This quote from the thread about H8Monday getting his bell rung while rolling twice gave me pause for a minute and brought up question.

<b>His arms and legs went stiff and he had the throttle mashed to the floor for more than a few seconds before he came to his senses and released it. Good thing it wasn't in gear.</b>

In Monster truck racing, they have an ignition cutoff that is controlled by radio and the officials have a controller for it. It a truck goes out of control, they push a button and it cuts the ignition to the truck. Should something like this be considered in rock crawling competitions? I just think with the spectators so close, it is something that should at least be considered

yup:D

I think as this sport evolve's we're going to start seing more safety requirements on the rigs;) just a couple threads over is talk of running window netting:D

The sport is in its infancy. I can't believe that the BLM (Johnson Valley) doesn't require more safety stuff, plus I think the insurance carrier would. I am waiting till they have the spectators cordoned off from the course....

I think that it will be a matter of time for remote ignition cutoff, netting, fire bottles, battery compartments, etc.

This stuff cost money and time, and doesn't contribute to the performance of the vehicle, but you need to be safe.

btt

Should be done before anyone rolls, then plows into an official or spectator, not after.

Window netting, etc. is a great idea but personal safety is one thing, crowd safety is another.

John

i brought this up in another post about MANUAL cutoffs, i said didnt make much sense like in jeffs case cuz he was out cold:rolleyes:

Brad, the cutoff I am talking about is controlled by the Officials. If they see the truck starting to run away, they press a button and cut it off, completely WITHOUT the drivers intervention.

Absolutely, exterior mounted switches should be used like in many other motor sports. It is a matter of spectator safety. The remote kill sounds like a good idea also.

I think the whole damn thing is getting out of control and someones going to die. No, I'm not negative. I POSITIVELY believe that this crap is going to end our hobby. When you have to have someone else shut your rig down, it's no longer wheelin. I can't remember the last time I knocked my self out on a trail. Well, there was this time at camp, involving a picnik table and a peice of firewood...

I mean COME ON! Where is it going to stop? This is BULLSHIT!

Originally posted by twistedmetal
I think the whole damn thing is getting out of control and someones going to die. No, I'm not negative. I POSITIVELY believe that this crap is going to end our hobby. When you have to have someone else shut your rig down, it's no longer wheelin. I can't remember the last time I knocked my self out on a trail. Well, there was this time at camp, involving a picnik table and a peice of firewood...

I mean COME ON! Where is it going to stop? This is BULLSHIT!

I have to agree:eek: but if that is your thing, go for it, I think monster trucks are :rainbow: but I'm not going to tell them to stop, saw on tv a monster truck went into the grand stands and a guy died...but he pushed away a 10 year old saving his life, the life of a total stranger, he did not now the 10 year old kid, this was like 10 years ago, and the "sport" survived as you can see. will competive rockcrawling survive if someone gets killed, I mean when not if:(:question: :question: :question: :question:

Kill swithes are the answer for the problem of out of control rolls.

But why not just set the courses up so roll overs are not so common ?

I was sitting around the other night with some friends talking about all the rolls in Calrocs vs the others.

2 possible things are going on:

less experienced drivers in Calrocs or course layout lends to more rolls.

Carnage for the Con would have done better by selling the Land Cruiser for charity rather detroying it in a club friendly challenge.

The rolls on thursday where some of the worst to date. Can't wait to find out who gets hurt in September.

Remember this.....It's not the promoters fault, period. When you sign on the line, you take responibilty for what happens to your shit. He sells tickets, that's his job. If you don't like a stage, slip it. If most competitors skip a stage, course layouts will change.....

food for thought the next time you're in line for a nasty section

see ya,

tony k

I would feel a LOT better if these comps were held in a more controlled area such as an arena. Hell, even I would consider it. I just know that everytime I see a pic(such as the ones from Carnage on the 'Con)of an event on an actual trail I think to myself "God, it looks like the place got trashed." And I'm even a wheeler so I know better. Imagine what the enviros are thinking. And I actually do worry that the trails are getting harmed.
If these comps were to be held in an arena LIKE environment, I think the competitors could run a little harder knowing they would be taken care of better after an injury than they would if they were in the middle of nowhere. Then everyone would be happy, I could plan a trip and not have to worry about not getting to wheel because the trails are no longer open to the public, and there would be less worries about injured spectators and spotters.

