Lake Alpine / Slick Rock Trail

[Corral Hollow Kid]

I want to re-open that killer trail that skirts the private property at Lake Alpine. I left it alone last year, but I see the forest orders have been postponed until at least December 2008...anyone game??? I want to quietly schedule a weekend to open/maintain the trail, looking at late May.

and...they cleared me of Federal NEPA violations for being involved in the clearing of that old skid road...so screw them.

email me at:

putatireonit@hotmail.com


:flipoff2: the USFS

[GhostMoney]

So you are wanting to wheel on a known closed trail?:confused:

[Corral Hollow Kid]

The trail in question was originally used by logger to skid out downed timber. Slick Rock Road (unfortunately) splits a piece of private property, and NOBODY was smart enough to retain a Right of Way (ROW). A couple years ago the property changed hands and the new owners want to close the road at the property line. Because no ROW was retained by the county or the USFS, nobody can tell them not to close the road.

The trail in question was originally planned by the USFS as a re-route to go around the private property. The USFS trails coordinator walked the trail with us before it was improved (because it was there...just in really bad shape) and approved the improvements before was started.

A LOT of work was done to improve the trail, and it quickly became a favorite with 4-wheelers that could handle the trail, because it is fairly difficult and challenging. The campgrounds were full all summer...even mid week, stuffed with Jeeps and crawler rigs. It was an awesome sight!!!

THEN...a couple of non-motorized activists heard about the trail and began the typical campaign to close it down. Of course, we all know the USFS is NOT a land management agency, but rather an environmental group paid by the Federal Government to dictate how, when, and where you are allowed to be in the National Forest.

The trail was temporarily closed for what they called "erosion" at the first creek crossing. That was a made up excuse to close down the trail. Get this..they took an excavator into the creek and dug out boulders, piling them up to try and keep us out. That's a big NO NO...digging rocks out of creek beds is strictly prohibited.

And here's a warning: The entire designated route crap the forest service is pulling right now is just a trick to have you show them all your favorite trails, so they can make a big map and call it the "proposed" inventory. Before it is approved, they have all these meetings where the non-motorized groups whine and complain, and more than half your trails will be cut from the inventory., forcing all the OHV activity to a smaller area. THEN, after they issue forest orders, all the area between what is left will be "Managed as Wilderness". As they determine a trail has "undue erosion" or that OHV use is causing "environmental damage" or impacting a "known fur bearer breeding habitat"...they close down that trail, lost forever to the land use Nazzis of the USFS.

Do you think this is my first time around on this carousel? After the FS approved the trail, then closed it down...they actually sent an investigator out to question me for possible prosecution for what they called "NEPA violations." I refused to answer any of their questions and they decided to close the investigation. Here is what I learned: If you voice your opinion, and they don't like it...they will screw with you and make your life as difficult as they can. They even tried to tell me that I could not go to any more meetings, because I asked them if they could force their Federal Land Management Practice BS on county ROW roads? They refused to answer...I demanded an answer, they did not like that.

Slick Rock Road is an Alpine County ROW. Taken back by RS-2477 many years ago.

The Stanislaus NF has postponed the issuing of Forest Orders until at least December 2008...so enjoy the forest while you can, and do NOT let the forest Nazzis bully you around. Go to all the meetings about the "route inventory"...and voice your opinion LOUDLY!

Anyone who ran this trail at Lake Alpine / Slick Rock knows how good it was, and will want to go out with me.



:flipoff2: the USFS

[Corral Hollow Kid]

So you are wanting to wheel on a known closed trail?:confused:

The USFS actually has to go through a process to close a trail. They did not go through any process, no justification, no environmental impact stuff...just a couple of complaints from non-motorized activists. And there are plenty of them around the Lake Alpine basin.

No, I do not want to wheel on a "known closed trail." I respect closures, and Wilderness boundaries, when due process is followed. They (the Stanislaus NF district) has repeatedly closed areas to motorized use for no reason, other than to put a buffer around the 2 existing wilderness areas (Mokelumne and Carson Iceberg). Buffers were not written into the Wilderness act, and the designation of "Near Natural" is simply a way to create a buffer. First they close all the roads in an area, then they call it a "roadless" area, then the completely close it down.

Unless you have been in the middle of one of these closures, you have no idea what they will do to prevent you from being there with your 4X4, Motorcycle, SUV...they don't care. Motorized use is bad, in their opinion...and whenever possible, they prohibit the use of motorized vehicles wherever they can. Then they don't have to "manage" the area. Managed as Wilderness means - No management at all.

It will happen to you if you sit back on your heels and don't pay attention. One day you will show up at your favorite trail head and there will be a big sign marked CLOSED (for environmental restoration) or...a small sign with a USFS-LE behind it waiting to write you a $1K citation for being where prohibited with a motorized vehicle.


I say it again: :flipoff2: the USFS

[thehackman15]

Slick rock is closed? I just ran it this summer, is this another trail branched off of it or something im super confused.

[Bebe]

Corral Hollow Kid,

Would you please repost this in the Land Use section?

