Marines taking over JV?

[jjmat3]

Anyone here know anything about the Marines possibly taking over portions of or all of the JV area?
Info over on NAXJA about it. http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=945366

[b2dude]

that's lame

[Pook]

Heres the Map they posted not a very good image... Johnson Valley is suppose to be the big block at on left.

Anyone know if this is true and how soon it could happen?

[Pook]

Dirtbikers know about it http://www.district37ama.org/forums/showthread.php?p=257362#post257362

[Goatman]

Now that is scary. By reading the document, they are very serious.

I couldn't tell from the map exactly what we'd lose, but it doesn't look good. We are going to have to stay on top of this one...........

[shoyrtt]

Lets also remember that Johnson Valley is in Jerry Lewis' 41st District. ;) Send him your thoughts on the expansion: http://www.house.gov/jerrylewis/district.html

While your at it, here is a link to Duncan Hunter's homepage:
http://www.house.gov/hunter/

[DLD]

I downloaded the PDF and made some map overlays:

Here is the area they will take near Means lake, Outer Limits is cut in half:

http://www.urfracing.com/images/maps/USMC_Land_Acquisition.jpg

and the additional area of intrest:
http://www.urfracing.com/images/maps/USMC_Land_Acquisition_Additional.jpg

[EarlKann]

email sent to Jerry Lewis and Ken Calvert (my local rep)

Find your local Representivie here.
https://forms.house.gov/wyr/welcome.shtml

[Chass]

I can't even write Jerry a letter because I'm from Oregon . . .

This would be a HUGE bummer. We definitely need to stay on top of this.

Chass
ct

[mrblaine]

I'm going to repeat a few rumors that I can't verify at this point, but here's what I've been getting from 3 different unrelated sources.

They want to move the San Diego Airport to Miramar.

They want to move Miramar to 29 Palms. That necessitates more area for the flight path and the associated logistics for it.

They mean to take most of the Johnson Valley OHV in the process and based on what I've heard, the southern line is the 247.

The big sticking point as of yet is the State's 1 for 1 replacement acreage in compensation and where that would be.

I cannot substantiate any of this yet as most of it is from overheard conversations.

The only reason I'm adding it to this thread is I've heard essentially the same things from 3 different sources that are non related.

[Chass]

I found an email address for the guy who drafted that document that is referenced on the naxja site here:

http://www.fws.gov/nwi/fgdc/representatives.html

omansjd@hqmc.usmc.mil

I wrote Jim Omans a letter asking for more information and asking him not to take away our OHV area.

If you choose to write him, please be professional about it!

Chass
ct

[Chass]

If you haven't read this document, this may better explain what they are planning and why.

http://www.district37ama.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6215&d=1204511827

Chass
ct

[mobil1syn]

I can't even write Jerry a letter because I'm from Oregon . . .

This would be a HUGE bummer. We definitely need to stay on top of this.

Chass
ct
yes you can. write telling him you are from oregon and how much time you spend there a year. this equals dollars to the local economy.

just think of all the people from all over the nation and canada the take the trip to the hammers. i know its a place that many dream of visiting.

[shoyrtt]

I can't even write Jerry a letter because I'm from Oregon . . .

This would be a HUGE bummer. We definitely need to stay on top of this.

Chass
ct
Yes you can.:) Just contact you local congressman in Oregon to voice your oppostion to Duncan Hunter and Jerry Lewis.




or...:evil:






use an address in the 41st or 52nd District.:D

In the 41st, pick a three digit number on Olive Street, Redlands, CA 92373.

In the 52nd, pick a four digit number begining with 1 or 2 on Windmill View Rd,
El Cajon, CA 92020.

You have to get a little creative to talk to a politician.;)

Edit: I add to what Chass said, if you do decide to contact any of these sources, PLEASE be professional about it.

[mobil1syn]

They mean to take most of the Johnson Valley OHV in the process and based on what I've heard, the southern line is the 247.

The big sticking point as of yet is the State's 1 for 1 replacement acreage in compensation and where that would be.

that right there could prove dangerous. any ideas or links to read up on the criteria for 1 for 1? i cant think of any other place off the top of my head that match the variety the hammers offers.

[ErikB]

Wow, The Hammers of all places on the chopping block. :shaking:


Isn't enlistment/recruitment at all time lows? But they need to expand? :confused:

[Kurtuleas]

This needs to be cross posted into land-use.

I would like to know John Stewart's take on it....

[mobil1syn]

Wow, The Hammers of all places on the chopping block. :shaking:


Isn't enlistment/recruitment at all time lows? But they need to expand? :confused:
its a cost thing, operating one base is cheaper ... expand and relocate everyone to sd or expand and relocate everyone to 29 palms. seems like a no brainer for a financial standpoint especially if someone is willing to buy them out to turn the base into an airport.

i would hate to see the hammers go, no doubt. but considering the other platforms/groups fighting for closure this one sits a bit easier with me. im just afraid the 1 for 1 wont be of equal terrain.

[shoyrtt]

If you haven't read this document, this may better explain what they are planning and why.

http://www.district37ama.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6215&d=1204511827

Chass
ct

Thanks for this info.:)

The Marines are seeking the expansion to allow for "...Combined-arms Maneuver and Live-fire Training for 3 Infantry Battalions for a Minimum of 48 Hours." The current capacity at 29 Palms allows the Marines training for 2 Battalions for 36 hours.
Reading between the lines, it appears that we might avoid the chopping block for the main Hammer trails if the expansion is limited to 198K acres in "COA 1" and does not include the "additional area of interest."

Write your Congressman to voice your opinion. I believe that there are alternatives available at other DOD facilities in the area (Ft. Irwin, China Lake, Edwards AFB) that need to be explored.

[Jason M]

WTF,

Done..

[mrblaine]

that right there could prove dangerous. any ideas or links to read up on the criteria for 1 for 1? i cant think of any other place off the top of my head that match the variety the hammers offers.


Bear in mind that I am repeating unsubstantiated rumors which is why I hadn't figured out how to post up until today when this other info became public.

Originally I heard that Pendleton was on the block for sale as well, but with the Marines needing to train as a landing force with the LCAC station there, that makes little sense.

The part that does make sense is moving Miramar to 29 Palms and moving San Diego Airport to Miramar to increase it's international capabilities for the larger jets.

That and the sale of Miramar would go a long way towards financing the whole thing if that even matters.

[camo]

so which one of our land use advocates is taking the lead in this fight ?

Blue ribbon ?
united ?
friends of the pickled pigs feet ?