Now, anyone got ideas on how to build a REALLY tough course in a building?
Here's another idea. To make it tougher, how about no more spotters? I think it has become more of a competition on who spots better than driver skill. In the Rapid City area(Black Hills) we seldom if ever use spotters. For one, there is no place for them to really keep out of the way, and two, because that's not what it's about. We only use spotters when it gets dangerous or if someones REALLY having problems with an obstacle. The lack of someone hanging off the side of vehicles would sure slim down the number of finishers! Hopefully, it would also lead to more controlled and better driving.

Think about this way your in a competition and something goes wrong and the rig goes in the crowd and nobody can stop it. The sport may live on but how long will it take the competitor to get back in his rig? I don't want to ever have to apologize for killing someone's kid or loved one and neither do most of you. I say why not have the ext kill switch it gives the crowd and the arena owners that safe and squishy feeling. Just my .02

Originally posted by twistedmetal
Here's another idea. To make it tougher, how about no more spotters?

That's the way things have gone in Europe. It has become "rockracing" there. It's a timed event, I'm not sure whether they have points or not.

A kill switch for roll overs is OK but it won't stop the rig from rolling over some one. What's next, you gonna have a crane with a loose cable hooked up so if they start tumbling down a hill it can stop it? It will come to a time where the spectators are going to have to be a certain distance away from the course. And using a spotter is OK but he shouldn't be pulling on the machine. Maybe run the winch cable out but that's it.

Originally posted by 70~K5
A kill switch for roll overs is OK but it won't stop the rig from rolling over some one. What's next, you gonna have a crane with a loose cable hooked up so if they start tumbling down a hill it can stop it? It will come to a time where the spectators are going to have to be a certain distance away from the course. And using a spotter is OK but he shouldn't be pulling on the machine. Maybe run the winch cable out but that's it.

Hell, yeah! That's what I'm talking about. It's outta control. I mean, listen to yourselves. I'm shouting now!
THIS IS NOT ROCKCRAWLING, PEOPLE!!!

Go to the fukin' RODEO if you want to watch people lose control of their rides! When was the last time you were doing a nasty hill climb and 500 morons ran along behind you or stood at the bottom clickin' off snaps of you? They wouldn't do it then, why does it seem fit to do, now?

i can see the concerns, and im sure things will evolve and change as time goes on....... someone mention europe..... they do those crazty assed rally races, spectators get taken out all the time.....why? guess its part of the fun... i dunno :rolleyes: ill tell you though, if people arent out of the way they should only blame themselfs.... it is not a driver or spotters issue.... spectators should have enough brains to stand clear of danger.... and if they dont (stand clear) then its there own fault. but with the way todays society is some one else will be blamed..... :rolleyes: courses will become more "policed" due to incidents that were of no fault but the spectator...


as far as rollovers..... i dont mind floppin my rig, i dont want to do multiple barrel rolls untill my rig is a pos.... but thats trail riding..... in comp only the strong will survive........... so if you wanna be a top runner your gonna have to suck it up and do it.....


tony made a good point, if it gets to the point that no one will attempt an obsticle, the organizers might change there strategy........ someone will always make an attempt..... its compitition

Badassjeep guy made a good point the danger is why some people come. Take baseball for instance a ball shoots into the stands with the potential to hurt someone. Bullfights and the rodeo get unwanted audience participation yet I've never seen anybody shoot the animal to stop it.(Its happened I just haven't seen it). The Indy 500 the highlights on the news is the crashes especially the ones that go into the crowds. But back to the competitors point of view in these events I bet they wished it had never happened and they had done everything possible to prevent it. No one wants to be responsible for killing or hurting the fans or the people that came to see them. Its not like it happens all the time but why not prevent it. Now the whole netting and other safety issues thats up to the driver and what he/she wants to do. Leave the officials out of that stuff.

Twistedmetal. WTF? it is a motorsports competition. of course some body is gonna die. and every body who enters a motorsports competition is well aware of it and enters on thier own accord. it is what we do and are willing to accect the concencquinces when we strap the belts on. if you don't want to take the risk don't enter but if i want to risk my life that i will.

to answer your question about h8monday and a remote kill switch. NO! Jeff was trying ( in vain ) to regain control of his rig and if you would have pulled the plug on him he probally would have gotten out of his rig and thumped you. besides watching him roll with his motor at 6k was cool. watching him finally land back on all 4 tires and throw it back in gear and peel out trying to finish the course was even cooler.

where's the video of this.

