When the guys posted about the Bobby Long super axles it reminded me of a conversion a year or so ago with Jac Mac about running toy 40series cv in a rover housing.

Anyway he does make a conversion and the 40 sevies CV are the same as the Bobby long super birfs so this conversion will let you run the super birfs in a rover.

What he makes are new inner axles (with 27spline outers), machines the spindle a bit and presses in a new bush (to support the toy CV) and makes a 30spline drive hub.

He is getting back to me on the price but I would imagine this will be cheap to do (based on the rest of the shiat that he sells and the US-AUS exchange rate)

From what Ive heard they flog the piss outa these CVs with 38s+ tyres and dont break them (and the bell/cage/star comes with a lifetime warrantee).


:beer:

Sam

NOW YOU TELL ME!!! :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

HA - probobly for the best anyway. I dont think no toy super birfield is gonna spin those 42s.
:smokin:

Sam

Ok, so a couple questions:

Does this conversion use the 24 spline inner or go to the 30 spline that would require a new ARB?

And as far as a strength comparison:

How would this longfield conversion compare to a 24 spline warn shaft with CTM u-joints run inside the rover housing?

-John

John,

My guess is that with a 24 spline inner (either with the toyota cv or the ctm), the inner will fail first. CTM's are very strong and a top quality 30 spline shaft will go first.

Rich

So with either the longfields or a CTM u-joint shaft and a 24 spline inner from Mac, it sounds like we're looking at just about the ultimate strength possible for the stock rover axle housing.

I know my rear GBR/Mac 24 spline axles have survived 2 GBR 4.1 R&P sets so the next weakpoint is the R&P. It seems to me that going to a 30 spline axleshaft would be overkill unless I could get a much stronger R&P. I am still waiting on the GBR treated 4.1 R&P set so when that arrives, it will likely be the strongest yet available short of going to a Salisbury axle.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

-John

Your right on the money (pun intended) John!

--D

In my case, I have gone through a front and a rear GBR/Mac axle and the GBR 4.10 r&p's have held up. However, others have not has the same luck. I wouldn't be suprised if a r&p would be next in line with a 30 spline axle (i.e., before the ctm!). If you want to take full advantage of a ctm, then I think you just have to go to a dana 44.

Rich

Hey Rich,

We can at least test the 30 spline set up in the rear with the 4.75 GBR new gears (cryoed, shot peened, etc). I have a 30 spline ARB and axles on the way from GBR right now. I agree that the R+P is prolly the next weakest link (as John P. can attest to).

Are you coming to Solihull in Sept. Rich? We have a pretty "beastly" group lining up for the hard stuff all week up there. Would be great to have all of the FrankenRovers up there all together!!.

Blister

I'm really looking for whatever will be the strongest set-up that I can do bolt-in. Any suggestions on what is the likely candidate? I'd prefer to stick with the 24 spline ARBs since they're already in the truck, but I'd consider going to 30 splines in a year or so since the gf is going to be wanting lockers soon. Can the 24 spline ARB be converted to 30 spline, or is it easier to just buy a new 30 spline unit?


If I'm going to have to start modifying the housing, I'll stick with the stuff I have until I can put together enough money for either the bolt-on portal$$$ or a pair of mog axle$$$. I only want to do the axle swap/suspension re-design once.

-John

Blister,

I won't have my d90 ready for Solihull. FrankenRovers - good name:). Anyway, I have almost accumulated the maximum allowable vacation so that I will have to start taking it for now on. Our plans are to attend many more rover events once my FrankenRover is complete. Of course, I will have a hard time keeping up with you hot shots:rasta:

Rich

An RD56 ARB (24 spline) can be changed to an RD70 (30 spline model). What you will want is to get new side gears. When Durango 4x4 sold them I sold them for $125ish. I have seen them several places for $150ish. God only knows what GBR wants for them, but he may have them in stock. I would suggest while the locker is out to replace the seals as well. I think those are $3 for the two. However for what my opinion is worth is that you should keep the 24 spline axles and save for something that is a more long term investment. Do those axles of yours have sentimental value or something? Sell em! :flipoff2:

Way

The 30 spline locker is actually the RD76. The side gears are slightly different and the 24 spline side gears will not fit in the RD76 (Bill tried, just to unload the RD76's as RD56's cuz they were not selling). Not sure if the reverse will work though, and I am not sure you can get just the side gears anyway right now.