[Kurtuleas]

I e-mailed Don Amador on it today and he said he was waiting to hear back from John Stewart. So they know about it....


John posted on it in the Land-use forums saying it could just be from old rumors, but the PDF file is dated fairly recently :eek:

[Huhwhye]

Write your representative. I wrote mine. I don't know how much good it will do but it's worth a shot.

[chvyhs]

I don't think speaking up is selfish. Not speaking up is foolish. In the end, after everyone has had their say, and every option is considered we have to have confidence that the best course of action will be taken. Something that benefits the majority. The Marines can train somewhere else or we can go wheelin somewhere else.

[Lifted Cracker]

Aren't we getting enough training in the middle east? Keep Hammers open.

[YELLOWHOBO]

I say they send the Marines out into an "open" Hammers. Those darn military 4x4's may learn a thing or 2 from our junk rigs as we pass them on the trail. Maybe, they will let us join in their training exercises - I'd be right there beside them if I was younger and didn't have a family (4 kids) to support.

Please vote for a pro military President!!

[RedBullJeep]

We need to make sure that if this does need to go through, we actually get 1:1 on the move. No, it's not "just a hobby", it's a 4 billion + dollar industry with a HUGE chunk of it resting right here in So Cal with shrinking places to recreate. If the military needs it, I understand, I support our military fully. Also, people in this very thread have said that they hope we can keep it, but if not, it's better than losing the land to the greens...STILL, if we're going to lose the land, we need something to replace it and that needs to be addressed ASAP. Recreationalists aren't selfish, but keep in mind, that's part of the reason we're dealing with less and less and less land every day. Truckhaven, Oceano, Superstition, where else is already on the endagered list...WHERE NEXT???

Writing to ASK to keep this land is not selfish, it's necessary...in the same breath, fighting for it in this case may be selfish, unless you're fighting for a 1:1 trade as the option, stating that you understand WHY the sacrifice needs to be made.

[Tech Tim]

Very well worded Dustin, thanks.

[bagman]

I can agree with that Dustin. Also I understand alot of this problem is brought on as So Cal shrinking as a whole is pushing out the coastal bases(and major airports) and there ability for effective training having such proximity to the public. By the way the 4 billion dollar industry of offroading is still less important than one Marines life to me, even though offroading is my passion in life.

Oh and on a side note I am sure you cought that the Dakar ralley was cancled this year because of TERROISTS. This war if very real even if it doesn't hit home daily to all of us.

[RedBullJeep]

I am as patriotic as the next, and offer my thanks constantly for those serving our country...and at the same time will use the very freedoms this country is built on and that they fight for. Not if it takes away from their safety, but I'll use those freedoms to get something in exchange for what I'm giving up, especially when it's something I am already losing at an alarming rate.

[shoyrtt]

I wonder why we didn't hear more about this back in August 2007? :shaking:
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/08/marine_29palms_expansion_070804/

The District 37 AMA guys have been fighting closures like this for years. Some of their comments don't look promising :( :

...If we just go to their stakeholder meetings they are going to smile and shake our hands and snow us with their PR spin.

I thought we already learned this lesson the hard way with all the bullshit stake holder meetings from the last 20 years.

Plus, the military is going to leverage the fact that most off roaders are pro military...

[RE:Todd]

San Diego doesn't have expansion room for Lindbergh Field. There is a thought to use Miramar as an international airport with the addition of another runway, and a multi-billion dollar re-route of the 52-I15-163 interchange. The additional runway and re-route would put FA/18's on a flight path over more populated areas, increasing the perceived danger to civilians, and increasing the noise associated with 2 runways vice the current one (noise, Miramar issue for years, build your house next to an airport, then complain about it). If you move the Marines somewhere, you have a 747/L1011/next big bird capable runway, with infrastructure, 15 miles from downtown San Diego. Rip down the access gates, build a terminal, and bulldoze the rest of the buildings for parking lots, you've got a winner.

Remember eminent domain (check spelling =sic). Imagine Federal eminent domain on BLM (oooohhh federal entity) land. Who wins??

I'm all for 1 for 1 on swaps, I'm all for training access (realize, Mean's sit's right under a high speed, low level training route, don't ask me how I know this as a CMC in a Navy FA-18 squadron, deployed in support of the USMC). If you don't think this is a serious threat to the Hammers, go ahead and sit on your thumb. If you've ever sat back and said "What can I really do to make a difference"? Well, here it is, it doesn't get more real than this.

Dustin will give you a play by play of how it'll work. There are numerous TinBenders who can also. Ask Chris Tholke from FOPV how fast the gates can go up!!

Bottom line, you don't need a poll on the Intardweb, you don't need a canned letter. You need to write a letter in your own writing to your local Congressman or Senator and let them know how you feel about this at the Federal level. Then make a Xerox copy of that letter, and send it to the local representative for Yucca/Lucerne/Landers/Apple/Victorville, with a dollar amount of what you spend in there district. When I go, it's $150 in fuel (Lucerne Valley now, used to be Yucca Valley) for the tow rig, toy hauler generator and off-road rigs. Then it's usually $40 in firewood, and another $40 in average grocery store mini-mart items. That's $240 a weekend, not counting repair parts, once a month, X6 for the season.

Now, multiply those numbers by how many rigs you see on the lakebed!!

Have a nice Tin:skull:Bendery day. Realize, we are serious about land use issue's, you should be too :D :D

On edit: A couple of more things, if you've never been to the Hammers, but plan to go in the future, that's added tourism dollars for those areas, and those representatives. Think about the implications and the multiples of dollars when you write that letter.

As far as ground training, military air doesn't care what you blow up on the ground. They might say it's for additional ground training, that's fine, but it's more high speed, low-level, high performance jet training area that doesn't affect citizens. Additionally, very little area actually has live ordnance dropped; training is what it's all about.

[wngrog]

If they were to do the 1:1 land swap, I can ASSURE you that the recreational side of the land use/proximity to town,etc will not be considered. Our trails out there would not be figured into the equation.

I too was deployed to 29 stumps in 1990 in preparation for Desert Storm and to say they need more land is just a land-grab by the government.

When they proposed this, they did not expect to get the kind of reaction this will get, I assure you. Not that it will make any difference, but we need to speak up and speak up loudly. Let them expand the OTHER way. We need to tell them how much JV brings to the local economy. Money talks folks!

I am going to write Duncan Hunter today. He is a very reasonable man.

[MT4Runner]

As far as ground training, military air doesn't care what you blow up on the ground. They might say it's for additional ground training, that's fine, but it's more high speed, low-level, high performance jet training area that doesn't affect citizens. Additionally, very little area actually has live ordnance dropped; training is what it's all about.

