for the job.

4x8 sheets seem to run ~$20 from what I've seen, making a single quarter ~$20 in materials plus electricity and time.

The fiberglass quarters would be a sufficient mold in that case.

I say go with the plastic. Its only money right? :p

I am still looking into drape-molding (non-vacuum) a quarter. Biggest issue is heating a 4x8 sheet - ideally without building an oven just for the job.

4x8 sheets seem to run ~$20 from what I've seen, making a single quarter ~$20 in materials plus electricity and time.

The fiberglass quarters would be a sufficient mold in that case.

Do you think a powder coating oven would get the plastic sheets hot enough for drape molding? If so maybe you could look into leasing some time in their oven. The one here locally was large enough to coat my whole cage front hoop to rear. Then you would be able to maybe set a rack for multiple molds. Just a thought. I like the sounds of the fenders and would be interested in a set after you figure it all out.

Do you think a powder coating oven would get the plastic sheets hot enough for drape molding? If so maybe you could look into leasing some time in their oven. The one here locally was large enough to coat my whole cage front hoop to rear. Then you would be able to maybe set a rack for multiple molds. Just a thought. I like the sounds of the fenders and would be interested in a set after you figure it all out.

A big powder-oven would do the job - I cure my powder at 400F for 20 minutes, and this plastic sheet thermoforming stuff just needs ~300degF from what I've read.

But my powder-coating oven is ~24"x24" - it's big enough to put an oil pan in, but not a lot more.

Maybe I should experiment and see if I can make a plastic oil pan. :D

(I think the depth of the part would be a problem if I didn't vacuum-form tho')

I live in a fairly small town and they have a large powder coating business, look around I'm sure there is one within a reasonable distance that would help you out. I think it would be worth a shot to try one and see how the depth is.

A real powder oven will be plenty big. My coater has 3, two batch ovens and the process oven. The process oven is 12' wide by 30-40' long. The batch ovens are 14-20' square.

The oven here in town must be a batch oven, cause that is about the size of it. If I can help let me know.

Update.
While working on cage kits and bumpers, I started planning out the rear lower links for the racer. We could get plenty of travel with simply mounting the COs to the axle like on P3 or Rusty, but Tom brought up the possibility of getting more wheel travel by mounting the COs to the arms like the big dawgs do.

At first I wasn't interested, but as I thought about it, I figured if done right it wouldn't effect link geometry at all ~ so why not.

Started out with 2" DOM lowers (only .120 wall) ~ not normally considered safe for crawling, but this rig will not see rocks like Rusty or P1-5 ~ so I started bending while the 2" die was mounted up.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_66.jpg
The Curve allows us to mount the CO below the bolt-to-bolt line ~ this keeps the link from twisting (like it would if we had simply mounted them on top of a straight link).

Next I used 1.75" x .281" wall DOM as a weld in insert. Rosette welded both sides.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_67.jpg

Then I drew up a template for trussing the tube out of 2x6 (.120 wall) square stock. Drew it out, cut one then mapped the points every 2" to make a second for the second lower link.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_68.jpg

One with truss, one without.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_69.jpg

Two with truss, one without ends.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_70.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_71.jpg

Because the truss is so thin walled, I wanted to build some sleeves out of 3/16" wall rectangle tube. Mapped out some holes, drilled.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_72.jpg

Input holesaw ~ drilled.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_73.jpg

Cut out the pieces in between the holes and flapper-wheeled them to death.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_74.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_75.jpg

This is great. Tom - I am planning on taking most of the summer off and remodeling my kitchen, if you need pit support or photo/video work let me know. I'll be in Wyoming.

A little trimming and a test fit. Looks pretty good.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_76.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_77.jpg


Time to cut out the truss and weld the beast on.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_78.jpg

Here's a shot of the inside. I didn't just cut a hole in the top of the truss and sleeve it, leaving the whole tube open ~ I cut some small plate and gave each shock its own chamber. The plate not only keeps debris from filling the truss ~ but also attaches the walls to the tube below. I actually cut two holes into the truss, and then used these small plates to completely re-seal the truss from the shock mount area. Considering the 'hole' is 1.5" wide and 4" deep, welding it was a pain in the :eek: Afterwards, I put the sleeve on and re-welded the entire structure again.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_79.jpg
The welds you see above the shock holes is where the sleeve meets where the truss was cut, this makes the bolt go through both walls for more support. There's a little more to go (for strength) but you see where I'm getting at.

So far what the lower links will end up like. Not 100% done, but close enough to give a good idea.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_80.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_81.jpg

Looks good man. I know on the faster trucks, they replace every joint every race, because they are junk by the end. Making teardown easy will help a lot. How long are the lower arms? The 120"wb trucks run about 5ft long.

Keep it up.

Looks good man. I know on the faster trucks, they replace every joint every race, because they are junk by the end. Making teardown easy will help a lot. How long are the lower arms? The 120"wb trucks run about 5ft long.

Keep it up.

I'm hoping to avoid joint replacement at each race - but maybe every 500 miles. ;)

The lower arms are short - based on Damian's rear 4-link kit, they're 36" end to end (~40 OAL with joints?).

On the plus side, the engine is getting shoved back 12", so we also stretched the rear suspension back 12", which will keep the geometry the same relative to the rear output of the transfercase.

The front, OTOH, is a challenge. Damian's said the front and rear suspensions are designed for a CV at the t'case, so moving the rear axle back 12" should work out just great.

OTOH, it means that the front suspension was expecting ~24" long driveshaft that is now 36-38" long.

I'm contemplating a 2-piece shaft that puts the CV forward ~12" from the t'case, but then that makes the articulating shaft pretty short again. I need to call Tom Woods and chat for a few minutes.

Damian - where did the rear shock hole wind up? What's the length from front pivot to the shock mount, and from front pivot to rear pivot?

I'll figure out where that puts us on travel. At ~24", it was 20+" at the axle IIRC using the 16" x2.5 SAWs.

This is great. Tom - I am planning on taking most of the summer off and remodeling my kitchen, if you need pit support or photo/video work let me know. I'll be in Wyoming.

They're planning to have more races in Powell this year, and I'm planning on making more. :)

There's one scheduled for Feb, but I won't be heading down for that - I need to get tires on my tow rig (and 4wd still..) and I'm not sure I'll have the old chassis put back together in time anyhow.

There's a race 60 miles from home in March though. I'm going to start putting the 304 back together and get things prepped.

Update.
While working on cage kits and bumpers, I started planning out the rear lower links for the racer. We could get plenty of travel with simply mounting the COs to the axle like on P3 or Rusty, but Tom brought up the possibility of getting more wheel travel by mounting the COs to the arms like the big dawgs do.


A dumb question is the one not asked:

What's a COs?

Thanks :homer:

-Gary

A dumb question is the one not asked:

What's a COs?

Thanks :homer:

-Gary
CoilOver

updates!!!!:D

Lots of communication, and figuring out stuff. Not much on the build. We're getting some RPT stuff from Mike @ IHO (motor mounts and trans mount). Then I can mount the engine back a bit. After that, we can hack the firewall for clearance, then build it back and finish the cage. After that, the suspension will be finished up and then Tom gets to come get it for finish work, installation of the real engine/trans, and some RACING!

I've been making some progress (aside from rounding up more parts and talking with Mike Ismail earlier this week - in addition to the excellent RPT (http://www.ihonly.com) engine mounts and trans mount, Mike extended an offer of pit support n' such if/when I make it down to Vegas for a "real" desert race).

I've been running the RPT mounts for the last 6, 7 years? I broke a 727 case running the stock mounts, and after paying for another tranny build, opted for the RPT stuff and have had no troubles with 'em since.

Well, I did hurt one, but it didn't fail. Eventually one of the frame side engine mounts failed, and the engine tried hard to escape out the bottom, which deformed the RPT mount, but it never failed.

Not bad when you're dropping 4,000lbs of IH out of the sky.

Anyhow, I have the 304 back from the machine shop and have started putting it back together - or at least, preparing to put it back together.

(The built 392 is also in the works, but the 304 is closer to race-ready right now).

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/41263-1/02_04_08_2307.jpg

Chrome adds 30hp, right? And drops 30lbs to boot..

(It's a new almost-chrome color powder-coat I wanted to try out)

Looking sharp!

A big powder-oven would do the job - I cure my powder at 400F for 20 minutes, and this plastic sheet thermoforming stuff just needs ~300degF from what I've read.


Excellent idea! I would just ensure that you jump in stages, say 150F, 225F, 300F to make sure you get an even temp. I'm told that is the #1 thing on plastics.

You could also make vaccume box for the fender and hook it to a shopvac to place inside the big oven.

Looking sharp!


Thanks! The rust pitting in the pushrod cover shows up really well, but most of that is hidden under the intake anyhow - and as long as it looks good from 100' at 100mph, I'll be happy. ;)


Excellent idea! I would just ensure that you jump in stages, say 150F, 225F, 300F to make sure you get an even temp. I'm told that is the #1 thing on plastics.

You could also make vaccume box for the fender and hook it to a shopvac to place inside the big oven.

'cept my oven is ~24"x24" square.. not enough for a fender.

I do have access to an oven big enough to make a plastic Scout inside, but I'm not sure I want to impose that much (and it's 150-200 mile drive away) - unless I knew for certain it'd all work out.

I bought a roll of polyethylene (and I'm going to check with a club member that works at a sign shop about buying 4x8 sheets perhaps) .

I'm pondering putting the polyethylene into a frame and draping it over my FG quarter panel, and then see how poorly things turn out if I heat the plastic unevenly, with a heat lamp (or a 500w Halogen) and just let it sort of sag around the panel.

I know I can powder-coat in this manner (heating one section of something at a time and working the heat over/around the part).

I'm not looking for a perfect result (certainly not yet!), just.. something that looks good from 100' at 100mph.. :)

The other thing that comes to mind is to buy a steel quarter, and simply heat the quarter itself to 300F while draping the plastic over the plug. The steel would definitely heat better and more evenly. It'd be just like makin' waffles. :D

And if I'm still ambitious enough about this and still don't have a good solution by then, there's talk of turning one of my 8' IH pickup boxes into a crude sheet oven.. :evil:

Coupla interesting things tonight.

Spoke with Jeff Ismail @ IH Only North (http://www.ihonlynorth.com) at length about the anti-sway bars but still haven't come to a complete conclusion on what rate just yet.

Also asked around about a source for some plastic sheets, and a fellow Scouter and club member that works at a glass shop has access to sheets of lexan and other items - and bonus, he has experience thermoforming hot-tubs (which they'd then use fiberglass to lay up some stiffness)

Looks like I need to get into the electric-oven dismantling business and round up some heating elements and build a sheetmetal oven..

he has experience thermoforming

So when you get this oven put together, do you plan on heating and letting the plastic slump, or do you plan to add some vacuum to draw the "putty like" sheet down against a mold?

So when you get this oven put together, do you plan on heating and letting the plastic slump, or do you plan to add some vacuum to draw the "putty like" sheet down against a mold?

My current thought, if this goes forward, is to just "drape" mold it - no vacuum.

Partly because I have a set of fiberglass quarters that I'd use for a mold, and I don't want to drill holes in the FG panels just for the vacuum.

If it works out well enough, maybe I'll get fancy and buy some new steel quarters and weld on some end-caps, and drill it for a vacuum pump and go all-out.

The video I saw of it you use a sheet a bit larger than the mould and the vac portion isnt on the mould. After that you trim the extra.

wow ! looks real nice, lots of pics.

My current thought, if this goes forward, is to just "drape" mold it - no vacuum.

Partly because I have a set of fiberglass quarters that I'd use for a mold, and I don't want to drill holes in the FG panels just for the vacuum.

If it works out well enough, maybe I'll get fancy and buy some new steel quarters and weld on some end-caps, and drill it for a vacuum pump and go all-out.

The video I saw of it you use a sheet a bit larger than the mould and the vac portion isnt on the mould. After that you trim the extra.

I agree with NVScouter.
The information I saw on vacu-forming was set up with the sheet on a frame that had an airtight seal to the vac portion on the bottom. The item you wanted to form around sat on the vac portion spaced up so there could be equal suction around the item.
-Chaz

X3, the sheet vacuum former I used many years ago looked like a big sandwich press. It was about 3' x 3' had a heating element in the top, a sliding frame to hold the plastic sheet, and a the bottom had a preforated sheet with the vacuum.

Put the part you want to copy on the bottom, clamp the sheet in the center frame, turn on the heating element. Raise the plastic sheet to the top (like a broiler oven) once the plastic got soft, lower the frame down over the mold, hit the edge clamps and turn on the vacuum pump.

I never did a large part like a quarter panel, but I think you could do it with out haveing holes in the mold.

There's a race 60 miles from home in March though. I'm going to start putting the 304 back together and get things prepped.

Where's that race, Great Falls? If you can, hit me with a PM and let me know, I'd like to go watch. I was a little surprised to see your collaboration with Damian on this project; I'm excited to watch as it progresses.

Where's that race, Great Falls? If you can, hit me with a PM and let me know, I'd like to go watch. .

Yep, south of GF in Cascade, MT on 3/15.

Just got home a few hours ago from Ice Racing in Bozeman.. with the daily-driver Scout. :)

??

Well, I've been putting the old 304 back together so I can campaign the old racer some more before the new one is ready..

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/41900-1/DCP_0328.JPG

Hope to get it installed this week and the rest of the car prepped before 3/15.

Any updates on the new racer?
Inquiring minds and all.

Yes, I'll post some stuff in a bit.

Well, I've got a little time so I'll update what I can..

Racer is doing good. I've got a few things in and have built another few things. I'd like to get the front suspension finished before hacking off the back end, but we'll see.

I believe I left off with the rear arms. I guess I'll start there.

To insure the CO is below the line made from connecting the front joint with the rear joint we put them below the surface in these 'boat' arms (if that makes sense). This keeps the arms right side up dispite the load put on them. The holes we drilled in earlier were oversized so we can cut out some spacers (made from DOM) and weld those spacers such that the shock stays centered in the link (doesn't flop around on the bolt).

Once the spacers were made, we inserted them in with the shock and got them centered.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_83.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_84.jpg

Then a tack weld kept them in place.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_82.jpg

Oddly enough, I don't have a picture of them fully welded w/ the excess cut and sanded smooth so use your imagination ~ if you will. The shocks should use a 3-3.5" half inch bolt when said and done. We chased the holes after we were done to make sure there wasn't any slag left in there. After that, the bolt and shocks fit in there pretty tight!

The next big thing to report on is the front suspension. We used our standard mounts for the front.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_85.jpg
But instead of using our normal 2.250" (3/8" wall) DOM, Tom had us make it out of 2" (.120 wall) DOM. We didn't need all that beef since this rig won't be seeing boulders. The upper link is 1.75" DOM as our normal, but only .120" wall instead of .281".

The tricky part was connecting the two together. Tom wanted to connect the tubes together as close to the frame-side joint as possible to minimize any possible chance of bending the links from the torque generated by axle wrap. Our normal links connect near the center of the lower link ~ Tom was worried that the thinner materials combine with the forces of off-road racing may generate enough 'push' to actually bend the lower link at the connection ~ so we pushed that point as far back as possible. This also spreads any such loads out over the length of the arm, not just at the one point.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_86.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_87.jpg

These notches were tricky. After drawing a rough part to cut, I used a cut-off wheel to get the rough shape.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_89.jpg

Then I used a flapper wheel to feather the parts down till they matched.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_88.jpg

The seams were then welded up.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_90.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_91.jpg

I would have loved to leave them like that ~ Not sure if they'd be strong enough, but even so ~ I added a tube near the upper axle joint.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_92.jpg

Both together.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_93.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_94.jpg

Mounted in the truck.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_95.jpg

Once the spacers were made, we inserted them in with the shock and got them centered.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_83.jpg


How much side to side angle does it accommodate? When the axle articulates, the entire trailing arm will want to twist - first at the axle end joint, then at the front mount, which will rock the entire "boat" around the lower shock mount, which will need to articulate enough that the heim doesn't bind up and bend the shock shaft (BTDT).


But instead of using our normal 2.250" (3/8" wall) DOM, Tom had us make it out of 2" (.120 wall) DOM. We didn't need all that beef since this rig won't be seeing boulders. The upper link is 1.75" DOM as our normal, but only .120" wall instead of .281".

The tricky part was connecting the two together. Tom wanted to connect the tubes together as close to the frame-side joint as possible to minimize any possible chance of bending the links from the torque generated by axle wrap. Our normal links connect near the center of the lower link ~ Tom was worried that the thinner materials combine with the forces of off-road racing may generate enough 'push' to actually bend the lower link at the connection ~ so we pushed that point as far back as possible. This also spreads any such loads out over the length of the arm, not just at the one point.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_86.jpg


Looking good, Damian.

Before you call them done, plate one or both sides with some light gauge sheet steel. No more than 1/8" mild.

By making the triangle as long / large as possible (bringing the joining point as far back as reasonable) we get by with lighter material only because by tying the two sides together into a triangle we make the top and bottom stronger together much stronger than either would be singly.

By plating at least one side, we amplify that strength advantage. If you have some dimple dies, here's your chance to put a dimple in either side plate and weld the two dimples together in the middle (don't want the radius arm filling up with mud). It would look fast, but mostly add strength and maybe save a little weight.

In unrelated news, the 304 lives again, and runs OK so far. Still a bit of the "new engine, I'm cranky" going on, but by the end of Saturday that'll mostly be gone after I do a "run it like yer gonna" break-in on the race course in Cascade - just like we did the first time this engine was put together. I was making passes down a drag-strip in Brighton, CO and after a couple passes we had to jet the carb up because the rings seated some more and it was pulling more vacuum.. repeat after a few more runs..

Next I have to say a BIG THANK YOU to Mike @ IH Only in Lancaster. He's the guy behind the RPT line and he hooked us up with some of his finest.

Box arrived. Hum...stickers.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_96.jpg

A box of boxes!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_97.jpg

Money shot
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_98.jpg

Motor mounts
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_99.jpg
Trans mount
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_100.jpg

You can always tell a successful line of product when you see you have #2930!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_101.jpg

In the way of suspension. I also got a bracket from PolyPerformance.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_102.jpg

This is their axle-side track bar. We went with this unit over anything else because allows us to MAXIMIZE the TrackBar length on this beast.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_103.jpg

A little Chipotle Burrito?
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_104.jpg

Na ~ its the high-misalignment high-strength heim end for the new bracket.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_105.jpg

Fits tight ~ almost like they were made for each other!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_106.jpg

Holing the bracket up to the axle housing.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_107.jpg

The other reason I used PolyPerformance's bracket was that it offsets itself so that you can push it really close to the knuckle AND still fit a coil-over next to it (sloped back that is).
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_108.jpg

It'll need trimming to get to the final fitment, but you guys get the idea.

For those of you who dont know, the goal is to get the track bar as long as the DragLink will be. This will minimize bump-steer. Normally you can get away with having a difference, since most people don't abuse their stuff like this will. But considering the rig will see more time in the air than most scouts on jack-stands ~ its important to minimize bumpsteer.

That's all the time I have today folks. Maybe later ~ maybe more.

How much side to side angle does it accommodate? When the axle articulates, the entire trailing arm will want to twist - first at the axle end joint, then at the front mount, which will rock the entire "boat" around the lower shock mount, which will need to articulate enough that the heim doesn't bind up and bend the shock shaft (BTDT).
Not much at all actually. You'll have to check and make sure the jam nuts at the frame don't come loose to keep the lower link straight. That being said ~ the sides of the arm can be hogged out down to the double-wall thickness for more 'angular' action. I was thinking of doing that just because, and there will be no strength problems by doing it.


Looking good, Damian.
Thanks. I was hoping you'd like it. Just need to put that motor in now and finish the rear up. As you know, the cage is coming along but I'm waiting to finish that until the motor is in. I'll also be finishing up the firewall mods at the same time.

Before you call them done, plate one or both sides with some light gauge sheet steel. No more than 1/8" mild.
Man, I'd hate to ~ I like the look of tube ~ and honestly, I don't think there's going to be enough strength gain in it to make a difference, but regardless, I've got some dimple dies coming to do just that. I think we'll do both sides and then leave small drain holes near the 'connecting tube' for cleaning.

Oh, and pick some colors man, these arms are getting powdercoated ~ and no, you don't have a choice in the matter :D :D :D

By plating at least one side, we amplify that strength advantage. If you have some dimple dies, here's your chance to put a dimple in either side plate...
Hey man, waddya know ~ great minds eh?

It would look fast,
Oh man, you had me at 'hello'

In unrelated news, the 304 lives again, and runs OK so far. Still a bit of the "new engine, I'm cranky" going on, but by the end of Saturday that'll mostly be gone after I do a "run it like yer gonna" break-in on the race course in Cascade - just like we did the first time this engine was put together. I was making passes down a drag-strip in Brighton, CO and after a couple passes we had to jet the carb up because the rings seated some more and it was pulling more vacuum.. repeat after a few more runs..
Good stuff. That engine looks oh so sweet too. I wish it had an aluminum intake, but save that favor for a 345 or a 392 :evil:

We're going to have to get Rob to fly me up there with his cheap tickets so I can drive this thing at least once when its all put together. I'll even have you take me for a real lap to scare me a bit. ;)

Next I have to say a BIG THANK YOU to Mike @ IH Only in Lancaster. He's the guy behind the RPT line and he hooked us up with some of his finest.

You can always tell a successful line of product when you see you have #2930!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_101.jpg


http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/3949-3/DCP_0017_002.jpg

#1147 is the one I damaged in 2006. It had been in the racer since 2001. Either 1146 or 1148 is still in the racer.

I've had good luck with IHOnly's mounts.

Oh, and pick some colors man, these arms are getting powdercoated ~ and no, you don't have a choice in the matter :D :D :D


LOL.

I keep thinking of a poll to see what everyone thinks I should do.. but Michelle went to a photography retreat last weekend and among other things, Red is a good "fast" color that pops off the photograph when taking action photography.. and it just happens that I was contemplating reversing the black/red theme to red/black for the new car.. bonus, IH Red is sold at the farm store. ;)



Good stuff. That engine looks oh so sweet too.


Thanks, looks a bit better than it used to! It didn't help that a month after it was built it took a bath in an alkali mud pit that ate all of the paint off..

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/41921-1/DCP_0333.JPG

I wish it had an aluminum intake, but save that favor for a 345 or a 392 :evil:

:nod: With the 345/392 under way, I didn't want to buy a 304 4bbl intake for the stop-gap / backup engine, but I do intend to ask Mike about a beer-can intake for the next one.

For that matter, I might get back to the sheetmetal intake for the 304, just because.

BTW, I have some "LPG" style 304 intake gaskets on the motor now, blocking the exhaust cross-over for a cooler intake charge - and more crankiness when cold.


We're going to have to get Rob to fly me up there with his cheap tickets so I can drive this thing at least once when its all put together. I'll even have you take me for a real lap to scare me a bit. ;)

There's also the track in Powell that isn't too-long of a hoof from Denver. Take your wife n' kids to the rodeos in Cody, or cruise into Yellowstone while you're in the area. Plus, 4.5 miles at speed can be fun. Robert's GF had a good time, despite some 2-wheel action, last October.

"Ice racing" in the arena at RMIHR just won't be an adequate demonstration.

So, what are the plans for weight distribution, corner weights and front to rear on the new ride? Got scales?

