Keep D90 or go Buggy

[Jtisdale]

Well this thought goes through my head every time I come back from a trip out west, but especially so this year as nearly every rig on the trails we did had 40+ tires and at LEAST 100" WB (many of the obstacles demanded this). It is still a thrill being the smallest rig with all body panels and running the tough trails in a rover but this year there were definately a few lines that were either going to take out body panels or one in particular that I just had to pull up on (resting skyward on my rear tire) and pull the winch rope.

From a few of those with direct experience at this cross road, the answer is sell what I have now and go buggy. I love what the rover can do and like it's uniqueness but what is my net gain and at what cost to cut, stretch, and take it ultimately past the point of no return (litterally and financially).

So, keeping in mind that I don't want to spend much more money on modifying the D90 further and if I sold it, take that money and no more to invest in a used buggy, what would YOU do?

Edit: keeping the D90 and getting a buggy is not an option.

[m016324]

YOu can keep both just have to get a less expensive buggy like an F-toy. There are several for sale right now around 12k.

Tis for the amount of wheeling out west that you do would it really be worth having a full out buggy? I doubt it. If you are planning on moving out this way then I think you should consider it. I got to the same point as you where I was either going to wreck my truck if I kept going or end up with a jeep looking defender which wasn't the point to me.

I will eventually make my 90 a decent trail rig again, but if I'm going out to do hard trails I'll always take my buggy it's just so much easier and cheapier to fix and beat on.

-ben

[JSBriggs]

My.02

I live 1hr from the Rubicon and have seen all types. I think the smaller tired (sub 36") vehicles are more fun watch, and drive on trails. With 40" tires and without a body you are greatly limiting your self to which trails will present a challenge, and as a result 75-90% of the trails out there will become boring.

From an aesthetic standpoint, I actually don't mind battle scars on the bodypanels. I know others (Dino for one) don't care for it, but it think the dents and gashes give the truck character. You can reminisce the various trials just by looking at the dents.

-Jeff

[spork2367]

From an aesthetic standpoint, I actually don't mind battle scars on the bodypanels. I know others (Dino for one) don't care for it, but it think the dents and gashes give the truck character.

until doors don't close or stay closed or you can't roll windows down because the door is crushed in. or you have to constantly pull what's left of your fenders out to keep them from shredding tires. losing the windshield and windows sucks too.

[DiscoDino]

I'd cut and stretch...

Reasons:
1. Everything works now except the body and the WB - solve these items only
2. Still have a roof/doors for winter
3. D90 is probably the easiest to do that to (no fenders, 1/2 cab rear bulkhead, no windsheild, etc...)

Only reason to go with buggy is weight, there will always be something that will get some/lots of rock rash...but as much as I like to keep the truck light, I also like the comforts in winter...

But in "summer trim", a D90 could be running no doors & no windsheilds, onlt things would be the hood, F/R bulkheads, and rear trimmed/dove-tailed fenders...in winter, add the doors/top windows, roof, windscreen, and rear top bulkhead...sealed from the elements...Jay and I are negotiating with the Lebanese army for a pair of D110 hi-cap bodies to do this...JT, this would be great for your D90, on 42" Irok stickies and >100" WB and your good to go...

Nadim

[rock90]

As much as i like the D90. You would alot more fun with a buggy. Much easier to work on.

If you sell your 90 you can get alot for it. it will pay for a buggy and have some left over.

Ed

[PTSchram]

Bah, buy a junk bodied RRC, transfer drivetrain to one of those uber-cool tubed thingies Rockware is making and show us all how it's done.

It could probably be done pretty cheap.

[RockRover]

John,

It goes w/o saying that you know my position on the matter. Having stretched and chopped my 90, I feel that I can authoritatively answer the question FROM MY POINT OF VIEW.

What I found after all the work and $’s, is that I was left with a rig that I STILL didn’t want to <seriously> bash. Fenders, doors, bulkhead and what’s left of the rear were still factory painted OEM panels. Sure I could jump on the toughest lines, but after one weekend on several extreme trails I had the deep scars to prove it. Personally I don’t like body damage when it reaches a level of turning the panels into something unrecognizable. No matter how I ‘justified’ it every time I looked at that 14” gouge across the fender into the doors it made me cringe.

Weight and shear size was a major contributor to the above also.

Your 90 is a class act John. The question I had to answer was: Was I willing to forgo the 5 – 10% of the stupid lines I REALLY wanted to <at least> try? The answer was “no”.

Also, once I got the buggy fever I couldn’t go back. That is to say, I knew the next level <for me> lied within the realms of a dedicated buggy…Nothing less.

Lastly, I echo what many have said here. You can get more for you 90 now than what you would ever get out of it if you chopped. Parts and ease of maintenance I’ve found to have much less mental stress surrounding them than ever before. And finally, the feeling of liberation I have now is awesome as I don’t worry about the 100 little compromises I made while building a stock rig into something it’s not.

The con’s so far are what others have eluded to also. I feel this goes without saying, but trail choice and your current group of trial friends will change. Sure you’ll still hang with your close buds, but you’ll find that if you want to continue to stretch you and your new rigs abilities you’ll have to find new friends of the same abilities, hardware and mindset. Personally I think that’s great!

Hope this helps.

--D

[roverhybrids]

I'm in the exact same boat(only my D90 is not functional at all)
I can't vote, cus I can't decide what to do either. I can tell you not to take your D90 apart/sell without having the replacement!
Maybe think of it from a different perspective.
How much of the time that you are using your D90 do wish it was different?(=XX%)
How much of the time are you happy with it?(=XX%)
What do your friends/wheeling buddies have?