Is this a tack we could pick up and run with? We're not namby-pamby civilians in multimillion dollar homes in SD who will bitch about a flight path over our homes. I wouldn't care one bit if jets were training overhead while I was wheelin (grew up next to an F-16 base). I would even acknowledge the infitisimal risk of a jet crash near where I'm wheelin' or camped.

I haven't been there yet, but I dream of hitting the hammers when I get my FToy built.

I'll write my MT Congressman. Yeah, that's right, we have one...but at least he's a jeeper!

[samota87]

Is this a tack we could pick up and run with? We're not namby-pamby civilians in multimillion dollar homes in SD who will bitch about a flight path over our homes. I wouldn't care one bit if jets were training overhead while I was wheelin (grew up next to an F-16 base). I would even acknowledge the infitisimal risk of a jet crash near where I'm wheelin' or camped.

I haven't been there yet, but I dream of hitting the hammers when I get my FToy built.

I'll write my MT Congressman. Yeah, that's right, we have one...but at least he's a jeeper!


Well hes got it all wrong anyway. Jeeps...:barf::laughing:


I really hope there is something that can be done to keep jv open. I look forward to running the hammers two times a year and its well worth the 24 hour trip from Washington. It will do no good to write our congress men as we are going through some bs with them up here as well. If they take Jv it will be a huge loss to the 4 wheelin community.:(

[elusiv]

I have plan B
the statement says they are only using 40% of the land they have...gee....

what about yuma? theres a lot of nothing out there as well.

as far as the heated BS.. I'm a Marine In Iraq and I think this is the dumbest I dea I have seen in a long time. While its true theres talk about moving Miramar ( I watch this close since I am stationed there and I own a home) All the talk is to Yuma or March AFB. The BRAC comes every 5 years and it was just 2 years ago.. Mirmar will be right where its at for at least another 8 years. This has nothing to do with that.
Another note.
I while back I was looking at the bomb range map of the area and means is just barely on it, but several of the other dry lakes are target zones.. Ever wonder why there are bomb craters in means? my bet is someone bombed the wrong lake bed.

JV is the best OHV area in the world. no other piece of land could replace it.

[HopeRocks]

Sup Chris? Hope all is well with you.

I agree, this is not about Miramar. And SD is in no position to move it's airport.

[bob91yj]

I wrote my congressman, Duncan Hunter, this morning, asking he not support this.

As a Navy veteran I've considered the flip side of the coin as well. It's a tough call on this one. If it can be proven that a Marines life is at risk because the Marines don't have that land, I will reconsider my opinion.

I don't see a problem sharing the land. USMC want's to cut some hot laps around one of the Lucerne desert courses in an M-1, go ahead.

Closure is NOT management.

[Chris]

My letter





Mr. Lewis,
It has recently come to my attention that the Marine Corp has proposed an expansion of the 29 Palms installation to include most or all of the Johnson Valley OHV area. This comes as a great shock to me and many of the people I associate with due to the amount of time we spend in this area. I drive what many refer to as rockcrawling buggy. This is a tube frame chassis built specifically to traverse the rocky trails and difficult sections found in only a few places in the country. Johnson valley OHV is the premier rock crawling venue on the west coast and is a mecca for people from all over the world to come and test themselves and their vehicles. Closure of this area to the public would deny myself and the thousands of other rockcrawlers in this area and around the country the right to visit an area with terrain like no other.
I visit the Johnson Valley OHV area about 6 to 8 times a year for an average of three days. These trips generally cost me around $500 in fuel, food and other necessities to care for my family of four which is mostly spent in the Lucerne, Yucca and Apple valley areas. There are generally between 100 and 500 people and families in the area at the same times that I recreate, many of them who spend far in excess of what I do to make this same trip. This would mean a great deal of lost revenue to these cities if this area were closed to public recreation. It would also provide a great deal of stress to already crowded OHV areas in other parts of the state.
I have heard talk of a "1 for 1" program of compensation for these areas if they are indeed closed. It is important to note that many different types of racing are held in these areas, including desert racing by promoters like Best in The Desert, Mojave Desert racing and Distric 37 motorcycle racing. These areas would be extremely difficult to replace for these groups. These races have a long history in this area and have added much to the local economy and lore. In addition, the rocky terrain and trails found in the Johnson Valley OHV would be completely irreplaceable by any terrain found in Southern California for us rock crawlers. It pains me greatly to see an area like this even in contention after so many valuable places have already been closed.
I have a great many memories with my family in this area and have watched my children wile away long hours enjoying themselves here. I urge you in the strongest possible terms to do whatever is necessary to keep this area open for myself and future generations. Thank you for your time.

[Mustard Dog]

I have issues with the whole '1 for 1' deal.

If they take this from us what can they possibly give us in return? Opening up more of Glamis can't replace the Hammers, hell even opening up a bunch of logging and fire roads in Eldo won't cut it.

I just don't understand where the government is going to find land to replace this with considering everything in the dez that's not already open to us is locked up by the fucking greens:mad3:

[Pook]

Who would be the best people to write to as Canadains who frequent the Hammers?

A week there can easily cost $1500-2000 if you include all the fuel spent getting there. We buy all our food once we arrive and usually need to make a few parts/beer trips back to town.

[RedBullJeep]

MD, thanks for the call, I made contact with the District Director for Assemblyman Anderson and have the ball rolling on communications.
Regarding the 1:1 deal...if they decide to take the land, a 1:1 trade is better than nothing, even if it's not our ideal land. At this point, with the dissapearance of so much mortorised recreation land, I'd be more than happy to give back to the guys/gals at Glamis versus getting nothing. Still, there's a chance we'll find some sort of resolution that will work out on all sides.
That doesn't mean I have given up on trying to keep that land for us...but while asking to keep that land open, it would be a mistake not to put forward an alternative, well in advance, if we're going to lose the land. If the land goes, there is no perfect solution, but something is better than nothing.

[Mustard Dog]

...but while asking to keep that land open, it would be a mistake not to put forward an alternative, well in advance, if we're going to lose the land. If the land goes, there is no perfect solution, but something is better than nothing.

Absoloutly

[Kurtuleas]

What we NEED to do is also contact our 4x4 organizations and ask THEM what is going on and what THEY are doing.

I am kinda in the loop with the land-use thing and the first I heard about this was YESTERDAY! I never got a BRC alert on it......

I will catch shit for this, but oh well.....