So why not solid mount the power train like on real race trucks?

Also, your gonna want to build some sort of skin for the lower tubes. The trophy ranger has .120 chromoly links and after 500 miles of pre-running they looked awful. No failures but it has since been beefed up.

So why not solid mount the power train like on real race trucks?


Good question. My VW Baja has a solid mounted transaxle (and engine but it just hangs off the transaxle anyway). It's a pretty standard 1st step when building a baja bug. FWIW.

So, what are the plans for weight distribution, corner weights and front to rear on the new ride? Got scales?
I want to divide it up such that if you add up the corners, it equals the wieght of the whole vehicle ;)

But really. I don't have any 'goals' per say. I'm moving the engine back completely behind the front axle ~ moving the radiator as well. lightening it up as much as possible and if needed, wieghing down the back a touch with spare tires and such. With stretching the rear axle back and moving the front axle forward, I'm really not sure what the net effect will be. I'm sure it'll fly better than stock ~ how much? Don't know.

Any ideas before I make engine placement permanent? Anyone?

So why not solid mount the power train like on real race trucks?
Because this is a Scout ~ not a truck...DUH! I do what I'm told (mostly) ~ Engine mounts included. It would have definately made mounting a little easier...but hey, when is building scouts supposed to be easy?

Also, your gonna want to build some sort of skin for the lower tubes. The trophy ranger has .120 chromoly links and after 500 miles of pre-running they looked awful. No failures but it has since been beefed up.
What do you mean? Tom and I have talked about sleaving the bottom for more strength ~ is that what you're talking about?

Got a few minutes..

Cage was just hanging out for a bit, but I finally got to put some work into it.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_109.jpg

The outer section worked out good ~ took a CRAPLOAD of flapper-wheel work to get the notches just right ~ landing on the curve wasn't the best idea.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_110.jpg

Middle X started.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_111.jpg

...more...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_112.jpg

Welding it up
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_113.jpg

Sweet ~ it holds Pauls hand up, its gotta be strong enough..
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_114.jpg

And with that, I'm outta time...more coming.

A little more.

Here's our junkyard 9-inch. I was pleased to find a 78 F150 that was clean, straight and without anything taken yet and saw this rather clean 9-inch. You know, I went to the 'cheap' junkyard (sells any axle for $99 regardless of what it is) to pick this up trying to save a buck on the build. Turns out that they now charge for the drums AND a core charge for the axle :confused:
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_115.jpg
At least its in good shape.

Even with ~ freakin thing was dirty. Luckily not as much goopy stuff, but it did cover me is silt.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_116.jpg

Swept & pulled the 'new' axle under the chassis
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_117.jpg
~ Here's another pet peave. Why is it I can take a freakin wire wheel to the whole frame and most of what's left of the body and still get misc crap covering the ground under the scout?

Pulled out the axle dolley to help move the axle around.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_118.jpg

Test fitted the truss ~ made sure it'll fit.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_119.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_120.jpg

Welded on the lower link mounts. I put them below the axle centerline ~ Normally I wouldn't do this, but this time I did to keep the joint-to-mount 'deflection' to nothing.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_121.jpg

Pinion angles a little high, but looks pretty good.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_122.jpg

Since the axle was in, I was able to get the end-all wheel base. It'll be about 116.5" ~ should make for a comfy and stable ride.

So why not solid mount the power train like on real race trucks?


Good enough for 852 = good enough for me? :D

Hadn't really occurred to me. I have this far that solid mounting leads to fatigue failure from vibrations, but I have nothing solid to back that up.

When will that race-glass be ready?


Also, your gonna want to build some sort of skin for the lower tubes. The trophy ranger has .120 chromoly links and after 500 miles of pre-running they looked awful. No failures but it has since been beefed up.

Looked awful as in - dings from rocks and such?

As Damian alluded, I was thinking of taking a length of 2.25x.120 and slice it in half, and just sleeve the bottom half of the lower tube, making the bottom 1/4" thick and adding tons of strength.

On the weight.. the old car is 3800lbs. It has a lot of interior sheetmetal, and the cage is (dare I say it) Sch40 in many places - heavier and weaker than the DOM being used.

I suspect the new one will be heavier when we're done, with extra rollcage, the extra wheelbase, and other upgrades, though I hope it won't be much more than the current 3800lbs mark. An LS1 would sure help with that, but it'd take away some of the charm (huh?!).

Since the new car wasn't ready in time, I had to go flog the old one today.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/42402-1/img_3986.jpg

Only good enough for 2nd place in the Comp-Mod obstacle, while I was seriously outgunned in the baja even before I threw the power steering belt and then melted the shifter cable on the headers and got stuck in 1st gear. I have a hard enough time competing with 460-Ford Class 8 trucks when the Scout is at 100%, let alone handicapped. Hopefully that'll change with this new chassis.

Motor's doing fine though. Rings have done some seating.

My arms hurt, and I haven't slept much this past week (loaned my trailer out a week ago, it came back broken, so it had to be fixed AND the car prepped with things like assembling and installing the engine..), so it must be time to turn in for the night. :D

I want to divide it up such that if you add up the corners, it equals the wieght of the whole vehicle ;)

But really. I don't have any 'goals' per say. I'm moving the engine back completely behind the front axle ~ moving the radiator as well. lightening it up as much as possible and if needed, wieghing down the back a touch with spare tires and such. With stretching the rear axle back and moving the front axle forward, I'm really not sure what the net effect will be. I'm sure it'll fly better than stock ~ how much? Don't know.

Any ideas before I make engine placement permanent? Anyone?


Work on corner balance and put as much as possible between the axles and low as possible too. Just doing that will make the truck feel way lighter to steering input. Much more nimble and controlled. It won't feel like a Scout. :D

If I were to do one, the trans would be separate from the engine and far back as possible. With engine plates, an easy task.

Also since this rig will really be flying low, do you have an oil Accumulator since you have no dry sump?

You know on my rig, I only have an 300# difference between the front and rear axle weights with a 1/4 tank fuel, the 8274 on the front and with driver.

Good enough for 852 = good enough for me? :D

Diva-la-Mandera! ~ you know, I may just have to make a sticker that says that ~ that is, if it means 'Mandera the Diva' :D

Hadn't really occurred to me. I have this far that solid mounting leads to fatigue failure from vibrations, but I have nothing solid to back that up.
Mike was good enough to sponser us, and they've been really good for you before, so my thought is to keep them. What's the downside of having good urethane RPT mounts? I'm not sure the chassis vibrations will be bad, but I know they may be annoying ~ expectially as the engine sees the next few years abuse and starts vibrating more.


When will that race-glass be ready?

OH TELL ME we're getting some quarters soon. I've got the rear end mocked up and trussed and I was just thinking how nice it'd be to have some quarters to build the rear cage work around.

On the weight.. the old car is 3800lbs....I suspect the new one will be heavier when we're done, with extra rollcage, the extra wheelbase, and other upgrades, though I hope it won't be much more than the current 3800lbs mark.
I'd like to see as close to that as possible. I wish we had $$ for aluminum links, but still, as close to that as possible (emphasis on lower).

An LS1 would sure help with that, but it'd take away some of the charm (huh?!).
Indeed. We could put a LS1 in there ~ and a narrowed Jeep liberty front clip and call it a 'jeep' RockRacer!

Since the new car wasn't ready in time, I had to go flog the old one today.
:p
http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/42402-1/img_3986.jpg

Great picture. Nothing like beating a rig and capuring it on video/camera. You seem to have a knack of capturing that angle makes me think ~ 'we'll need more tubing'. Can't amagine what got you in that position, but link me the video when you get the chance ~ I wanna see!

Only good enough for 2nd place in the Comp-Mod obstacle, while I was seriously outgunned in the baja even before I threw the power steering belt and then melted the shifter cable on the headers and got stuck in 1st gear. I have a hard enough time competing with 460-Ford Class 8 trucks when the Scout is at 100%, let alone handicapped. Hopefully that'll change with this new chassis.
Your up against a 460 with an IH304? Holy crap man, time to get that 392 built! It may not rev as high as the 304 but it'll build power sooner.

Motor's doing fine though. Rings have done some seating.
Great to know.
loaned my trailer out a week ago, it came back broken
Dude I hate that. When I borrow stuff, if it breaks, I take care of it. People who don't make me mad. My buddy barrowed my trailer once and brought it back with no wiring ~ turns out he didn't make sure the wirirng wasn't rubbing the ground while in motion and the whole thing got trashed. I made him replace it ~ never was 100% after that.

Work on corner balance and put as much as possible between the axles and low as possible too. Just doing that will make the truck feel way lighter to steering input. Much more nimble and controlled. It won't feel like a Scout. :D
Moving the motor back as much as we are should push allot of wieght to what is currently looking like a weight-free rear end. Not sure how much to put back there but I'm thinking the front should be a little heavier but not much.

If I were to do one, the trans would be separate from the engine and far back as possible. With engine plates, an easy task.
Where would you put the transfercase and how would you deal with the short rear driveshaft?

Also since this rig will really be flying low, do you have an oil Accumulator since you have no dry sump?
Mmmn... Accumulator. Hey Mr Race guy ~ got one to lend out?

You know on my rig, I only have an 300# difference between the front and rear axle weights with a 1/4 tank fuel, the 8274 on the front and with driver.
How did you acheive that ~ besides going with a chevy mill.:D:p:laughing::grinpimp:

We last saw our hero rescueing a damsel in distress...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_123.jpg
Oh ~ sorry, wrong alter-ego:shaking:

Well it was time to center the axle under the frame and install the rear upper links. Normally they are tapped 1.75 x .281" DOM ~ this time they're 1.75" DOM with weld-in bungs to save weight.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_125.jpg

Couple more vies.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_126.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_127.jpg

Then we were robbed.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_124.jpg
(no rear frame)

After confirming the truss was centered and such, we gusseted it back to the housing. The nice thing about Ford 9-inch axles is that they're steel, so you can weld to any part of them.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_128.jpg

Gussets from the truss to the top of the tube via bumper drops.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_129.jpg

Top trussing done.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_130.jpg

A bit ago, Tom told me a story about a string ~ push the string, pull the string ~ Something about a string. We started the conversation with trussing and how he wanted the bottom of the axle trussed so I figured the string was a medifor (sp) for life and family.

With that, we put the axle on its lid
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_131.jpg

Broke out some long cardboard.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_132.jpg

Made pictures with chalk ~ (Ahem...soapstone)
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_133.jpg
The metal used was 2x3 box (3/16" thick) what we use for our Signature Sliders. It seemed to be in supply, and more importantly fit the contour we were trying to gusset.

So with a little bit of cutting with the plasma, some grinding with a well-used flapper wheel, and a whole lot of dust and patience.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_134.jpg

Then more of the same...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_135.jpg
I'm telling you folks. With all the consumables I've been using on this beast, I wouldn't be surprised at all if I used well over $100 in JUST consumables ~ you know, cut-off wheels, plasma tips/electrodes, welding tips, grinding wheels, flapper wheels, and sanding wheels. Luckily, the wire brush seems to be holding up like a champ. Its almost like they're made of metal! :confused:

Then after what seemed to be an eternity of welding, then letting it cool, then welding, the letting it cool, then....well, you get the picture. The axle assembly wieghed in at close to a billion pounds, but was ready to be put back into the chassis.

From the back
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_136.jpg

Side(ish)
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_137.jpg

Back on the jackstands.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_138.jpg

Ok Tom. We need a few things here. I need some measurements. I want to know how much room (in inches please) between your current frame rail (bottom of) and the axle (top of). Since we are going with 35s on this beast, and you currently run 31s, lets figure out how much room you want. Please, include what you currently have, and what you want.

Second, I'm going to need to mock up the steering so I need knuckles, spindles (have them), wheelbearings and hubs (if possible) so I can put this thing together. I want to set up the trackbar up front AND the HySteer ~ getting that finalized.

I'd also like to get some 35s (most likely from a local guy) so that I can put the front fenders/clip on and mock up the engine cage and fender mounts/tabs as well ~ wouldn't want to trim the fenders wrong or put a piece of tube where the tires are going to be.

I will also be needing some quarterpanels to mock up the rear tube work. As you can see, the rear frame is gone. I may be loosing more of it, but I didn't want to cut before the crossmember until I made another to make sure nothing moves.

Sidenotes:
1) Cutting the rear frame off was great, lots of room to move in the shop (spelled 'g-a-r-a-g-e') now.

2) Please also note that while I was working on the rear axle, Tom was out having fun 'racing' (you have to picture me making quotation marks with my fingers while you say 'racing' ~ it adds an element of sarcasm that wouldn't be there otherwise ~ of course, I'm just poking fun at Tom ~ but still, get the full effect and imagine it). :laughing:

3) Also notice that the garage was open with daylight making pictures hard at first, and now the door is closed, its snowing and there is no sign of daylight outside the garage-door windows. Just another Saturday at the Grihalva home.

Scratch that ~ I just searched and found a measurements thread I posted a few years ago with Rusty.

Great picture. Nothing like beating a rig and capuring it on video/camera. You seem to have a knack of capturing that angle makes me think ~ 'we'll need more tubing'. Can't amagine what got you in that position, but link me the video when you get the chance ~ I wanna see!


There was supposed to be an S turn at that point in the course, but they didn't mark it as such, it was marked "wide" - so you could zig zag around a large berm/hill/ride or you could just pin it and go straight up n' over, which was the faster line. :D

That picture was taken from a higher vantage point, looking down a bit onto the Scout, to give you a better idea of how leaned-to-the-driver's-side it was. Good thing I had poor Steve in the #2 seat for ballast. :D


Your up against a 460 with an IH304? Holy crap man, time to get that 392 built! It may not rev as high as the 304 but it'll build power sooner.


I do OK in the obstacle race. IIRC I was 48sec, and the 460 Class 8 was a little under that.

But when you talk about a 20 minute event and a chance to really feel out the course, it's hard to keep up.


Dude I hate that. When I borrow stuff, if it breaks, I take care of it. People who don't make me mad. My buddy barrowed my trailer once and brought it back with no wiring ~ turns out he didn't make sure the wirirng wasn't rubbing the ground while in motion and the whole thing got trashed. I made him replace it ~ never was 100% after that.


One equalizer was destroyed.. and while I was in there, found the spring bushings were overdue for replacement all around.. still need to do two bushings before I'm done.

Then some planned upgrades start next week with a stronger tongue, break-away kit, finally hard-wiring the winch, and a receiver hitch on the back of the trailer along with a rewire to 7-pin connectors.


Moving the motor back as much as we are should push allot of wieght to what is currently looking like a weight-free rear end. Not sure how much to put back there but I'm thinking the front should be a little heavier but not much.


The extra WB should allow the fuel cell to be put between the axles, too.

I believe the technical term we're talking around is polar-moment-of-inertia.

There are actually a few desert guys that prefer to push the weight out to the edges. It's a preference thing, I think. Some prefer the center-mass, some prefer the ends.


Where would you put the transfercase and how would you deal with the short rear driveshaft?


Speaking of.. got that engine mocked up yet? What do the driveshaft lengths look like? :D

No, the engine is not mocked up, but I did get a trans housing to help with mounts.

A bit ago, Tom told me a story about a string ~ push the string, pull the string ~ Something about a string.


Point of that discussion, for those following along at home, was that an under-axle truss can be both stronger and lighter than ANY over-the-axle truss, because when you try to bend the axle, you're trying to stretch the "string" (steel truss) lengthwise, and it doesn't really want to do that (note how there used to be kits for a "cable truss" that was under-the-axle on a SII and others).

When you put the same design on top, you MUST affix the truss at many locations to the axle tube, because when the axle wants to bend, the "string" will just buckle / push outward and provides little to no strength.

You can fix that by using a stronger 'string' and putting in more stand-offs, but you're adding weight at the same time.


Then after what seemed to be an eternity of welding, then letting it cool, then welding, the letting it cool, then....well, you get the picture. The axle assembly wieghed in at close to a billion pounds, but was ready to be put back into the chassis.

From the back
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_136.jpg


Any thought on a rear-truss to keep it from bending when I hit a tree-stump? Or do you think we don't need to add any more weight to the boat-anchor? :D


Ok Tom. We need a few things here. I need some measurements. I want to know how much room (in inches please) between your current frame rail (bottom of) and the axle (top of). Since we are going with 35s on this beast, and you currently run 31s, lets figure out how much room you want. Please, include what you currently have, and what you want.


I'm not as concerned about belly-clearance or axle-to-frame clearance as I am about travel ratios ( whaddyall think, 60% up, 40% down, or 40/60?) and even more importantly how that relates to the driveshaft.

We should aim for a ~15deg driveshaft angle at ride height, to maximize U-joint longevity, and 25-30deg at full droop. With driveshaft lengths in hand, I can work the trig backward to get where we should be and then massage it a little.

I suspect it'll have a little stink-bug look to it, with the nose a little higher than the rear, but maybe not.

Also a factor is what the squat/anti-squat figures are at various ride-heights with your link setups.

I'll see about some measurements off the current car, tho'.


Second, I'm going to need to mock up the steering so I need knuckles, spindles (have them), wheelbearings and hubs (if possible) so I can put this


Knuckles shipped on Friday.

I may be loosing more of it, but I didn't want to cut before the crossmember until I made another to make sure nothing moves.


Definitely a good plan. No need to remove it until we're sure everything is triangulated up and square.


2) Please also note that while I was working on the rear axle, Tom was out having fun 'racing' (you have to picture me making quotation marks with my fingers while you say 'racing' ~ it adds an element of sarcasm that wouldn't be there otherwise ~ of course, I'm just poking fun at Tom ~ but still, get the full effect and imagine it). :laughing:


Hey now, let's also note how little I slept the last week or three getting the old car put back together so I could keep campaigning.

Blair came up and gave me a hand Friday night.. we hit the sack around 1am, then up before 7 to finish loading up, eat, and take off for the race.

I'm still a bit stiff n' sore today from all of the "fun" :D


3) Also notice that the garage was open with daylight making pictures hard at first, and now the door is closed, its snowing and there is no sign of daylight outside the garage-door windows. Just another Saturday at the Grihalva home.

When it started snowing yesterday, I decided to skip washing the Scout and save that for another day..

I didn't know that Tom was using me as ballast but now that I think about it, all the puzzle pieces are coming together...
Exhibit A: Tom has a forced air helmet with tear offs on the visor and I get the helmet that the visor doesn't even close. Proof that he does not care if I am able to see the race and am therefore ballast.
Exhibit B: The drivers seat is mounted higher than the passenger allowing for better visibility. Proof once again that the passenger is not there for watching the race, but for providing low center of gravity weight.
Exhibit C: The battery is mounted directly under one of the feet of the passenger causing the passenger to be more concerned with putting the 3" of protruding bolt through his or her calf than with the race going on. Proof that he has little to no concern of the safety of the ballast...er...passenger as long as the weight stays the same.

Seriously though it is a blast to ride in the current scout and I can't wait to ride in the new race scout.

I didn't know that Tom was using me as ballast but now that I think about it, all the puzzle pieces are coming together...
Exhibit A: Tom has a forced air helmet with tear offs on the visor and I get the helmet that the visor doesn't even close. Proof that he does not care if I am able to see the race and am therefore ballast.
Exhibit B: The drivers seat is mounted higher than the passenger allowing for better visibility. Proof once again that the passenger is not there for watching the race, but for providing low center of gravity weight.
Exhibit C: The battery is mounted directly under one of the feet of the passenger causing the passenger to be more concerned with putting the 3" of protruding bolt through his or her calf than with the race going on. Proof that he has little to no concern of the safety of the ballast...er...passenger as long as the weight stays the same.

Seriously though it is a blast to ride in the current scout and I can't wait to ride in the new race scout.

Try and get him into desert racing. Then your a needed asset. Nothing like barking out turn directions, MPH readings, gauge status, and general comments. Then when something goes wrong its your fault too. See, he would really need you then.:p

Try and get him into desert racing. Then your a needed asset. Nothing like barking out turn directions, MPH readings, gauge status, and general comments. Then when something goes wrong its your fault too. See, he would really need you then.:p

Tom may or may not have some difficulty distinguishing between the red, yellow and green flags they use to control the race, so even in the small course in Cascade a co-pilot can be helpful. I think that the new truck will have gauges centrally mounted so that the passenger can monitor the truck as well, and there is talk of in helmet radios as well.

I believe that most of the desert trucks give the driver a tach and the co-pilot is responsible for the rest of the gauges, but I don't think that Tom will always have ballast (co-pilots) to get in the truck with him.

So I guess Tom wants me to mount the driver seat higher than the passenger seat ~ Thats helpful seeing that the seat mounts are next on the cage. :D :D

Point of that discussion, ...."string"...."string"....stronger 'string'....
See, something about a string ;)



Any thought on a rear-truss to keep it from bending when I hit a tree-stump? Or do you think we don't need to add any more weight to the boat-anchor? :D
Its a boat anchor because I was lifting it, attached to the links, with one hand as I slid the jackstand underneath. As of now, I'm thinking about a rear truss. I'd like to ~ but I'm not going to lie, building that axle Friday afternoon, and was the only thing I did on Saturday ~ so it wasn't going to happen then :crybaby:

I'm not as concerned about belly-clearance or axle-to-frame clearance as I am about travel ratios ( whaddyall think, 60% up, 40% down, or 40/60?) and even more importantly how that relates to the driveshaft.

I think you are right about the trans clearance. Don't want uptravel where we can't use it.

I suspect it'll have a little stink-bug look to it, with the nose a little higher than the rear, but maybe not.
I hear its all the rage.

Also a factor is what the squat/anti-squat figures are at various ride-heights with your link setups.
You're going to kill me, but I didn't run them. Last time I ran them ~ was on Rusty. Had over 100% antisquat all the time, but it varied depending on how high I actually made it. I think I ended up with somewhere in the 117% anti-squat ~ its somewhere in Rusty's build. Anyway, it was near identicle to a comp buggy I found here so I was satified.

The following will probably piss a few people off, but hey, until I'm proved otherwise, its my thoughts on the matter.

I designed the 4-link before all the AS/IC crap was a big deal. I remember a conversation between Led and a fellow XJ buggy at the Best-of-the-West outing in AZ in Feb 2005. The guy just went through his 4-link design siting numbers and why his hole placements (what hole he used in the pre-fab 3-hole wonder-brackets) was the best setup with numbers rattling off. He then looked at me and Led and asked ~ what do your numbers look like ~ the answer came from Led. "Numbers?" he said with a surprise, "Those are only important on Pirate."

I'm well aware that AS and IC have been around long before I've been doing these 4-links ~ but at the time I designed my system, they were not house-hold names as they are now ~ most people were happy just to see that 4-link done. Now my customers and I have done some rude calculations with various downloadable programs and such here that put our systems REALLY close to what people on this board have said was ideal, but at the same time I'm fully aware that the calculations vary a bit if you load up your scout, or lift it more than whatever scout was measured in the first place.

I'm NOT saying that AS and all that crap is not important ~ nor am I saying it should be ignored. But frankly, I've done several 4-links on several makes and models being used as 100% crawlers and street driven weekend warriors ~ and frankly despite the lack of exact numbers backing my design, the system has never failed to give PERFORMANCE where it was needed.