What do you want to change?
Tire size
wheelbase
body/vulnerablity
width
suspension
etc.
Seems to me the top three are the deciding factors............

[DiscoDino]

John,

It goes w/o saying that you know my position on the matter. Having stretched and chopped my 90, I feel that I can authoritatively answer the question FROM MY POINT OF VIEW.

What I found after all the work and $’s, is that I was left with a rig that I STILL didn’t want to <seriously> bash. Fenders, doors, bulkhead and what’s left of the rear were still factory painted OEM panels. Sure I could jump on the toughest lines, but after one weekend on several extreme trails I had the deep scars to prove it. Personally I don’t like body damage when it reaches a level of turning the panels into something unrecognizable. No matter how I ‘justified’ it every time I looked at that 14” gouge across the fender into the doors it made me cringe.

Weight and shear size was a major contributor to the above also.

Your 90 is a class act John. The question I had to answer was: Was I willing to forgo the 5 – 10% of the stupid lines I REALLY wanted to <at least> try? The answer was “no”.

Also, once I got the buggy fever I couldn’t go back. That is to say, I knew the next level <for me> lied within the realms of a dedicated buggy…Nothing less.

Lastly, I echo what many have said here. You can get more for you 90 now than what you would ever get out of it if you chopped. Parts and ease of maintenance I’ve found to have much less mental stress surrounding them than ever before. And finally, the feeling of liberation I have now is awesome as I don’t worry about the 100 little compromises I made while building a stock rig into something it’s not.

The con’s so far are what others have eluded to also. I feel this goes without saying, but trail choice and your current group of trial friends will change. Sure you’ll still hang with your close buds, but you’ll find that if you want to continue to stretch you and your new rigs abilities you’ll have to find new friends of the same abilities, hardware and mindset. Personally I think that’s great!

Hope this helps.

--D

Eventhough we are recommending different routes, think your answer is spot on and explains the feelings one has everytime they should of going full buggy...(which I have had since I truggied my Disco)...

Nadim

[Greg Davis]

I tend to like the uniqueness of Rover-based rigs, even though that means giving up a little bit of performance because of the weight. I just don't care for a buggy (especially here in the East) because they are rather "generic" to look at.

Could you REALLY get that much for your rig as it sits? From what I have seen from a friend that sells quite a few 90's, the closer they are to stock to more they seem to bring. I would be afraid that even if you sold your 90, you would still end up adding cash to build a buggy the way you want it (if you are anythng like me, you would start justifying upgrades by saying "If I'm going to do this, I don't want any regrets, so now's the time to get XXXXX").

Stick it on ebay with a starting price equal to what you could realistically build a buggy for and see where the bidding goes. That would give you an accurate guage of what the market will bear for a heavily modified 90. If you price isn't met, no harm and you know you'll either have to add cash or keep the 90.

A good friend of mine had a really nice new Unlimited TJ built last year that made all of the trails within a reasonable distance effortless for him. He quickly got bored and realized that with a family he didn't have time to head out West as much as he wanted to wheel. He spent a TON of money on it (well over $60K), listed it on ebay three seperate times, and finally got $35K for it. I know it's not a 90, but my experience with modifed rigs is you are lucky to even get the money you spent on the upgrades back, let alone the value of the base rig.

I say keep it and stretch it. You want some level of challenge on the trails that are around the East, otherwise you'll be bored and will find yourself wheeling less locally and being forced to travel greater distances to find something challenging.

[Mud Dawg]

Sell the 90. But just remember, no one's going to pay you anything extra for all the memories that go along with it. :(

[Jtisdale]

John,

It goes w/o saying that you know my position on the matter. Having stretched and chopped my 90, I feel that I can authoritatively answer the question FROM MY POINT OF VIEW.

What I found after all the work and $’s, is that I was left with a rig that I STILL didn’t want to <seriously> bash. Fenders, doors, bulkhead and what’s left of the rear were still factory painted OEM panels. Sure I could jump on the toughest lines, but after one weekend on several extreme trails I had the deep scars to prove it. Personally I don’t like body damage when it reaches a level of turning the panels into something unrecognizable. No matter how I ‘justified’ it every time I looked at that 14” gouge across the fender into the doors it made me cringe.

Weight and shear size was a major contributor to the above also.

Your 90 is a class act John. The question I had to answer was: Was I willing to forgo the 5 – 10% of the stupid lines I REALLY wanted to <at least> try? The answer was “no”.

Also, once I got the buggy fever I couldn’t go back. That is to say, I knew the next level <for me> lied within the realms of a dedicated buggy…Nothing less.

Lastly, I echo what many have said here. You can get more for you 90 now than what you would ever get out of it if you chopped. Parts and ease of maintenance I’ve found to have much less mental stress surrounding them than ever before. And finally, the feeling of liberation I have now is awesome as I don’t worry about the 100 little compromises I made while building a stock rig into something it’s not.

The con’s so far are what others have eluded to also. I feel this goes without saying, but trail choice and your current group of trial friends will change. Sure you’ll still hang with your close buds, but you’ll find that if you want to continue to stretch you and your new rigs abilities you’ll have to find new friends of the same abilities, hardware and mindset. Personally I think that’s great!

Hope this helps.