We send these organizations our $$ to deal with this, well who is holding them accountable? (don't get me wrong, I support them 100% in what they do, but this seems like a pretty fawkin big deal)

[Kurtuleas]

I know John Stewart from Cal4 knows about this...

He posted on it in the LU forum...he also posted this when asked about the dates:

My question about "recent" as opposed to "recycle" is there is no indication as to where the presentation was given.

While the date indicates "recent", I need to know if the presentation was prepared for the BLM DAC meeting that was rescheduled, or the DMG meeting this past weekend, or a standard in-house briefing.

There are bullet points in the brief that lead to serious concerns....

[RedBullJeep]

Just got off the phone with Del Albright of BRC and he said that he and John Stewart have already been discussing it and that BRC is placing this VERY HIGH on their list of priorities.

[Mustard Dog]

Just got off the phone with Del Albright of BRC and he said that he and John Stewart have already been discussing it and that BRC is placing this VERY HIGH on their list of priorities.


That's good to hear.

[Kurtuleas]

That's good to hear.

X2

[shoyrtt]

Just got off the phone with Del Albright of BRC and he said that he and John Stewart have already been discussing it and that BRC is placing this VERY HIGH on their list of priorities.
Thanks Dustin.:dustin:
The Blueribbon Coalition (BRC) needs our help to lobby in Congress etc. on Johnson Valley and many other land use issues. Please contribute if you can.;)
http://www.sharetrails.org/

[RockJeep92504]

The chocolate mtn range behind my house down in saltin sea is a live training area. I have seen very little use in the past 10 years. How about they start using the land they already have. Back when top gun was at mirmar we had tons of activity and it was fun to watch them. Anyone here thats ever run the bradshaw trail has seen the pile of spent munitions.

[toywthbdydmge]

does anyone know if was this area ever desinated as a offroad vehicle area by congress and if so when

[shoyrtt]

does anyone know if was this area ever desinated as a offroad vehicle area by congress and if so when

Without any research I would say the Secretary of the Interior deemed the land to be under the control of the BLM. The BLM then designated the land an OHV area. If there was some Congressional act that designated the area as an OHV area, good old Jerry Lewis (he is actually a great congressman for the IE) probably had a hand in it.:) Write his research staff a note, they can tell you.;)

[toywthbdydmge]

thanks I'll check into that :D

[Rooinater]

I'm going to repeat a few rumors that I can't verify at this point, but here's what I've been getting from 3 different unrelated sources.

They want to move the San Diego Airport to Miramar.

They want to move Miramar to 29 Palms. That necessitates more area for the flight path and the associated logistics for it.

They mean to take most of the Johnson Valley OHV in the process and based on what I've heard, the southern line is the 247.

The big sticking point as of yet is the State's 1 for 1 replacement acreage in compensation and where that would be.

I cannot substantiate any of this yet as most of it is from overheard conversations.

The only reason I'm adding it to this thread is I've heard essentially the same things from 3 different sources that are non related.

they are getting rid of miramar, that's not a rumor, it'll be a long process but will happen. part of miramar will be going to yuma, and possibly part to 29 stumps... yuma is already in a phase of being prepped...

[RedBullJeep]

FYI, I received a call back from Collin McGlashen, District Director working with my State Assemblyman, Joel Anderson of the 77th district.

I have to say, that with the amazing representation and communication I have had with these two in the last year, MY ASSEMBLYMAN IS BETTER THAN YOUR ASSEMBLYMAN! :p

Del Albright explained that John Stewartare working on some information for us all right now. He will send it on to a number of people, including Collin McGlashen and Assemblyman Anderson. Collin promised he would make some calls, including calls to Congressman Hunter and Assemblyman Lewis, once he had digested what I've sent to them, and what John Stewart will send to them.

And PLEASE...delete the non-related in-fighting in this thread...it truly clutters the efforts. It turned out that after the feathers were ruffled, we all are on the same side after all, right??? Let's delete the non-related stuff and clean this thread up.

[clarksinca]

I too was deployed to 29 stumps in 1990 in preparation for Desert Storm and to say they need more land is just a land-grab by the government.

I usually don't post on Pirate, so my name isn't known, but I can tell you this:

I'm stationed here NOW; and the land is DEFINATELY needed. I belong to a little group known as the Coyotes, we conduct most of the training here on base for units deploying to Iraq. And we can train a MEF, but still find ourselves in conflict at times with other units wanting to use the ranges, or having to go into check-fire as someone transits a range.

Yes, the base may SEEM huge, but when you have weapons like we do today, with 15 or a 20 mile range, surface danger zones (SDZ's) that are bigger than a small town...the terrain gets used up awful damn fast. To conduct large scale operations such as a MEB would require...no way.

Accidents will start to happen, people will become geographicly challenged (see: lost) and wander into each others ranges. It would be a mess. Safety alone dictates that this base must grow.

Now, if I know the Marine Corps...and after 19 years I'd like to think I do...I'd be willing to bet vital parts of my anatomy that the Johnson Valley course of action is NOT the only one on the table.

I can certainly understand that we as a community have seen this time and time again, where public lands and favorite trails get snatched away and we're left looking at a locked gate. I'm opposed to this plan myself on a personal level, I live right next to the Hammers...and my focus for rig build over the last 3 years has just been so I can go play with my friends at the Hammers. I have friends in Victor Valley 4 Wheelers that I know this is going to CRUSH them.

Give up? Hell no, I expect nothing less than EVERY member, lurker, wife, driver, dog, fish and dust bunny to write letters, make phone calls, do some research to help propose an alternative. This is all in the "STUDY" phase still.

Besides...how far do you think this will get once a democrat is elected? Do you not remember what Clinton did to the military? The Marine base isn't being GIVEN this land or taking it by immenent domain...they're buying it. That requires funding.

[Mustard Dog]

Obviously some of you will notice some missing posts.

All I'm trying to do here is shut down and clean up some of the typical infighting and slaming that the PBB is well known for.

This issue is fawkin MASSIVE for us and this type of recreation we and our familys enjoy, lets keep that in mind here:)

[Kurtuleas]

Just FYI...

I sent a bulletin on this thru the FOE Myspace....

Only a FEW of the 1,200 friends I have added have passed it on. WTF!!!

Get the word out people!

[Hammer Hog]

I'm going to remain optimistic for two reasons.

1) People live just south of the lake-bed and I doubt the military will want to infringe on their privicy...but who knows?