Tom will be one of the first actual RACE applications where hard acceleration will be a common occurance. Am I worried? Not in the slightest. After driving P3, Rusty, and more recently Evo ~ I know that the system works in a WIDE variety of situations, and I look forward to seeing it prove itself once again.

Knuckles shipped on Friday.
Cool.

Definitely a good plan. No need to remove it until we're sure everything is triangulated up and square.
Exactly.

See, something about a string ;)



I designed the 4-link before all the AS/IC crap was a big deal. "Those are only important on Pirate."



Being from the "let's try this" school, I worked with the calculator on my rear 4-link and ended up with a lot of number I certanily didn't understand. If I think back, I got a lot of different definitions on AS/IC etc here and on other boards as well.

That being said, I have have 3 adjustable positions on my upper link frame mounts, and there is a significant change between the preformance in the 3 link positions.

I would absolutely include this adjustment on my next set up, then I can set the AS just where I like it, regardless what the numbers say.

So I guess Tom wants me to mount the driver seat higher than the passenger seat ~ Thats helpful seeing that the seat mounts are next on the cage. :D :D

For the record, the passenger seat sits lower because it can - passenger doesn't *really* need to see, and it's that much extra room between their noggin' and the ground when it goes over. For that matter, the passenger seat was a long-after-thought.. long after the battery was mounted, too. :)

And Steve did help me out last year.. "Why are you stopped?" "The spotter is waving a red flag" "No, that's GREEN for GO!" "D'oh!!"


I think you are right about the trans clearance. Don't want uptravel where we can't use it.


Hmm.. anyone here want to tell me how great and/or how expensive it's going to be to run a 2-piece front shaft? Run a straight shot forward from the Dana 20 to just in front of the 727, then a carrier bearing and a CV joint?

Still need to jack the engine up a little (or at least, not lower it) so that the carrier bearing is near where the front output is supposed to be, relative to the radius arms up front.


The following will probably piss a few people off, but hey, until I'm proved otherwise, its my thoughts on the matter.

Tom will be one of the first actual RACE applications where hard acceleration will be a common occurance. Am I worried? Not in the slightest. After driving P3, Rusty, and more recently Evo ~ I know that the system works in a WIDE variety of situations, and I look forward to seeing it prove itself once again.


I don't believe the "numbers" are the be-all/end-all, but I do believe they can help us make decisions, and to quantify changes to the geometry. You can use the numbers to explain WHY, if you move the upper mount point to the second set of holes, you get THIS result, and maybe it'll clue you in that another inch of change will move things further in the intended direction to get some desired result.

I also know the desert guys scoff at the "crawler" folks with the "throw it together, run it, and see what ya think" suspensions - and that for the high-dollar crowd, these suspension numbers ARE important and DO mean stuff to 'em. I'm not competing at the level where a few % of AS will mean the difference between winning and losing, but there are folks out there that it would mean the difference.

CORR or WSORR's Pro-2/Pro-4 classes would be a good example where being off a few points could very well mean a loss. Not unlike NASCAR in that regard.

Fortunately, I'm putting a Scout up against Early Broncos, late TTB Broncos, solid axle big-broncos, short-box pickups, Blazers, CJs, XJs, Dodge pickups, Subaru wagons... at least, when I don't wander too far from home.

Subaru wagons...

For real? I've seen those things go forever and make it through some pretty gnarly stuff, but I hope your scout is coming out on top when you are racing the suby's!

As far as numbers go, I will admit I don't know squat :flipoff2: But I think Tom raises a good point, it gives you a reference point and insight into where you need to go, and how to adjust.
Maybe this is the next step in refining the D&C 4-link. Sure it has worked so far, but building in some adjustment, particularly on a race car, seems appropriate. Again, I'm just a casual observer, but if I ever make it to a race, and Tom needs some ballast, I want the ride to be from the front of the pack, so anything that will help get him there should be considered.

For real? I've seen those things go forever and make it through some pretty gnarly stuff, but I hope your scout is coming out on top when you are racing the suby's!

As far as numbers go, I will admit I don't know squat :flipoff2: But I think Tom raises a good point, it gives you a reference point and insight into where you need to go, and how to adjust.
Maybe this is the next step in refining the D&C 4-link. Sure it has worked so far, but building in some adjustment, particularly on a race car, seems appropriate. Again, I'm just a casual observer, but if I ever make it to a race, and Tom needs some ballast, I want the ride to be from the front of the pack, so anything that will help get him there should be considered.

As long as you don't drive, Tom will make it fine. :flipoff2:

Looking good!:smokin:

Any word on what swaybars you guys want to use?
________
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Looking good!:smokin:

Any word on what swaybars you guys want to use?

We've been talking about 'em, but I'm still anti-sway-bar-dumb.

Hey, wasn't Dan going to share some wisdom on anti-swaybars?

In the mean time, I need to read-up some more on the subject.

We've been talking about 'em, but I'm still anti-sway-bar-dumb.

Hey, wasn't Dan going to share some wisdom on anti-swaybars?

In the mean time, I need to read-up some more on the subject.

Yeah, I need to talk to Dan anyway. If anything we can start in the middle(rate wise) or do some experimenting and go with two significantly different rates and switch them around front to back but that requires some testing. I do have steel arms here for when your ready. They are for the larger 1 1/4" sway bars.
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We've been talking about 'em, but I'm still anti-sway-bar-dumb.

Hey, wasn't Dan going to share some wisdom on anti-swaybars?

In the mean time, I need to read-up some more on the subject.

Who? Me?

All I know about sway bars is the bigger they are the stiffer they are.:D Then it comes down to material. For what your doing Tom(length of race, weight of rig, type of racing) I think the off the shelf 1 1/4 ones will be fine for you. The stuff I mentioned earlier in the thread was more for 800 hp, 36" wheel travel, 100+ mph, and needs to survive an entire 1000 mile race. I think with this fancy new car, your gonna have to do a lot more prep. Inspecting a lot more of the moving parts more often. Just ad sway bar to the list. Just make sure the bar is a 'standard'(lenght/size) piece so if you do break one it doesnt take 6 weeks to get a new one.

I would absolutely include this adjustment on my next set up, then I can set the AS just where I like it, regardless what the numbers say.
I hear that. I'm not trying to say that the # are not important, but I think too many people put too much emphasis on them ~ maybe I put too little emphasis on them.
I don't believe the "numbers" are the be-all/end-all, but I do believe they can help us make decisions, and to quantify changes to the geometry. ....move things further in the intended direction to get some desired result.

There ya go.

For the record, the passenger seat sits lower because it can - passenger doesn't *really* need to see, and it's that much extra room between their noggin' and the ground when it goes over. For that matter, the passenger seat was a long-after-thought.. long after the battery was mounted, too. :)
Speaking of which ~ Can you give me a measurement from the bottom of your seat to the floors? I need to start mocking up the seating.

Looking good!:smokin:
Any word on what swaybars you guys want to use? ~ If anything we can start in the middle(rate wise) or do some experimenting and go with two significantly different rates and switch them around front to back but that requires some testing. I do have steel arms here for when your ready. They are for the larger 1 1/4" sway bars.
I just sent an email to Tom regarding that. I'd be happy to take whatcha got now. The steel arms, 1 1/4" bars would do just fine to start with. IF they don't work, or Tom wants less/more, we can always swap them out later. I'm quickly getting to the point where I'll need to mock something up so I know where to put the rest of the tube/stuff. So something is better than me guessing where to put stuff.

Who? Me?

All I know about sway bars is the bigger they are the stiffer they are.:D Then it comes down to material. For what your doing Tom(length of race, weight of rig, type of racing) I think the off the shelf 1 1/4 ones will be fine for you.
There you have it ~ the expert has spoken ~ SHIP IT!

I think with this fancy new car, your gonna have to do a lot more prep. Inspecting a lot more of the moving parts more often. Just ad sway bar to the list. Just make sure the bar is a 'standard'(lenght/size) piece so if you do break one it doesnt take 6 weeks to get a new one.
He's got a great point. I think that the new racer will need quite a bit of tweeking and adjusting as things get wore in ~ or Tom gets more crazy :D. Tweeking is always a natural part of a racer's life ~ expecially with an all new rig to thrash on. I do believe leaving things 'off the shelf' lengths will be benificial to the 'maintainance' aspect down the road.

Oh, Jeff ~ speaking of sway bars. Where do you mount them. I've seen them in back, but I'm not 100% on where you normally mount them in front. If you can post some pictures for me ~ to give me an idea ~ that'd be great.

If anything, if we get two different sizes, I'll use the stiffer one in back (as a 4-link is more prone to sway than a 2-link).

Oh, Jeff ~ speaking of sway bars. Where do you mount them. I've seen them in back, but I'm not 100% on where you normally mount them in front. If you can post some pictures for me ~ to give me an idea ~ that'd be great.

If anything, if we get two different sizes, I'll use the stiffer one in back (as a 4-link is more prone to sway than a 2-link).

Here are a couple of pics of different projects where we used them both front and rear with leaf sprung suspensions. I feel that locating them on a coiled rig will be a tad tougher as the coils/coilovers are right in the spot where the arms normally cycle. I have a few ideas but have yet to test them out(see PD's build as I'm waiting on parts). I'll get the swaybars ordered and will try to get some more of a common bar to begin with. Is 36" long gonna be fine or do you want something a touch wider(we normally use 36" bars on the Scout II's)? If theres a choice do you prefer pillow block mounts or delrin bushings that fit 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" tube? The delrin bushings will be much easier on my pocket book;).
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I feel that locating them on a coiled rig will be a tad tougher as the coils/coilovers are right in the spot where the arms normally cycle.
Yupper ~ that's goign to make it tight. My immediate thought is putting the front one before the front axle and the rear one behind the rear axle with the arms facing towards each other.
I have a few ideas but have yet to test them out(see PD's build as I'm waiting on parts).
Ya, saw that in the build. Its amazing how I can be quoted a week turnaround for 'on the shelf' parts, and then end up waiting 2-3 months. The first few XLC kits I put together were like that ~ I guess the problem was I ordered to much and they figured they'd wait till it was 'comfortable' to ship. Anyway, I feel your pain in that department.

I'll get the swaybars ordered and will try to get some more of a common bar to begin with. Is 36" long gonna be fine or do you want something a touch wider(we normally use 36" bars on the Scout II's)? If theres a choice do you prefer pillow block mounts or delrin bushings that fit 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" tube? The delrin bushings will be much easier on my pocket book;).
The Delrin bushings is fine, and I'd perfer it honestly. Its just that the rear bar will be mounted to tube work, and putting tube to tube is a matter of a hole-saw. For the front, I'll figure something out. Perhaps a RuffStuff Shackle Hanger welded to the frame ~ clean, simple, strong.

36" if fine as well. Gives a little clearnace on the frame. Since I"m planning on mounting the front one up to the front of the frame, can I get one of those nifty bend arms that helps clear the steering box?

I've seen some of the front sway bars mounted behind the radius arms buckets with the links run as far forward as possible and mounted to the outside of the radius arms. Tire and driveshaft clearance is an issue on those, though. And generally you have to have a much stiffer rate to make up for the extended arms.

And, at least in the rear, have you ever used the arms with extra holes in the arms for adjustment?

On the anti-sway bars..

In the rear, where the frame is or was is where the air-bumps should be mounted - perhaps they can be mounted outboard of the frame, or sunk right into the frame, but wider is better.

With the coil overs mounted to the trailing arms, that frees up space around the axle.

A WIDE anti-sway could be mounted forward of the axle and come out around the coil overs. Dunno how nicely that'll work out.

Or a NARROW one could be inboard of the frame and mount up to the inside, but would be less effective.

Both scenarios, with the bar forward of the rear axle, would require careful placement of the bar to make sure the driveshaft doesn't get into it at full bump (since we're planning 4-5" of up-travel beyond horizontal)

The upside to mounting it forward is we're keeping the weight centered on the chassis, and it's already a strong area of the chassis.

Mounting the bar to the rear frees up some room, but then it has to be mounted to the rear cage structure that hasn't been built yet. As long as it's far enough away from the rear bumper to avoid damage, we'd be fine. From this direction, it works out nice to have the coilovers on the trailing arm, giving LOTS of room to mount the anti-sway bar to the axle just behind the coilover.

Up front things get a little more crowded with the shocks mounted to the axle, along with the panhard and everything else.

One thing that I just thought of is to make sure that when the bars are mounted, they'll ALWAYS move with axle movement. Maybe it's a non issue, but I was thinking that the swing of the axle needs to be taken into account when mounting, so you don't get a "dead" spot where bar's natural arc of travel and the axle's arc match up such that they negate each other and "no movement" happens. But since we're mostly concerned with one side going up and one down, maybe it's a non issue. If anyone does think this situation can happen, then it's more important to mount the sway-bars near the pivot point of the suspension.

He's got a great point. I think that the new racer will need quite a bit of tweeking and adjusting as things get wore in ~ or Tom gets more crazy :D. Tweeking is always a natural part of a racer's life ~ expecially with an all new rig to thrash on. I do believe leaving things 'off the shelf' lengths will be benificial to the 'maintainance' aspect down the road.

Ease of maintenance is a big issue for me. I don't just drop it off at RacePrepInc. between events.. it goes back to my shop, and if I'm feeling energetic, I go over it. If something is actually broken, the broken piece gets fixed, and a lot of other stuff gets overlooked due to time constraints.

Ideally the new rig would debut late this summer with time enough for at least one race as a shakedown and a winter to make corrections. Dunno how realistic that is, given time and money constraints (and all of the other crap I keep thinking I want to get done), but it would be ideal.

36" if fine as well. Gives a little clearnace on the frame. Since I"m planning on mounting the front one up to the front of the frame, can I get one of those nifty bend arms that helps clear the steering box?

I'll be sending both front and rear arm sets with the drop bend in them(those are in stock). I'll get the matching delrin bushings for the 1 1/4" swaybars. As for width these are the options in 1 1/4" 48 spline(which is what I'm sending you) - 32", 33", 34", 35", 36", 36.5", 37.5", 38.5", 39", 40.5", 42" and 43". And then of course each length has multiple spring rates to choose from. Also, some are solid bars and some are tubular and vary thickness.

Do you want me to send you the arms first so that way you can mock up different widths on the chassis to see what works best? You can substitute the actual swaybar for a regular piece of tubing. The other part I need to know is what length links you might need as I only keep one size in stock but again I can order in a different length or use 1" tube with threaded inserts(that way you can fab them up whatever length needed).
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So I can use 1" tube to mock up the sway bars right ~ meaning I fit 1" tube in the arms and tighted the arms on it like it was splined right? If so, we can do that for mock up, but I think 36" will be the bars we use.

So I can use 1" tube to mock up the sway bars right ~ meaning I fit 1" tube in the arms and tighted the arms on it like it was splined right? If so, we can do that for mock up, but I think 36" will be the bars we use.

Yes and no. You will need 1 1/4" tube for mockup and probably have to sand down the ends a bit in order to fit them into the splined arms.
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Yes and no. You will need 1 1/4" tube for mockup and probably have to sand down the ends a bit in order to fit them into the splined arms.

Man, you high-dollar pros.

1" (or 1 1/8) tube and a roll of duct-tape! Just wrap it around the end until you get a decent fit. It'll even give the arm clamps something to bite into, but when you're done, the 1" tube can be recycled into a tie-rod.

Not like we REALLY need a good fit for mock-up purposes. :)

I definitely think a mock-up width would be a good thing so we can experiment with bar placement fore/aft and inside/outside.

On a related subject, Willy Cunningham has stepped up and offered to sponsor as much bailing twine as we need. I guess they have it aplenty in Wyoming, and Willy has both an SSII and a KB, so he probably has a good stash set aside.

1" materials for a TieRod? ARe you mad! We're high-dollar pros, we use at least 1 1/4" :D :D :D

Willy C! Great guy. Can't wait to use whatever bailing wire he's got stashed. Its probably the good stuff, since he's used to having to hog-tie rowdy teenagers. :D :D

Gee thanks Tom... Now every yahoo with a "race" truck will be hounding me for sponsorship. Quick tech tip for Damian: the twine wont work for exhaust hangers you need to use the bailing wire...

now get back to work!

Thanks for the tip there Willy ~ I'll be sure to remember that.

IF ANYONE HAS SOME 118" QUARTER PANELS, PLEASE HELP, WE'RE DESPERATE. EITHER somewhat rusty if fine but cleanly cut off so I can ue them for skins, or if someone is nice enough to help the build with some new FB ones, even at a discounted price, that would be great! Please let me know.

ABC junkyard off royer st had a decent travler but that was about 2 months ago. skins didnt look to bad.

May have to call Monte and ask what they want.

Swaybar arms, bushings and links are on the way. I sent two different sets of links to give you options on length.

On the quarter panels might want to call Coonrod and ask him if he has any.
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Awesome news. Thanks Jeff.

On the swaybar subject again..

Final decision can't be made until the engine is in place, but with the engine moved back, couldn't the anti-sway bar be mounted at the front of the frame, and the arms run rearward INSIDE the frame?

They would probably have to stop in front of the front axle, if only because I suspect that's about where the radiator will sit (an inch or so forward of stock, when indexed to the crank, but still ~11" back from the grille).

As long as the steering doesn't get in the way..

That way you'd have the coil-overs outboard of the frame, the air-bumps IN the frame (or nearly so) and the sway-bar links INSIDE of the frame.

PUtting the swaybars inside teh frame means they won't have much leverage to do their job.

PUtting the swaybars inside teh frame means they won't have much leverage to do their job.

No argument there, but if it doesn't fit otherwise.. ;)

Plus, to combat the less effective sway-bar, we compensate with a higher rate bar.

Just like changing arm-length on the bars.

MAN,,WHAT A COOL BUILD,,,IS BUILDS LIKE THIS THAT GETS ME OUT TO THE GARAGE AND FINISH MY JUNK UP,,,GOOD WORK:grinpimp::grinpimp:

Holy moses! I haven't updated this thread in a bit. I guess its time.

Finished up the rear X in the main hoop.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_139.jpg

Door bar in.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_140.jpg

A little change up on the door bar is to bend it out to give more elbow room. This wouldn't work if we had doors in there, but for a racer, its good.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_141.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_142.jpg

Dash bar in ~ this will serve as the start of the racers dash. This one is DOM, the rest will probably be smaller diameter non-dom.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_143.jpg

The front skins were then put on for some figuring on the engine compartment cage work.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_144.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_145.jpg

But I couldn't help but to draw up a tube bumper
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_146.jpg

With a tube base set, an old steering box was mocked up to see where I could put the shock mounts.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_147.jpg

Quickly I realized that I didn't like that placement of the hoops. So after a quick conversation with Tom, we decided to move the box forward, and then use some shock-towers like P3 had.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_148.jpg
This would allow a REAL strong coil-over mount that could be expanded to two shocks if needed.

The front tube worked ended up like this.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_149.jpg

Paul got a little taste of being married welding things in.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_150.jpg
(he's in the dog-house ~ get it?)

Everything welded. Just need to mount the steering box and mock up the sway bar.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_151.jpg

The rear tube work and coil-over mounts were next. Looing at things in retro-spect the first mockup of the coil-overs in the arms was a little high.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_152.jpg

But I knew we needed to cut out the rear frame to make room for the coil-overs and their coils ~ which would have rubbed the frame pretty hard with the old frame.

To narrow the frame and get the height we wanted to fully comress the rear suspension, I used more 2" DOM and bent two identicle lengths to create the rear 'frame' section.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_153.jpg

The forward section of frame will be stuck into the stock frame and welded in, then we'll plate that open area to keep things strong and clean.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_154.jpg

While jack stands kept the tubes level, a ratchet strap and some bars were used to snug up things until we had the rear tubework level and square.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_155.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_156.jpg

With the back end square, we (Paul and I) started building connection the two rails with more DOM
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_157.jpg

Ummm ~ welding.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_159.jpg

Paul like it!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_158.jpg

Next we had to jack the axle up to full stuff.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_160.jpg

This will bring the truss just above level with the TOP of the rear tube work. If the stock frame was still there, the truss work done earlier would be interfering with the frame...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_161.jpg

The shocks could then be put at full compression and tubes bent that will serve at the shock's mounting points.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_162.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_163.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_164.jpg

From the back.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_165.jpg

As you can see, the tubes didn't have to be nearly as high as I suspected them, this was a relief adn I was having a fair bit of trouble trying to figure out how to arrange the tube work back there!

This system ended up pretty nice. Better still is that I've now got a VERY nice place to put a custom fuel cell! Stay tuned.

Quickly I realized that I didn't like that placement of the hoops. So after a quick conversation with Tom, we decided to move the box forward, and then use some shock-towers like P3 had.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_148.jpg
This would allow a REAL strong coil-over mount that could be expanded to two shocks if needed.



Is it moving forward, or just outboard of the frame a bit with a thicker-than-normal frame plating job?

If moving forward, after redrilling the frame, the new holes will need sleeved and both sides of the frame should be plated.


The front tube worked ended up like this.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_149.jpg


Looks like there's still room to relocate the master cylinder (and booster) outboard towards the A-pillar a bit, so long as the booster doesn't hit the tube work (and the smaller double-diaphragm unit can be used to make it a more compact package)

As we'd emailed, it'll also help with the power-steering pump-to-master-cylinder clearance, too (even after going to the truck style pump to make a tighter package)


The forward section of frame will be stuck into the stock frame and welded in, then we'll plate that open area to keep things strong and clean.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_154.jpg


And the "higher" rear frame/bar that ties into the B-hoop will help triangulate this area into a big truss design, to reinforce everything. Gussets to that effect will help, too, to keep the rear backbone strong.


Next we had to jack the axle up to full stuff.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_160.jpg


The next most critical item to get mocked in place is the engine, transmission, and transfercase so we be positive of where "full stuff" really is.

For those following along at home..

The rear trailing arms (lower links) are around 37" OAL eye to eye. 22" to the first hole, 29" to the second shock mount (as you go to the rear).

With an expected rear driveshaft in the 40" range (like a stock SII typically has, keeping in mind we plan to move the engine back 12", but the wheelbase was stretched ~13" in the rear)..

Using a 30-deg angle we can get nearly 20" of vertical travel from "horizontal driveshaft" to "down at 30-deg"

For long life, we want to run less than 30 (that's about the MAX) and the last time I ran some numbers I was coming up with stuff like this:

We're using a 16x2.5" SAW remote-reservoir coil-over, so 16" of travel at the rear set of holes.

We can't get the shock to go 16" down and still keep a driveshaft in it (16" down from horizontal), so to make the most use of the shocks, we have to allow the pinion to come up ABOVE the rear output, at about a 5-deg slope.

The math then works out such that we can run a max droop of 27-28 deg, with 5-deg up travel, using ~16" of coil-over travel for 22" of axle (vertical wheel) travel, and the secondary shock mount (closer to the center of the chassis) would be ready for a 12" stroke shock (this could be another 2", or 2.5" shock, or a 2.5 or 3" triple-or-quad-bypass shock)

Which comes back to why it's so important to get the engine/trans/tcase in place, and verify that we're at a 5-deg up slope to the pinion at full-bump.

The reality is that that 5-deg of uptravel is probably going to be used very little, since it's likely that that area of travel will be where the 4" stroke air-bumps kick in, and hopefully we won't be needing all 4" of stroke most of the time.

For the numbers junkies, that was 22" of rear wheel travel if everything pans out like I think it should.