--D

It does help, and you know based on our several conversations over dinner at the CC that I regonize that if anyone has "been there done that" for both sides its you. I agree with all of your points, the one thing that I keep coming back to in staying with the defender is the example Harold and his Rat Pack buddies had. All older wheelers with nice vehicles who ran nearly every exteme trail/line in basically a stretched and modified jeep. That's the image I have for the D90, something that very much resembles the original but gives me the few extra things I need like approach/departure angle, length, and a tad more tire height. At this point I still face some body damage which I dislike as well but really only give up ~1-2% of the trails or lines I'd like to have a go at. Your point about parts and ease of maintenance as a liberating feeling are a very real part of the equation as I found out first hand again on this trip (sheared hi-steer, cracked axle housing, running out of gas...errr never mind). So here I am teetering on the edge still contemplating this decision because there is no doubt that the next mod commits me and devalues the 90 siginificantly.

Keep the thoughts coming but for everyone who has suggested keeping the 90 and getting/building even a low budget buggy, that is not an option or this wouldn't even be a debate.

[PTSchram]

So here I am teetering on the edge still contemplating this decision because there is no doubt that the next mod commits me and devalues the 90 siginificantly.

Keep the thoughts coming but for everyone who has suggested keeping the 90 and getting/building even a low budget buggy, that is not an option or this wouldn't even be a debate.

It only devalues the 90 in other people's eyes. Most likely, it will be far more valuable to you. And, with that in mind, whose value is most important here?

As for keeping the 90 and building a buggy, I'm almost always a "more is better kinda guy" :flipoff2:.

[rock90]

I have done what you are thinking. I sold my built D90 and got a buggy. The buggy is so much more fun to drive imo. You can relax and drive the buggy hard without having to worry about breaking it. If you do break it the parts are cheap and easy to purchase.

I did miss my D90 at first. There is a certain amount of class in driving a 90 on hard trails and coming out without damage. The problem is that the stress is not worth it.
You spend more time thinking about not damaging what you have, than driving the hard
line with confidence.

I think the question you have ask is what do you want to do the future. Do you what
to do hardcore crawling or have a very nice built D90 that you do not take on the 3% of trails because you could do alot of damage.

I would not modify you 90 any more than you have. IMO the 90 does not modify
well. It is heavy,wide and you pretty much have to remove everything but the bulkhead and hood.


Ed

[RockRover]

I completely agree Ed! There is a certain personal attachment to a rig that has taken you to places, both emotionally and physically, that is hard to overcome. However, once the decision is made <to go buggy> the pain/loss/insecurity of loosing the prior rig quickly diminishes and you look forward to the new frontier....What it will bring, what trails to run, who to hang with etc.

John, remember that Harolds rig was really the only true "full size" rig. As I recall most of the Rat Pac were in narrowed and extremely mod'd rigs. That guy with the Overkill axle rear comes to mind...Or how about the Longview rig (BTF chassis)? Skrazzel was narrowed 12" and extended 13". Thats not a huge committment with a $400 CJ tub, but still tremendously modified.

Bottom line is you don't have to figure out all of this tomorrow. The answer will come. Just remember that owning a well built buggy will still require some tweaks/mods...And that IMO is 50% of the fun.

Don't chop the 90....

--D

[JSBriggs]

Tis,
Just to clarify the cut and stretch option, are you talking about something like Frankenrover/Buck, a 'truggy' like Dino/Pikes Peak, or a mid wheel base defender like the one Roverhybrids built for Craig Reese?

I'm still most in favor of keeping it as is. But I also think if you are leaning towards the cut and stretch option, that it makes more sense (cost wise) to sell your truck and build a new one from parts. There are enough grey market, CDN military, and series parts out there to get them realitively inexpensive.


-Jeff

[Jtisdale]

Tis,
Just to clarify the cut and stretch option, are you talking about something like Frankenrover/Buck, a 'truggy' like Dino/Pikes Peak, or a mid wheel base defender like the one Roverhybrids built for Craig Reese?

I'm still most in favor of keeping it as is. But I also think if you are leaning towards the cut and stretch option, that it makes more sense (cost wise) to sell your truck and build a new one from parts. There are enough grey market, CDN military, and series parts out there to get them realitively inexpensive.


-Jeff

What I want to gain going the 90 route is approach and departure angle, slightly longer wheelbase, and to be able to run a 39" Krawler or 42 if one comes out. I like the overall dimensions of the 90 so I'd envision something like Bill's mild cut to his front fenders and push the axle as forward as possible and run full hydro. I don't really like the look of a straight cut rear fender but I don't see any way around that to gain the departure and rid myself of a rear corner to protect. The main problem now is that I cannot go any bigger on tire size without serious cutting and positioning and I don't need a bigger tire without some added length. In my mind it is something like a combination of Doug's red rockrover, Bill's frankenrover, and Eddie's yellow rover. All kept the rover look in various ways and that is what I would want to do if I stretch it. If you were to look at the finished product you could clearly think, "man that is one sweet defender 90" not "what did that used to be, he should have just built a buggy".

Regarding the buggy prospect, I don't want to buy or build something just because it is cheap, ideally I'd buy as much used buggy as I could with the cash available. As many have mentioned, particulary some Doug has already pointed out, there are some pretty good deals on used buggies here in the for sale section. That problem becomes selling the 90 and finding the right buggy by September for a trip already planned around the LR rally.

[Buckon37s]

I basically have what you want (just uglier). 90 Degree approach angle in the front, over 90 out back. A 106 wheelbase with 40's.