Yes, BUT. If you have read any of my other very-near-whining threads, then you will also know how frustrated I am getting with these damn little kids tying tow straps to their roll bars and tell me they are "in training" for the rockracing events. They are morons. Idiots. Fuck, I mean these kids don't even know which way to turn to cheat a roll. They tell me they've seen it on TV and this is how it's done. Christ. They tear up trails that I bust my ass on trying to keep together cuz they haven't seen anything saying that this isn't how it's done. Now this isn't anyone elses problem but mine, so get off me, but for the last year or so, publicity has not provided a very good image of wheelin.
Now, you sound a little defensive. That's good. That means either your kind(the competitor) is taking a little guff over what you do, or you are feeling a little guilty about what you do.
And doesn't it bother anyone else that we have to plan REAL wheelin trips around these events on PUBLIC property?

look at it this way. if they are morons then if they really do kill themself they can't have kids which considering thier genetics is probally a good thing. tearing up trails is bad. training for competion is good. dying is a part of life.

Originally posted by camo
look at it this way. if they are morons then if they really do kill themself they can't have kids which considering thier genetics is probally a good thing. tearing up trails is bad. training for competion is good. dying is a part of life.

natural selection, if more people accepted this, humans wouldn't breed weakness.

how much do you think it would cost to install one of these remote cutoffs?

-Steve

Originally posted by offroadr35
how much do you think it would cost to install one of these remote cutoffs?

-Steve

probally no more then a few hundred bucks.

i was there and i saw many people standing on the down hill side of the roll. when the slinky rolled they asked if it was in gear before the put it right side up well either she was not in gear or it poped out well there was a near miss with one of the medics cause the rig slid down hill. remote cut offs are a good idea but gravity will prevail. heard many times people yelling at others to watch themselves especially on the down hill side or at the top of the waterfall. drivers and spectators of any and all motorsports die on the tracks and courses it's what happens when you compete.

Those of you that are saying the course was to tough or it was a roll over coarse, don't know what the f@ck your talking about. The course was great, the waterfall in question was made by 5 out of 20 rigs, 3 of witch crawled it. If the only way to make an obstacle is to hit it at 20 mph and 5000 rpms then you might have an argument.
The people that rolled did so because of to much throttle, staying in it to long or just not wanting to take the point and back up to get properly lined up.

Originally posted by ironpig70
heard many times people yelling at others to watch themselves especially on the down hill side or at the top of the waterfall.

That would be me.. the one yelling at all the spectators to move for safety.. What pissed me off.. i told the medic twice to move just incase.. and what happened she ended up running out of the way once we got it back over because she didnt listen to first or second time i told her.

imkunfused.

i thought you did a great job of keeping spectators out of harms way. i even heard several judges ( could of been you ) reminding spotters to not get in the fall line of rigs that were ready to roll. as course officials you guys have your hands full keeping track of the points and time and keeping every body including the spotter out of the way of falling rigs.


as far as the course. i thought it was great. all of the rolls i saw were due to the drivers willingness to go for it. if the course was any easyer then we would not really have anything to brag about being the club champions. as it is the course was tough the competion was fierce and we kick everybody ass. what more could you ask for. :D

Originally posted by Air Bag
Those of you that are saying the course was to tough or it was a roll over coarse, don't know what the f@ck your talking about. The course was great, the waterfall in question was made by 5 out of 20 rigs, 3 of witch crawled it. If the only way to make an obstacle is to hit it at 20 mph and 5000 rpms then you might have an argument.
The people that rolled did so because of to much throttle, staying in it to long or just not wanting to take the point and back up to get properly lined up.

I do agree with this. I think the main idea behind this whole "competition" thing was to test drivers' skills first, and vehicles second. Now, of course, it seems like more of a contest to see who has the most/best sponsors. It also seems like the majority have givin up on the "Fast as necessary, slow as possible" state of mind, and just it the GAS ON toggle switch from the get go. I'm not sure why this bothers me, as it is not my problem. But I am a little worried how it is affecting the general mind set of fourwheeling. Does this mean that when I hook up with a decent crew of guys to do some actual trail running, I am going to have to be the "odd man out" when I try to hit something with half gas?

twistedmetal.

are you a whinney little bitch or is it just me?

the whole point of "this" competion was to raise money for the rubicon. and second to determain which club was the best. on july 4 the tin benders were the best. we won do to several factors.