This will bring the truss just above level with the TOP of the rear tube work. If the stock frame was still there, the truss work done earlier would be interfering with the frame...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_161.jpg


And if it turns out this still isn't enough up-travel, we can always cut out the lower tube (now that it's all built into a big truss design) and add a bent hoop in it's place to let the axle come up a bit more.


http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_162.jpg


The vertical support you added should be a good starting point for the air-bump mounts, which ideally will be out as near to the drum backing flange as practical, to try and squeeze the most out of the suspension, without the need for a secondary bump system when articulated (if we ran the air-bumps straight-up-down under the "frame" we'd need traditional bump stops at the axle ends to deal with a twisted-up rear axle, but if we mount the air bumps at the ends, we serve both purposes, plus we get more uptravel before the air bumps need to kick in)

this will ship this week:D

this will ship this week:D
Now that's what I'm talking about! Great to hear SeaBass!

Is it moving forward, or just outboard of the frame a bit with a thicker-than-normal frame plating job?

If moving forward, after redrilling the frame, the new holes will need sleeved and both sides of the frame should be plated.
Actually, it'll probably go forward and out a bit till I get the clearance I need for the Borgeson. As for sleeving, normally I plate and use U-bolt nuts welded to the back of the sleeve for strength without a 'bolt-through' design..

Kinda like I did on Snoopy:
http://www.dandcextreme.com/images/extremeimages/bb/d34_h.jpg http://www.dandcextreme.com/images/extremeimages/bb/d34_i.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/images/extremeimages/bb/d34_j.jpg http://www.dandcextreme.com/images/extremeimages/bb/d34_m.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/images/extremeimages/bb/d34_l.jpg

Looks like there's still room to relocate the master cylinder (and booster) outboard towards the A-pillar a bit, so long as the booster doesn't hit the tube work (and the smaller double-diaphragm unit can be used to make it a more compact package)....it'll also help with the power-steering pump-to-master-cylinder clearance, too (even after going to the truck style pump to make a tighter package)
Get a Vanco Hydraboost system then there shouldn't be any problems!

And the "higher" rear frame/bar that ties into the B-hoop will help triangulate this area into a big truss design, to reinforce everything. Gussets to that effect will help, too, to keep the rear backbone strong.
Yes it will, I'm also going to sent a frame tie down to where we cut the back of the frame off as well.



The next most critical item to get mocked in place is the engine, transmission, and transfercase so we be positive of where "full stuff" really is.
Ya ya ya... I hear ya ;)

For the numbers junkies, that was 22" of rear wheel travel if everything pans out like I think it should.
Gee Tom, not too excited about that are ya. ;)



And if it turns out this still isn't enough up-travel, we can always cut out the lower tube (now that it's all built into a big truss design) and add a bent hoop in it's place to let the axle come up a bit more.
I really think that will not be nessesary. I mean, if it comes up any more, your fuel tank and rear bumper will become a built-in plow!



The vertical support you added should be a good starting point for the air-bump mounts, which ideally will be out as near to the drum backing flange as practical, to try and squeeze the most out of the suspension, without the need for a secondary bump system when articulated (if we ran the air-bumps straight-up-down under the "frame" we'd need traditional bump stops at the axle ends to deal with a twisted-up rear axle, but if we mount the air bumps at the ends, we serve both purposes, plus we get more uptravel before the air bumps need to kick in)
Are you suggesting that I build some 'outriggers' to put the air bumps near the drum brakes? Don't you think that's going to be a bit... far out? Honestly, I was going to put some horizontal plates on the truss as a landing pad for the bumps ~ maybe 4" outside of the current tube work.

Actually, it'll probably go forward and out a bit till I get the clearance I need for the Borgeson. As for sleeving, normally I plate and use U-bolt nuts welded to the back of the sleeve for strength without a 'bolt-through' design..


Nice trick! It's still advantageous to tie the two sides of the frame together. It helps distribute the steering load between BOTH sides of the rail, instead of concentrating the force on just the outer face.

Sort of along the same lines as why a Straight Steer is a good plan - transfers the load from one rail all the way to the other side.

I won't be running 44" Boggers on the Scout (well, maybe not), but at the same time, I've had the steering wheel jerked violently out of my hands when hitting a rock or rut at speed, or landing a jump at an angle and "out of shape"..


I really think that will not be nessesary. I mean, if it comes up any more, your fuel tank and rear bumper will become a built-in plow!


Maybe the back half needs bent upwards a bit then. ;)


Are you suggesting that I build some 'outriggers' to put the air bumps near the drum brakes? Don't you think that's going to be a bit... far out? Honestly, I was going to put some horizontal plates on the truss as a landing pad for the bumps ~ maybe 4" outside of the current tube work.

That is the suggestion, if it can be accommodated. The closer the air-bumps are to the shocks, the better off things are. We want the air bump to bottom out ever so slightly before the shock runs out of travel. The easiest way to ensure that is to put them as next to each other as we can.

It'll also mean the air-bumps will act with some anti-sway in them.

Often packaging dictates otherwise, of course, in which case we may still need an additional conventional bump stop out near the shock - or perhaps a on-the-shaft bump stop inside the coils.

Same idea with the limit straps, too - ideally the upper mounting tab is parallel to the upper shock eye, and the lower tab is next to the lower shock eye (though keeping the strap from getting pinched inside the coils).

---

Just brought to my attention that the upper coil over mount area of the rear will want diagonals going up to the top of the B-hoop for strength, too. I think that's part of the sketches you sent.

The closer the air-bumps are to the shocks, the better off things are. We want the air bump to bottom out ever so slightly before the shock runs out of travel. The easiest way to ensure that is to put them as next to each other as we can.So you want something like this?

Tell me if I'm getting you wrong ~ you just want the air bumps near the shock mounts right? If that's the case, I can build some sort of out-rigger ~ like the ones pictures above ~ to make the Air-bumps hit right where the lower links come into the axle.

You guys are having wayyyyy tooooo much fun looks real good, Almost makes me want to race again ::D

Tell me if I'm getting you wrong ~ you just want the air bumps near the shock mounts right? If that's the case, I can build some sort of out-rigger ~ like the ones pictures above ~ to make the Air-bumps hit right where the lower links come into the axle.

You have the general idea - get it out on an outrigger a bit.

Otherwise, imagine coming down at an angle, and the air bump bottoms out, and the axle continues to tilt/cantilever and the tire comes up more ... and you make the expensive coil-over shock the bump stop.

These are not too far off the side, but the axle isn't that wide, either.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/85yota/almost017.jpg

There should be enough flexibility in the back to get the bumps mounted off to the sides. Up front, they'll need to mount to the side of the frame more or less, but the coil overs won't be too far from there anyhow.

Have you ever looked at something after you did it, and thought ~ 'Hum, I think it'd be better this other way?' ~ well I had one of those moments...

So I cut off what I had built and started replacing it.

My main objection is that we had a front section, and a rear section. The two didn't transition very well ~ and I couldn't easily make the two fit. So...I took out the old and started the new.

The hardest thing was to make the top of the main hoop mesh with the tube frame ~ and with the tube work there, I just couldn't make anything fit, so the first bar I started with tied the two together.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_166.jpg

Next, while we were building cage kits, paul noticed how the front of our AtariBar setup fit nicely into the cage and would tie the lower main hoop to the rear kickers in such a way that they would be at the right place to tie into the shock mount
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_167.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_168.jpg

The thought WAS to create a triangle with a similar bar that would go straight forward, then turn down and pick up the frame, gusset, and be good.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_169.jpg

But Tom veto'd that plan and wanted to do something different ~ something with more straight peices ~ which are stronger. So I removed the outter bars, and started on the frame ties. Here's the first one mocked up.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_170.jpg

Looked good so I made the other side.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_171.jpg

From the back.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_172.jpg

Plans will be to tie the two sides together, then add diagnols.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_173.jpg

Plans for more tube work...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_174.jpg

Then lastly, plans for the actual shock mounts.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_175.jpg

I'm sure there will be more tube work going into it ~ but there's the general idea.

this will ship this week:D

How long before your web guy has your site back online?

After wrapping up and sending out the remainder of the cage kits. Did this

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_176.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_177.jpg

Looking good. Only problem is that the bender took a dump on me after 9 years of faithful service. Nothing a few hundred $$ can't fix though :eek: Lucky Tom wanted all straight gusset tubes. :D

Killer work guys :smokin:

Finishing off the back shock area was fun. Tom will be pleased that we haven't used a single bent piece all day....yet

Since he didn't comment on the drawn in marks other than 'you're heading in the right direction' or something like that, I took that as a green light to build it.....and weld it all in. So what you're about to see, is permenant, a bit overkill, yes. But cool all the same.

Finished up the "W" bracing the shock mounts with the main hoop.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_178.jpg

Started the rear X
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_179.jpg

Finished the rear X
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_180.jpg

From the back.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_181.jpg

This shot I found interesting, while cutting more tube for bracing something else, I looked up at the cage and saw this.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_184.jpg


Looking at the tube work from afar is fine, but when you get up close and personal, it starts to make you dizzy. In fact, I've found that its hard to follow a tube from start to finish without getting side-tracked or following another tube. Go ahead, give it a try.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_183.jpg

How many X's do you see?
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_182.jpg

In a conversation with the ever-quiet Rob ~ he said something to the effect that he wants to get Tom out of his current racer, and put him into something fresh ~ and safer. When I look at the bracing in this cage, I recall that conversation and think: Gotcha covered.

FYI ~ While all stuructureal tube is 2" x 1/8" wall DOM, the tube used to gusset is .095" HREW to save weight.

Next, we started building the fuel cell area. Luckily I had bent this tube up a few days ago ~ prior to the bender eating itself.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_185.jpg

The fuel area will hang 9-9.5" below the main frame bars and is of the normal .120 wall stuff. This is not enough to hang below the axle so it'll be safe, but there is a chance of it getting smacked on a rock or rocks. Therefore three of these bars will form a protective cage under the cell.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_186.jpg
A plate will form a nice floor above them, and Paul got permission to TIG a cell up at his CC welding class. I'm hoping we can make it out of aluminum!

Paul looking oh-so excited to be hole-sawing.....again...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_187.jpg

Little more progress...

Fuel cell area needed to be low ~ as low as we could make it, so we started with this. As you can see, the bars drop down directly after the rear axle ~ its pretty tight at full stuff but works.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_188.jpg

Should be strong enough to hold up the cell.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_189.jpg

Paul burned them in.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_190.jpg

You know the office doesn't have any leather chairs to match this comfy seat! So ergonomically(sp) correct!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_191.jpg

Last picture. Wish we had the freakin' bender working so we could finish up that back section :shaking:
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_192.jpg

There will be some tube gusseting on top of what you see, I can imagine a nice aluminum skidplate ~ with speed holes ~ there as well...

looks :smokin: when you guys gonna wrap this thing up and go race?:p

looks :smokin: when you guys gonna wrap this thing up and go race?:p


2nd that. D, do you think around the RMIHR it will be ready? Could kick some tail with it. :)

Well, I was supposed to start racing it in February/March of 2008... but it seems we missed that goal. ;)

Once Damian gets the engine/trans in place and the rest of the tube finished up, it has to come north for more work (and money).

It comes to Helena for me to finish out a lot more stuff, including building the 392 (or jerking the 304 out of the current racer if it comes to that), radiator / coolers, seats, gears (I have the 5.83 3rd for the rear 9", but the front needs done) driveshafts, and all of the other crap that it'll still need. Time and money factors into the rate at which that all happens.

Then it gets ferried back to Billings for the aluminum interior work and paint, new tires n' wheels, and other things.

Then, maybe, it'll be ready for a shakedown run.

I'm allowing myself to at least think that I'll be able to run it once this season in September or October, to give me ideas on what needs changed or improved over the winter before the Feb/March race.

Meanwhile my list of "other projects" hasn't shrunk, and among other things I need to get to work on my trailer so it'll better accommodate the longer racer (and towing the tent-tralier I bought behind it), should get the 33gal tank into the Travelette, and I STILL need to get the T'ette into the shop for a 4x4 swap and paint.. maybe it'll be *this* winter.. LOL.

looks :smokin: when you guys gonna wrap this thing up and go race?:p
I've been burning both ends trying to finish up my parts. Tom has plans for it when its done here. Prep'n this thing will take a bunch more after I'm finished, but hopefully we'll see Tom out testing stuff soon.

2nd that. D, do you think around the RMIHR it will be ready? Could kick some tail with it. :)
My part yes, Tom's plans, doubtful.

Well, I was supposed to start racing it in February/March of 2008... but it seems we missed that goal. ;)
Good, fast, cheap ~ pick two. ;) ~ Oh and "cheap" has already been picked.:grinpimp:

Once Damian gets the engine/trans in place and the rest of the tube finished up, it has to come north for more work (and money).
Speaking of which, its about time I do that isn't it. I think I've gone as far as I could at the moment.

Once the engine is in, I get to rebuild the firewall, tube the interior, seat bases and finish out the extremely little I have left in the back.

It comes to Helena for me to finish out a lot more stuff, including building the 392 (or jerking the 304 out of the current racer if it comes to that), radiator / coolers, seats, gears (I have the 5.83 3rd for the rear 9", but the front needs done) driveshafts, and all of the other crap that it'll still need. Time and money factors into the rate at which that all happens.
Speaking of radiators and/or coolers. I could use a radiator for mockup ~ unless you're going with a stock unit.

Then it gets ferried back to Billings for the aluminum interior work and paint, new tires n' wheels, and other things.
It'll be interesting to see how the interior pans out. Can't wait to see some aluminum take shape.

Then, maybe, it'll be ready for a shakedown run.
Or jump.

I'm allowing myself to at least think that I'll be able to run it once this season in September or October, to give me ideas on what needs changed or improved over the winter before the Feb/March race.
If not, you could always take it out and run it at a race track sometime in between season races. Give you some time to fine tune spring rates and preasures.

Meanwhile my list of "other projects" hasn't shrunk...Bummer.

Speaking of radiators and/or coolers. I could use a radiator for mockup ~ unless you're going with a stock unit.


There's been talk of an aluminum BBC unit or some such - Roy has some ideas I guess.

For my part, after the disaster the Ford aluminum unit was, I'm leaning towards a stock SII radiator.

I think the big-block unit in mind is wider than a stock radiator.

Maybe you build with a stock radiator in mind, located ~1" forward of the "stock" location relative to the crank (i.e. if the engine is back 12", the radiator is back 11" from where it started) - that'll leave enough room to change the belts without pulling the radiator (a problem with my current setup), but I can run stock radiator hoses.

BUT, try not to constrain the radiator - we have enough room, there can be a roll-cage hoop in front of the rad, so the rad mounts between the hoop and the engine.

That means I can fab different brackets off of the hoop to mount different radiators.

One of the best things with a wider unit might be to just weld some C-channel to the top of the frame rails and build a cradle mount for the bottom. Then some tabs off the radiator hoop to capture the top and we're good to go.


If not, you could always take it out and run it at a race track sometime in between season races. Give you some time to fine tune spring rates and preasures.


It's going to take a lot of time to fine tune spring rates and shock valving.

I might have a spot close to town I can go for some test n' tune. It's hard to find a place that'll let you do stuff like this, without being paranoid about liability.. and even then, I need to bring someone along to keep an eye on me, film how the suspension works, and to call for help if I get too stupid. ;)

The rest of the race tracks are all $75-$300 away and rising.. ;)

There's been talk of an aluminum BBC unit or some such - Roy has some ideas I guess.
No disrespect to Roy, but the aluminum rad he built for me last time (supposed to be a stock replacement) was....ahum...lacking. I won't dog it here, but will just say I was disappointed. VERY DISAPPOINTED!!
I think the big-block unit in mind is wider than a stock radiator.

My suggestion would be to get a good sized stock aluminum radiator from summit racing that functions like our Scouts ~ inlets in the right position and such ~ and then you can get relatively inexpensive replacements if it does fail.



For my part, after the disaster the Ford aluminum unit was, I'm leaning towards a stock SII radiator.
I can understand that, and that is easier on me ~ but I think an alum unit would be best.


One of the best things with a wider unit might be to just weld some C-channel to the top of the frame rails and build a cradle mount for the bottom. Then some tabs off the radiator hoop to capture the top and we're good to go.
You can also get a BIG alum and have a TIG guy weld shut the stock hose mounts and TIG some new ones on. When I did that for Rusty, it cost $60!


It's going to take a lot of time to fine tune spring rates and shock valving.

I might have a spot close to town I can go for some test n' tune. It's hard to find a place that'll let you do stuff like this, without being paranoid about liability.. and even then, I need to bring someone along to keep an eye on me, film how the suspension works, and to call for help if I get too stupid. ;)

Well, I think the rear half of the cage will hold if you do something too stupid. There's allot of metal pointing in all sorts of directions.

I was thinking, it would be cool if you used plexyglass for the firewall, from the seats you can literally see the rear suspension and I think it'd be super sweet if you cage-mount a video camera (w/ vibration control) and get a few minutes of jumps and turns seeing nothing but the rear suspension acting/reacting to the terrain. Saw something like that in a desert race video and was entranced by it. It was cool. :drool:

The rest of the race tracks are all $75-$300 away and rising.. ;)I hear that. :(


Speaking of which, and on a totally different subject ~ You can see in the pictures there are two jack stands possitioned at the rear link mounts. With the chassis exactly as it sits in that last picture, if I hang on the back frame (with all my 245#) I can get the front frame to come up off its stand (positioned at the front crossmember) ~ it comes back down but its oh-so slow. That's without the engine in obviously, but still, it think its :cool:

PUtting the swaybars inside teh frame means they won't have much leverage to do their job.

Speaking of sway-bars.. how's the mock-up going? Find any good spots where the bar can live and the arms will clear and the suspension links and coil-overs all fit yet? :D

Did the wiring harness n' panel arrive?

JEGS says the 32gallon RCI fuel cell is on the FedEx truck and should be on your doorstep today..

I hope to pick up the F150 hubs & rotors tonight, if not tomorrow and get 'em shipped off.

Speaking of sway-bars.. how's the mock-up going? Find any good spots where the bar can live and the arms will clear and the suspension links and coil-overs all fit yet? :D
:( The bar will be on top of the cell in back, hence, no cell, no mocky-mocky. But the plan is to use standard shock mounts on the back side of the axle, connect the drop-links to that, and mount the actual bar just above the cell somewhere. This will make sure the sway bar won't come close to the coil-overs or bump cans...which will arrive sometime soon I hear ;)

Did the wiring harness n' panel arrive?
:(

JEGS says the 32gallon RCI fuel cell is on the FedEx truck and should be on your doorstep today..
:cool:

I hope to pick up the F150 hubs & rotors tonight, if not tomorrow and get 'em shipped off.
:cool:

:( The bar will be on top of the cell in back, hence, no cell, no mocky-mocky. But the plan is to use standard shock mounts on the back side of the axle, connect the drop-links to that, and mount the actual bar just above the cell somewhere. This will make sure the sway bar won't come close to the coil-overs or bump cans...which will arrive sometime soon I hear ;)


Hmm..


http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/46782-2/41508b.jpg

The coil-overs are pretty close to the "frame" which makes putting the anti-sway bar arms between the coil-over and frame impossible.. how wide did Jeff say those IH Only North (http://www.ihonlynorth.com) bars come in? Doesn't seem like they'd be wide enough to go outboard of the coil-overs and mount the bar between the coil-over / link mount and backing plate (and keep the tires out of the setup when articulated). If that were the case, the bar could be mounted around the B-pillar area.

Which comes back to mounting it at the rear coming forward like you're planning. I'd suggest going BEHIND the cell if the arms are long enough, but that would put it right at the rear bumper and vulnerable. Bad idea, unless it's protected well enough by the bumper (anyone remember Jesse James' Monster Garage 1-week "Trophy Truck" build with one of Donahoe's chassis with the rear cantilever / mezzanine suspension setup.. worked fine until Herbst nerfed him and wasted a heim..)


Hrrmph.

this will ship this week:D
D'oh :(

Maybe it went USPS like the air-bump cans.. I had some Dana 60 shafts shipped up from Texas a while back.. "7 to 20 days".. they meant "20-21 business days" because they took all of the 20 days. ;)

Hmm..

The coil-overs are pretty close to the "frame" which makes putting the anti-sway bar arms between the coil-over and frame impossible
Maybe this will help.

Maybe this will help.

Yep. I was trying to get it to come from the front towards the rear..

But the pic gives me another idea - have you considered mounting the bar UNDER the fuel cell? It probably fouls up some of the rate characteristics, since I suspect the bar arms would be sitting at an angle at normal ride height and getting to a good angle at full bump.

It would keep the top of the fuel cell cleaner, and keep the 'bar weight lower.

No need to build up on the sides of the cell to support the anti-sway bar, either.

Speaking of the cell.. FedEx says they left it on your door step yesterday. :)

Sho did. Got to get some measurements and figure out some trick mounting. Also found the bump cans and 12-volt guys wiring panel hidden from me in our community mail box.

UPS says you got more goodies last night.. :D

Yupper. We've been working on the back tube work ~ a few pictures, but not much to share yet. Got the back half done ~ at least the paliminaries. We've been making a floor for the new cell and adjusting the tube work to fit the cells size. Should have that in today, then we'll open some boxes and see what the OOps man brought us.

Hey Jeff, Once we get the fuel cell in place, I'm going to start mocking up the sway bars. What should I use to do this? Will 1.25" bar work?

Hey Jeff, Once we get the fuel cell in place, I'm going to start mocking up the sway bars. What should I use to do this? Will 1.25" bar work?

Post 109 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8038892&postcount=109) and Post 110 (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8039123&postcount=110)

Yes and no. You will need 1 1/4" tube for mockup and probably have to sand down the ends a bit in order to fit them into the splined arms.

And my response was.. 1" tube (or 1.125) with some duct-tape!

Just a thought, while I was prepping Little Devil for the drag races this weekend..

When you install the various bolts on the chassis.. I realize it looks less appealing if you do so, but put the threaded end towards the outside of the chassis.

It makes it much easier to tell, at a glance, if a bolt is backing off.

Most of my bolts are all double nutted and red loctited, but it still doesn't hurt. :D

edit...
Most of my bolts are all double nutted and red loctited, but it still doesn't hurt. :D

Humm, we must have went to the same school of hard knocks:p

Humm, we must have went to the same school of hard knocks:p

In most of my racing, it isn't too bad to make a run, pit, and check every fastener (or the ones that quickly become Identified as problem areas) and re-torque between runs.

..but if I'm going to step things up and run bigger, longer events, I no longer have that luxury.

I should spend the time to learn how to safety wire correctly and just safety wire every darn thing - or start buying cotter-pin drilled bolts in bulk.

--------

Here are a couple of the few updates I've seen over the last month or so.. we're picking it up in July in whatever state it's in to get it up to Montana before it snows again..

Did I mention the 5.83 9" drop out was in hand?

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/46896-1/DCP_0358.JPG

Need to buy a 31sp full spool and a gasket set and re-set things up. It has a 28sp mini spool in it, and while I could throw a 31sp unit in, a full spool will be much stronger and they're cheap for a 9".