2) I have a good four-wheel'n friend that has a very good personal working relationship with the very top brass on the 29 Palms Marine Base...Brigadier General Spiese (http://www.29palms.usmc.mil/cg.asp)

My buddy has heard of this threat. He said he and Brigadier General Spiese had talked about this very topic (Off the Cuff). But he also went on to say that the interest in JV is a very remote possibility. The base is more interested in the northeast as far as land acquisition is concerned. But he also said that they do take public input seriously...and is aware of the current land use in JV. But my buddy also said to continue to be heard.

My buddy is going to get the proper contact info to me within the next few days. I will pass it on as soon as possible.

[Jeepndel]

John Stewart, myself and some others are still ferreting out the final facts on this so we can post up the attack plan. Dustin and others have given us some good stuff to go on, and most of it is real; and here. The Hammers are in trouble. But...we know about it; we're in the game; and this is the time to grab things by the horns and make something happen.

I hope Hammer Hog is right about this may not be as bad as we have heard. But we can't sit by too long without slamming some stuff out there. We've been taken before.

Now, hear me. Some of you get tired (I'm saying this nicely) of us land use guys quacking over and over about joining this, contributing to that, blah blah. I know; I know. But it's what we do in order to save our trails. Many of you responded to this over the Rubicon. I thank you for that. :smokin:

So it warms my heart to know that right here, right now, we have an Army waiting to jump in with both feet, attack the hill (figuratively speaking) and maintain our WAY OF LIFE. And no use coming back at me with warm and fuzzy stuff about the military, training our boys, or any of that. I'm with ya a million percent on supporting our troops. I'll put my 14 years of military background against anyone to show my patriotism. But this is just business -- land use business. Like the Ft. Irwin expansion if you remember how we lost over that one.

Because we plan to take this fight for the Hammers all the way to the last man, doesn't mean we don't support our troops. Heck, in fact, we'll go to bat to help our military find SOMEPLACE else to do their training. Am I right?

We'll have more soon; stay in the game; keep gathering facts. This fight is one that we'll fight with passion.

And if you're still sitting on some applications or membership brochures for this or that organization, I will say it again -- get 'r done NOW.

Del

[zcarczar]

I will be writing letters tomorrow, I plan on sending it to Lewis, Fienstein and Boxer. Should I also send letters to my state representatives?

[shoyrtt]

I will be writing letters tomorrow, I plan on sending it to Lewis, Fienstein and Boxer. Should I also send letters to my state representatives?
It can't hurt to send a letter to anyone who will listen.:)

BTW: I have a contact and fellow wheeler in DC who is doing research for us. I hope to have some news from that front soon.;)

[kf6zpl]

The "facts" as I know them to be:

There are TWO proposals by the Marine Corps to encroach on OHV areas.

1. The Marine Corps Logistics Annex at Yermo has a proposal that will extend into Stoddard Wells OHV Area.

2. The Marine Corps 29 Palms Base has a proposal that will extend into Johnson Valley OHV Area.

I do not have a lot of specifics about the Stoddard Wells issue.

I believe everyone has seen the proposal that was posted in another thread.

Thanks to the guys that did the map overlay as it has helped quantify the impacts.

The presentation was given to several OHV people last week as part of an AMA visit to Washington DC. The project has been rumored for a couple of months. A certain OHV group in the state has known about it for several weeks and chose to not let anyone in on the secret.

During a 5 and half hour drive to Bishop, I spend over three hours on the phone trying to confirm several key points.

The general consensus by a couple of "OHV groups" is that it is a politically pushed effort and a done deal. I have been told that Duncan Hunter (Republican from the 52nd Congressional District) has endorsed the projects.

Needless to say, I have serious concerns of the overall impact to 4x4 recreation with the proposed project. When that project is coupled with the Fry Mtn Wind Energy proposal, most of Johnson Valley is gone.

So, over the next couple of hours, I will be assembling an "action plan" and posting it.

Stay tuned.......

(BTW, CA4WDC and BRC appear to be the only organizations concerned about this issue.)

[kf6zpl]

Please see thread:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=663800

[wngrog]

Now, if I know the Marine Corps...and after 19 years I'd like to think I do...I'd be willing to bet vital parts of my anatomy that the Johnson Valley course of action is NOT the only one on the table.

Thank you for your service. Your words are very important.

Hammer Hog, that is what I was thinking. Looking at the remoteness of the NE side of 29 Palms, that looks like a much more feasable place to expand.

[YJ Bill]

There's a hell of a lot of desert in the southwest that's not right next to LA, If a bigger base is needed it needs to go somewhere else, I think We're all tired of the offroader getting screwed out of roads, trails, and open areas.



I'm stationed here NOW; and the land is DEFINATELY needed.

[darnplumber]

I personally had a discussion with Brig. General Speis the head hot dog at the base about this after he addressed the Joshua Tree MAC last month. This is possible! Here's what he said. The Marine base is looking into expansion. They are looking at proposed areas in each direction of the base's perimeter and have yet to determine which area will be most advantagious. However, the area to the East and North (Johnson Valley is to the West) would be least affected. But parts of our Johnson Valley are on the consideration list. I also am in discussions with the Brig. Generial's Chief Execuitive Assistant Jim Ricker on other BIA matters and sit on the "Open Space Commitee" with him and have expressed my concerns about Johnson Valley and he knows of its importance to me.
Here's the deal guys....We ALL ...each one of us needs to make your voice politely and respectfully heard. Express that the Johnson Valley Off Road area is important to you and your family for camping and recreation. Express how important it is to go to this area and enjoy this desert area. Obviously, the smart guys on base and our government have no clue what rock crawling is but they do understand..."family, camping and off-road recreation for our children and our children's children"

[darnplumber]

I'm going to repeat a few rumors that I can't verify at this point, but here's what I've been getting from 3 different unrelated sources.

They want to move the San Diego Airport to Miramar.

They want to move Miramar to 29 Palms. That necessitates more area for the flight path and the associated logistics for it.

They mean to take most of the Johnson Valley OHV in the process and based on what I've heard, the southern line is the 247.

The big sticking point as of yet is the State's 1 for 1 replacement acreage in compensation and where that would be.

I cannot substantiate any of this yet as most of it is from overheard conversations.

The only reason I'm adding it to this thread is I've heard essentially the same things from 3 different sources that are non related.

I heard some of these same rumors and asked the Brig. General Speis...His reply was..."We are NOT closing Miramar" Miramar is a perminant air base and 29 Palms is mobile. These are words right from the top dog of the 29 Palms base's mouth to my ears.