As far as the rover axles go, they are relatively light, have a removable 3rd member, need no custom work to fit the coil sprung rover, and have rear discs already. Most of us already have wheels to fit the pattern, etc, etc, etc (not to mention the chronic CEL you will get when you scrap the ABS sensors on an OBD2/GEMS machine).

Really it is mostly convenience and lack of someone skilled enough to build the bracketry needed to do what you did with the Dana 44, Adam.

I can build an entire truck in my garage (well, attempting to anyway), but I would not dream of fabbing the stuff necessary for your front axle conversion.

Blister

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rover Addiction
[B]I'm really looking for whatever will be the strongest set-up that I can do bolt-in.

Jack Mack Hypoid diffs will be the strongest bolt in set-up to strengthen the R&P. You can get ratios of 3.54, 4.70,3.42, 3.73, 3.90, 4.10, 4.30, 4.56, 4.85, 5.29 and 5.71.

You would have to modify your 3-link as the pinon sits a bit lower than stock, but you seem to have rear trouble only right?

Johnathan

Hmmm... I know first hand that the 10 spline locker can be converted to a 24 spline. It is my understanding that lockers designed for one axle in particular can have the side gears changed regardless. Too bad the RD76 (thanks for the correction on the PTN#) do not fit the RD56. I question if Bill Davis is correct on that one. I have received wrong information from him on more than one occasion. Regardless sorry for the wrong info if it is wrong. ARBs number is (206) 264-1669 if any one wants to check out.

As far as the rover axles go, they are relatively light, have a removable 3rd member, need no custom work to fit the coil sprung rover, and have rear discs already. Most of us already have wheels to fit the pattern, etc, etc, etc (not to mention the chronic CEL you will get when you scrap the ABS sensors on an OBD2/GEMS machine).

Bill, I would not attempt what you are doing at all. It is over my head by a long shot (very cool that you are doing that though!). However to me welding/fabbing are far simpler than rebuilding a vehicle. To get a new front/rear axle under your rig there are many people that would be more than happy to do it for you. There are many companies such as Avalanche, currie, dynatrac and similar that do this on a daily basis. OR you could cut the rover bracketry off and have someone else weld it onto the new axle. I hate to see people continue to upgrade rover axles with $4000 worth of mods when a superior axle could be had for less and someone else would even do the work. Not looking to get in an argument or anything, but I do not understand your way of thinking.

For instance call dynatrac and they can retube your axle and transfer bracketry. They can do 5 on 6.5" (I've asked) and there prices are reasonable. You could even get a Junkyard Dana 44 have it sent to currie and made to be the same dimensions as the rover and have them make/transfer brackets. I called them and it is very affordable to get new axle tubes cut to proper length installed.

Besides, rims are cheap at $100ish for a pair. The resale value for rover components is high, so why hold on to something that isn't meeting your needs. If you want to stick to rovers go with a sals, but the stock axles are not strong enoung for the majority of the people on this list and on no other vehicle (Jeep, Bronco, etc.) I do not see those owners upgrading there axles with very high dollar accessories when they constantly break there shiat.

Just my opinion.

Way

I too think that the Jac Mac hypoid ring and pinion (its a toyota hylux one)would be the best option. Then run 30/27 spline inner axles and toy super birfs on the outside with 30 spline drive flanges. This would be a strong bolt in setup which would have to be good for 38s. Im fairly sure that the last time I checked the hypoid housing was only $300AUS (this is the bolt in cast third member bit). Then you add a toy locker and ring and pinion.

I asked Jac Mac about going to 30 spline axles with the toy birfs and he didnt think it was worthwile cause you still had the smaller 27 spline inner axle outer. But if you went for the toy ring and pinion and locker then 30spline inners would be the best choice.