Everything that has been brought up here so far is mostly true. But, I can tell you if you build the 90 right, you can go just about anywhere a built buggy will take you. Actually, I'll amend that, you can go anywhere a buggy with the same wheelbase can go. I have even spanked buggy's before.

But, I think I would be very annoyed with my truck if I didn't have the exo. I know it's ugly, but I have rolled that thing, turtled, bashed. I drive it just like a buggy, actually, I drive it much harder than most buggy owners. And that is fun, trying everything there is, not caring, it's very liberating. I have no regrets, even though the thing is getting a complete makeover this summer.

I would boil it down to this, if you are going to try to keep it straight and not exo or build some type of protection, I would go with a buggy. But, if you are good with pounding on it, stretch it out!

btw: The weight thing is way overplayed. Yes, you will never get as light as a buggy, but you can be lighter than most modded TJ's and they do extremely well.

Edit: One last thing I should mention, after a couple/3 good hard years of real abuse, you will find that the Rover frame and body go all over the place in different directions. Just something to consider if you plan on fully getting it.

[Cirbo]

Edit: One last thing I should mention, after a couple/3 good hard years of real abuse, you will find that the Rover frame and body go all over the place in different directions. Just something to consider if you plan on fully getting it.

Interesting view. Can you explain the statement above a little further?

TIA,

jC

[muddyrover]

i was able to keep my mostly off-road 90 and build a budget buggy... this was the first day out last summer when i was still working out the bugs. As it sat there i had about $7k in it. Still a little work in progress. Beadlocks and 40" stickies are a few weeks from being installed as well as a small flatbed. this is the cheapest way to run with the big dogs, and make $50k buggies look stuipid on the big obstacles.


http://www.speed-freekz.com/bbs/files/p8190001.jpg


www.rok-freekz.com

[Jtisdale]

i was able to keep my mostly off-road 90 and build a budget buggy... this was the first day out last summer when i was still working out the bugs. As it sat there i had about $7k in it. Still a little work in progress. Beadlocks and 40" stickies are a few weeks from being installed as well as a small flatbed. this is the cheapest way to run with the big dogs, and make $50k buggies look stuipid on the big obstacles.


http://www.speed-freekz.com/bbs/files/p8190001.jpg


www.rok-freekz.com

First, I can't see your pic. Again, there is no option to get a buggy and keep the D90 for many reasons. The most relevant one outside of obvious cost and space is that I had this same thought when I went from a hard tail mountain bike to full suspension. I thought, "Oh, I'll keep the hardtail and ride it for this or that trail" and in all reality I never rode it again until I turned it into a single speed and even then maybe 1 out of 10 rides. Point being there is enough overlap that I'm going to end up not using one; this is one issue I am sure of.

[muddyrover]

as far as not using the old rig... believe it or not, i have been using it more as somewhat of daily driver again, and wheeling it all winter when the heater is a nice touch. having a backup trail rig is never a bad thing.

here's another pic from a different site:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p89/mmvljr/Jeep/MaBell/IMG_4167.jpg

[PTSchram]

Interesting view. Can you explain the statement above a little further?

TIA,

jC

As further support of the comment about the frame moving around.

Last weekend, we cut the back half of Afi's rollcage off of his Disco... Afi said that when he cut through the last side of the cage, there was an audible "Sound" and noticeable movement. It looks as though the back half of his truck is at least 1/4" shorter than it was before he caged it and beat it up. The Left rear door no longer lines up-our plans to retain opening rear doors may not be as easy as we expected.

[RockRover]

John,

Dump the 90, buy a buggie. Nuff said.

--D

[FrankenRover]

Pfft, buggies. Fawk it man, build a sweet Toy minitruck, they spanked pretty much everyone at the CC :) - Exo cage, big tires, 150 horse engine, low gears, very very light - unbeatable combo.

But in all seriousness - If I could get outta of Frankenrover anything close to what I have in it, I'd buy one of the big dog buggies for sale on the board. I've got to many projects to build more shit now.

[RockRover]

Don't discount your rig too much Billy! One of the most memorable moments at the CC was when we were all reving our engines...The big V8's roaring, then I heard the TDI reving...Priceless!

--D

PS: And I wouldn't say the Toy's "spanked" everyone!! :flipoff2: I'll have you know the last day I did clear that obstacle on Rotticillo...<snif>

[TN-D90]

Would buying a cheap D110 chassis and body, then cutting it up and transfer all the mods on your d90 be worth it? I know that I could never chop up my D90 and feel the same about body damage.

good luck

[colorover]

Tis,

I've been thinking about this since you posted, and I'm sure we all think about it every time we wheel. Unless you can hold out for awhile for mucho $$$, and knowing that your ride is still pretty clean you probably could, the buggy route would be sweet choice. But then I'm sure there is the rover geek in you that likes the stigma that the 90 provides, afterall you'll miss being called eurotrash! At the end of the day, whatever provides the most fun for you is what you run. I personally need a rig that does everything, from loading up gear and runnign the 'Con, to a long senic road trip with the wife(never happen), to gettin beat up on the hammers. IMO, unless you can hold out for a good offer on the D(like what 60+?), chop it and basterdize it into your own creation, and watch the purists cringe!

Brendon

[fridgefreezer]

Over here the answer would be to sell the 90, buy a rusted out Range Rover and stick Series body panels on, you can do that for under £1k which is way less than any decent 90 is worth.