Bebe

[greenfox]

This trail is as good as it get's

Im with you:D

[slickrock209]

I live in arnold im so down to fight these fuc*&ing pus*%y A*% retired people complaning about there walking trails.Sorry for the language but they need to just leaves us be out in the forest. The slickrock trail before it was a logging trail was a old horse carriage trail as i hear very old roots. But i definalety think we should get a group togother and stop the forestry(usfs) from shutting this trail down, and hardly anyone is out there besides 4x4s. I beleive this the same people that complanied and shut down a place called penny pines in arnold. Im standing up for are rights to wheel and im pissed theyre not going to push us out. Lets get flyers and petition going something lets stop this, we cant just wait around tell they take it away we need to take action.

Jeff

[Corral Hollow Kid]

Well...There was a recent Supreme Court ruling that says the USFS can no longer close down historic roads to motorized access. AND...since Slick Rock Road is actually an Alpine County Right of Way, the access is protected. Sort of. The issue is a private property parcel near Lake Alpine. Evidently nobody ever kept a right of way through the property, and RS-2477 does not apply to private property. Technically, the owners of the property can close that section of the road.

Here is the kicker...we cleared (with the permission and supervision of the USFS) some old logging roads that go around the private property parcel. 90% of that trail is fairly benign. The other 10% is level 10, most challenging stuff on the planet type wheeling!!!

As you guessed it...some retired, anti-motorized, opinionated youknowwhat, complained to the USFS and they made up a BS reason and closed the short section of trail that goes around the private property. That is the section that I want to re-open. It was a skid road to begin with, I mean give me a break! That area needs to be logged again anyhow!!!

I'll post more here as the highway is plowed, and the snow melts off. Cal Trans will begin clearing highway 4 on Tuesday, March 25.

:flipoff2: The USFS

[slickrock209]

March 25 thats like 15 days away.. so corral hollow kid when the highway is cleared to alpine lake the slick rock trail is reopened for summer? and can you get away w/ green sticker ohv on slick rock trail?:confused: thanks

:flipoff:usfs:flipoff:

[smurfblue40]

I want to re-open that killer trail that skirts the private property at Lake Alpine.
Is this the same trail BK was working on with you?

Give'm hell !!! :beer:

[Corral Hollow Kid]

The answer is Yes. Slick Rock Road is an Alpine County Right of Way, and Alpine County has not placed any restrictions on ANY of the roads we have jurisdiction over. So Green Sticker OHV Activity is a go on ANY county ROW road!!!

I have been told by several people that a USFS LE was telling people they could not park their trailers at the "slab" area near Utica Reservoir. That is incorrect, and a violation of your right to recreate in Alpine County.

Due to a very recent incident which involved the USFS doing law enforcement on Highway 4 near the east end of Lake Alpine, a political question was asked and answered; Since the USFS does NOT have an MOU (memorandum of understanding) with Alpine County, do they have the legal authority to perform law enforcement on roadways which they do NOT have a right of way? The answer was NO. The USFS CANNOT perform law enforcement within Alpine County, unless they are on lands declared to be part of the USFS NF system. That means they need to be in the forest, or at a designated USFS staging area, not on a road that has a ROW taken back by Alpine County. Therefore, the signs they have been posting year after year, the ones that say "STREET LEGAL VEHICLES ONLY" and from Spicer Road "NO GREEN STICKER OPPORTUNITIES BEYOND THIS POINT" have technically been a violation of your rights. I have pointed this out to them over and over, but they really don't care...to them OHVs are bad.

And here's one better; ANYBODY WHO HAS BEEN WRITTEN A CITATION ON SLICK ROCK ROAD BY THE USFS HAS BEEN UNLAWFULLY DETAINED/ARRESTED, AND YOUR CIVIL RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

I know...surprise surprise, right? Not only is Slick Rock Road an Alpine County ROW, so is the Deer Valley Trail (between Hermit Valley and Blue Lakes), Pacific Valley Road all the way to the upper shelf (even though the USFS marks it "Wilderness" at the end of the lower shelf...the actual Wilderness boundary is at the top of the ridge ABOVE the upper shelf), Highlands Lakes Road (all the way into the lakes), and a gaggle of others on the east slope that nobody is even aware of.

This question actually got me into a lot of hot water and put me at #1 on their hit list for quite some time; Can the USFS force their Federal land management practice policies on roads which they do not have a valid right of way? At the public meeting where I asked the question they tried to give a vague, around the bush answer. When I forced the issue...it went downhill from there. I was actually visited by an investigator and threatened with numerous criminal charges. Eventually it was all dropped (because I did not break the law, simply used my first amendment right and voiced my opinion), but they tried (unsuccessfully!) to intimidate me...even tried to cause trouble with my employer. Fortunately my supervisor is very pro-motorized use, and backed my position...or I would probably have been disciplined and lost my job!

I say it again...:flipoff2: the USFS

PS- yes smurf, that's the same trail.

[Corral Hollow Kid]

I talked to CalTrans yesterday (3-10-08) and they said plowing on Highway 4 will begin on March 31.

Yippie!!! Over Snow Wheelin!!!