Sam

Ok, another option thrown into the mix:

What about those early rover larger style 23 spline CVs and inner axles? How would they compare to the yota conversion with the Bobby Long CVs?

It sounds to me like the strongest option available at this time will be the Mac conversion with the Longfields. This would be something that I could change all 3 to eventually and have an ample supply of spare parts since the yota stuff is common.

The related question is: What does Mac use on the diff end of the shafts? 24 spline for rover? 30 spline for rover? something else only available for a yota diff? Is there a choice? I've got 24 spline ARBs. I'd consider switching over to 30 splines if that's the only option, but that'll be causing the parts to not be interchangeable again. :(

I may consider the mac hypoid 3rd member, but I already have a ton of rover stuff and if I can do with what I have, I think that's the ticket. Also, I really don't like the low pinion set-up. If he made a high-pinion version, I'd be more likely to consider it.

I'd prefer to stay with my stock rover axle housing because I have 3 defenders that I have to maintain and having interchangable parts is a huge help. If I only had one, I'd probably go ahead and find a way to swap in the mog axles and be done with the whole thing.


-John

Sam
Do you have any pic. of those r.rovers with 38's if so could you post some.
Thanks,
Drew

Originally posted by green rover
Sam
Do you have any pic. of those r.rovers with 38's if so could you post some.
Thanks,
Drew

No, I dont know of any. But by doing the hypoid conversion, 30 spline axles and super birfs you are essencially ending up with a Toy front end and the toy guys run 38 on this setup (so Im led to believe)

Sam

you don't have to buy the mac diffs. you can just redrill the housing for the toyota diff bolt pattern and bolt the toy diff in. That is what i have done l am even running a high pinion set up in the front. i had custom shafts made up for the 30 spline at the diff and rover outers. i have run this set up for about 1 1/2 years it works good. Just looking for stronger cv jionts. (have but are not installed yet early 110 cv jionts)
Drew

Originally posted by Rover Addiction
Ok, another option thrown into the mix:

What about those early rover larger style 23 spline CVs and inner axles? How would they compare to the yota conversion with the Bobby Long CVs?

It sounds to me like the strongest option available at this time will be the Mac conversion with the Longfields. This would be something that I could change all 3 to eventually and have an ample supply of spare parts since the yota stuff is common.

The related question is: What does Mac use on the diff end of the shafts? 24 spline for rover? 30 spline for rover? something else only available for a yota diff? Is there a choice? I've got 24 spline ARBs. I'd consider switching over to 30 splines if that's the only option, but that'll be causing the parts to not be interchangeable again. :(

I may consider the mac hypoid 3rd member, but I already have a ton of rover stuff and if I can do with what I have, I think that's the ticket. Also, I really don't like the low pinion set-up. If he made a high-pinion version, I'd be more likely to consider it.

I'd prefer to stay with my stock rover axle housing because I have 3 defenders that I have to maintain and having interchangable parts is a huge help. If I only had one, I'd probably go ahead and find a way to swap in the mog axles and be done with the whole thing.


-John

Jac Mac can make either 24 spline or 30 spline inner axles. He can also make a toy locker with 24 spline side gears (if you wanted to run the toy crown and pinion with rover axles). He can pretty well make anything.

I think the strongest rover CV is the 110 CV which has 23 spline inner and a 24 spline stub axle. From what the toy guys are doing to their CVs I dont think that this is as strong as a Longfield. I do think that a stock 110 cv is stronger than a toy CV (only because I know guys that break heaps of toy cvs and us rover guys hardly break the 110 cv but it may just be the way they drive :flipoff2:)

Maybe the best option is to wait and see if Bobby can make a super rover CV and run these. You would be best to start with 110 cvs to get the 23 spline inner axle. If you already got the small 32 spline inners then to convert to 110 cvs you still need to change the inner axle and machine the spindle a bit (I think!!). if you stay (assuming this is what you got) with the small 32 spline inners then this is probably your weakest point.

To convert to Longfields you would need to get new drive flanges as well as the inner axles and machined spindles so to go to this step isnt much more work ($$$) and toy cvs would have to be cheaper than rovers.