This was a mock-up shot of about where we think the IH Only North (http://www.ihonlynorth.com) anti-sway bar (rear) will be mounted.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/48672-2/60408b.jpg

Rear suspension at or about full bump, with the air-bump cans mounted.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/48678-2/60408f.jpg

Those are 16" Sway Away remote reservoirs, in a 2.5" diameter. Still needs the 3" extended lower eye installed and the coil-carrier equipment, which will take up some of the exposed shock shaft and put us at/near full bump.. with 16" of droop available, which translates to 20+" at the axle.

I believe the axle is "higher" than the frame would've been at full bump and the rear driveshaft should ultimately come UP in altitude.

Damian also sent one wide-angle shot.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/48690-2/60508d.jpg

Dale Durham sold me some old Kentrol 118" quarters - they lack the integral end-cap like the Howteron product, but maybe I'll get off my duff and make molds, since the Kentrol design is a much simpler part without the complicated end-cap. Might still need a 2-piece mold because of the curvature of the part and the lips on top/bottom, but much simpler.

I've made a little phone-tag with Jim Maulis Jr that I need to get back to (now that I can talk again, been laid up with a bad sore throat) about some of the engine work (head porting).

Tom- you might want to look into www.securitylocknut.com . I build vibrating heavy equipment for rock quarries etc and its the only hardware that hold up. www.actionconveyors.com

I'm sure the hardware isn't cheap but if you just buy it for the problem areas, it might not be bad.

Cool to see those glass 1/4's going to get some use, they came off one of my parts trucks 3-4 years ago and Dale was going to use them on his daughters traveler. The Kentrol ones are much better then the one piece Howertown panels, i have installed over 20 pairs of glass Scout 1/4's and the Kentrol ones take less time to mount and less work and time to finish. I believe Maulis has a guy in Denver do all his head work, the guy has a CNC set up for the IH heads. He builds alot of Fords and is in alot of the Mustang and ford mags not sure on the shops name though.

Ya, there is a couple little things, but that about covers it. The front end is back taken apart and getting prepped for axle placement and engine install. I'm going to have a little work-day on the racer with a couple of the RMB boys to stab the motor in, other than that we're finishing up the track bar & mounts, then the steering box. We'll need to get the engine in place before we mount the front shocks.

And yes, the rear axle should be at or higher at full stuff than a stock frame is normally.

This was a mock-up shot of about where we think the IH Only North (http://www.ihonlynorth.com) anti-sway bar (rear) will be mounted.
http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/48672-2/60408b.jpg
Yes, I don't like the swaybar going anywhere but down low. The problem is that we didn't expect such a big (dimensionally) gas tank. We may have covered this here, but ~ Paul, my helper, is a TIG welder and had permission to use the school's shop to build a custom cell that would fit in the lower area of the cage work. It would have held about 25ish gallons IIRC.

The only problem ~ it wouldn't meet racing requirements since it wouldn't have had a blatter. After some consideration to size, we ended up with this unit. To fit it as low as we could, we cut into some of the tube work and built a tray for it. As you can see ~ its a little higher than originally planned.

There is two ways to do this. We can simply weld the mount tube to the bottom of the chassis, or use a hole-saw and 'french' it into the lower fuel cell mount tubes. I'm definately not excited to do that, but it may give a cleaner look ~ besides not creating something that can get caught on high-points on the ground. But then again, it'll be above axle centerline, and this isn't a rock crawler....so....

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/48678-2/60408f.jpg
Those are 16" Sway Away remote reservoirs, in a 2.5" diameter. Still needs the 3" extended lower eye installed and the coil-carrier equipment, which will take up some of the exposed shock shaft and put us at/near full bump.. with 16" of droop available, which translates to 20+" at the axle.

Tom hasn't decided to run the shocks in the front or rear mount holes yet. At full stuff, both locations have the same distance between the axle mounts and the cage mounts ~ so quite literally Tom could go with a forward mounted C/O and then go with a longer shock in the rear to help with the dampening duties.
Damian also sent one wide-angle shot.
http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/48690-2/60508d.jpg

cell tray a little more visable.

Tom- you might want to look into www.securitylocknut.com . I build vibrating heavy equipment for rock quarries etc and its the only hardware that hold up. www.actionconveyors.com

I'm sure the hardware isn't cheap but if you just buy it for the problem areas, it might not be bad.

Thanks, Dan.

I've filled out their forms n' such and we'll see what they send back to me.

Looks like their fancy nuts work with standard bolts, too, so I won't even have to really change up my stocking methodology (if I have one).

Just need to standardize on some sizes and go from there if the pricing isn't too bad.

For now, I buy a lot of the "top-lock" nuts in 3/8" and 1/2" - and Red Loctite in the big jugs. :D

Alright, just got done with some foot work. As you can see, we're putting 3" extended lower shock mounts on the C/Os. This will give use some lower-coil-trap to lower-swing-arm clearance and why we built the extra length between the mounts.

That brings me to the rear mounts ~ obviously they are the same collapsed distance apart as the front mounts. Turns out that the 18" threaded shocks (or 18" bypass shocks for that matter) are exactly 2" longer than the 16" c/o are collapsed.

This means, that if the coil-overs are mounted in the front hole, you can put 18" shocks (bypass or just normal shocks) in the second hole for additional dampening in the future. Plus, when you consider that the shocks are mounted closer to the pivot point, there could be a nice gain in total rear wheel travel.

lookin good snoopy!

The only problem ~ it wouldn't meet racing requirements since it wouldn't have had a blatter.


I still need to add foam to the bladder, and all of the anti-roll vent hose routing n' such to be 100% legal.


Tom hasn't decided to run the shocks in the front or rear mount holes yet. At full stuff, both locations have the same distance between the axle mounts and the cage mounts ~ so quite literally Tom could go with a forward mounted C/O and then go with a longer shock in the rear to help with the dampening duties.


I haven't looked at my math figures yet, but I think the 16" c/o shocks go to the rear, and it was either 12" or 14" bypasses that could then go in the front (or another set of 2 or 2.5 non-bypass shocks just for extra damping).

I think the driveshaft is my problem, and putting the 16s in the forward holes (allowing an 18" bypass) would allow more down travel than the driveshaft (Hmmm.. Hi9?) would take, so it'd be sitting on the limit straps before the shock ran out anyhow. ;)

I think the driveshaft is my problem, and putting the 16s in the forward holes (allowing an 18" bypass) would allow more down travel than the driveshaft (Hmmm.. Hi9?) would take, so it'd be sitting on the limit straps before the shock ran out anyhow. ;)
I think it'd give the bypass more leverage as well. But my thoughts is get a better drive shaft! :p

Official updates.

Originally, the plan was to build the fuel cell into the rear area we created like so (gray shaded area). This would have held about 30+ gallons and we even got Pauls welding teacher to give us permission to TIG it with the schools machines.

But the problem is ~ as with any racing org ~ you normally need a dual wall cell. In SCORE and related org's that Tom races in, having a rigid cell with an internal blatter is required, so this idea of an ultra cool alum. TIG cell was out since we couldn't find a good enough universal blatter for it.

That said, Tom and I talked and decided on this 32-gallon RCI cell. It has a blatter..and therefore will work.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_193.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_194.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_195.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_196.jpg

Even got things labeled so even I can't screw it up! :laughing:
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_197.jpg

The cell is 18" x 25" and is 18" high. Massive yes, but it has capacity and even better ~ weight to the rear end.

With the fuel cell issue settled and delivered, we needed to 'modify' our rear chage plans to fit the new cell. To do this we wanted to build a shelf for the new cell. Sure this isn't required, but having two layers of steel between it and the fast-moving ground makes me a little more at ease. So Paul started one out of 14-gauge steel.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_198.jpg

The full lip will help keep things in place.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_199.jpg

Installed. These boxes are misc parts Tom sent to finish up the interior and front axle (will be covered later).
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_200.jpg

Cell installed on shelf.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_201.jpg
I don't have pictures of it, but to protect the cell from the ground, there is some more 2" tube that goes around the rear perimeter of the cell. This was do give plenty of support/protection.

Next we finished up some frame work. Before we didn't box in the stock frame to the tube work ~ so we took some plate and did just that.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_202.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_203.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_204.jpg
This helped keep the rear tube work and frame rigid. What's interesting is without a motor ~ the chassis is now perfectly balanced between the front and back. Seriously, if you sat on the fuel cell, the chassis would do a wheelie on the rear jackstands (under the rear links).

Although Tom covered it in his catch-up post ~ which I think was more of a cow-prod to me to post pictures than anything (ZAP!) :eek: ~ We had to decide between two mounting locations for the IHOnlyNorth sway bar kit. At first, I wanted to and planned to mount it above the fuel cell, but with the fuel cell change, so did the plans for it.

As seen in this picture...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_205.jpg
We could still mount the swaybar above the fuel cell. Paul is holding the arm so far above as if its in its compressed location ~ since the axle is also fully compressed. But that would mean the link between the sway bar and the axle would be way to long.

So we decided to put the mounts below the cell ~ in or around this location.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_206.jpg
Normally this is NOT the place for a swaybar ~ since it can get banged on every rock and small car you happen to be driving over. But with a racer, things changed a bit. Tom shouldn't be driving over small cars, and this is no rockcrawler. Since this location is still at axle hieght, chances of it getting hit by something will be slim.

After a brief conversation with Tom, the location of the sway bar was confirmed, and we built the mounts.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_207.jpg
The kit did not come with the proper mounting tube for these bushings ~ Probably because we are using a bigger size swaybar for the racer than a normal Scout would need (The racer will need a higher strength torsion bar for the extremely high speeds and cornering it will see). Jeff cautioned us to make sure that we use a tube that the bushings aren't 'too loose' ~ as that would cause some slop, and premature/repeated/often failure of the bushings. So we took the bushings to my metal supplier and started playing with dail-calipers and different size tube. Turns out that the bushing has a 1 5/8" diameter (which means the tube we select will need that same size I.D.). We decided on 2" x 3/16" wall DOM tube.

The bushings for the sway-bar were pressed into the mounting tube.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_208.jpg

Speaking of which. Here is the sway-bar kits Jeff sent us. A SPECIAL thanks to Jeff @ IHOnlyNorth for his support of this project. These kits are not cheap, and he's the only shop to support Tom's racer build with a full sponsership of his product. If you are having problems with too much body roll, give him a call at 916-652-4706 or stop by his website at: http://www.ihonlynorth.com. Jeff's swaybar kits will certainly help keep Tom's Scout sturdy around those high-speed turns.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_209.jpg

With that, here's the other side w/ bushing pressed in.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_210.jpg
Turns out that the DOM was just the ticket. The bushings needed to be tapped in with a rubber mallet and fit snug.

Jeff doesn't recommend trapping the sway bar's torsion bar in a tube as you see here.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_211.jpg
The reason is that as it twists it'll distort and a tube that 'traps' it can interfere with its natural distortion. However, I mounted the tube like shown to make sure both ends of the tube were true with each other. Now that its securely in place, the middle of the tube can be cut out...if Tom sees the need to do that.

Although I'll post more pictures of the actual installation of the swaybars later, I plan on mounting them to the axle with these shock tabs.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_213.jpg

It mounts to the axle tube as shown.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_214.jpg

This is not the way Jeff normally mounts the bottoms. The reason I'm doing it this way is that it'll provide a double-sheer on the bolt that'll hold them in. Although a single sheer will be fine for a normal scout, for the racer, I want to make sure we're covered...and then some.

The rod ends that were sent have studs pressed/screwed in them, so I'm going to ask Jeff to send me a part number ~ or just different ones without this stud.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_215.jpg

On the sway bar side, we'll mount them single sheer. The reason is that the steel arms are about 3/4" thick and so they are plenty strong enough to use the stud.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_216.jpg

Last picture in this post is a little unrelated to the swaybar setup. Here's the bottom of the fuel cell's tray. As you can see, there is 2" tube protecting it in case it has a run-in with a rock....or three.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_217.jpg
You can even see the sway bar mounts underneath the tube work.

Next is the rear bumps. Tom has found the air bumps work extremely so the call was made that they are also going onto the new racer. Bump cans are thinner metal 'cans' that wrap the bump stops (also called air bumps) and uses 'squish' to hold them. Here is one can and air bump.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_219.jpg

The air was then taken out of the bumpstop (being careful to make sure no air got INTO the bump), and with the axle at full compression, we mocked up the bumpstop where we'd want it.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_218.jpg
Note: the air bump is about 1/2-3/4" from full bump, the reason is that we will be welding on a 'landing pad' of sorth to the axle to give the bumpstop a nice level/flat pad to push against. Should make for longer life of the urethane ends. We also wanted the bump stops to mount at least as far out as the rear links. This will insure that if Tom lands on one tire, the axle can't compress on that side enough to bottom out the shocks.

With the bump stop's location set, we built a tube to come off the main tube and hole-sawed each end.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_220.jpg

Welding the bumps in. Pauls one happy guy.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_221.jpg

We also welded a support tube that gives upward bracing to the bumpstop. This is needed as this racer will see some REALLY strong hits, and we wanted to make sure the bumpstops are up to the task ahead of them.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_222.jpg
Tom, if there is any more bracing you want in the bump can mounts, please let me know.

Next is the upper shock mounts for the rear. We used 3/16" thick, 2" wide plate for these. Everything on the shock is in double sheer, and we used spacers to get the correct width. After everything is final, we'll add another plate making the mounts 3/8" thick where the bolts go through.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_226.jpg

Shocks mounted up.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_223.jpg

Currently the coil-over is int he back. The axle is still at full stuff/compression. As seen, there is 3" still left in the shock before full compression is reached. We have 3" extended lower mounts to take up this slack.

Here's an interesting thought.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_224.jpg
The distance from the shock's top mounting holes and the bottom mounting holes is the same when compressed. However, when fully drooped out, the rear hole is longer. This way Tom can use a by-pass shock ~ or just another coil-over shock in its place.

With the 16" coilover in the rear hole (as shown) ~ the rear will have over 20" of wheel travel ~ quite a bit of travel! A shorter shock can be used up front to help with dampening duties. However, my personal preference, is moving the 16" coil-0ver to the front hole and using an 18" 'helper shock' in back. This would give more travel as well as give the helper shock more advantage than it being in the front hole.

Although we still have some work to do on the shock mounts before they're complete, that wraps up the rear end of the racer. At least.... my part of it.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_225.jpg

Next big obstacle was to mount the motor. To do this, we needed one. Luckily the RMB group is a really nice and helpful group of guys. So with a call out on the email list, I had one old 304 and two guys at my disposal! ;)

The day started off with driving up to Monument/Palmer lake to pick up Jacob and his motor. This is his spare 304.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_227.jpg

We bolted a gutted out TF727 to it. This will allow us to make a good trans mount at the same time.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_228.jpg

Jeremy (another RMB guy) showed up and was ready to lend a hand...so he and Jacob started measureing the firewall to get a good place to start cutting!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_229.jpg

Here's Jeremy getting and double checking the center line.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_230.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_231.jpg

The motor/trans was then lifted into the engine area.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_232.jpg

As you can see, the front jack stand was lowered all the way to allow the motor to be lifted into place without lifting it to the moon!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_233.jpg

EWwww... old engine puke.:barf:
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_234.jpg

Obviously we want to keep the new racer as balanced as we can. Most of you know that IH made the Scout similar to all their other equipment ~ that means a big HEAVY powerplant. One guy (Mech here on POR) stated that 'IH' didn't stand for "International Harvester" ~ rather "ITS HEAVY" ~ and friends, that aint no lie.

And with physical size of a chevy big block 454 with a meger displacement of 304 ~ the IH motor tips the scale about about 750 pounds, which is a good few hundred over the nearest auto maker. However, with all that weight up front Scouts normally are pretty good climbers.

But racing? There are two philosophys. Some say that having a heavy front makes you fly straighter ~ like a dart, if you get the heavy front flying in the right direction, the back will follow. However, I've seen Tom lawn-dart his current racer at least once ~ With any luck, maybe Tom will post a link to the video that shows what I'm talking about. I think he'll admit to lawn-darting 2-3 times ~ and when I say lawn-dart ~ I MEAN those 5# childhood toys that you'd throw up in the air, and it'd come back down with a quick and abrupt stop, stuck into the ground (they don't make toys like the used to :shaking:). Picture that with a Scout. Tom throws it into the air....and....well, you'll have to see the video.

The other philosophy is having a more balanced rig ~ and is the generally accepted one. The new racer we hope to have this characteristic. We want this scout to fly a little straighter ~ land a little ... softer ~ and if at all possible, not be so prone to pulling a 'lawn dart' on the track.

So we marked the firewall and started cutting.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_235.jpg

Here's Jeremy starting the trans tunnel area.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_236.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_237.jpg

....and up the passenger side....
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_238.jpg

..mating the cut with the cuts I made with a cut-off wheel from inside the engine bay...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_239.jpg

Jacob taking care of the driver side...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_240.jpg

Why cut the poor trans tunnel out? Well to get the 'balance' in the racer, we want to move the engine back. How far back? About this far back.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_241.jpg

Gee did we move it at all? How about this angle.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_242.jpg

You know we moved it a TON when if you count the exhause ports...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_243.jpg
...it looks like we installed a BIG V6! Yup, that's a full 12" back from its stock location!

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_244.jpg

Yes, it isnt' recommended to move an engine back that far normally. I mean, now we have to relocate the gas pedal since the original spot...well, its gone. But we're confident Toms new racer will be a bit more stable at high speed, around corners, and flying through the air!...so its worth it.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_245.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_246.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_247.jpg

With the engine centered and the back trans output mostly centered, we started making adjustments to the pitch of the drivetrain. Normally, IH set 2-3 degrees down to help with rear driveshaft angles ~ I've got to confirm with Tom if he wants to keep that, but everything is tacked in with a degree and a half for good measure.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_248.jpg

With the engine mounts HEAVILY tacked in (more like a short weld than a tack) weight was completely put on the new mounts, and angles/measurements double checked for good 'measure'.

That wrapped up the RMB 'Help with the racer' work day. Here's the crew.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_249.jpg
Starting from the top ~ going clockwise. Jacob, Jeremy, myself at the bottom and of course, Paul with his signature pose on the left.

Official updates.

But the problem is ~ as with any racing org ~ you normally need a dual wall cell. In SCORE and related org's that Tom races in, having a rigid cell with an internal blatter is required, so this idea of an ultra cool alum. TIG cell was out since we couldn't find a good enough universal blatter for it.


I think I still need to get foam for the inside of the tank, too - but then there's also the remote filler, roll-over venting routing, blah blah.


Tom, if there is any more bracing you want in the bump can mounts, please let me know.


Y'know, they're probably just fine like that. The one thing I would've done a little differently would've been to tie the diagonal in a little higher up on the can, or at least in the actual corner, but it'll probably be just fine as-is. I've seen a lot of desert trucks with the air bump sorta hangin' out there and they hold up fine.. but there IS a lot of force in 'em.

I read somewhere that the last inch of compression is anywhere from 1200lbs/inch to 2400lbs/inch.

I guess, at this point, I might be inclined to just add some gussets to fill in the "V" of the can mount.

Picture that with a Scout. Tom throws it into the air....and....well, you'll have to see the video.

You must mean this video..
Lawn Dart (http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/racing/10_7_2000/tom_endo.128.mpg)

No, wait.. that's not it.. it's THIS one..

Full Race (http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/racing/8_25_2001/128/tom_obst.mpg)
Just the highlight (http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/racing/8_25_2001/128/tom_ouch.mpg)

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/racing/8_25_2001/pics37.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/racing/8_25_2001/pics43.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/racing/8_25_2001/pics31.jpg

There are others, of course. Last year I ran a run in Billings and I started the main race without rear shocks (ripped the mounts off during the heat). I was driving easy, but at one point thought I'd see what would happen if I "went big" over the big jump.. with no rear shocks, the rear end REALLY kicks when you launch it, and it tried hard to have the rear pass the front when I landed - and then bottomed out the rear suspension immediately, with no rear shocks.

Looks like you had a crew out there - thanks, guys! I haven't seen Jacob / SupremeBeholder in a few years.

Here's where my engine sits in the current chassis.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/1896-2/dcp_0001_004_001.jpg
http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/2229-2/dcp_0018_004.jpg

For those that haven't figured it out yet, the gas pedal will be re-installed, but shifted over, which means the brake pedal has to be moved over since the gas pedal is taking up it's spot.. which means it's a really good thing that I run an automatic in this Scout, since it'd be hard to cram a clutch pedal in there, too!

Then again, maybe we just mount an electric solenoid on the carb and the gas pedal becomes an on/off kinda thing. ;)

Looking at this picture
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_244.jpg

The big hole to the right of the new doghouse/tunnel area is where the steering column is supposed to be, with the other good sized hole being the brake master cylinder mount.

The brake pedal assembly and steering column supports are an integrated unit - but the brake pedal needs to move over (maybe a heat n' bend would do the job?) while the column probably *can't* move, since it'd end up putting my elbow outside the chassis when driving. I can adjust to using my left foot for the brake, right for gas (heck, I already do most of the time) but having the column offset (and we know the seat can't move over, it's a tight fit as it is) would really mess with things.

Might be that the brake pedal gets shifted over, and the column just gets mounted to the dash bar with a couple of tabs that replicate the stock setup.

Great build you guys have going on here, racing scouts thats something different, much better than most of the new stuff here on pirate, and better than reading the same (good) stuff over and over again.

Most of the big travel trucks use a 2 piece rear drive shaft. The first, short section is angled down about 10* to a carrier bearing, then the second shaft has the slip and CV. I guess by adding the first 10* drop it lets you get away with that much more travel out of the second one. I know you know this already but to help with your weight dist put as much stuff as you can around or behind that cell. Coolers(oil/trans, not coleman), batterys, etc...

Looks good so far. Long ways to go but I cant wait to see it finished:evil:

Most of the big travel trucks use a 2 piece rear drive shaft. The first, short section is angled down about 10* to a carrier bearing, then the second shaft has the slip and CV. I guess by adding the first 10* drop it lets you get away with that much more travel out of the second one.


The big desert trucks are all 2wd, too, of course, and I think their wheelbase (and driveshaft length) dictates a 2-piece shaft, along with how the rear suspension wants to pivot around a certain point.

I've heard a driveshaft shouldn't be over 6 or 7' without a carrier - the long tube tends to bow/bend at speed.

My rear shaft should be around 40" long, with the front coming in around 38" given that the rear links were moved back 12", and so was the engine, it should maintain close to stock Scout length in the back.

By cutting the frame, we can get the rear axle / rear shaft to come up past horizontal, which is how we'll pull ~20" without binding the driveshaft.

The still relatively short wheelbase (114 total?) and the 4x4 limits what we can do tho'.


I know you know this already but to help with your weight dist put as much stuff as you can around or behind that cell. Coolers(oil/trans, not coleman), batterys, etc...


My current plan is to put the engine radiator up front, roughly "stock" relative to the engine (so about 12" back from stock). It'll be pretty safe there and I can run stock rad hoses, etc.

The area that's boxed in in front of the rear axle, but behind the cab, where the coil-over mounts are roughly, I intend to use for the transmission cooler with a fan on it. The transmission will be sitting near there already, so why run trans line all the way forward? ;) Plus, the trans coolers will have fresh air instead of either having heat added by the engine, or adding heat to the engine radiator. Might still opt for a front cooler before I'm done, but the intention is one trans cooler behind the cab, one engine radiator in front.