I rode my snowmobile down Slick Rock a couple days ago...the river is REALLY high right now...it might be hard to cross without a snorkel. :shaking:

I'll keep posting condition updates. :D

[slickrock209]

Awsome the sign that says "STREET LEGAL VEHICLES ONLY" and from Spicer Road "NO GREEN STICKER OPPORTUNITIES BEYOND THIS POINT" always got me nervous with my green sticker rig thanks for clearing that up. I bet all that sunshine and snowmelt'n is really gettin the river going. Keep the updates coming i got no snowmobile to go check it for myself.Slick Rock+Wheeling+Fishing+Camping=:D

ohh yah
:flipoff2:usfs

[slickrock mafia]

The SLICKROCK trail is a HUGE part of my and my familys life and we do not want to see it go! My club and myself "SLICKROCK MAFIA CRAWLERS" would like to offer any help we can towards keeping the trail open as long as its legal and within the RULES! In the past the "MAFIA" has been at times a little wild on the trail and that just does not work! Myself personally , I have been the target of " RANGER BIRDS WRATH" ,and I DO NOT CARE FOR HER ONE BIT!!!!:mad3::flipoff2:
My truck ,tow rig, has been ticketed for illegal parking,275.00 each time:mad3:,parked in the middle of BFE for no reason!!! My rock buggy with green sticker had been turned away from the trail SEVERAL times eventually causing me to sell it to shed some of the F@#$ing hassles!! The funny thing is , is that memorial weekend officers were in there with ATVs which the green sticker rule was meant to keep out in the first place ,WTF:flipoff2:!! I would like to say however that said officers were WAY COOL, and looked to be enjoying themselves, rangers attitude however remains SHITTY! Anyway seems like Corral Hollw Kid seems to know his shit , and we would like to offer our support!!! KKEP OUR TRAILS OPEN!!!

[FJCcrawler]

have any pics of the trail??? :confused:just to get an idea of what slickrock looks like before it got closed:D

[greenfox]

No pics that I no of, But some of the the most hard core wheeling that I have ever done!

[AddictedOffroad]

Here are some pics from a buddy who ran it last summer:
http://www.jeepaholics.com/support/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=54845&SearchTerms=Slick,rock,trail

[Corral Hollow Kid]

a couple more pics...my friends.

http://www.mediamax.com/corralhollowkid/Hosted/01-01-00_0001w.jpg

http://www.mediamax.com/corralhollowkid/Hosted/Crw_2974_w.jpg

http://www.mediamax.com/corralhollowkid/Hosted/Crw_2989_w.jpg

http://www.mediamax.com/corralhollowkid/Hosted/Crw_3034_w.jpg


Oh yeah, a pic of my POS...:D

http://www.mediamax.com/corralhollowkid/Hosted/Crw_3665_w.jpg

:flipoff2: :laughing:

[FJCcrawler]

That looks like an awesome trail, Now I really want to wheel there before it closes:shaking:

[slickrock mafia]

I went up to the sno park parking lot to check on the snow situation today and there is ALOT! I can hardly wait to go wheeling, am having heavy withdrawals and must get out there ! Seems like a nighttime wheeling trip is in order very very soon !
Leave the parking lot about 8:00 pm and wheel all night , thats one hell of a good time ,Ill tell you what!!!!:D

[cbassett]

... and hardly anyone is out there besides 4x4s.
Jeff


I've spent many, many weekends on this trail going back several years. There have always been a hiking contingent on the trail. Over the past 5+ years, they've largley been trying to start chit, complaining about noise, erosion, etc.. On avg, about the only time I didn't come across a hikers on Slick Rock, has been when wheeling during the week.
The proximity to Lake Alpine, short length, easy difficulty, and beauty of this trail make it a lure to all nature lovers, including hikers.

I encourage all 'wheelers to greet hikers with the kind of respect they would enjoy from a total stranger, when they are on the trail. Animosity will detract from all positive efforts to share this gem of the Sierra.

[slickrock mafia]

Im sure this is going to get negative feedback ,but here goes anyway:flipoff2: I was reading a thread from Mr. Albright[san juaquin jeepers site] where it was stated that they,sjj, do not let sedimentation nor erosion affect the river. Let me get this straight, what have you EVER done to prevent this !? Last year when a group of friends and myself were heading to the top of the trail ,we were told to pull off the trail because the San Juaquin jeepers were coming through, are you f@#$ing kidding me? After several run ins with them i found that they conduct themselves with a air of superiority, and they continually rub locals the wrong way:mad3: On average the same locals who grew up on that trail their whole lives, pick up trash, clean up after themselves and others and enforce the rules of safe wheeling far more days annually than that godlike club " SJJ". I have personally met Mr. Albright and have found him to be extremely nice and approachable, the club ,or some members ,can take hints from him! We were up there about 40 days last season cleaning and clearing,how many days did we run into each other:shaking:
And yes there were a lot of EXTRA rocks on the ladder or stairs for your run:flipoff2:

[slickrock209]

Yah i though i seen a couple guys out there moving rocks out of the way :shaking: hillarious its suppopsed to be challinging. ohh well. my buddy says the snows meltn fast up there hopefully it didnt snow last night?