If you want to play with the big boys, you need to go buggy or at least something that's not going to get wrecked. However, all the regular stuff your buddies do will suddenly become very boring and tedious as there's just no challenge to it.

Or, you can accept not doing a few of the really tough trails and enjoy seeing how far you can get the 90 without trashing it - many (myself included) would argue there's more skill to that as you can't just spank it everywhere / roll it over / etc. and there's something satisfying about getting a truck somewhere no-one thought you could.

[Jtisdale]

Well I have to say that I fully got swept up by the buggy...uh bug? After watching the CC video I think I've come to the conclusion that I love to wheel the D90 and I think it performs pretty well on the trail. I'm thinking over some slight re-designs to give a bit more length so I can fit 39"s and feel more stable on the longer ledges, but nothing that dramatically changes the look or goes away from the way the 90 is currently dialed in. Approach and departure angle increases will be challenging goals as well without totally hacking up the bodywork.

I'd love some suggestions, artwork, whatever to help with the design aspect.

Here's what is currently on the list:

cut trailing edge of rear fenders is some aesthetically pleasing subtle way to move the rear axle back several inches. Will probably require going fuel cell, longer lower links, modifying/changing A arm, longer driveshaft. Will the frame have to be chopped off past the axle "hump"? Relocating spring perches, shock mounts. Truss rear axle.

Front- similar issues with fenders, link lengths, driveshaft, perches/shock mounts, and trussing axle. Given the weak hi steer mount I have given some thought at this point to cutting off the ball joint knuckles and going with some Reid Kingpin Cs and knuckles. I can't tell from research if I will be able to use all other outer parts like hubs, axle shafts(is there a difference in overall length), ect. This is expensive but eliminates the weak hi steer setup and gives an overall strength gain on the outer setup. Thoughts?

Oh yeah, and a set of 39 red label krawlers

Shane and Jim Cirbus have talked about those tube fenders, challenge fenders, by North Offroad Vehicle Developments as a solution to cutting up my existing front wings...anyone running these?

I have seen some sweet used buggy's here in the FS section in the 25K range that always make me think twice...

[pendy]

I have some of the challenge fenders coming in a container. I may become a distributor for them as well. I'll share with you, when they are here. They are building buggies of a sort as well.

I still say keep the D90 and get an r-buggy. They are different animals from your two wheeled transport. Hold on to the past, it defines your future.

One life. Live it!

[Buckon37s]

Well I have to say that I fully got swept up by the buggy...uh bug? After watching the CC video I think I've come to the conclusion that I love to wheel the D90 and I think it performs pretty well on the trail. I'm thinking over some slight re-designs to give a bit more length so I can fit 39"s and feel more stable on the longer ledges, but nothing that dramatically changes the look or goes away from the way the 90 is currently dialed in. Approach and departure angle increases will be challenging goals as well without totally hacking up the bodywork.

I'd love some suggestions, artwork, whatever to help with the design aspect.

Here's what is currently on the list:

cut trailing edge of rear fenders is some aesthetically pleasing subtle way to move the rear axle back several inches. Will probably require going fuel cell, longer lower links, modifying/changing A arm, longer driveshaft. Will the frame have to be chopped off past the axle "hump"? Relocating spring perches, shock mounts. Truss rear axle.

Front- similar issues with fenders, link lengths, driveshaft, perches/shock mounts, and trussing axle. Given the weak hi steer mount I have given some thought at this point to cutting off the ball joint knuckles and going with some Reid Kingpin Cs and knuckles. I can't tell from research if I will be able to use all other outer parts like hubs, axle shafts(is there a difference in overall length), ect. This is expensive but eliminates the weak hi steer setup and gives an overall strength gain on the outer setup. Thoughts?

Oh yeah, and a set of 39 red label krawlers

Shane and Jim Cirbus have talked about those tube fenders, challenge fenders, by North Offroad Vehicle Developments as a solution to cutting up my existing front wings...anyone running these?

I have seen some sweet used buggy's here in the FS section in the 25K range that always make me think twice...

I really like what you decided and it will perform big time. The only thing I see is that if you move the front end foreword even 1.5in and 39's you will have to cut a good amount. Or lift it a lot, or run no uptravel.

[silver streak]

Call Rock Ware and get one of their new buggy body's and drop it on a cheap Disco or RR chassis. This rig costs a little over ten grand to construct and all in all works as well if not better in some ways than our comp rig. You'd be crazy not to concider it. My .02:smokin:

[pendy]

Call Rock Ware and get one of their new buggy body's and drop it on a cheap Disco or RR chassis. This rig costs a little over ten grand to construct and all in all works as well if not better in some ways than our comp rig. You'd be crazy not to concider it. My .02:smokin:


I'll give you a Disco to use Tis!

[rock90]

before you cut up your D90, I recommend you have estimates of the work carefully done.
I believe if you throw your axles under a Rockware disco buggy it would cost about the same and you would come out far ahead Equity wise.

Ed

[Buckon37s]

before you cut up your D90, I recommend you have estimates of the work carefully done.
I believe if you throw your axles under a Rockware disco buggy it would cost about the same and you would come out far ahead Equity wise.

Ed

I think he gets that it may be cheaper or the same $$. But it would also look like crap and not get him any farther up the trail. Sometimes looking good matters.