Helmet pumper will mount above the trans cooler - hope to make sure it gets cool air into the pumper, instead of hot trans cooler air. ;)

Also planning a bulkhead behind the cab, so the trans cooler will need to be towards the rear a bit to make sure there's room enough for some air flow.


Reminds me.. on the rear link geometry / coil-over mounts.

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_224.jpg

You'll notice that, in addition to working out with a 14/16 or 16/18 combo, the shocks are both at or about 90-deg to the trailing arm at full bump.

This has the effect of giving the shocks a "rising rate" as you get closer to full-bump. At full droop the shock travel to wheel travel is less (1" of shock = 2" of axle perhaps) reducing the effectiveness of the shock, but as you get to full bump, the motion ratio approaches 1:1 so the shocks become more effective.

It's something of a poor-man's bypass arrangement, making the shocks a little position sensitive.

Yes, things are rolling along. Currently I have the front axle out and the knuckles are cut and prepped for turning. I've also started the front truss system (going on the bottom of the axle as Tom wanted) and then its all about putting everything back in and finishing up the front suspension junk. That reminds me that I need to install the D20 and build a trans crossmemeber.

Yes, things are rolling along. Currently I have the front axle out and the knuckles are cut and prepped for turning. I've also started the front truss system (going on the bottom of the axle as Tom wanted) and then its all about putting everything back in and finishing up the front suspension junk. That reminds me that I need to install the D20 and build a trans crossmemeber.


You should take it to the RMIHR and show it off. Looks like it will be a two tons of fun when done. :D

It should be at RMIHR in all of its not-yet-done splendor and glory. I will have the front suspension system in, engine cage finished, and interior mocked up. Everything else, such as wiring, the REAL racer engine/trans/t-case install, and finish work will be done in MT.

I keep forgetting I had another comment on the coil-over mounts..

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_224.jpg

As you may already know (but half of these discussions are for everyone else's benefit).. one of the trick ways to do the upper (and lower) coil-over mount is to drill the C/O hole oversize - say, 3/4".

Then use some .75 OD DOM with a .120 wall to get ~0.5" ID. Two short pieces per mount, slide it in from either side and then install the bolt and tighten things up (well, just slightly snug), center the shock up, and then burn the DOM into place.

Perfect spacers.

The SAW shocks should already have the misalignment inserts in the shock eyes, necking the 9/16" bolt hole down to 1/2", and giving a flat face for the DOM to sit against.

The other route is to turn the end of the DOM down into a "point" of sorts, and make the DOM part of the misalignment combination. Then you just need to be careful that the shock eye can come out from between the two sides.

With the misalignment spacers already in the shocks it widens the eye up a bit, so the bolt area is probably wider than the rest of the shock end already.

And, just to document things.. the shifters I have to pick from are ~4.5x9 or 4.5x10" in size.. so leave a clean spot of about that size for the shifter.

Well its time to upload the last week of work to the racer. I've got 150+ pictures to sort through so lets see how many actually make it to the build.

As noted before, RMIHR snuck up on me pretty quick. I figured I had another week then....what-do-ya know RMIHR is only two days away.

After a call to Tom, I hear Rob is coming down to pick the racer up...and I put everything else on hold and start doing nothing but the racer. Which is good since everything on the to-do list fought me to the end. :censored: But lets pick up this thread where it left off.

The engine was in...mounts in place and the trans was put on a jack stand to hold it till I got the crossmember made. Once a spare D20 t-case was located, we installed that to give us a good representation of where the crossmember needed to be.

Then a rachet strap held the trans/t-case up so we could get a good look from below.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_250.jpg

Please don't fall on me mister trans/t-case!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_251.jpg

With the jackstand out of the way, I find its most productive just to get underneath it all and take a look.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_252.jpg
Looking up at everything and being able to see where things actually are, takes alot of the guess work out of placement and such.

Luckily everything worked out so that a nice straight crossmember! First thing I bolted the RPT mount to the trans...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_253.jpg

Then used the plastic block Mike@IHO has made with his mounts as a guide to cut the holes in the crossmember.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_254.jpg
As you can see, I'm simply using some 2x3 box tube (3/16" wall) to make the crossmember.

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_255.jpg
The holes at the ends are sleeved with DOM w/ a 1/2" ID to keep them from crushing if tom uses an impact on them while tightening. The ends were also capped to keep dirt/debris out of the tube. The section in the middle was simply cut out and capped at each end to give support/strength. We also left the stock bends for rigidity immediately around the trans mount area.

Urethane bushings in place w/ steel sleeves that came with the mounts.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_256.jpg

Mocked up. Bottom side.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_257.jpg

Top side.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_258.jpg

Installing the mount was pretty quick. Just inserted the bolts and tightened them
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_259.jpg

any idea where one could get a bunch of just those bushings? Amazing build btw ;)

I need new body mounts for my scout, hoping to finally get to work on it some this weekend..

Installed it looked like this.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_260.jpg

But really, I needed to jack it up just a touch ~ to get the right pitch in the drivetrain...so it ended up like this.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_261.jpg

Then I realized that I had lowered it too much, so I swapped the trans-mount-mounts to the top, and welded them in.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_262.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_263.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_264.jpg

All done and sitting pretty.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_265.jpg

I also took the time to install the steering. Tom sent me the brackets for the wheel w/ brake pedal so lets cover that now shall we? After a quick run to Lowes for some hardware ~ tom hates sending hardware ~ the steering wheel was in.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_266.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_267.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_268.jpg

Then I realized that I had lowered it too much, so I swapped the trans-mount-mounts to the top, and welded them in.

All done and sitting pretty.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_265.jpg


So the entire crossmember/transmission are suspended on the bolts? FYI the stock setup strategically located one side in tension, one in compression with regard to the bolts, so when the motor is torquing over the bolts are not being stretched - just when backing up. I think it helps keep from elongating the bolts.


After a quick run to Lowes for some hardware ~ tom hates sending hardware ~ the steering wheel was in.


LOL. Personally, Tom hates dealing with 30 year old rusty hardware, so he has a shelf/rack full of bins of sorted nuts n' bolts. ;)

Then for kicks we put back on the stock trans cover to see where it'd have to end up to fit.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_269.jpg
Thats quite aways back fromt stock!

Looking at the pedals
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_270.jpg
As you can see, the brake pedal is right where the gas should be. As Tom mentioned before, we'll have to move that later...or, he will. (snicker snicker)

At first I thought I could simply weld in some extentions to the trans cover, but in reality...this is how far back it really was.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_271.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_272.jpg
That would make for a hard weld. Besides, Rob is supposed to be turning this racer over to a buddy for some aluminum interior work... I'm sure he'll come up with something far superior than what sheet metal would look like.

Next we got the front axle back in place. For reference, here you can see that the entire motor and drive pulleys is completely behind the axle. This will yeild one NICE balance to the rig!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_273.jpg

Then it was time to set pinion and caster. So with the pinion pointed at the t-case front output. We added caster.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_274.jpg

Then welded the beasty out of it.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_275.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_276.jpg

Then we treated the racer to some BTF bling! A bit on the expensive side, but it got the coil-overs up and out of the way ~ in a blingy-kinda way.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_277.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_278.jpg

So the entire crossmember/transmission are suspended on the bolts? FYI the stock setup strategically located one side in tension, one in compression with regard to the bolts, so when the motor is torquing over the bolts are not being stretched - just when backing up. I think it helps keep from elongating the bolts.
Yes. They are. And I do hear ya and I understand the concern. My initial plan was to put the mounts under ~ mind you it doesn't do much for your point on the stock setup ~ but with it that way even if the nuts came off the bolts, they couldn't escape out of the mounts very easy, then I realized that you'd be taking the racer apart from time to time and decided that this would facilitate that a bit.

Anyway, frankly these are 1/2" bolts I suspect you'll be swapping out for Grade8. I have little doubt that 4 1/2" bolts will suspend the trans crossmember even through the next few year of your racing career.



LOL. Personally, Tom hates dealing with 30 year old rusty hardware, so he has a shelf/rack full of bins of sorted nuts n' bolts. ;)
I thought Tom just hates hardware! ;)

Thanks~ The bushings I assume your referring to are the black ones on top of the crossmember. If that's the case, they are from IHOnly's trans mount and I'd contact Mike @ IHOnly.com (not Jeff @ IHOnlyNorth) to get ahold of some.any idea where one could get a bunch of just those bushings? Amazing build btw ;)

I need new body mounts for my scout, hoping to finally get to work on it some this weekend..

Now that the lower coilover mounts are made, it was time to make the top ones. For this I used 3/8" x 3" plate. With the Plasma and the use of a bench grinder, I roughed out the shape.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_279.jpg

I guess I should say I started with a cardboard template ~ then went back and forth from the rig to the benchgrinder till the mounts were perfect.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_280.jpg
What a pain. :sweatdrop:

At last, they fit nice and snug.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_281.jpg

After making sure they were in-line with the mounts on the axle, I burned them in.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_282.jpg

Then the lower mounts got burned in. ~ or at least the driver side.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_283.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_284.jpg

Mounts with fake shock in place.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_285.jpg

The passenger side was not so easy. Why? Because it needed the track bar mount. Normally I would have done this the same way I did Rusty, Evo, MB11, or any of the other XLC kits ~ but since this is a racer build ~ a racer build that will spend a GOOD amount of time in the air ~ I wanted to make the draglink and panhard/track bar as even in length and down angle as possible. This way bump steer is minimalized.

To make the track bar as long as possible. I bought one of these mounts from PolyPerformance. Its an expensive little bugger but it'll allow me to put the trackbar as far out on the axle tube as possible.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_288.jpg

However having the track bar out this far, brings up some obvious problems. First and foremost, interference with the steering. So to make sure we got it right, the Hysteer knuckles needed to be installed ~ along with the arms and everything we're going to use with the steering.

We got these knuckles sandblasted and painted. Got some dust on them....
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_286.jpg

And new ball joints. These are NOT standard Dana/Spicer ball joints. I get these instead of the Dana/Spicer units becuase they seem like they are much tighter/higher tolerance ball joints. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a Dana/Spicer joint only to have it waggin' around with little friction. Not to say that's bad ~ they were new afterall ~ but I like new parts feeling like they're new, not sloppy. Know what I mean?
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_287.jpg

To fit the new bracket around the coil-over tab, some trimming with the cut-off wheel needed to take place.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_293.jpg

Then we tacked it back onto the housing using the 'shock bar' method above.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_289.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_290.jpg

Once things were trimmed a bit, we put the lower trackbar mount in place.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_291.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_292.jpg
Sure enough it was too high and stuck to far forward for the steering NOT to hit.

So the trimming began. After a quick look, I decided an inch off it would do the trick. It wasn't easy cutting down that bracket, but after the cut we were MUCH closer to where we needed to be.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_294.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_295.jpg

Going through all these pictures and writing up the dialog, I have to say, this sure looks a ton easier when I'm posting the pictures than it the PIA it was when I was actually doing it!

Alright, alright...back to it.

Holding the chopped bracket up to the axle.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_296.jpg

Nice & clean. I was looking for little-to-no gaps ~ just even slits to fill with weld.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_297.jpg
Good stuff.

The back side needed numerous trims here and there to get the track bar mount as vertical as possible.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_298.jpg

Finally I could weld it in.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_299.jpg
Couldn't get all the way up that outer inside weld, but got enough.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_300.jpg
(This is the 300th picture on this post):happybday:

Along the bottom seam.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_301.jpg

Now for those of you who want to know how close the steering is to the axle-side trackbar mount.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_302.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_303.jpg
Pretty freakin' close. That releif PolyPerformance puts in their bracket was JUST enough.:hammer: I'm actually having my machinist make a new set of arms that will put the tie-rod below the hysteer arm, so we can run the draglink AND tierod off the arms. Putting the Tierod above the arm will cause it to hit the track-bar bolt!

After making sure they were in-line with the mounts on the axle, I burned them in.


FWIW, I no longer mount the eyes right above each other - I first have to eyeball the suspension, because often "at-rest" puts the axle at it's furthest-forward point, and I discover that at droop and at full stuff, the axle has moved rearward, or at least identify that "ride height" is somewhere along the curve of "all the way forward" and "all the way back" but isn't in the middle.

I then stagger the mounts slightly to compensate for the axle's swing as it articulates, to get the most motion out of the heim joints.

I've only started doing this after breaking a few expensive shock shafts when the heim joints ran out of travel. :eek:

Are we done yet? Not even close.

Next I'll mount the steering box. As with Snoopy, I needed to make sure that the steering box will be able to handle the bumps and jars of racing, jumping, crashing, and all that other stuff. To make the frame mount as BEEF as I could, I knew I'd have to do a couple things. ONE, plate the frame. This will spread out the load from the steering over a greater area. Second, connect the two frame sides together (to be covered later).

Onto step one. Like the Snoopy build, I plated the frame. Unlike the snoopy build, I took the opertunity to move the steering box forward and away from the frame (or off teh frame) 5"ish and 1" respectively. How did I do this? With some 1" x 4" cold-rolled bar steel!

First I made a mounting bolt template and drilled huge 5/8" holes into the bar stock. Then I enlarged the holes in the box to 9/16" and bolted it to the billet bar with some Grade8 FINE thread bolts and some U-bolt nuts (which are longer than normal nuts for more contact area/strength).
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_304.jpg
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_305.jpg

Once tight, I welded the nuts to the billet bar stock.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_306.jpg
This insures that the nuts don't shift a bit when they're welded.

Then I welded the plate to the frame (cutting the frame out where needed)
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_307.jpg

Box bolted back on.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_308.jpg
For those of you with good eyes, you'll notice that the bar is welded in numerouse passes. This allows a bigger weld area ~ considering we're welding 1" thick to 1/8" thick, its hard to get good penetration into BOTH peices of steel. Thats one reason I weld dissimallar thick peices in multiple passes. Love it, hate it... there ya go.

Moving right along. Upper track bar mount. The reason for mounting the box to the frame first was to get an adequate position of where the pitman arm would be and where they trackbar mount would need to be. Once that's done, here's what I normally use as an axle-side track bar mount ~ but we're going to use it on the frame side.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_309.jpg

After some measuring, I determined what height I'd need to match the pitman arm and drew some cut lines.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_310.jpg

Once cut, we checked its placement. AS you can see, I mounted the upper trackbar mount to at least two sides of the frame (the bottom and outside in this case). This puts more weld surface on the mount which makes it stronger. If I were to weld just to the bottom of the frame, it 'could' be strong enough to hold under extreme conditions, but why take the chance?
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_311.jpg

Here's a shot showing how the track bar mount is going to be the same 'height' as the pitman arm.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_312.jpg

Capped
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_313.jpg
Notice that I also made the track bar mount weld right up to the steering box mount. This allowed me to weld the two together with will further spread the trackbar 'forces' across the frame.

Tommy, shouldn't you be working ;)
FWIW, I no longer mount the eyes right above each other - I first have to eyeball the suspension, because often "at-rest" puts the axle at it's furthest-forward point, and I discover that at droop and at full stuff, the axle has moved rearward, or at least identify that "ride height" is somewhere along the curve of "all the way forward" and "all the way back" but isn't in the middle.

I then stagger the mounts slightly to compensate for the axle's swing as it articulates, to get the most motion out of the heim joints.

Actually, this shouldn't be a problem. With the link suspension~ particularly the long-arm link system you have, the axle should not travel forward to back as much as it might have in the past with RS and leafs. This is one of the benifets.

Also, the top shock mounts do mount behind the axle a bit. So they are staggered in a way, and they're also both. Honestly, you'll be safe.

Another 50+ pictures to go through....stay 'posted'

To make the frame mount as BEEF as I could, I knew I'd have to do a couple things. ONE, plate the frame. This will spread out the load from the steering over a greater area. Second, connect the two frame sides together (to be covered later).

Onto step one. Like the Snoopy build, I plated the frame. Unlike the snoopy build, I took the opertunity to move the steering box forward and away from the frame (or off teh frame) 5"ish and 1" respectively. How did I do this? With some 1" x 4" cold-rolled bar steel!

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_307.jpg



So what did you plate the frame with before you put the 1x4 cold rolled on? 4x1/4"? 4x1/8"? Or the compromise 3/16"?

Plating definitely helps distribute the forces of the steering box over a greater area - it's always been a big issue to keep the steering box mounted and the frame in one piece.

Add in the additional stress of the panhard bar mount right next to it, and the steering box area of the frame is exceptionally vulnerable to being ripped apart. :D

Back on the steering eh?

Tieing the driver frame rail to the passenger frame rail is an old trick that come companys sell kits for ~ they're called 'straight steer' braces. Normally I do not subcribe to their use, but in some cases, I believe they're nessesary. The reason for using one is if you plan on turning big tires in an off-road or high-torque setting ~ aka if you're going very slow or stopped.

What happens is that as you turn your wheel, the steering box forces the tires one way or another, turning them. And when you do this repeatedly, you could fatiage your frame quite a bit ~ causing the steering box itself to twist on the frame (which translates into sloppy steering) and when combined with other factors, could make your scout wander a little bit more than it already is.

On the racer, Tom will be repeatingly beating the piss out of the chassis. It'll get hammered often (ever seen Tom's current racer ~ its hammered). That's why we decided to tie the steering box mounts to the opposite side from the get-go. Now normally this isn't needed having mounted the box to a big freakin' thick plate ~ but because its for a race application, better safe than sorry.

As you guys probably noticed, the steering box is was mounted further forward than normal. This caused one of the bolt holes to pop out of the top of the frame. Normally this would be bad, but in this case, its good. Why? Because we're going to use some roll-bar tube to mount the box plate, and frame together to the opposite side. To do this we took some 2" tube, and started grinding on it.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_314.jpg

We basically cut off half of the tube so that it'll sit half on top of the frame, half on the inner frame wall. The cool thing is that a 3rd edge will be mounted directly to the mounting plate like so.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_315.jpg

Another view.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_316.jpg
A slight bend near the passenger frame rail was needed to hit the bar directly on the inner face of the frame. There, nice and gusseted!

While Paul was doing that, I was off the the hot-rod shop to get some Borgeson joints. Normally we stock these but having sold out earlier in the week, we didn't have any ~ and since Rob was just around the corner to pick this beast up...well it had to be done. I hate paying retail.

The first joint as slid on the steering column.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_317.jpg

Then the steering box joint was put in its place. I then held the two joints so that they pointed at each other so that I could get an accurate measurement for the Double-D shaft that goes between them.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_318.jpg

Once the measurement was made, I cut the Double-D shaft down and test fitted it.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_319.jpg

After a good fit was acheived, I made it permanent.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_320.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_321.jpg
You may notice that the Double-D shaft was welded on the steering column side. Truth be told, the shop I got the joints from didn't have the correct joints in stock, and since I didn't have the time to wait for them, I just got them and presto, they're there.

Next, I made a quick run to the junkyard again and got a pitman arm. Didn't have one of those...so...you do whatcha gotta do. Put it on and installed the X-duty Draglink.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_322.jpg

You can see how close the steering is to the trackbar mounts in this next picture.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_323.jpg

There ya go Tom. I kinda answered the question in the next post. The 1x4 bar was welded directly to the frame, nothing between it and the frame, I figured the 2" bar connecting the two would suffice, particularly since we got it tying multiple sides of the frame for support.

Here's a few more shots of the steering.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_324.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_325.jpg
uh....ah.....ohhhhh....

Okay, lets keep rolling along.

Next we started getting on the comfortable part of the build. I talked Tom into going with a set of Corbeau Ultra SS suspension seats.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_326.jpg

These are the seats I used in Rusty, as well as what I used in Snoopy for a back seats for my son. I got these from a local guy for a screamin' deal. I got the seats, with bases, and sliders for $300. Sold them to tom minus the bases and one slider for $250. Normally sold for $229 each + sliders. Needless to say, well worth the money.

Now Tom initially wondered why I wanted to use the Ultras. They are technically for a 36+" waist and such. But I'm a 34" waist and I know I'm much more comfortable in the Ultras than in a standard Baja. They're snug, but not too snug. The thing that hooked Tom (besides the price) is that the Ultras are a few inches taller than the normal Baja SS ~ this means that the headrest and harness holes are higher on the back and will support your head and not compress your spine in even of an accident.

Another nice thing about them is the zippered pocket in the back of the seat ~ gotta love some smooth storage.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_327.jpg

Mounting them isn't hard, they come with 4 tabs that point forward/back. under the steel tube inner frame. The 'suspension' part of the 'suspension seat' lies in those nylon cords you see zig-zagging across the bottom of the seat. These cords are actually military grade and suspend the occupant between the padded metal frame. So even though the seats will be rigidly bolted to the cage/chassis ~ the riders have some 'air' ride comfort. These type of seats are standard issue for most off-road racing circuits. I like them so much, I'm a Corbeau Dealer! Not just the suspension seats, but all their products from seats to bases to sliders to harnesses...to...well, you get the picture. Check Corbeau out at www.corbeau.com .

Anyway, lets get them mounted shall we?

After several years of doing this different ways, I've decided that my favorite way to integrate seats into the cage is by putting one bar across the back (to pick up the rear mounts) and then a forward bar with one bend to pick up the front mounts. Its time consuming, but it works and its strong.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_328.jpg

Here's another shot. These bars were put abnormally low to keep Tom and any passenger's wieght as low as possible.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_329.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_331.jpg

To pick up the tabs on the passenger seat, I simply welded two 3/16" x 2" plate across the two bars. I actually drilled and bolted these plates to the seats and then set them on the bars to get right spacing. Tack weldeded them in. Removed the seat, and then welded them up.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_330.jpg

Mounting the seats back in after everything is cool.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_332.jpg

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_333.jpg

There ya go Tom. I kinda answered the question in the next post. The 1x4 bar was welded directly to the frame, nothing between it and the frame, I figured the 2" bar connecting the two would suffice, particularly since we got it tying multiple sides of the frame for support.

Much better with the cross-bar/ crossmember in place.

I had some steering issues on my trail rig last week, so steering reinforcement / longevity is high on my mind. :)

If you hadn't put in that crossbar, I would've - particularly in this application, I think the "straight steer" is crucial with the panhard bar mount there, too.

Imagine dropping the Scout from 10' in the air. The panhard bar is going to cause the front axle to shift laterally as it moves through it's motion. The front suspension droops out the full 16" and is hanging by the limit straps, then the tires hit the ground, and the chassis follows quickly.

As the main weight of the Scout comes down, the panhard bar is going to shove the entire frame/body to the left (at least the first part, I didn't look to see whether the panhard is horizontal at ride height and goes the other way at full bump or not).

On the way up into the air, when the limit straps are taut, it's going to try pulling the panhard mount over to the passenger side.

Push, pull on that little spot of the frame, right next to the steering box that's doing the same.

Then consider a hard turn in rough terrain, with 3-4,000lbs of Scout leaning to the outside of the turn, wanting to slide the axles sideways, but the tires have enough traction (or hit something solid) to keep the axle from moving, so the whole chassis is pushing hard against the panhard.

Lots of reasons for that cross-member to tie the two sides of the frame together.

Speaking of the panhard - how does it look at full stuff? Everything clears? ;)

I think the radiator mount / radiator cage will also add to the strength in this area.

For those at home.. I want to mount the radiator in front of the engine, roughly "stock" relative to the crank (12" back from the front/stock location) and put at least one "X" in front of, or behind, the radiator to help protect it in a rollover, and to stiffen up the front frame.