[DOUG38S]

I'm a half hour outside of DC and work downtown regularly and will be on Capital hill in a couple of weeks. Someone tell me who to go see, give me an agenda and I'll see if I cannot get some meetings set up. As an outsider who just went to the Hammers for the first time last month I cannot get over the beauty of the place. If invited I'll plan on making the trip across the country to visit the place every year. I understand the need for our Marines/Army to have the best facilities possible to keep our country safe, I'm all for that. Maybe there is a way that we can find alternatives and start to talk about this.

[Albuquerque Jim]

I've never been to the Hammers, but it's on my list of to do's.

I just want to know how I can help. I know writing letters will help, can we get a list of who to address on this issue?

[Kurtuleas]

(BTW, CA4WDC and BRC appear to be the only organizations concerned about this issue.)

Add FOE to that John. One of the problems in the OHV community is that people only fight foe thier own backyards. Although we are just a "friends of" organization and not NEARLY as powerful as you big boys, we are willing to help in ANYWAY.

Weather or not the Marines need more area to train in, this would set a HORRIBLE precedent.

[Tech Tim]

After planning to visit the Hammers for a number of years, I finally got the chance during the KOH and I can't wait to go back, very cool place. I see coming down for a trip each year with the family, that'll be $1500-2000 spent in the Cali the economy, from fuel, to food, to other services each trip.

Could someone post up a list of names and addresses of the right people to send our concerns to?

Edit: Found it on the link that kf6zpl posted up: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=663800


From that link:

Johnson Valley Action Needed
Below is a list of members of the House Committee on Armed Services. These are the key congressional representatives that need to hear that you are opposed to Marine Corps encroachment in the Johnson Valley and Stoddard Wells Off Highway Vehicle Recreation Areas managed by the Bureau of Land Management in the southern California desert.

Letters and faxes can be sent to the House Committee on Armed Services address.

If one of the House Members is your elected representative, their wab site link is provided. Please go to their web page and leave them a message.

Talking points:

The recent Western Mojave Resource Management Plan identifies Johnson Valley and Stoddard Wells as recreation areas. There are no other options for that type of recreation in the southern California desert as all other areas have been designated wilderness or military reserve and off-limits to the public.

The loss of recreation would have a significant economic impact on the surrounding rural communities; an impact that would not be replaced by military activity.

The proposal calls for acquisition of private lands. That acquisition would remove private lands from the local property tax base causing serious economic impact in the surrounding rural communities; an impact that is not mitigated by increased government support to the local economy.

************************************

Committee on Armed Services
2120 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515

Phone: (202) 225-4151
Fax: (202) 225-9077

*******************

Ike Skelton, Missouri, Chairman
http://www.house.gov/skelton/

Duncan Hunter, California, Ranking Member
http://www.house.gov/hunter

John Spratt, South Carolina
http://www.house.gov/spratt/

Jim Saxton, New Jersey
http://www.house.gov/saxton

Solomon P. Ortiz, Texas
http://www.house.gov/ortiz

John M. McHugh, New York
http://www.house.gov/mchugh

Gene Taylor, Mississippi
http://www.house.gov/genetaylor

Terry Everett, Alabama
http://www.house.gov/everett

Neil Abercrombie, Hawaii
http://www.house.gov/abercrombie/

Roscoe G. Bartlett, Maryland
http://www.house.gov/bartlett/

Silvestre Reyes, Texas
http://www.house.gov/reyes

Buck McKeon, California
http://mckeon.house.gov/

Vic Snyder, Arkansas


Mac Thornberry, Texas
http://www.house.gov/thornberry/

Adam Smith, Washington
http://www.house.gov/adamsmith/

Walter B. Jones, North Carolina
http://www.house.gov/jones/

Loretta Sanchez, California
http://www.lorettasanchez.house.gov/

Robin Hayes, North Carolina
http://www.house.gov/hayes/

Mike McIntyre, North Carolina
http://www.house.gov/mcintyre/

W. Todd Akin, Missouri
http://www.house.gov/akin/

Ellen O. Tauscher, California
http://www.house.gov/tauscher/

J. Randy Forbes, Virginia
http://www.house.gov/forbes

Robert A. Brady, Pennsylvania
http://www.house.gov/robertbrady

Jeff Miller, Florida
http://www.house.gov/jeffmiller/

Robert Andrews, New Jersey
http://www.house.gov/andrews/

Joe Wilson, South Carolina
http://www.house.gov/joewilson/

Susan A. Davis, California
http://www.house.gov/susandavis/

Frank A. LoBiondo, New Jersey
http://www.house.gov/lobiondo/

Rick Larsen, Washington
http://www.house.gov/larsen

Tom Cole, Oklahoma
http://www.house.gov/cole/

Jim Cooper, Tennessee
http://www.house.gov/cooper/

Rob Bishop, Utah
http://www.house.gov/robbishop/

Jim Marshall, Georgia
http://www.house.gov/marshall/

Michael Turner, Ohio
http://www.house.gov/miketurner/

Madeleine Z. Bordallo, Guam
http://www.house.gov/bordallo/

John Kline, Minnesota
http://www.house.gov/kline/

Mark Udall, Colorado
http://markudall.house.gov/HoR/CO02/Home.htm

Candice S. Miller, Michigan
http://www.house.gov/candicemiller/

Dan Boren, Oklahoma
http://www.house.gov/boren/

Phil Gingrey, Georgia
http://gingrey.house.gov/

Brad Ellsworth, Indiana
http://ellsworth.house.gov/

Mike Rogers, Alabama
http://www.house.gov/mike-rogers/

Nancy Boyda, Kansas
http://boyda.house.gov/

Trent Franks, Arizona
http://www.house.gov/franks/

Patrick Murphy, Pennsylvania
http://patrickmurphy.house.gov/

Bill Shuster, Pennsylvania
http://www.house.gov/shuster/

Hank Johnson, Georgia
http://hankjohnson.house.gov/

Thelma Drake, Virginia
http://drake.house.gov/

Carol Shea-Porter, New Hampshire
http://shea-porter.house.gov/

Cathy McMorris Rodgers, Washington
http://www.mcmorris.house.gov/

Joe Courtney, Connecticut
http://courtney.house.gov/

Michael Conaway, Texas
http://conaway.house.gov/

David Loebsack, Iowa
http://loebsack.house.gov/

Geoff Davis, Kentucky
http://www.house.gov/geoffdavis/

Kirsten Gillibrand, New York
http://gillibrand.house.gov/

Doug Lamborn, Colorado
http://lamborn.house.gov/

Joe Sestak, Pennsylvania
http://sestak.house.gov/

Gabrielle Giffords, Arizona
http://giffords.house.gov/

Niki Tsongas, Massachusetts


Elijah Cummings, Maryland
http://www.house.gov/cummings

Kendrick Meek, Florida
http://kendrickmeek.house.gov/

Kathy Castor, Florida
http://castor.house.gov/

[mrblaine]

Does anyone know about the repercussions this would have to all the mining claims and stakes that are in JV?Several of them are working mines based on the growing piles of tailings from at least one and the growing pile of equipment at another.