[roverhybrids]

pendy,
Put me on the list of those interested in the north offroad challenge wings

[rearranged rover]

make a 100" buggy out of your 90 using a RR chassis

[jimfoo]

make a 100" buggy out of your 90 using a RR chassis
That wouldn't make sense with the price of 90's over here. He'd be better off selling it and using an RR or Disco to make a buggy out of, even if he bought a bulkhead and replacement 90 body parts to make it look 90ish.
Just keep it until after the rally, then do what you must. You know you will still have fun at the rally with it the way it is.

[Strange Rover]

I wouldnt cut up the D90 any more...I believe that anybody that is really into wheeling and has the resourses to keep progressing will end up with a full on buggy. You will eventually end up progressing as far as you possibly can with what you have got and then you will realise the next step will have to be a full buggy.

So for me I went from a street driven rangie to a street driven rangie ute to a trailered rover hybred to the trailered mogrover...then to a POS buggy with rover drivetrain which has progressed to a full on comp machine - single seat rear engined moon buggy with ctm axled d60s plus a comp machine/trail rig - front engined, 2 seat, ctm axled front and rear steering d60s.

I actually prefer to drive the 2 seat rear steered rig cause its so much harder to drive...the single seater is a bit of a no brainer cause it side hills like crazy and it only steers from one end...its also absolutely crazy strong cause its so light.

Once you really get into the buggies you get to the point that rolling and crashing means even less than rock rash on a beater trail rig.

Thats where I am now...really capable buggies and rolling means nothing...not really a good place to be but as I say - if you are really into this you have to keep progressing.

For me the next step is a 80in Series 1. Going to jump right in with toy diffs, about an 88in wheelbase, 3.8L V6, T700, Lt230 with rear disconnect and leaf springs...and it will be fun to see where we end up. I would love to be able to spank some built LWB trail rigs with this setup..will be lots of fun to try. This rig will definately be street driven. i think thats the key. Once you start trailering you may as well go to a buggy.

You carnt stop progress...you will end up with a buggy...and then you will go back to where you started.

Stock wheeling is where its at!!!

Sam

[Roxtar]

In my case, having a buggy gives me the best of both worlds.
It allows me to build a different kind of Disco.
I want to make the D1 into more of an expedition vehicle.
Something that I can drive to Moab, do Moab, and drive home.
Planning trips to Baja, Copper Canyon, and considering heading out to Alaska some day.

When JV beckons, I can throw the buggy on the trailer with no worries about destroying the Disco.

Plus, this build allows the Disco to be a very badass DD. :D

[rock90]

Strange Rover He has a good point. I have a RRC LWB that I love for wheeling on easy trails. I keep it stock and can do 95% all the trails. listen to CD's and have air conditioning. It is challenging for those trails because it is completely stock.

Than when I want to get crazy I take the buggy and do not have to think about damage.

Ed

[Jtisdale]

I wouldnt cut up the D90 any more...I believe that anybody that is really into wheeling and has the resourses to keep progressing will end up with a full on buggy. You will eventually end up progressing as far as you possibly can with what you have got and then you will realise the next step will have to be a full buggy.

So for me I went from a street driven rangie to a street driven rangie ute to a trailered rover hybred to the trailered mogrover...then to a POS buggy with rover drivetrain which has progressed to a full on comp machine - single seat rear engined moon buggy with ctm axled d60s plus a comp machine/trail rig - front engined, 2 seat, ctm axled front and rear steering d60s.

I actually prefer to drive the 2 seat rear steered rig cause its so much harder to drive...the single seater is a bit of a no brainer cause it side hills like crazy and it only steers from one end...its also absolutely crazy strong cause its so light.

Once you really get into the buggies you get to the point that rolling and crashing means even less than rock rash on a beater trail rig.

Thats where I am now...really capable buggies and rolling means nothing...not really a good place to be but as I say - if you are really into this you have to keep progressing.

For me the next step is a 80in Series 1. Going to jump right in with toy diffs, about an 88in wheelbase, 3.8L V6, T700, Lt230 with rear disconnect and leaf springs...and it will be fun to see where we end up. I would love to be able to spank some built LWB trail rigs with this setup..will be lots of fun to try. This rig will definately be street driven. i think thats the key. Once you start trailering you may as well go to a buggy.

You carnt stop progress...you will end up with a buggy...and then you will go back to where you started.

Stock wheeling is where its at!!!

Sam


all good points Sam!

[RockRover]

More info on the LT230 Sam!

1) Pictures
2) Process for fabrication
3) Put the bit's into a box and ship to Santa Fe, NM USA

--D

[Jtisdale]

I wouldnt cut up the D90 any more...I believe that anybody that is really into wheeling and has the resourses to keep progressing will end up with a full on buggy. You will eventually end up progressing as far as you possibly can with what you have got and then you will realise the next step will have to be a full buggy.

So for me I went from a street driven rangie to a street driven rangie ute to a trailered rover hybred to the trailered mogrover...then to a POS buggy with rover drivetrain which has progressed to a full on comp machine - single seat rear engined moon buggy with ctm axled d60s plus a comp machine/trail rig - front engined, 2 seat, ctm axled front and rear steering d60s.

I actually prefer to drive the 2 seat rear steered rig cause its so much harder to drive...the single seater is a bit of a no brainer cause it side hills like crazy and it only steers from one end...its also absolutely crazy strong cause its so light.

Once you really get into the buggies you get to the point that rolling and crashing means even less than rock rash on a beater trail rig.

Thats where I am now...really capable buggies and rolling means nothing...not really a good place to be but as I say - if you are really into this you have to keep progressing.