[Corral Hollow Kid]

I live 5 minutes from the trailhead...not just in the winter or summer, but year round. I work for Alpine County, and I can guarantee that I spend more cumulative time on that trail that most you all combined. I am out there every weekend, except when I'm out on the Rubicon. I see activity that just makes me shake my head. Shameful stuff like making new trails, off the main trail. I have run into some real arrogant buttheads out there. But the majority of the guys are down to earth, good people, who are there for the recreation and the experience of the run.

That being said...the USFS (Oh yeah...:flipoff2:) likes to think that they have ownership of that trail. The real deal is that Slick Rock Road is an Alpine County Right of Way. The USFS created this "adopt a trail" program, which simply meant they push the trail maintenance off onto a club of some type, so they don't have to put in the time or effort to clear and maintain the trail. Since Slick Rock Road is an Alpine County ROW, it is the responsibility of Alpine County to clear and maintain the road, NOT the USFS, or any singular club or organization. NOBODY owns the Slick Rock!!!

The time and effort put into clearing and maintaining the trail is deeply appreciated. But clearing those "obstacles" off the trail so vehicles that are NOT properly equipped to handle the difficulty level is really lame. Stacking rocks is like stacking the deck. It should not be done.

Bottom line...nobody owns Slick Rock Road. We all do our part to help keep the trail clear and clean. I too get tired of picking up trash left behind by the hikers :shaking:. So stop complaining and just have fun. We should all have the same goal...run your rig up and down the trail, and have fun. :smokin:

Now - that being said...I would like to establish a formal day for us to all get together and "open" the trail. The snow that fell did not count...it was gone by the next afternoon. Cal-Trans is going to start plowing Highway 4 on April 7, and as far as I can tell...Spicer Reservoir Road (7N01) is no longer being maintained and is therefore fair game for snow moshing!!!

Sometime in early to mid May would be good...weather and snowfall permitting. I will personally be out on the trail in the next couple of weeks. I don't know how far I'll be able to get, but I'll post updates here. Anybody else want to help organize an event? A day of trail clearing, followed by a bar-b-q??? Rules as follows: Have fun, NO COMPLAINING, have even more fun!!!

Let me know!

PS - I am very impressed by the interest taken in this trail, as shown in this forum. Keep it up!!!

[Corral Hollow Kid]

I scanned the RS-2477 docs for Alpine County...if you're interested:

http://www.mediamax.com/corralhollowkid/Hosted/rs2477.pdf

:smokin:

:flipoff2: the USFS!!!

[slickrock mafia]

hey jeff..... we would definitely be interested in a snow run/ cleaning/ clearing/bbqing:D Keep the update going and let me know on a date and i will get the boys together! I personally am trying to get some runs together for this season and could use a little direction on the organization if you are interested. Also the last week of june we are going to the rubicon for 7 or 8 days,never been so im pretty darn excited! We can talk about those tickets when we hit the trail let me know as i want to hit the trail ASAP:D:smokin: Don

[Corral Hollow Kid]

I will be on the Rubicon with the Toyota Land Cruiser Association (www.tlca.org) from June 18 through June 23. The 20th Annual Rubithon!!! (www.rubithon.com) Will you be there for the run??? Loads of Fun!!!

:flipoff2: the USFS!!!

The ONLY reason the Rubicon is still open is because El Dorado County took back the ROW using RS-2477. Hats off to El Dorado County for fighting to keep our access protected on that incredible trail!!!

I got new 37x12.50 TrXus Swampers today :mad3::D!!! Next come the ARBs, 5.29:1 gears, Longfield Berfs, and on board air!!! Maybe a rock ram too!!!

Spring is here...bigger is better!!!

[kyky777]

I do have to agree with slickrock mafia. Who i wheel with regularly! I am also part of the mafia and we do more cleaning and wheeling up there than anyone else. I am definitley down for a run middle of april snow or not!!! ROCKWELLS,44" s let's roll. Oh yeah San Jauquin Jeepers :flipoff2: for bad mouthing my bro and his buddies for supposedley moving rocks:smokin:

[Corral Hollow Kid]

I got my TrXus 37s today. DAMN...they are awesome!!! I can't wait to see them on my rig!!! :mad3: Smoking hot!!!

I move a rock now and then too...you have to make fire rings out of something. :smokin:

I need to tear apart my axles, install the 5.29:1 gears and ARBs. I'm going to PickNPull Thursday looking for a York x10 compressor for my onboard air...and I'm gonna put on a snorkel so I don't sink my rig in the river this year!!!

We are gonna groom 7N01 one more time...probably this Thursday. Technically we need to wait until I bring the snowcat back to town, then the road will no longer be "maintained" by the USFS and we can mosh!


:flipoff2: the USFS!!!

[cc93cruiser]

CorralHollowkid, is this trail open at the moment? I read on a earlier post that u live really close to the trail.. My buddy and I are on vacation this week and I was thinking about doing this trail like on wednesday.. Is it even possible to cross the trail at the moment, or is there too much snow? We are thinking about taking our 3 land cruisers up there (fzj80's)...FYI, we are fully locked,35's, lower gearging, fr &rr bumpers, m12000's? Do you have any suggestions or comments? Thanks a lot, been trying to find a good source here on Pirate and Mud, but after reading your posts, it seems like you are the most knowlegdeable about the trail, thanks inadvance....