Sam

Originally posted by green rover
you don't have to buy the mac diffs. you can just redrill the housing for the toyota diff bolt pattern and bolt the toy diff in. That is what i have done l am even running a high pinion set up in the front. i had custom shafts made up for the 30 spline at the diff and rover outers. i have run this set up for about 1 1/2 years it works good. Just looking for stronger cv jionts. (have but are not installed yet early 110 cv jionts)
Drew


WHAT!!!!!! I think we have a winner here. Are you saying that a toy centre will fit in the rover housing.

I was actually thinking about tyring this for the hell of it (I dont need to I run danas) but the centre actually fits in the hole.

PHUCKEN AWSOME!!!!!:bounce: :bounce2: :bounce:

And I guess that you are running the reverse cut (I think the reverse cut centres are out of 80series, 100series and bundera) centre.

Got any pics.

Sam

yes you can run the toy centers in the rover case. the rover diff and toy diff measure the same distance from center of side gear to third member mounting face. so when put the toy diff in the rover case side gears are in the right spot for the axle shafts. you have to drill new holes for the toy diff in the rover case, because the pattern is clocked the new bolt pattern falls about in the center of the rover pattern.

some problems with this are the new pattern only allows for 8 of the 10 bolts two of them are to close to the openning of the ring gear notch, so i ended up pluging these holes on the diff before install. i used a gasket for the toy diff to make my pattern. then drilled the case and tapped the case instead of using studs. i have both left the old pattern their and filled it in with welds.

the axles that i had made fit really snug at 30 spline end but were a little lose at the rover drive flange, however it hasn't broke yet. doing it again i would get 1 piece axle shafts with the rover drive flange bolt pattern i might even get it made with another 5 holes clocked and machine the hubs so i could have 10 bolts holding the axle to hub.

hope that makes some sense
Drew
i don't have any pic. that i know of. i am doing another front axle right now for the 110 cv so i take some but i will need some help posting

Drew,

Great information. Thanks.

Rich

Hi Drew,

see you figured it out.

Nice to have you here.

:flipoff2: welcome newbie

Drew is the owner of the LWB on rovertym's site for those of you trying to figure it out :)

Ron

PS I sent a CV to bobby long earlier this week (could not find it so it was a bit delayed) with the idea that he was going to break it and see where it failed first. We will see where we can go from there with upgrades and I will have a test set.

Originally posted by green rover
you don't have to buy the mac diffs. you can just redrill the housing for the toyota diff bolt pattern and bolt the toy diff in. That is what i have done l am even running a high pinion set up in the front. i had custom shafts made up for the 30 spline at the diff and rover outers. i have run this set up for about 1 1/2 years it works good. Just looking for stronger cv jionts. (have but are not installed yet early 110 cv jionts)
Drew

Hey Drew!

Didn't you break a ring and pinion on that toy setup at camp rover east with 35's? Did you discover why it failed?

The other issue that Sam mentioned was the next weakest link. The Maxi front axles that I have are 1.25" 24 spliners that neck down to ~1.01" at the CV end(23 spline 110). The toy axles are 1.25" also but only neck down to 1.18" at the CV end. IIRC the toy mini axles were stronger than the 40 series axles but its been a while since I read that thread and can't remember why. So ,ultimately, I wonder if the Longfields are the stronger CV,halfshaft combo(based on these limited axle measurements and the testimony of the toy guys who run the Hammers w/ Longfields and 38s and don't break). It will be interesting to see if Bill breaks(and what goes) with his 110 CV setup when he gets the 38.5s.:D :D :D

Johnathan

The axle end that fits in the 23 spline 110 CV's (AEU 2522's for those that care) is 1.20" (vs 1.030" with the 32 spline units). The side by side comparison is quite impressive. Not really sure how much stronger they are, but we shall see!!!

Blister

Originally posted by BillnSandi
The axle end that fits in the 23 spline 110 CV's (AEU 2522's for those that care) is 1.20" (vs 1.030" with the 32 spline units). The side by side comparison is quite impressive. Not really sure how much stronger they are, but we shall see!!!

Blister

Thats what I get for trusting memory!