For me the next step is a 80in Series 1. Going to jump right in with toy diffs, about an 88in wheelbase, 3.8L V6, T700, Lt230 with rear disconnect and leaf springs...and it will be fun to see where we end up. I would love to be able to spank some built LWB trail rigs with this setup..will be lots of fun to try. This rig will definately be street driven. i think thats the key. Once you start trailering you may as well go to a buggy.

You carnt stop progress...you will end up with a buggy...and then you will go back to where you started.

Stock wheeling is where its at!!!

Sam

I trailer a streetable rig for two main reasons, one is that 30-50% of my annual wheeling requires a 26+ hour drive and secondly because of the tire compound I like to run (red label krawlers). I do love to drive the D90 around town with the MTRs I throw on between trips though!

[BigBlueToy]

comp cut and stretch the rear! Full exo! truggys are better than buggys when its cold out, and truggys beat trucks on the trail most of the time.

[Dougal]

If you want to beat everyone else, then get a trials motorbike.
Swap panel damage for body damage (yours).:D

[Jtisdale]

If you want to beat everyone else, then get a trials motorbike.
Swap panel damage for body damage (yours).:D


I have always wanted one of those!

[pendy]

I drive my CT90 Honda like a trails bike. Its got a low box and oversized sproket for crawler gears.

JP

[Dougal]

I have always wanted one of those!

Me too, but I know I'd suck at riding it.:laughing:

Taking your mountainbike analogy a little futher.
I have 3.
A hardtail which I use for pedalling to work and around town. It doesn't draw attention to itself and doesn't get stolen because of that.
My 6" FS trail bike which I ride everywhere. It can do anything but air gets a little sketchy on the really ugly steep stuff.
My FS freeride bike with 7" DC forks, bigger tyres, heavier wheels etc but similar frame to the trailbike (Turner RFX/6 pack).

I've ridden the freeride bike one weekend in the last year. Because it's complete overkill for most of what I ride it gets kind of boring.
I built up that freeride bike after owning a fullsize DH rig (bighit with BETD rear end, 9" rear, 7" front etc) for over a year and riding it twice.

Sometimes the learning curve takes you past where you really want to be.

[Jtisdale]

I like your taste, I ride a Turner Flux.

[Dougal]

I like your taste, I ride a Turner Flux.

Very nice.
My trail turner is the original 5-spot prototype (basically a lightweight RFX with 5 spot geometry). But I'm running it with 6" rockers. Still can't believe my luck picking up that one, had it four years and wouldn't swap it for anything new.:smokin:

[TuffD90]

JT, Don't do what I have done. If you want to go to 40's build a buggy, you can do it for under $20K and have a nice ride. Don't ruin your D90, either keep it the way it is Or sell it. If you modify it any more it will be worthless. Go 113 to 120" wheel base. I have learned a lot the last couple of years, since I have seen you last, especially after racing KOH. Email me sometime I will fill you in. My email is the same. Carey

[Jtisdale]

Thanks Carey, I'd like to hear your opinion.

At this point I think I'm pretty much going to stay with what you see. I'd like to gain another few inches of wheelbase in the rear but dont think I'll have to cut the fender much more than I already have; this may require going to a fuel cell too. I've got a few more ideas kicking around in my mind but I do like wheeling a defender and think it is pretty dialed in where it is.

[PTSchram]

this may require going to a fuel cell too.

If you go this route, we learned some things from AFI's truggy build. He has an aluminium fuel cell from either Summit or Jeg's, approx 11-14 gallons. The cell sits vertically and is fairly narrow. What we found after just a little wheeling was that one of the welded tabs broke off the bottom of the cell, no doubt from fuel movement. As a result, we've learned that one should either take additional steps to secure the cell, or consider one where the major dimension is horizontal, rather than vertical. We have added support to AFI's, but clearly, this is reactive, rather than proactive.

A setup similar to Dark Star's is probably a better way to go.

FYI

Cheers,
PT

[Buckon37s]

If you go this route, we learned some things from AFI's truggy build. He has an aluminium fuel cell from either Summit or Jeg's, approx 11-14 gallons. The cell sits vertically and is fairly narrow. What we found after just a little wheeling was that one of the welded tabs broke off the bottom of the cell, no doubt from fuel movement. As a result, we've learned that one should either take additional steps to secure the cell, or consider one where the major dimension is horizontal, rather than vertical. We have added support to AFI's, but clearly, this is reactive, rather than proactive.

A setup similar to Dark Star's is probably a better way to go.

FYI

Cheers,
PT

Hey PT,

You just have to mount the cell with springs or straps. If you bolt it directly to the body, as the body flexes the tank will flex too. This leads to cracks and breaks. It doesn't really matter what the tank looks like, just that it is mounted with give.

[Jtisdale]

Well I got a call from an old friend the other day and just when I thought my mind was made up to stay with the 90, I think I'm going in the other direction.

I posted the defender for sale: www.d-90.com so we'll see what happens next!

[PTSchram]

Hey PT,

You just have to mount the cell with springs or straps. If you bolt it directly to the body, as the body flexes the tank will flex too. This leads to cracks and breaks. It doesn't really matter what the tank looks like, just that it is mounted with give.

Check out the pics in the build update thread. It's now securely mounted and isn't going anywhere!

[Buckon37s]

Well I got a call from an old friend the other day and just when I thought my mind was made up to stay with the 90, I think I'm going in the other direction.

I posted the defender for sale: www.d-90.com so we'll see what happens next!