[davis379]

:flipoff2: the USFS!!!

Hey Corral Hollow Kid

I understand your frustrations 110%,

Sometimes I see many people saying this and all I can say is......it does all of us no good when we are flipping other people/organizations off and saying eff this....and eff that....and efff them. I am not calling you out. But we all need to learn to handle things as proffesional and as responsibly as we can to find resolve. We are all grownups and in order to be taken seriosly when it comes to our land we need to think, and act as legistically and repsonsible as possible.

Once again this is not a personal attack, this is through observation that I have noticed others reacting in the same manner. I am no saint and am guilty of things too, but winds of change are among us and reacting as cussing/flipping off neanderthals isnt going to save our trails.

Just my .2 cents for everyone.

[Corral Hollow Kid]

Hey Corral Hollow Kid

I understand your frustrations 110%,

I am not calling you out. But we all need to learn to handle things as proffesional and as responsibly as we can to find resolve. We are all grownups and in order to be taken seriosly when it comes to our land we need to think, and act as legistically and repsonsible as possible.



Sounds like you are not actually paying attention to what is happening, not only here, but across the entire US as a whole. By the time it's done, the access we have to motorize use areas will be cut by 33 to 50%. I am guessing that you have attended one of their "meetings" and actually believed what they told you. You are an idiot. I once was too. Then I woke up and realized exactly what they were doing.

We put our trails on a map, just like they asked. They even helped us build some of those trails. Then they called them "user created" trails, said they were causing "undue erosion" or was too close to a "fur bearer habitat" or some other made up BS bureaucratic excuse. We are still seeing the residual effects from that liberal Bill Clinton and his "Clinton Roadless Rule." Don't you pay attention:question::question::question:

There need not be any "resolve". It is OUR national forest. They have reserved a huge chunk of it as "Wilderness" and if you don't like motorized use, go to the Wilderness and leave me the hell alone. Stop trying to make the entire Country between the 2 oceans "Wilderness". Jeez.

I have no respect for them because they did not treat me with respect. They baited me, then stabbed me in the back. I took the heat for one of their own. But not because I wanted to. Don't think for one minute that you will ever be "taken seriously" when dealing with anyone inside the USFS. You may get a smile, or told what they think you want to hear...and as soon as you turn your back and leave, they slander you and laugh in your face as they close down your access to your national forest lands.:eek:

I voiced my opinion politely. Then as I saw what their version of a "motorized" map was going to be, I got a little louder. A little more demanding of real answers. Then I finally asked some direct questions in a public meeting regarding closures, and smoke and mirror promises of new trails. After that it was made abundantly clear; If you disagree with what the USFS has to say, first they will ignore you, then they will laugh at you, then they get nasty behind the scenes. I don't think you are there yet.:shaking:

No matter what you do, or how much you say "My grandfather and I deer hunted on that trail when I was a kid, now you are telling me I can't drive to the deer camp?" you are going to loose your access...forever. Because closing down that old hunting road, or that remote trail that skirts the Wilderness boundary is really going to solve all the "Forest Management" problems, right??? RIGHT??? If you are the VP of TTORA you (of all) should know this. And if this is how TTORA is handling the "land use issues" before us at this time, then I for one am glad that I don't give TTORA my $.

Yes it is a personal attack. And yes, it sounds like you called me out. :mad3: You are right. eff this and eff that won't change anything. And neither will bending over in front of those peckerheads, either! I'm not going to give up my grandkids access to what we have access to right now, without a fight!!!

If "they" make all the decisions regarding "our" land, then it's not actually "our" land. It's their land. I have been told this by USFS management...the "recreational trails coordinator" to be exact; "You do not have the right to be in the national forest. It is a privilege that can be revoked at any time by the forest supervisor."

I am a responsible trail user. I don't go off trail. I pick up everyone else's litter. I respect other people and their opinions. I stay on trail and respect closures. I may play my stereo a little loud, but if you don't like it loud, then you're too old to run with me. And what the hell does "legistically" mean?

I'll say it again.


:flipoff2: the USFS. You are either with them, or against them.

[Corral Hollow Kid]

But we all need to learn to handle things as proffesional and as responsibly as we can to find resolve. We are all grownups and in order to be taken seriosly when it comes to our land we need to think, and act as legistically and repsonsible as possible.


That didn't seem to work to well with regards to the BLM Greenhorn area...sounds like you guys were attempting to be "taken seriously" and be "responsible" by helping map the area and clean up trash. What actually happened was you drew their attention to an area that had been abused, so they closed it down.:(

And you still want to roll over? How many times do you need to touch the oven door before you actually know it's HOT???:evil:

I post the following links as an example of what is going to happen throughout the US. It will most likely happen on the Slickrock trail, as this private property closure is definitely going to set a precedence. Evidently, no right of way was retained across the private property parcel in Steephollow, as with Slickrock. And now...it's gated and closed. The re-route has been deemed an "illegal" trail by the USFS, and will not be reopened. Making Slickrock only accessible from Utica Resevoir. Eventually...that too will be closed to motorized use. No matter how hard you try...they will keep closing down the areas.