Johnathan

Originally posted by green rover
yes you can run the toy centers in the rover case. the rover diff and toy diff measure the same distance from center of side gear to third member mounting face. so when put the toy diff in the rover case side gears are in the right spot for the axle shafts. you have to drill new holes for the toy diff in the rover case, because the pattern is clocked the new bolt pattern falls about in the center of the rover pattern.

some problems with this are the new pattern only allows for 8 of the 10 bolts two of them are to close to the openning of the ring gear notch, so i ended up pluging these holes on the diff before install. i used a gasket for the toy diff to make my pattern. then drilled the case and tapped the case instead of using studs. i have both left the old pattern their and filled it in with welds.

the axles that i had made fit really snug at 30 spline end but were a little lose at the rover drive flange, however it hasn't broke yet. doing it again i would get 1 piece axle shafts with the rover drive flange bolt pattern i might even get it made with another 5 holes clocked and machine the hubs so i could have 10 bolts holding the axle to hub.

hope that makes some sense
Drew
i don't have any pic. that i know of. i am doing another front axle right now for the 110 cv so i take some but i will need some help posting

that is some killer information, cause the toy diffs and high pinions are super common over here, and cheap and lots of gearing and locker options

high pinions bolt into the same 10 bolt holes that the standard pinions diffs bolt into
hp diffs are available in the fronts of:
bundera
75 series from 1990 onwards
80 series
100 series and are reverse cut, for the front
according to the toy guys, they will go :boom: in the rear pretty quickly

also if you need any pics posted up, i havea red star and so does sam, so you can do EMAIL to me or him if he wants and we can throw the pics up here for everyone to have a look........

:eek: :eek: thats awesome work dude, the only thing is the custom axles $$$$ but if you could get an existing axle, they'd be similar in width....... :rasta:

camp rover
yes i broke alot stuff their. The toy diff i broke at camp rover was a reverse set up that i was running in the rear axle. I was told not to do this because it runs the gears on the weaker side, but somethings i have to learn the hard way. i also broke both front cv and ended up leaving the rover in the words untill the next day before it was towed out.
Drew

Originally posted by evilfij


PS I sent a CV to bobby long earlier this week (could not find it so it was a bit delayed) with the idea that he was going to break it and see where it failed first. We will see where we can go from there with upgrades and I will have a test set.

Hey Ron,
What CV did you send to Bobby? Stock size or the early D110 CV?


I'll be dropping off an axle to Jack at CTM next week and we'll see what he can make to fit inside the Rover housing with minimal fuss. I know CVs are more desireable to eliminate vibrations for long distance driving, but it seems to me that for ultimate strength, the CTM-jointed shaft would be the strongest option yet available. NO necking down necessary and bolt-in with a 24 spline diff. I'll look into the cost of a 30 spline set as well so maybe we'll get another option available for everyone.

-John

Sweet! Let us know John. That setup with a part time conversion may be the way to go.

Johnathan

two other things i forgot the pinion flange needs to be redrilled for the rover drive shaft or use some other drive shaft. a high pinion diff needs to be used in the front to clear the steering linkages. jac mac has his third members notched so the linkages will clear.
Drew

I'll let you guys know what happens with the CTM setup. At this point, I'm really after the 24 spline set, so this will be what I'm having him focus on.

I'm sure making a 30 spline set would be quite simple after getting the measurements for the 24 spline. This would probably require boring the spindles, but hopefully would be minor. Only thing is that I don't have a 30 spline diff to give him for setting up the 30 spline axles. Maybe someone has one or a set of side gears laying around so we can match up the splines and make sure they're the same.

As far as running the yota diffs, that sounds like a great plan. I like the high pinion for the front to help out the driveline angle and clear the steering. I bet it could even be made to work with the 3-link with a little modification. Sounds like Drew is thoroughly testing these out for us!

-John

I sent him a 32 spline inner one. I was supposed to send a pair but one was claimed by a friend to replace a broken one the day before they went out. He is going to break it and then I will send a new pair as the test set.

Bobby and I chatted and decided to start with the 32s as they are way more common.

Ron