Onto the driver side. The driver side was mounted on a slider to make it easy for Tom to get close to the wheel, then slide back for exiting. He's planning on a removeable steering wheel, but still. Every little bit helps.

The sliders, however require different mounts. They mount flat, which means instead of putting two bars verticle like the passenger side, we mounted them horizontal.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_334.jpg

Since they aren't as strong in this position, we used angle iron on the inner side, and then welded a verticle piece on the outer side.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_335.jpg

PLENTY strong. Oh, for tube, we used 1.5" HREW up front, and 1.75" DOM in back. Got beef?

Here's the slider handle stickin' out the front.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_336.jpg

Both seats in place.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_337.jpg

Now to finish up the odds-n-ends stuff. TEEDIOUS junk that keeps you busy for hours and hours. Does it ever end? Nope.

First thing to wrap up is the front coil-over towers mount to the frame. I wanted to keep the theme of mounting important structures to two sides of the frame rail to make sure they're sturdy. Well, in the front, to help clearance the Borgeson Steering Conversion with the coil-over towers, I possitioned the towers about 3/4" off the inside of the frame.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_338.jpg

To fill that gap, for lack of a better term ~ and to give an extremely sturdy mount, I grabbed 3 cage kit feet plate per side and cut them like so.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_339.jpg

The first one was 100% stock, a box plate and I used the bolt holes to rosette weld it to the inside of the frame.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_340.jpg

The other two plates, cut smaller than the inside one, then got stacked in place.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_341.jpg

Then the whole structure was welded together. This gave a adequate base to weld the coil-over tower too.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_342.jpg

Other side matched.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_343.jpg

Other odds and ends.

I didn't finish putting the sleaves into the lower arms before, so here's ya go.

I got some 3/4" OD x 1/2" ID DOM cut into small lengths to 'sleeve' the bolt holes for the lower shock mounts in back. This way the bolts will be supported over a longer distance than just the boat-arm material width.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_344.jpg

A 1.25" tube was cut to mimick the coil-over's dimension. This was placed centered in the arm to make sure the coil-overs will not touch the arm at any time.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_345.jpg

Both sides in.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_346.jpg

Welded up.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_347.jpg

On the top I had planned to do the same as the bottom, but ran out of time. After all, I Rob was going to come pick this up and any second. And I was already running behind. Luckily ~ or unluckily ~ he had some trouble with his T-ette than delayed him a few days. Still, not enough time to do these. Tom can finish that up when the racer is safe at home.

I did cut an angle out of the rear top mounts to help them look better.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_348.jpg

I also plated the inside, between the two upper shock mount plates for strength. I used a 2" hole saw to give a curve to the end nearest the shocks.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_349.jpg

The system with the fake shocks in place for transport.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_350.jpg

While we were at it, we added another bar to the dash area (below the steering column). We were going to build the center consule out of some 1" tube we aquired, but quickly realized that without the shifter, we didn't want to risk putting the consule at the wrong height....plus time was EXTREMELY short by this time.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_351.jpg

One of the many things that fought us during the last few days of the build was bad parts from ebay jerks. Tom bought these from a guy and had them sent directly to me.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_352.jpg
What was supposed to be small bearing GM spindles, ended up being LARGE bearing GM spindles. I called my machinist, and had the old-man come in to machine them to the right dimensions. Just one more thing!

Then, Tom accidently sent some Dana60 spindle lock nuts instead of Dana44 spindle lock nuts....They look a little big!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_353.jpg

A quick 100mile trip to Chris Kecks place and we had some used scout spindle lock nuts (which fit, mostly)... and we even got a free set of rollers for the racer along with them. Quite a bit of $$ in gas, but hey ~ free parts finally!

That got the front F1250 hubs in place for the rims...then we could roll it out the the garage...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_354.jpg

....But not before a quick lap!
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_355.jpg

Finally, the Racer moves out of the garage to await immediate pickup.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_356.jpg

....Coming into daylight....who'd have' thought!...
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_357.jpg

Parked....waiting....
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_358.jpg

Kids wonder why they can't see Rob? Too short?
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_359.jpg

Side picture before kicking the kids out.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_360.jpg

No Rob today, maybe next month. At least the thunderstorms are right on time.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_361.jpg
Nothing like bare metal and rain!

Well, the racer is mostly safe. I got 3 tarps on it making sure the rain stays away. Good news is that preceeding the chassis rolling out of the shop, we had rain every day. Since then, nothing. The scout gods smile yet again.

So if you're wondering why I didn't show up at the RMIHR this year, its because I was in a mad fury dealing with the racer. In all, over $400 in misc metal, few hundred in last-minute machining, $135 in gas, two trips to the junkyard, one to Chris's, and tons of trips to the hot rod shop, chasin parts here and there, missed paintball with a buddy who is now moved, missed the RMIHR, missed church (can you beleive it?) even shopped on Sunday! STRIKE ME DOWN!:eek:, missed a move I was supposed to be at, cancelled friday night's soft-ball game (sorry Bonnie!), and countless other odds and ends, but unless Tom convinces me otherwise, my part of the chassis is done.

Bad news is that Robs T-ette troubles required him to skip picking it up. So it sits in my front yard...waiting. It would have been nice to know ahead of time, but after getting the T-ette running, Rob went straight home to Billings MT from RMIHR. Thanks be to Gary Billings and wife Lori for giving him a place to stay, and a Scout to drive to get the parts he needed, but when all was said and done, the T-ette was still overheating when Rob and fam drove back to MT. The good news is that he's safe at home now and the T-ette is getting the repairs it needs.

The plan is to come get it more sooner than later ~ unless I can get a cool $6500 for the chassis from someone else.....





Any takers? :grinpimp: Come get it!! Its ready to go!






OH calm down Tom. :laughing: Sorry couldn't help it. :D :D Thats what you guys get for not being able to come get it!!! :laughing:

Tom should be updating this thread with ongoing pictures and details that finish up the build.

EDIT: 365 'official' pictures total thus far. :smokin:

Looks good Damian, to bad it didn't get picked up like planned

Thanks Chris, expecially for the rollers and those lock-nuts. Helped out.

Ya I was bummed when it didn't go away, but the reasons are understandable. I'd done the same thing ~ no need killing a fresh engine swap for something that can reasonably be done at a different time. It'll get picked up soon.

Damn that things starting to look good!

Thanks! I have to say that putting the seats in it did wonders for it becoming more than a bunch of tube. Before that, it was a project that was never done, after the seats went in, it turned it into a scout again ~ something more than tube and metal. Helped getting it finished.

I personally can't wait to see it done. Rob's got some aluminum guy to build the trans cover/hump, finish off the bed and bulkhead and some odds and ends. Then Toms going to get it. I hope it sees a full disassembly, paint, reassembly and kins soon. Then it'll looks awesome ~ right now its still kinda raw....if you know what I mean.

Thanks Chris, expecially for the rollers and those lock-nuts. Helped out.

Ya I was bummed when it didn't go away, but the reasons are understandable. I'd done the same thing ~ no need killing a fresh engine swap for something that can reasonably be done at a different time. It'll get picked up soon.

Watcha got planned for next Wednesday morning? August 6th?

Man D I wish you would quit playing on the internet and get to work.:D

Looking good man. Your work never ceases to amaze me..

BTW - did you pull Jacob's motor back out?

I have something a little more potent than an old stock 304 in mind for it..

Definitely nice to have a chance to eyeball it from a distance, out of the shop.

Still a bit Fugly with the small tires and no skins - but that'll change with Dale's quarters, some front fenders, some paint..

http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_360.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/2005LittleDevil05FinalRepairandPrep/img_2378.sized.jpg
http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/42378-1/img_3978.jpg

Damn Tom, the racer used to look pretty straight. I was under the impression that it was always a piece of crap:laughing: The new one looks nice and I think yall are keeping up a pretty good pace for scout people. Rock on.

Man D I wish you would quit playing on the internet and get to work.:DTell me about it. But after a week of building, and playing catchup, securing the new shop, and getting ready to move in, things have been quite hecktic and I had LOTS to upload. On the bright side, it kept me by the phone!:evil:

Looking good man. Your work never ceases to amaze me..
Thanks. Should be a good base for Tom to finish.

Watcha got planned for next Wednesday morning? August 6th?
Are you serious or just teasing again?:evil::p Hehehehe... Oh man, I had a sang in high school that went: "That's what they all say, then they never call!" But I think that would be pushing my luck.

If you come, I'll make time. We need to hash out some details, but that should be good. Are you coming down or is Rob? Both is perfered. Is it cheaper to send it up?

BTW - did you pull Jacob's motor back out?No, not planning too. Jacob wants his hoist chains back, but other than that, the motor is getting left right where it sits.

I have something a little more potent than an old stock 304 in mind for it.. Lets hope!

Definitely nice to have a chance to eyeball it from a distance, out of the shop.

Still a bit Fugly with the small tires and no skins - but that'll change with Dale's quarters, some front fenders, some paint..
Yes it is. Kinda a jungle gym of sorts and hard to tell what you're looking at in the picture. Some paint, skins, and interior work will do wonders in that department. But the base is there.

Damn Tom, the racer used to look pretty straight. I was under the impression that it was always a piece of crap:laughing:
It lasted that straight for how long?

The new one looks nice and I think yall are keeping up a pretty good pace for scout people. Rock on.
'For Scout people' ~ kinda has a 'bless your heart' ring eh?:p

Hey tom, what size tires are you going to? What width and rims?

Damn Tom, the racer used to look pretty straight. I was under the impression that it was always a piece of crap:laughing: The new one looks nice and I think yall are keeping up a pretty good pace for scout people. Rock on.

It's a shame the only show I've taken the "pretty" racer to is the Just IH show twice in CdA Idaho. Never has been back to RMIHR since I rebodied and painted it.

It was ugly when I started.. this is my buddy's old racer, that was the start of "Little Devil"

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/racer/orig/image9.jpg

and then this was Little Devil when I started..

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/racer/test_tire_fitment1/side_view.jpg

And at the begging of the week I built it in..

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/racer/heckweek_6_99/image6.jpg

That was 1999.

The nice picture above was from 2005 when I rebodied it after a roll-over. The next year, I pulled the body off and reworked 2/3 of the frame fixing cracks, tears, and other failure points before putting the body back on.

The "in action" picture is from March of 2008 after a few years of beating on the new body. :D

Since March I put new front springs in, and need to replace the rear springs in the next week or two before the next race.

That's the third set of front springs, but only the second set of rears since 1999.

Hey tom, what size tires are you going to? What width and rims?

At the moment, I want to push the tire shop for either 33x12.50 or 35x12.50-17s

I know I can get 35x12.50-17 take-off CORR race rubber cheap from another race team near by if I end up ponying up for tires down the road.

Sort of want 35s, but at the same time, more tire = more body work to the skins. That is why I had you push the front axle forward a touch, though - keep 35s out of the firewall.


Are you serious or just teasing again?:evil::p Hehehehe... Oh man, I had a sang in high school that went: "That's what they all say, then they never call!" But I think that would be pushing my luck.

If you come, I'll make time. We need to hash out some details, but that should be good. Are you coming down or is Rob? Both is perfered. Is it cheaper to send it up?


Cheaper to have it shipped up, but more expedient to come down and get it, since none of the other plans panned out, and here it is almost August 2008, and we're a year behind schedule and before I know it, it'll be winter again.

I have a race in Billings on 8/17, so 8/16 I'd be meeting with Dana about the interior and other finish work that needs done. 9/14 there's another race in Billings, so I'd be back through and theoretically could pick it up and haul it back home (either flat-tow Devil behind the GN, or pull the 16-er behind the GN if need be.. or talk a buddy into helping out).

After the plumbing, engine, and so on is all taken care of, it has to go back to Billings to the paint n' body shop, and so on.

Billings is $250 away for me and 4-5 hours. I try not to make it a habit to run over there too often.

In any case, right now, Robert is planning to take an employee and a service truck down to Colorado Springs on Tuesday and spend the night, swing by Wed morning and then steam for home. That's the plan as I know it right now.


It lasted that straight for how long?


With the paint and stickers? 2 days.

I then replaced the brand new quarter with another brand new quarter, repainted, re-decal'd, and took it to the JustIH show a week or two later and won my class.

Hasn't been "that" beat up since, just a slow, gradual deterioration from a little rubbin' here and a little bump there. Had the other quarter panel leaned over at a good list at one point, but porta-power'd it back straight enough. Had to add more stiffeners to the front clip to keep it from falling apart, etc.

At this point, I keep applying band aids as needed because it's always been "After this next race, the new car will be ready, so who cares!" which turns into "just one more" and "okay, maybe it'll hold up to another one" and so on. ;)

At the moment, I want to push the tire shop for either 33x12.50 or 35x12.50-17s

I know I can get 35x12.50-17 take-off CORR race rubber cheap from another race team near by if I end up ponying up for tires down the road.35s on 17s would be nice. Really nice.

Sort of want 35s, but at the same time, more tire = more body work to the skins.

and here it is almost August 2008, and we're a year behind schedule and before I know it, it'll be winter again.

Good, quick and Cheap. Tom, pick two.

I have to earn a living as well as pay the guy helping me work on it ~ and I did it without any personal compensation whatsoever ~ what did you expect!?! I got it done.

Good, quick and Cheap. Tom, pick two.

:shrug: Just stating the obvious - it IS a year later, and it WILL be winter soon - and if I can avoid towing on icy roads with the wind blowing, I prefer to do that.

Especially with a 2wd tow rig. Not fun. BTDT.

And I still have a truck load of money to (earn first, then) spend (along with time, of course) on the rest of this project. The sooner I get started, the sooner it gets done - so the sooner we pick it up, the sooner everything else happens. ;)

;)

Truck is in Montana now

Couldn't help myself.
http://www.dandcextreme.com/upload/racer/mb14_360.jpg

Plus
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/2005LittleDevil05FinalRepairandPrep/img_2378.sized.jpg
Equals:

I wasn't going to go into this, but since Rob brought it up in the open. Here we go. For this, I'll assume the possition that everything was my fault. All delays, cost over-runs everything. My fault. Got that everyone?

As noted when we started this build (see posts on page one). This build started as a chat, that came up with an idea, that led to the build. I would donate my time and suspension. Rob, would pay for expenses. Tom, will help the build with tech advise and would race the end result.

Initially we agreed on $3000. $2000 for suspension parts, and $1000 for tube work. $500 for overrun. Before we go any further, Rob only remembers the $2000. So when we met the budget I was working off of, we were WAY over what he was. Due to the fact it wasn't brought up, I kept going. Unfortunately, Because we did nothing in writting, neither one of us can prove either way whose right. For sake of arguement, I will take the blame for this mistake.

To accomplish this Rob had a chassis around the back of his house that we could use, as well as some coil-over-shocks. This was early-to-mid 2007. The goal was to throw a chassis together by RMIHR of the same year ~ or at least get one to Rob for finishing.

This did not happen. In fact, it was a year late, being ready for delivery RMIHR 2008.



Here are two invoices. The first is the actual one. It includes some extras and unexpected costs.

The second is the cost of the build minus the 'extras'

Milking of the money invoices....

This makes me giggle a little bit...

You should really stop trying so hard to make it appear that you are not the bad guy in all situations. Just a simple review of your "invoice" would tell me that I would not want to do business with you.

Consumables, and items such as fasteners, typically go into your "shop rate". They are items that are a necessity for you to operate a "shop". To charge labor, then consumables, and THEN gas on top of it to pick up your flowers, garden gnomes, and chicken shit for the garden at Lowes is not ethical.

Douche...

Our company charges $108.00 per hour to operate. When we quote a project, or a custom parts order that will require "shop time" we factor in our operating rate. That rate has the following items included in it:

1. Power for the lights.
2. Consumables such as hand cleaner, shop rags, solvents, grease, packaging supplies, etc.
3. Coffee for the employees.
4. Paper for the quotes and postage for the invoices.
5. General assembly hardware not excluding bolts, washers, Loctite, fittings.

Snoop,

I don't think showing an invoice is going to prove you are legit. Customer service is the name of the game, and it's something you earn, not prove. Considering I'm mechanically deficient, I've spent my fair share of cash on fabrication and rely on the expertise of the person I work with. Now if that person is not up front or takes my money and doesn't give me somthing in return in a reasonable amount of time, that person would never see another dime from me. As you know fabrication and specialized parts are not cheap, but 9 time out of 10, I would spend more with a person I know I can trust and stands behind his word. In a way you are lucky that you have chosen a business without a lot of competition and has a captive audience, so for now your lack of customer service hasn't been your downfall. But rest assured it will catch up with you. A word of advice, start focusing on the people that pay your bills, it just might help to restore your image.

Matt

Wow! On top of your insane shop rate you charged him $221.88 for misc. shop supplies!!! Then $300.00 for gas? Where did you drive? That Audi A4 in the drive way can go 2400 miles on that much fuel @ 3 bucks a gal. I know I have one :shaking:


I know this is not how we run our shop, so I have to say I think your in the wrong......sorry

I don't know you so I don't want to hate but you make it hard with things like this......

I could see charging for gas and supplies if the labor was free and you agreed they would cover cost (normally its included in the hourly rate). But i see a labor charge of $648, is that your labor or machine work?

Although misc metal etc... you really need to be very specific, i have ran into situations like this before and now everything that is purchased goes into the bill when its bought (detailed) it makes it much easier so you know here all the money went. Also, write up a qoute before you start with all the general things on it, i know its hard to be specific with custom fab but you can always come up with something pretty close, as things change call them up and send them a copy of the changes to make sure they agree. No problems in the end (most of the time).

Our company charges $108.00 per hour to operate. When we quote a project, or a custom parts order that will require "shop time" we factor in our operating rate. That rate has the following items included in it:

1. Power for the lights.
2. Consumables such as hand cleaner, shop rags, solvents, grease, packaging supplies, etc.
3. Coffee for the employees.
4. Paper for the quotes and postage for the invoices.
5. General assembly hardware not excluding bolts, washers, Loctite, fittings.

I dont include bolts and fittings in my shop rate, especially when i have dropped $200 plus on fittings alone for certain projects (high end turbo stuff). Everything else above though is included.

(Nevermind, i didnt see general assembly)

I could see charging for gas and supplies if the labor was free and you agreed they would cover cost (normally its included in the hourly rate). But i see a labor charge of $648, is that your labor or machine work?
Machine work needed. No charges for my or Pauls labor, even though he was on the clock all times you see him working.

Although misc metal etc... you really need to be very specific, More DOM when we ran out. Misc metal for gusseting the cage, trussing the axles, creating the steering box plate, and all that stuff.

I dont include bolts and fittings in my shop rate, especially when i have dropped $200 plus on fittings alone for certain projects (high end turbo stuff). Everything else above though is included.
Anyone who builds their own rigs knows how much a trip to Ace or HD can be for bolts.

Wow! On top of your insane shop rate you charged him $221.88 for misc. shop supplies!!!
Actually kept track of sawzall blades. Cut off wheels, gas and wire in the welder, tips, sanding, wire wheels, ect. Sorry if you don't agree, but that's what there was.

Then $300.00 for gas? Where did you drive? That Audi A4
Don't have an A4. But you really think the wife will let me go to the junkyard, South the Chris's for tires, North for a motor in the Audi? Common man.


I know this is not how we run our shop, so I have to say I think your in the wrong......sorry
Ya your right. I should have never done anything for free. Or on a handshake.

I don't know you so I don't want to hate but you make it hard with things like this......
Ya. Well... sorry. Why not go to a shop that doesn't do anything for anybody. Charges up the :eek:... oh, and buy a jeep before you do. Then you'll fit in.

Snoop,

I don't think showing an invoice is going to prove you are legit. Customer service is the name of the game,
Customer service is for customers. Rob and I were partners. Disfunctional partners, but partners all the same. I tried to accomidate him as much as I could. But you never here me complain about what he did wrong. Nope. Things happen, things happened. Do you really think that putting together a project like this was going to go smooth? Even if I was paid? Common man.

[/QUOTE]and it's something you earn, not prove. [/QUOTE]
Indeed.

Considering I'm mechanically deficient, I've spent my fair share of cash on fabrication and rely on the expertise of the person I work with. Now if that person is not up front or takes my money and doesn't give me somthing in return in a reasonable amount of time, that person would never see another dime from me. As you know fabrication and specialized parts are not cheap, but 9 time out of 10, I would spend more with a person I know I can trust and stands behind his word. In a way you are lucky that you have chosen a business without a lot of competition and has a captive audience, so for now your lack of customer service hasn't been your downfall. But rest assured it will catch up with you. A word of advice, start focusing on the people that pay your bills, it just might help to restore your image.

Matt
Matt, your right. You're really right. But you have to understand that this was not a paid-for thing. Nobody paid me to do anything. I believe that if you're fab guy was giving you a freebee, you would be smart enough not complain ~ on top of being able to see the problems that arose, take responsibility for what you caused (if anything) and forgive things that couldn't be avoided. Think of the scope of this project. It wasn't a bumper. It wasn't putting a motor in ~ or building a cage. It was building a complete chassis.

How long has the t-case install taken on Mech's Fat :eek: build? I'm not pointing fingers, but its an honest question. How long? Mech has a job, he can't put every last second into his build ~ and it takes as long as it takes. Nobody's calling him a thief ~ and wont. I think we should ~ I mean, he isn't charging himself. (that's a joke guys)
This makes me giggle a little bit...

You should really stop trying so hard to make it appear that you are not the bad guy in all situations. Just a simple review of your "invoice" would tell me that I would not want to do business with you.
I definately am the guy in the 'wrong' with GotIt. I'm not sur who he is, but if he's been waiting for bumpers as long as he has, then frankly ~ the shoe fits.

What makes me giggle is that guys are so happy to jump in with a 3-7 year old grudge and bang me for building this chassis for Tom. It cost what it cost and if you tried to build something to this scope, you'd honestly end up spending what I did. I worked to get people to donate things. I got a work-day organized to help. I did what I could. If you don't believe the numbers ~ it really doesn't matter. It cost what it cost.

What started out as a caged chassis w/ a custom suspension turned into something MUCH more. Sorry, its time to get over it. Do you really think the per-hour guy Rob is paying to finish up things really is going to do things cheaper?

Consumables, and items such as fasteners, typically go into your "shop rate". They are items that are a necessity for you to operate a "shop". To charge labor, then consumables, and THEN gas on top of it to pick up your flowers, garden gnomes, and chicken shit for the garden at Lowes is not ethical
I agree....sort of. "Shop fee" is normally 3% total cost. And I've never seen Dezuse fasteners included in an hourly rate ;)

Anyone who builds their own rigs knows how much a trip to Ace or HD can be for bolts.
Ya we all know

Actually kept track of sawzall blades. Cut off wheels, gas and wire in the welder, tips, sanding, wire wheels, ect. Sorry if you don't agree, but that's what there was.
All part of the SHOP RATE


Don't have an A4. But you really think the wife will let me go to the junkyard, South the Chris's for tires, North for a motor in the Audi? Common man.
A6 then sorry dick!
My 2002 F350 on 38's will go 900 miles on two tanks SO WHERE DID YOU GO AGAIN???

Ya. Well... sorry. Why not go to a shop that doesn't do anything for anybody. Charges up the :eek:... oh, and buy a jeep before you do. Then you'll fit in.
I dont get it? We do alot for people. I don't have a jeep...I fit in with hardcore wheelers not... er never mind you know who I am.