Link to the planned work party thread: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=648132

Link to the closure thread (read several pages of this...it's what's going to happen on Slickrock...maybe this summer!!!: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=657983

:flipoff2: the USFS!!! (and evidently BLM too!!!)

[davis379]

WOW, MR Sherrif......now we are fighting amongst each other......thats the way to go, ISNT IT! Congratulations, very mature. :shaking:

This is counter productive. And THIS is why we have a long way to go.

Not one time have I insulted you, or called you names....yet you colorfly have disrespected me, and many member of our national four wheeling association with your childish behavior......I expected better......what a shame. Seems your alligator mouth is too large for your hummingbird brain at the moment!

Part of all of this is for everybody to stand together and help spread the word,and be involved, not fighting back and forth amongst each other. Tell me......what does that accomplish?? When we begin to cannabalize each other......we fail!

People like YOU make it hard for all of us to work together when you react in such a manner.....and yes,you can insult me and others all you want (which you have).......in the meantime I will be focusing my time on productive measures and important things.

Im done here......congratulations, YOU have lost MY support, a support that could have rallied many followers and helpfull hands ......we will dedicate our time elsewhere now that I know your thoughts on our insignificant little TTORA. Is this what you wanted, I am sure the Sierra Club did!

What a shame because we where set on doing everything we could to help out.


I commend you on your actions and have much respect for your cause. But calling me names does us no good..................


And one more time...........I feel the need to state the obvious KID!

Hey Corral Hollow Kid

I understand your frustrations 110%,

Sometimes I see many people saying this and all I can say is......it does all of us no good when we are flipping other people/organizations off and saying eff this....and eff that....and efff them. I am not calling you out. But we all need to learn to handle things as proffesional and as responsibly as we can to find resolve. We are all grownups and in order to be taken seriosly when it comes to our land we need to think, and act as legistically and repsonsible as possible.

Once again this is not a personal attack, this is through observation that I have noticed others reacting in the same manner. I am no saint and am guilty of things too, but winds of change are among us and reacting as cussing/flipping off neanderthals isnt going to save our trails.

Just my .2 cents for everyone.

[Corral Hollow Kid]

Where the hell did you materialize from? You post one single post, attacking my opinion and how I choose to express myself...a completely personal attack, aside from what you claim, and now you are quitting??? You should be angry with what the US Government is doing to your right to recreate on public land. You can be angry with me, but that won't help you. I am an asshole and I know it. The difference being...you are an asshole and have no idea.

I didn't ask you for anything. I don't need your support. And I did not know that you had been appointed as the sole issuer of support for this right of way. But I am guessing that you have a different plan, because YOU can evidently singlehandedly stop the menacing federal closures that are being forced upon us. Oh...I forgot. TTORA has the inside scoop with regards to land use issues, leaping tall buildings at a single bound.

I didn't call you names before. I simply stated the obvious. :grinpimp:

Yes...for those who didn't know before, I am a Deputy Sheriff. I was appointed to represent the Alpine County Sheriff's Office at the route management meetings, and head up our OHV enforcement program. The County's viewpoint clashed with the USFS and we were ignored.

Alpine County has a unique opinion, since the USFS land used to be 100% open for all user groups. Then the creation of the Carson Iceberg Wilderness, and the Mokelumne Wilderness areas closed over 90% of Alpine County to motorized use. We don't support any more closures, nor do we support any addition to the existing Wilderness areas. "NO NET LOSS" means a LOT to us. We don't have anything left!!!

Now, I gave our input verbally and in writing. They blew off input from a County whose input they should have respected. Then it got very personal between the USFS and I. I have been threatened. I have been investigated on bogus charges. My name has been slandered by USFS personnel, and it all originated within the USFS. I have no shame for fighting to keep our trails open. The sole reason that Slickrock is NOT on the cutting room floor is because I shoved the County RS-2477 documents down their throats. Deer Valley would have been next, but again...I shoved the RS-2477 docs where they needed to be. Period. :D

There was no fighting amongst us until your last post. Everyone else seems to be interested in the issue, and wants to help. But you have now officially offended me. And I don't offend very easy. If you want to continue to make an ass of yourself, you go right on ahead. But you should have kept your personal opinion of me and my opinion, to yourself! It's my right (1st amendment) to speak my mind. It's your right to speak yours. It's not your place to try and tell me how to speak, what my opinion should be, or how to express it. A PM would have been more appropriate, but since you put it out for God and all these witnesses to view, here you go!

When your favorite area is threatened by closure, and nobody seems to want to listen or care, your opinion will change. You too will get angry at the F$%&*D up system (designated route) the USFS and BLM are implementing. It is trying to "work" with those assholes that hasn't worked for anyone. They still close areas based upon complaints from the tree hugging community. Input from motorized use groups is ignored.

My viewpoint changed after we lost half our legal OHV opportunity here in the Stanislaus NF. Your post didn't change my opinion. And I'm sure this didn't change yours. But after your last post, I don't really care.