Would they just be booted or bought out?

[kf6zpl]

Does anyone know about the repercussions this would have to all the mining claims and stakes that are in JV?Several of them are working mines based on the growing piles of tailings from at least one and the growing pile of equipment at another.

Would they just be booted or bought out?

The sequence of events is this:
1. A feasibility study will be done to determine if the area meets the requirements. (It appears this has been done.)
2. An environmental impact study will be done to determine if impact of the proposed action.
3. IF the action of converting the public lands to military reservation are selected, there will be a "mineral withdrawal" issued. That action will prohibit continued (or new) mining activity in the area.
4. The area would be closed to public access.

I would venture to say that loss of the mining claims would not be compensated unless the claim was patented.

[Mustard Dog]

Would they just be booted or bought out?

They would probably be bought out, just like all the ones Fienstiens husband had in Mojave when she pused to make it a preserve:mad3:

[mrblaine]

The sequence of events is this:
1. A feasibility study will be done to determine if the area meets the requirements. (It appears this has been done.)
2. An environmental impact study will be done to determine if impact of the proposed action.
3. IF the action of converting the public lands to military reservation are selected, there will be a "mineral withdrawal" issued. That action will prohibit continued (or new) mining activity in the area.
4. The area would be closed to public access.

I would venture to say that loss of the mining claims would not be compensated unless the claim was patented.

My thought was that maybe the mine owners might not like having to quit their operations and enlisting them, if a way could be found to contact them, to voice their concerns might not be a bad idea.

I chatted at length with a couple of them we ran across out there a couple of years back and they told us the entire area is staked and claimed.

The mine on the backside where the exit road for Wrecking/Claw intersects the main road, mines Platinum Group Metals according to them. I don't know how lucrative it is, but they keep adding equipment and more razor wire to the top of the fence around their compound.

[Kurtuleas]

The Hammers thread in chit-chat has been on the board for almost 30 minutes and only has 6 views. :shaking:

The apathy towards land closures in our community is HORRIBLE.

[lttlbddy]

The Hammers thread in chit-chat has been on the board for almost 30 minutes and only has 6 views. :shaking:

The apathy towards land closures in our community is HORRIBLE.

Well, I haven't seen that one yet. I've been busy sending emails out to Club members and posting this info on a few other sites.

[Albuquerque Jim]

Thanks for posting the list...letters sent.

[Jeepndel]

Don Amador, BlueRibbon Coalition Western Representative officially chimed in with the Marine Corps today. This was in cooperation with (and at the request of) Cal4, John Stewart, who is obviously also hugely involved in this issue. So we're in the game and folks are taking notice. The Hammers are important to our sport and to our access in general. BlueRibbon has made that clear already to the Marines.

This is only a start. The game has just begun. Make sure you're in the game as well. :smokin:

I think most of you know I am leading the charge to keep the Rubicon Trail alive and well. More importantly, I have a huge team of helpers that help me orchestrate this world-famous effort, like Randii (Ghandii), Doug Barr, Dennis Mayer, Cruzila, and many others including the Rubicon Trail Foundation and FOTR itself. Maybe the Hammers (JV, SV?) needs their own FOTR? Their own Trail Boss? Someone to lead the charge and keep us all posted and orchestrated in the right direction?

Is that you?

Del

[Paul Gagnon]

This is bad news. I've been thinking about buying a couple of acres in the area and start coming out there more often. I'm going to send an e-mail but I will also write a letter when I get back home. I think it will have a bigger impact if they receive something in the mail rather than another e-mail in their inbox.

[crash]

This really sucks--- Of all places to be in danger--someplace in the middle of the desert that is barely habital....

I am like a few here--travel a long distance just about every year and spend alot of $$$ along the way......

[cannoncrawler]

sent, thx

[Chass]

Thanks Dustin.:dustin:
The Blueribbon Coalition (BRC) needs our help to lobby in Congress etc. on Johnson Valley and many other land use issues. Please contribute if you can.;)
http://www.sharetrails.org/

Thanks for the link. I just joined the BRC and donated an additional $30 specifically for the Hammers fight. I don't know why I haven't joined sooner :shaking:

If any of you aren't BRC members, there is no better time.

Chass
ct

[cdub0451]

I know I live in Florida but I just sent an e-mail to my Rep. Jeff Miller. I have never been to the Hammers but it is definitely on my things to do list. Just remember, those of you who read this thread and don't take action, don't bitch when you don't have anywhere to wheel. This isn't just about the Hammers. It is about any place you like to wheel at. It is only a matter of time before the Government starts to encroach on land that may near you.

[Team Waggoner]

Bear in mind that I am repeating unsubstantiated rumors which is why I hadn't figured out how to post up until today when this other info became public.

Originally I heard that Pendleton was on the block for sale as well, but with the Marines needing to train as a landing force with the LCAC station there, that makes little sense.

The part that does make sense is moving Miramar to 29 Palms and moving San Diego Airport to Miramar to increase it's international capabilities for the larger jets.

That and the sale of Miramar would go a long way towards financing the whole thing if that even matters.

This made me sick to think that these trails would be closed. I agree that we need to voice our opinions to the people in charge. But I also know that if elect a Democrat we won't have to worry about any military funding - that is usually the first thing they cut. If anything they will close more military bases and there will be no need for training expansion. I just hope that our voices are heard and the trails stay open!
Lindsay

[StinkBug]

I hope Chris doesn't mind, I took the email he posted here, and added and edited it a bit, then sent to Jerry Lewis and my local rep. I'm not all that great at drafting these kinda letters, but it's important that we all make our voices heard.

Johnson Valley is the place where I learned what rockcrawling really is. It's the place that inspired my love for the sport, and the desert. Ever since my first trip there years ago I've been building vehicles for myself and many others specifically for that type of terrain. JV is a unique place, and it cant be replaced. I understand that the base needs to expand, but I dont see any reason they cant expand in another direction, AWAY from land that's loved and enjoyed by thousands, and known by millions.

[RedBullJeep]

My thought was that maybe the mine owners might not like having to quit their operations and enlisting them, if a way could be found to contact them, to voice their concerns might not be a bad idea.