How long has the t-case install taken on Mech's Fat :eek: build? I'm not pointing fingers, but its an honest question. How long? Mech has a job, he can't put every last second into his build ~ and it takes as long as it takes. Nobody's calling him a thief ~ and wont. I think we should ~ I mean, he isn't charging himself. (that's a joke guys)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt that his OWN PERSONAL RIG? Who the fuck cares how he works on his OWN RIG AFTER HIS 9-5 :mad3:???

.
3. Coffee for the employees.


So I've read all this thread and all the bashing in the other thread and this one items has me all hung up! You mean your employees get coffee? Freakin' awesome!

Can't we all just get along? And have a cup of free freakin' coffee at HOS's workplace!!!

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/rodney-king.jpg

Damien listen to HOS and others to get your business stuff in order for next time and take this black eye as a well earned lesson.

Bringing up somebody's private build for any kind of arguement is gay.

I havent attacked you or jumped on any bandwagon since I have never done business with you. However you really sound like a butthurt child right now, so man up with a quickness.

You have done wrong to some people here and be in 6 months or 6 years later they have every right to call you out until you and them make ammends.

I would have been pleased with the price tag of this build, and pissed at the time frame. However looking at those poorly done invoices I would have disputed almost 1/3 of the charges. Any misc. charge better have an explination by it or you can consider it a freeby.

Too many vendors dont care about the customer's time anymore. I have missed runs, had to buy airfare instead of drive, etc. since some dumbshit vendor cannot do what I paid him to do. We pay others some times to do what we don't have the time to do. If at the end I get that thing in the same timeframe I could have done it or later...I'm pissed and you owe me!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt that his OWN PERSONAL RIG? Who the fuck cares how he works on his OWN RIG AFTER HIS 9-5 :mad3:???
And I built this chassis after I made a living too. Holy crap man ~ I said it was a joke, you know A JOKE! Read the reply man, I was being sarcastic. :shaking: People say I'm taking myself too seriously.

Anyway. Get things in writing, don't do anything for free, so that any shop supplies used are included in your labor and you don't need to put in another line item. Ya, I get it.

Spoke to Tom today, and am bringing this to the top so I can see what I paid D&C for. Tom has had the chassis sand blasted and now has it in his shop, I am curious to see the craftsmanship and what will be involved in bringing this chassis up to a standard that will pass Tech inspection.

Spoke to Tom today, and am bringing this to the top so I can see what I paid D&C for. Tom has had the chassis sand blasted and now has it in his shop, I am curious to see the craftsmanship and what will be involved in bringing this chassis up to a standard that will pass Tech inspection.

I actually saw this chassi in person. It is a far cry from the 'modern' KoH inspired racers, but shouldn't be too hard to get teched. Interested in seeing what Tom does with this thing...

Dan ~ this is NOT a KOH rig ~ not in the slightest. Its too long, too heavy, not enough ground clearance ~ not to mention several other things. Had it been a KOH rig, the design would have been SO much different it wouldn't even be funny. This build was completed over 3 years ago, and started 4-5 years ago. This is no KOH rig.

Think about it; Where was KOH then? 4-5 years ago KOH was simply an idea, barely carried out. As KOH became popular, and as RockRace events replaced RockCrawl events, there was a huge evolution to the 'modern' buggies see today. Look back on this thread ~ The simple fact that we trussed the BOTTOM of the axles is a key to understanding that this is not a KOH-bred rig. Nor is it a crawler ~ it was built for jumps at high speeds. Not crawling, not even to see a rock over the size of your foot! So to compare it to them, is kind of rediculous. There is no comparison.



Had it been, I would have shortened it rather than lengthened it, I would have stretched the wheelbase as far as the frame would let me ~ not build it to keep stock sheet metal. Narrowed it, used smaller tubing, WAY different link designs. More belly clearance, while retaining its hieght, as well as several other things that I won't even touch on here. This is a 'tough-truck' style racer. Desert or dirt-track. NO rocks, NO drop-offs (unless its flying over them) and all that.

Look back on this thread ~ The simple fact that we trussed the BOTTOM of the axles is a key to understanding that this is not a KOH-bred rig. Nor is it a crawler ~ it was built for jumps at high speeds. Not crawling, not even to see a rock over the size of your foot! So to compare it to them, is kind of rediculous. There is no comparison.


Yep, not a KOH type rig. That would involve too many go-slow compromises.

The rear axle is trussed under the axle, but the front still needs trussed - and I'm still thinking of going under, if for no other reason, than there isn't room on top.

As to the other ground clearance, the trailing arms sit low enough, with the "roller" tires, that my push broom clears, but I have to hold it pretty flat. :)


Had it been, I would have shortened it rather than lengthened it, I would have stretched the wheelbase as far as the frame would let me ~ not build it to keep stock sheet metal. Narrowed it, used smaller tubing, WAY different link designs. More belly clearance, while retaining its hieght, as well as several other things that I won't even touch on here. This is a 'tough-truck' style racer. Desert or dirt-track. NO rocks, NO drop-offs (unless its flying over them) and all that.

Even the 114" WB it's at is shorter than Pro2 trucks, and I think it'd still be plenty short enough for just about anything.

You may recall the suspension is limited by the driveshafts, and moving the engine back and then lengthening the wheel base helped get it to where the front and rear shafts are nearly the same length (IIRC they should be 2" off) and the driveshafts are capable of 16" of travel from horizontal, thanks to being that long. The rear should yield more travel only because you cut the frame so it can come up above "flat."

Now, on to the sand blast..

Last week.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/95803-2/2011-04-10_13-11-43_919.jpg
http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/95816-2/2011-04-10_13-12-11_380.jpg

And this afternoon and $350 later.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/96968-1/IMG_8267.JPG

All of the pictures (http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/index.php?q=gallery&g2_itemId=95800&g2_highlightId=96975)

I'm still going through all of the pictures I took. :)

The IH welders did a poor job on the frame seam and it needs gone back over.

There are numerous spots where a bracket or tab was removed and some of the parent metal was damaged - it really shows up nicely after blasting. I will need to weld up the low spots and grind it back down.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/96995-1/IMG_8276.JPG

One on the front is worse and appears to be weeping a little.

There were a few spots where either it was too difficult to get to, or someone just forgot to come back to it, but welds were missing.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/96983-1/IMG_8272.JPG

Other spots where the blasting reveals everything is just fine.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/97031-1/IMG_8288.JPG

A lot of white metal.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/97146-2/IMG_8326.JPG

Who blasted it Tom?

Who blasted it Tom?

Doug Abelin. I know him through CTVRA, the motorbike and ATV club. He's portable, if you need him to be, but you can see the pile of sand he has in his field - and I'd rather it be in his field than mine. Fortunately, he lives about 1/4 mile from me, so after I flat-towed across my field, I snuck down the dirt road to Tyler's house, made a left, and went about as far up the far side of Applegate as Tyler is on the near side, and there I was.

It was close enough that I didn't destroy a rear tire - one of the links fell out (no bolt) when I was doing a suspension test last fall, and I had just wired it up - well, the first good turn sent the linked rear end walking sideways until the tire's inner sidewall hit the air bump can and stopped it.

Thus, the ratchet strap on the return trip to keep the axle somewhat centered long enough to get home.

$95/hr.

Tom, clean out your PM box...

Tom, clean out your PM box...

Done. Lance keeps sending me these weekly announcements about PirateTV and such... :rolleyes:

Definately time for a new thread...

Definately time for a new thread...

x10.

Done. Lance keeps sending me these weekly announcements about PirateTV and such... :rolleyes:

Ya we are paying for the PM SPAM :mad3:

Doesn't need a new thread, just all the crap about a page or two cut out.

I'm going to acknowledge a few things that may piss a couple people off. May not. I guess we'll see ~ but its not my intention, and I hope you can see what I'm saying, rather than focus on what I'm not.

You know Tom, I can't tell you how pleased I am that you're doing something with that chassis. I don't think you know how many hours I put into building it. I didn't charge for any of my time ~ or even the time my paid employees put into it ~ rather, I really tried to hand you something you could use.

Now, I know there were hard feelings about how long it took me to build it (about a year ~ RMIHR 07 to RMIHR 08) ~ and I acquired a new enemy for it. Then after all that stuff about how long it took me, I couldn't help but laugh when it was left to sit for the last 3 years rusting in a field ~ all the while I caught and keep catching flack from my new 'buddy'.

But I have to say, that I'm quite pleased that you're doing something with it. I have literally hundreds of hours into it. The project was quite an undertaking on many different fronts. It was truly a pain in my butt, I've stewed over ill feelings of the participants of this build. And I've come to the conclusion that I'll never do anything like this again. While it promised to be a great opportunity at its inception, all added up, its only caused me grief. Had I the foresight to see how it was going to end up (the whole rob-n-I thing), I probably wouldn't have done it.

But I'm honestly, glad I didn't have that foresight. I'm glad I was able to help a little. I hope that you put the chassis to use sometime. You're a good man. I only hope that I was able to help, in some small way. I sincerely wish you good luck with the remainder of the build. There were so many things done that were a first for me. Moving the motor back to get better weight and balance ~ I'm excited to see how that works out. There are so many positives that this build brings that I have decided to put my differences with the other guy aside, and simply look forward with hopeful anticipation.

Truly, good luck.

Now for some mistakes. Am I correct understanding there was 2 welds missed? They both seem to be the ones at the end of the stock frame going up to the shock hoops. Is that correct? I'm sorry I missed a couple welds near the old floor support. I'm sure that wasn't on purpose, rather we we simply skipped them for later ~ then missed them trying to wrap it up so quickly. For that I'm sorry. I really tried to get all the welds the best I could. But as you look over all the welds, I'm sure you realize there were quite a few of them, and I thought I was under a deadline for towing it back.

Regardless, if there are mistakes, forgive me. The chassis was FAR from perfect, nor was it meant to be a 'finished' product when my phase was done. I truly wish you well on its completion. I look forward to seeing it finished, and seeing you race the piss out of it.

Its time for bed for me,
Damian

I really tried to get all the welds the best I could.

:laughing:

If any of the welders at my work EVER said this to a customer? Gone. I understand there is a lot of tube, and a lot of joints. But I have also seen how Tom drives, let's just say 'aggressively'.

Putting 100's of hours into a project is great - if they are quality hours. Looks like this one needed 100's + 15 mins.

But thanks for the new sig line!

'Aggressively' ~ :laughing:

Sig Line ~ now that's hilarious ~ and you're right, it is a good one ~ looking at it like that.

Poke and nit-pick all you want. It really doesn't matter to me. I did everything I could to help someone I consider a respectable and deserving guy. Both Rob and I did. When I look back on it, I sometimes wish I didn't, but I'm glad I did. I'm certainly not going to do it again. At the end of the day, TOM is the guy I was hoping to help, and despite your ridicule I think he was helped.

I've already agreed to withdraw any claims/rights to sponsorship 'stickers' or markings if Tom could keep Rob quiet on the forums. I think ya'll know that didn't work ~ I mean, look at the post that brought this thread back up! It was Rob, being his normal sarcastic self about 'seeing what he paid for' ~ too funny. If his before comments weren't enough, now I have rights to put my stickers all over this rig. But I won't. I forsook this rig even before it was picked up 3ish years ago. I'm sure Tom has the email or conversation still in his mind.

I simply leave it to Tom. I believe HE is a man of his word. I believe he'll give credit when credit is due. I could care less if he boldly proclaims "D&C did the suspension and tube work'. Heck! if he said 'Damian helped with the suspension and tube work' ~ I'd be happy. If he doesn't, well sad as it is, it makes little difference to me (And you'll all see why soon enough)

I've got 3 pre-teens ~ actually in a week I'll have 2 pre-teens and 1 teenager, and I'm all to familiar with ingratitude. And though it pisses me off, I'm big enough (have you seen my tummy) to let it go and realize I did what I could to help. It never was supposed to be a end-all fix or 'completed rig' ~ I was there to help, and the help was accepted. Take it or leave it. In this thread, there are no customers, just some good-old-fashion one guy trying to help another. Weather or not fame and fortune comes of it, makes little difference in the grand scheme of things.

So to Tom, I'm glad I took the opportunity to help. I hope it was a help to you. If not; I'm sorry. As said, I did what I could, as well as I could. I sincerely wish you the best in your racing.

To Rob(ert) ~ And I'm being Serious; Your the nicest guy ~ I wish I never met. And by that I mean, ask anyone ~ you're a great guy. You showed me hospitality when I was up there. Fed me, housed me, you even flew me up and back with your ninja discounts with the airlines. I REALLY appreciate you helping me help Tom. I also appreciate the time and money it took to facilitate me while I was up there. You did that without a hint of complaint or of my asking. Its just the kind of guy you are. Look at this rig guys. NONE of it could have happened without Robert. HE paid for the parts, materials, and gas to drive all over Timbuktu to get it together. We went from Colorado Springs to DURANGO to pick up the chassis. We drove all over the front range for the motor and various little parts that went into this. I drove north of denver where I got the seats. ALL OF THIS was because ROBERT had our backs. He deserves much more credit for this build than I think most of you realize. Back to my point: Unfortunately things happened between us that turned us into 'enemies' ~ and that's the only reason why I wish I never 'met' you. Had I not, I would simply think your a great guy by your posts, and wouldn't think anything else. Regardless of what happened, I'm still glad we got together for Tom' sake. And I'm still pulling for him to bring home some 'golds' ~ as I'm sure, are you.

Fair enough. I said my peace.

Warmest regards and all that crap.
D

I'm going to acknowledge a few things that may piss a couple people off. May not. I guess we'll see ~ but its not my intention, and I hope you can see what I'm saying, rather than focus on what I'm not.

You know Tom, I can't tell you how pleased I am that you're doing something with that chassis. I don't think you know how many hours I put into building it. I didn't charge for any of my time ~ or even the time my paid employees put into it ~ rather, I really tried to hand you something you could use.

Now, I know there were hard feelings about how long it took me to build it (about a year ~ RMIHR 07 to RMIHR 08) ~ and I acquired a new enemy for it. Then after all that stuff about how long it took me, I couldn't help but laugh when it was left to sit for the last 3 years rusting in a field ~ all the while I caught and keep catching flack from my new 'buddy'.

But I have to say, that I'm quite pleased that you're doing something with it. I have literally hundreds of hours into it. The project was quite an undertaking on many different fronts. It was truly a pain in my butt, I've stewed over ill feelings of the participants of this build. And I've come to the conclusion that I'll never do anything like this again. While it promised to be a great opportunity at its inception, all added up, its only caused me grief. Had I the foresight to see how it was going to end up (the whole rob-n-I thing), I probably wouldn't have done it.

But I'm honestly, glad I didn't have that foresight. I'm glad I was able to help a little. I hope that you put the chassis to use sometime. You're a good man. I only hope that I was able to help, in some small way. I sincerely wish you good luck with the remainder of the build. There were so many things done that were a first for me. Moving the motor back to get better weight and balance ~ I'm excited to see how that works out. There are so many positives that this build brings that I have decided to put my differences with the other guy aside, and simply look forward with hopeful anticipation.

Truly, good luck.

Now for some mistakes. Am I correct understanding there was 2 welds missed? They both seem to be the ones at the end of the stock frame going up to the shock hoops. Is that correct? I'm sorry I missed a couple welds near the old floor support. I'm sure that wasn't on purpose, rather we we simply skipped them for later ~ then missed them trying to wrap it up so quickly. For that I'm sorry. I really tried to get all the welds the best I could. But as you look over all the welds, I'm sure you realize there were quite a few of them, and I thought I was under a deadline for towing it back.

Regardless, if there are mistakes, forgive me. The chassis was FAR from perfect, nor was it meant to be a 'finished' product when my phase was done. I truly wish you well on its completion. I look forward to seeing it finished, and seeing you race the piss out of it.

Its time for bed for me,
Damian

'Aggressively' ~ :laughing:

Sig Line ~ now that's hilarious ~ and you're right, it is a good one ~ looking at it like that.

Poke and nit-pick all you want. It really doesn't matter to me. I did everything I could to help someone I consider a respectable and deserving guy. Both Rob and I did. When I look back on it, I sometimes wish I didn't, but I'm glad I did. I'm certainly not going to do it again. At the end of the day, TOM is the guy I was hoping to help, and despite your ridicule I think he was helped.

I've already agreed to withdraw any claims/rights to sponsorship 'stickers' or markings if Tom could keep Rob quiet on the forums. I think ya'll know that didn't work ~ I mean, look at the post that brought this thread back up! It was Rob, being his normal sarcastic self about 'seeing what he paid for' ~ too funny. If his before comments weren't enough, now I have rights to put my stickers all over this rig. But I won't. I forsook this rig even before it was picked up 3ish years ago. I'm sure Tom has the email or conversation still in his mind.

I simply leave it to Tom. I believe HE is a man of his word. I believe he'll give credit when credit is due. I could care less if he boldly proclaims "D&C did the suspension and tube work'. Heck! if he said 'Damian helped with the suspension and tube work' ~ I'd be happy. If he doesn't, well sad as it is, it makes little difference to me (And you'll all see why soon enough)

I've got 3 pre-teens ~ actually in a week I'll have 2 pre-teens and 1 teenager, and I'm all to familiar with ingratitude. And though it pisses me off, I'm big enough (have you seen my tummy) to let it go and realize I did what I could to help. It never was supposed to be a end-all fix or 'completed rig' ~ I was there to help, and the help was accepted. Take it or leave it. In this thread, there are no customers, just some good-old-fashion one guy trying to help another. Weather or not fame and fortune comes of it, makes little difference in the grand scheme of things.

So to Tom, I'm glad I took the opportunity to help. I hope it was a help to you. If not; I'm sorry. As said, I did what I could, as well as I could. I sincerely wish you the best in your racing.

To Rob(ert) ~ And I'm being Serious; Your the nicest guy ~ I wish I never met. And by that I mean, ask anyone ~ you're a great guy. You showed me hospitality when I was up there. Fed me, housed me, you even flew me up and back with your ninja discounts with the airlines. I REALLY appreciate you helping me help Tom. I also appreciate the time and money it took to facilitate me while I was up there. Unfortunately things happened between us that turned us into 'enemies' ~ and that's why I wish I never 'met' you. Had I not, I would simply think your a great guy by your posts, and wouldn't think anything else. Regardless, I'm still glad we got together for Tom' sake. And I'm still pulling for him to bring home some 'golds' ~ as I'm sure, are you.

Fair enough. I said my peace.

You just never know when to shut the fuck up do you:barf:

Its been shown here time and time again that you are a self serving bullshitting, truth twisting, egomanic. Its also entertaining to sit back and read your bullshit when I don't have a dog in the fight. At least it appears you aren't ripping any of us off here anymore, I feel sorry for the nitwits that still fall into the trap of giving you money to build stuff. PT Barnum said "Theres a sucker born every minute" and you always seem to find another one.

Now, I know there were hard feelings about how long it took me to build it (about a year ~ RMIHR 07 to RMIHR 08) ~ and I acquired a new enemy for it. Then after all that stuff about how long it took me, I couldn't help but laugh when it was left to sit for the last 3 years rusting in a field ~ all the while I caught and keep catching flack from my new 'buddy'.


Just to re-iterate, the point about the missed completion date vs how long it's taken me to get anything done to it are related.

If the chassis was done and in my hands somewhere around the original timeline, it might well be on it's second or third race season at this point.

I had about a 1 year window to get it done before I wouldn't have time for a while, and collectively we missed that window.

After a few delays on mine and Robert's part on getting it over to me, it showed up in November at my place, just before the snow hit.

January my daughter was born. 9 months after that, the system I had been building for 5+ years at work went into production, so those 9 months leading up to it were frantic at work, and frantic at home with a newborn, and then the various adjustments and fine tuning to the system followed after that.

The "day job and daddy job" stuff delayed my tonsillectomy over a year, too.

The original timeline would've given me a year to get stuff done before daughter #2 + work would consume my spare time for a while.

Thus, it has sat languishing in my field (to everyone's delight, including my neighbors) because I missed the window.

Heck, I missed a lot of wheeling opportunities over the same time period because my trail rig required some attention that I couldn't give it, and my racing time disappeared, too.

Last year, I had the racer out twice. Once in March, and once in October, when I rolled it. :)

Everything BUT the new racer has been going on around here, but now I'm back to having some time available now and then and here we are, plodding along.



There were so many things done that were a first for me. Moving the motor back to get better weight and balance ~ I'm excited to see how that works out. There are so many positives that this build brings that I have decided to put my differences with the other guy aside, and simply look forward with hopeful anticipation.


That was sort of the plan - a chance to try out a few new things, do something that hadn't really been done on a Scout before, and learn along the way.

Little Devil served that purpose for me when I first built it. My first SOA, my first reverse shackle, my first extreme motor (built for me, but with my input) and so on.

Sadly, technology has caught up and passed us while it's sat rusting in my field, but this should still be a step up from before.

Now for some mistakes. Am I correct understanding there was 2 welds missed? They both seem to be the ones at the end of the stock frame going up to the shock hoops. Is that correct? I'm sorry I missed a couple welds near the old floor support. I'm sure that wasn't on purpose, rather we we simply skipped them for later ~ then missed them trying to wrap it up so quickly. For that I'm sorry.


Both sides where the upper "L" comes down to meet the frame, at about the B body mount, are only half welded.

Also, both stand-offs under the A pillar for the body mounts are only half welded.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/97310-1/IMG_8380.JPG
http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/97328-4/IMG_8386.JPG
http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/97349-1/IMG_8393.JPG

Both would fail tech inspection if they don't get finished up, while the "B" welds are of an actual concern, since that's part of the rear sub-frame strength.

A few other spots were cold, or put down beautifully but missed the joint. I didn't make it back to the blaster before he put it back down on the ground, so I didn't get to see everything he noticed.

For the most part, the welds looks fine.

I also now plan to weld the seam on the "frame sleeves" - I'm sure it would hold up just fine as is, but it looks like a bucket to catch crud inside of and rust the frame apart when I'm not looking.

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/97313-1/IMG_8381.JPG

With the floors out, it shouldn't be too hard to get to.

Making the floors removable, means I can get to some of this stuff should metal fatigue set it in and tear something up.

A lot of this wouldn't have come to light if I hadn't had it blasted and someone else was looking UNDER the chassis with it on it's side.

The gouges in the axle tubes and frame are something that's easily missed with a painted frame, or just factory grime.


Regardless, if there are mistakes, forgive me. The chassis was FAR from perfect, nor was it meant to be a 'finished' product when my phase was done.


I knew "some assembly required" though if Doug hadn't caught the missed welds, or banged up the floor when flipping it over, I probably would not have noticed the missed welds, so I'm glad he noticed and made a point of telling me (Doug has been around the block a few times, and while visiting when dropping off/picking up, found out he's raced the Parker 425 a few times "back in the day" and knows Parnelli Jones and others)


I truly wish you well on its completion. I look forward to seeing it finished, and seeing you race the piss out of it.


Thanks, Damian.

I'm sure it's still a long ways off.

I haven't set a target date yet, which in some ways is good - I'm not in a rush to hurry it, but OTOH, things take longer when I'm not under a deadline. :)

Out with the old..

http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/97197-2/IMG_8343.JPG

In with the new.
http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/gallery2/d/97206-2/IMG_8346.JPG