:flipoff2: the USFS!!! and if you don't care for my opinion...keep it to yourself.

[Corral Hollow Kid]

Back to the basics.

CalTrans started plowing on April 7. As of April 7 at 4pm they were past the trailhead at Lake Alpine. They may open up the west gate at the Lake Alpine Sno-Park as early as this Friday (April 11).

There is 3 to 4 feet of snow on the ground at Lake Alpine. There is more where it has drifted up, is shaded, or on a north facing slope.

I talked to NCPA as well. There is still a good amount of snow at the Spicer Reservoir dam...meaning there is still snow on the ground at Utica Reservoir and on the Slickrock trail.

The snow-cat has been removed from the Spicer Sno-Park, making the road (7N01) "unmaintained" and being fair game to "over snow 4-wheel drive" activity. (That's a politically correct I learned last year)

It looks like early to mid May to have an organized "Open the trail run." It's melting fast!!!

A rumor indicates the Holmes' (who are the "new" owners of the private property parcel) are going to make an appearance in the next couple of weeks. I'll see if I can get with Niel and see what, if anything they are going to do with respect to motorized access.

:flipoff2: the USFS!!!

[Brothergrim]

Nice CHK really nice. Now I know were the tree-hugging envior-nazi get their idea that the off-roading community is a bunch of ill-mannered rednecks. I, personally, have fought to keep areas open and then have close under my feet. Bassi Falls, Jurgens Rd Trail. Your personal issues with the USFS and any other agences is your problems, but bring your anger and problems in to 'my' hobbie is wrong. I didn't ask you to speak for me, but when you represent the off-roading commuinty, you do speak for me. I thank you for the work you are doing, but not with the language that you are doing it in. Say that you don't need him or us is shooting the off-road community in the foot. The more we stand together and become an united front, the louder our voices will be come. This is a public forum and at any time the people that we are fighting can observed what is being said and HOW it is being said. You have a right to say what you want, but think what fuel you are adding the their fires. You are speaking and repesenting the off-road community and not yourself. You, as a Deputy Sheriff, should know that image is everything. I doubt that your boss would like you speaking to the general public that you contact each day with that kind of lanuage. Poor form, poor form.

[davis379]

Where the hell did you materialize from? You post one single post, attacking my opinion and how I choose to express myself...a completely personal attack, aside from what you claim, and now you are quitting??? You should be angry with what the US Government is doing to your right to recreate on public land. You can be angry with me, but that won't help you. I am an asshole and I know it. The difference being...you are an asshole and have no idea.
.

Thats good maybe I am an asshole....sorry I never thought I was. :laughing:
You have shown me the light. All these years....wow!

I have never been "angry" with you at all EVER, I have better things to do with my time. -BUT- I was just offering my .02 cents. I wasnt telling you to shut up, or not be who you are but more or less that we should all, as four wheelers.... be mindful that we are leading by example! That is all.....

And where did I "materialize" from you ask? I am active on many four wheeling associations, and have attended some of the FOTR Rubicon sponsored cleanups in the past. I have been an active and responsible four wheeler for many years. I am currently working with a few others to form a Cal4wd endorsed club also.

And I am not quitting anything Kid. I am still involved with Friends of the Rubicon, Friends of ElDerado. We will still continue to spread the word, and work with others in an effort to prevent future trail closures. Not fight with others like what is transpiring here. This is rediculous. Sorry you have taken my words out text and I have done the same. This gets us no where!


I didn't ask you for anything. I don't need your support. And I did not know that you had been appointed as the sole issuer of support for this right of way. But I am guessing that you have a different plan, because YOU can evidently singlehandedly stop the menacing federal closures that are being forced upon us.
.

Nobody said anything about me being "in charge" or appointed to this issue. Like I said I commend and respect you for what you are doing. I am not trying to turn people against you, or cause problems, and sorry if you took it that way.

We are all frustrated here.....we are all pissed that trails are being closed.....ALL OF US.....NOT JUST YOU! And I understand you dont want help.....I am not interested in helping YOU. I am wanting to help everybody and preserve the right to recreate on land that our lord above has given us. I am fully aware of the issues we all face!




When your favorite area is threatened by closure, and nobody seems to want to listen or care, your opinion will change. You too will get angry at the F$%&*D up system (designated route) the USFS and BLM are implementing. It is trying to "work" with those assholes that hasn't worked for anyone. They still close areas based upon complaints from the tree hugging community. Input from motorized use groups is ignored.
.

Like I said already we are all pissed about whats happening with trail closures......its NOT new news to me!!! . But we need to learn to work together to win this fight. Flipping off the forest service is a poor representation of us as four wheelers and is not helping the cause. Wether we like it or not, we HAVE to work with the FS.....I dont like it, you dont like it, but theres no other way around it. These FS reps and employees can read everything you are saying which only throws gas on an already unstable fire slowly burning out of control. That is all I am saying.....please.....for gods sake stop fighting .....WE all are angry here.......but preaching hate to the organization we are trying to work with leads us nowhere....that is all. Its nothing personal.:shaking:

I am still willing to work with you and help out as much as possible! Even if YOU dont need the help(which boggles me) this isnt about you......this about the preservation of our trails for future use for all of us, and the fact that we have to come together.