1. best drivers
2. best rigs
3. best stradagey


whatever who cares we won. we are the champions. where in this whole event do you or did you see the tin benders or any other club bragging about sponsors? we don't have any sponsors we were the ones giving money to help the cause. somehow i get the feeling you have no clue what is actually going on. there was actually very little full throttle attitude from any of the competiors. when we wheel out on the trail there is even less. we take our time and enjoy the trail. we will hang out at and obstacle for hours and just play around. when we get to a neat spot in the trail we will stop and have lunch, go swimming whatever. we don't just drive around at 5k rpm all day destroying shit.

First off, it is just you.
Second, Who said that this was about the Rubicon?

The only thing I said about the 'Con event was that if I wasn't a wheeler and knew better, that it looked bad. And in some of the pics, it does look pretty violent- As a general public veiw. Nice pretty background, water, a truck on its tailgate.
So settle down and read the posts thoroughly before insulting.

Here's what I have basically said in all the above posts(for those that don't take time to read them all):
I'm cool with the competition aspect, but it's getting out of hand.
The newer wheelers are not seeing the fun, weekend wheelin form of our hobby, only what cameras and magazines have been focused on for the past few years.
I'm annoyed with the fact that I am not free to hit the better trail anytime I want do to the incredible number of competitions being held on the better trails.
And when I spoke about the sponsor issues, I am talking about the big dogs, not your club outing:flipoff2:

I think the remote kill switch is a good idea, what could it possibly hurt? window netting and things of that nature are for personal safety, and are good ideas, and should be optional. I think the little things like this are not bad, but if it builds up like Nascar has as far as rules and regulations go, its gonna suck.. remember when sex was safe and racin was dangerous?
I don't like the arena type deal, nobody wants to be indoors (or out) for that matter on a set up course. what would you do for those rock hillclimbs or places like the soup bowl? I am all for the natural courses and it gives the spectator a chance to see the trail and visit these places, not just go to a fair and watch trucks fall over set up rocks.. If I was a spectator at this sport (no places close enough, but I wanna go one day) I would want to be AT the action, I'd wanna have to be cautious of the rig and where its goin, not leanin against a chained line tryin to see better.. BUT, spectators shouldn't be lined vertically or under a rig that might possibly,when it rolls, very easily roll down that hill, its just common sense. If there is strict ruling to keep the crowd from the rig then how will they be harmed?

The window nets I like. The shut off just isn't going to do it. Just 'cuz the engine is down, doesn't mean a rig will stop rolling. Not to mention, if the driver is alert, his rig will be much easier to control if it is under his control. It would be too easy for a judge to panic and shut him down prematurely.

Camo-you understanding my point, yet?

twistedmetal,

I was just curious as to what trails/areas that you were planning on wheeling that you had to change plans because an event was in progress?

We had a trip planned a while back to Farmington, NM and we forgot all about the comps down there at the time. Yes, I'm sure there is plenty of wheelin to be had, but it was going to be a little crowded there so we went to the Hills instead. I'm sure it's easy enough to plan around the comps, but that is what is a bit annoying.
There is always the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" idea, but it just kinda seems like a sell out. It just isn't my idea of wheelin.
Luckily, we have the Hills here and there is plenty of nasty wheelin with no threat of crowd or publicity invasion.
I've never been to the Hammers yet. My cousin really wants to hit 'em but he, too, was wondering if during an event the whole area is shut down, or if there are ways around the crowd. It will be a while as my new rig isn't rollin yet. Just wondering.

wheeling the hammer trails during the competitions is the best time. zero crowds because they are all over at the masters course.

the course is not a trail but a large area of rock piles. there is a few thousand acres of boulder piles so i am sure you could find a few that are not being used if you happen to be at the hammers during a competion. the place is so vast that you could go there on the largest weekend and if you really wanted to go find yourself a camping spot on one of the many dry lakes or valleys and never see another soul.