Tis,

I mean this with all respect, but you are going to regret this. Your going from something very unique to something anybody can have on the cheap with no personal investment. Especially if your just buying one rather than building one. Buggies are everywhere. I can see selling yours and then building a D90 buggy, but just getting a buggy is boring, and NOT guaranteed to get you any farther up any trail.

[RockRover]

Opinions are a lot like what everyone has.

Go with what your gut tells you man. Either way, in the end, it's just a vehicle.

BTW, thanks for the friggin' tease! Any details or are you going to hold out?

--D

[Jtisdale]

Tis,

I mean this with all respect, but you are going to regret this. Your going from something very unique to something anybody can have on the cheap with no personal investment. Especially if your just buying one rather than building one. Buggies are everywhere. I can see selling yours and then building a D90 buggy, but just getting a buggy is boring, and NOT guaranteed to get you any farther up any trail.

Dave you have a good point, one I've gone back and forth on a lot. This may not be a D90 buggy but it will more than likely be a rover buggy. I may regret it; if someone is interested in buying it I'll likely sell it. If there is no interest I've got one sweet D90 to keep on wheelin'.

[Jtisdale]

Opinions are a lot like what everyone has.

Go with what your gut tells you man. Either way, in the end, it's just a vehicle.

BTW, thanks for the friggin' tease! Any details or are you going to hold out?

--D


That's the problem, one day it's keep the 90 the next it's go buggy. This all started around the time I got this friggin' brain tumor too!!!!


Matt P called about his rover buggy idea and sent some pictures, lets just say I'm strongly considering a version of that.

http://www.rockware.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=514

[TN-D90]

If you do sell it, put a D90 hood and grill on the buggy:smokin:

[RockRover]

Looks good John. Just make sure you narrorw a version of that sucka' 10". That should net you +/- 63" wide to the outside. Purrrrfect IMO with a 110-115" wb. Then you could go full width 60's or even mogs, thus netting you an affordable and strong axle combo with the ability to safely run 42's.

Nice.

--D

[Jtisdale]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. The defender is sold, on to the buggy. I'll be looking for some feedback/input as it is already built but it will be re-configured some...

More details later after I finalize the buggy purchase.

[pendy]

There is a nice single seater for sale in Vehicle section.

[Jtisdale]

There is a nice single seater for sale in Vehicle section.

Then I wouldn't have any room for you since you don't ever bring your junk out anymore!

[pendy]

I thought maybe you would buy it for me to spank you with.

[jeep937]

Any pics of this 90?

[Jtisdale]

plenty...search.

some from this thread...

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=522876&highlight=carnage

[Jtisdale]

I thought maybe you would buy it for me to spank you with.

I'll leave the spanking to you and your new buddy that recently joined the band.

[m016324]

you won't regret it honesetly. You'll be able to go places you've never gone before. You won't have to hesitate when it comes to getting into rocks. It's still just as challenging you just go to the next level of trails. Can't wait to see you out on the trails in the new buggy. By the way who bought your truck?

-ben

[pendy]

I heart dude here! But you will always be my first Tis!

Guess the handicap makes us even if you got a buggy now!

[Jtisdale]

you won't regret it honesetly. You'll be able to go places you've never gone before. You won't have to hesitate when it comes to getting into rocks. It's still just as challenging you just go to the next level of trails. Can't wait to see you out on the trails in the new buggy. By the way who bought your truck?

-ben

that's what I'm hoping Ben!!!

Guy named Justin out of Raleigh, NC bought it. It is much more mild now...I forgot how cool they look slightly modified.

[Jtisdale]

I heart dude here! But you will always be my first Tis!

Guess the handicap makes us even if you got a buggy now!

Despite the tag hanging from your rear view mirror, I've never thought of you as handicapped...well except for that time...

[Mud Dawg]

you won't regret it honesetly. You'll be able to go places you've never gone before. You won't have to hesitate when it comes to getting into rocks. It's still just as challenging you just go to the next level of trails. Can't wait to see you out on the trails in the new buggy. By the way who bought your truck?

-ben


I wish you could have seen this guy on Guard Rail two weekends ago. I know a buggy will be more bashable, but I can't imagine what "the next level" will be. Tis may be stuck wheelin out west from now on (which he may not even mind).

[Guinness44]

Congrats! Have fun, and youre no longer allowed the winch at Nemesis.

[pendy]

I wish you could have seen this guy on Guard Rail two weekends ago. I know a buggy will be more bashable, but I can't imagine what "the next level" will be. Tis may be stuck wheelin out west from now on (which he may not even mind).

Fan club?

[RockRover]

Whoa! Congrats man! Charge forward and don't look back bro. You're gonna' love this adventure!

And as always...MORE DETAILS! Is this RW's RR based buggy?

--D

[Mud Dawg]

Fan club?

Maybe. You want to join?

[Jtisdale]

I wish you could have seen this guy on Guard Rail two weekends ago. I know a buggy will be more bashable, but I can't imagine what "the next level" will be. Tis may be stuck wheelin out west from now on (which he may not even mind).


Thanks Charlie for not mentioning the near back flip on the next obstacle...

[Jtisdale]

Whoa! Congrats man! Charge forward and don't look back bro. You're gonna' love this adventure!

And as always...MORE DETAILS! Is this RW's RR based buggy?



--D

I'll give more details as soon as I wrap up some details...

Congrats! Have fun, and youre no longer allowed the winch at Nemesis.

Susan, I've already run that trail 100 times in my mind in the new rig!