------- the USFS!!! and if you don't care for my opinion...keep it to yourself.

Thats fine I will do that, but your opinion is valued and respected.....I was just offering my two pennies

From one asshole to another.....have a good day!

[Corral Hollow Kid]

This is rediculous. Sorry you have taken my words out text and I have done the same. This gets us no where!

From one asshole to another.....have a good day!

Yes it is ridiculous. I started this thread to get a bunch of us together and have a fun, spring run to clear downed trees and make the trail navigable. How this got turned into a pissing match is beyond me. I too apologize for offending you, and taking offense to your posts. This is political crap. And political crap is exactly why I have been a member of pirate4x4 for 3 years, but I only have 30 posts. I should have known better.



Even if YOU dont need the help(which boggles me) this isnt about you......this about the preservation of our trails for future use for all of us, and the fact that we have to come together.

There is nothing (realistically) that you could do to help anyhow. After about 5 years of being involved (heavily and wholeheartedly) with the USFS, I have determined the ONLY way to ensure keeping motorized trails open is by having the County of jurisdiction use the FLMPA (enacted when RS-2477 was repealed) to forcibly take back the right of way from the federal government. I rest assured that motorized access on Slickrock Road, the Deer Valley trail, Pacific Valley Road, Highlands Lakes Road, etc...roads that were taken back by RS-2477, will never be closed. That is the ONLY reason the Rubicon Trail is still open. If it had not been taken back by El Dorado County the USFS would have closed that down many years ago.

Now if I could find a way around the "Private Property" issue near Lake Alpine....



But we need to learn to work together to win this fight.

Maybe it's different in other forests...but here in the Stanislaus, there is no working together with the USFS. Loads and loads of us turned out for public meetings, submitted input and comments, and went through the process outlined by the motorized trail gods. I discovered that it does not matter how many good hearted souls you get together, they view you all as one voice.

For example; during the final part of the "public input and comment" period for the Stanislaus, about 30 of us submitted written comments regarding trails that we did not want closed down (mostly single track trails and a historical trail that leads west from the village...that motorized trail was slated to be "decommissioned" to make way for a future equestrian trail!!!). The USFS published everyone's comments word for word, especially the anti-motorized use comments. A bunch of us were troubled that we could not find our comments published with the rest, until we saw a sentence at the end of the page read something similar to: There were multiple comments submitted from the community of (insert your home town here). The comments were all from the pro-motorized community.

None of our comments were published...we were all grouped together as what we all perceived to be an "annoyance" to the process. We objected to what they had to say, so they ignored us and sent us away.



These FS reps and employees can read everything you are saying which only throws gas on an already unstable fire slowly burning out of control.

Good. Maybe more of us need to voice our REAL opinions. I honestly believe that you are too afraid they will target your favorite trail, so you don't speak your mind. That being said, they will target your trails. They will close them down and never reopen them. I don't like them. I don't trust them. And I won't cooperate with any more forced closures for no good reason. I will stay out of the closure areas, (mainly because I can't afford the fines or lawyer fees) but I don't have to like it. Yes, the fire is burning, but not slowly. We lost before it began.

I make it a point to do my homework and use my rig on County right of way roads. That way I really don't have to deal with the shitty attitude of the USFS and their bogus made up rules!!!


You, as a Deputy Sheriff, should know that image is everything. I doubt that your boss would like you speaking to the general public that you contact each day with that kind of lanuage. Poor form, poor form.


You are correct. Image is very important to political figureheads. While I am performing my duties I conduct myself with the utmost respect and courtesy to all my perspective customers :D.

The Peace Officer Bill of Rights says that I can separate myself from my duties as a peace officer, and I have the right to voice my opinion and express my political viewpoints in my own way. Don't try to intimidate me by brining my career choice into this forum. That was the first tactic the USFS tried to use, to shut me up. It didn't work then. It won't work now.

Maybe it is poor form. But it won't change my opinion. I personally feel it was poor form for the USFS to treat us like second class citizens because we want to use motor vehicles to recreate in the forest. They have a lot of ground to make up before I ever have any respect for the USFS. IMHO - they suck.

**********

I have made a few new contacts/future friends here. I have obviously made some enemies...at least 2. I will no longer participate in this forum. I did not start this to get a bunch of crap from people who I don't even know. I expected more from this site...but again, I should have known better.

I will PM those of you who contacted me and want to run the trail with us in May.

I will post trail updates somewhere underground...Now how the hell do you close a thread???

:flipoff2: the USFS!!!

[davis379]

Jeff

My intentions where never to have a thread closed.....or cause the issues it has. I was never trying to berate you at all. I want to help 110% with whats going on. Thats what we ALL need to do for the sanctity and future preservation of the trails we enjoy! Politics are always controversial and I understand people will sometimes not see things eye to eye.

You have no enemies here, we all must stand together. I will pm you about the organized cleanup, as I am still wanting to help out with things in the future.

Its all water under the bridge now and I will refrain from stepping on your toes in future posts and I will express any concerns to you via pm from now on.