This is a very important thing...Blaine, I remember chatting with someone who was in charge of defending mining rights and he explained there is money there to do some legal maneuvering. I don't remember who he was but I bet some of the guys from San Diego 4 Wheelers will.
I'll see what I can dig up because this guy was pretty good. I expect that John Steward and TDS guys know this man as well...damn, I wish I could remember his name, but he was going to partner up to help with TruckHaven, about the time Dois Webster passed away. John, do you possibly know who I'm referring to? If so, might he be of some help by partnering with the mining angle Blaine suggested?

[zuk1988]

I was there last year and loved it. Plan on going back again and again and will do any thing I can to help. I posted this link to the nw-wheeler board also to spread the word.I'm already a member of the BRC but I'm also planning to donate some of my 4x4 project money to help.

[jpfrk2001]

Just signed up for BRC and donated another 40 just for the hammers fight.

Thanks for the addresses on where and who to send letters to.

Subscribed

[Lance]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/landuse/USMCLandAcquisition.pdf

[camo]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/landuse/USMCLandAcquisition.pdf

Thanks to 4rnRrick for finding that 411

[Kurtuleas]

There is an idea in the works for a virtual RALLY to show our strength to the powers that be.

If you are interested in helping on this project: PLEASE PM ME! I will send you back the basic plan and we will discuss the feasability.

I need help and input from as many people as possible.

KURT

[shoyrtt]

Thanks Kurt!

Here is another possible angle that hasn't been discussed in here is involvement at the San Bernardino County, local level. Recently, the SB Board of Supervisors enacted an ordinance that prohibited OHV riding on PRIVATE land within the County in groups without a permit.http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=595160&highlight=San+Bernardino The County employed special code enforcement officers to drive around the Yucca Valley area to catch offenders and to direct people to ride their OHV in a dedicated OHV area, specifically: JOHNSON VALLEY! If Johnson Valley is eliminated, the County now has a huge code enforcement nightmare. The large majority of citizens in the High Desert area of the County who own OHVs now no longer have a place to operate them and remain in compliance.

I'll write a letter to my local Supervisor Dennis Hansberger, but a letter from one of our High Desert members would also help directed to Supervisor Brad Mitzelfelt. PM me for more info.;)

[Kurtuleas]

The rally is rolling...

PLEASE e-mail me instead of PM'ing me....


kurt@kurtuleas.com

[zcarczar]

Ok, I have letters going out in the morning to Senators Fienstein, and Boxer, Representatives Lewis and Hunter, and my local state senator and assembly member.

Shoyrtt, I'll be sending you a PM in a few, im from Apple Valley so I can send a letter from that area.

[Chris]

The rally is rolling...

PLEASE e-mail me instead of PM'ing me....


kurt@kurtuleas.comI'm in.

[Jeepndel]

Thanks to all of you joining up with BlueRibbon Coalition. That IS what it takes. Get in the game by joining those groups that can and will help you in keeping all our trails open as best we can.

Del

[Never Monday]

Can someone make a list of where leters need to go to. I'll start reposting it on boards in the SE. We appreciate the help we've gotten with our fight for Tellico. It's again time to return the favor. I gotta get back to JV.

[shoyrtt]

A different take by the crowd at Thumper Talk: http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=609908

The District 37 thread is also informative. We need to join forces with ALL of the interested parties. ;)

Here are a couple of informative posts:

" want to get a few things clear about this subject. First - Duncan Hunter has not taken a position either way on this project. I talked directly to someone in his office today. Duncan hopes that something can be worked out to accomodate both the OHV community and the military, Second - The meeting mentioned earlier in this thread is NOT to address the Johnson Valley OHV area. After meeting with the OHV folks in DC Duncan realized that he had not met with his local off-road constituents lately. Therefore, he asked his staff to schedule a meeting in his district to talk about any issues the off-roaders in his district have.

That's it for me.

Meg"

"I talked to the congressmans office today, he said the meeting will be in El Cajoin on March 22, thats the day befor Easter. Thats all I know for now, will let you know more as soon as I know."

[RedBullJeep]

That means the meeting is the same day as Big Saturday in Moab...great...looks like I'll be missing it. I sure hope i can get some time with him before i leave for Moab!

[Jeepndel]

I'm bascially a pretty simple guy. For me, *not taking a position* is not the same thing as KNOWING something and not passing along the info to those most affected -- and that goes for leaders in a sport and as well as politicians. We've been told by a reliable source that these type of military expansions take a few years to even get to this point with politicians, congressional committees, etc. involved, early on, all along.

So I'm not real excited to put my name next to someone who with held something from me that might be so important as to close the Hammers. I need more facts before I can make a final decision on this one...but I'm nervous on this one. I'm looking forward to folks like Don Amador and John Stewart getting to the real bottom of this.

Del

[Kurtuleas]

Look for a very important announcement from Pirate on this issue VERY soon.

We have something in the works. :D

[mrblaine]

Thanks Kurt!

Here is another possible angle that hasn't been discussed in here is involvement at the San Bernardino County, local level. Recently, the SB Board of Supervisors enacted an ordinance that prohibited OHV riding on PRIVATE land within the County in groups without a permit.http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=595160&highlight=San+Bernardino The County employed special code enforcement officers to drive around the Yucca Valley area to catch offenders and to direct people to ride their OHV in a dedicated OHV area, specifically: JOHNSON VALLEY! If Johnson Valley is eliminated, the County now has a huge code enforcement nightmare. The large majority of citizens in the High Desert area of the County who own OHVs now no longer have a place to operate them and remain in compliance.

I'll write a letter to my local Supervisor Dennis Hansberger, but a letter from one of our High Desert members would also help directed to Supervisor Brad Mitzelfelt. PM me for more info.;)

I've been in contact today with one of the members of the steering committee for this organization.

http://www.orvwatch.com/pages/about_us.html

He was most responsive to our plight and said that they absolutely want to keep JV open and he will bring up the situation at their weekly meeting. He wants to start putting together a game plan within the ranks to try and convince the USMC that JV should stay open if for no other reason that to aid in the enforcement and redirect of outlaw ORV users in and around the desert towns out there.

He was very disturbed that I was the first he had heard of this.

[RedBullJeep]

So I'm not real excited to put my name next to someone who with held something from me that might be so important as to close the Hammers.

Del...at this point this situation has no place for pride/politics/right or wrong...the only place is standing beside each other, even if the one standing next to you isn't a friend. We need EVERYONE.

I fully understand where you are coming from, but right now, lets put this aside...we can spend time on figuring the real chain of events and then laying of blame later.

[Hammer Hog]

The ball is rolling here in Yucca Valley.

I know a guy that runs a local radio station here, and he's got very good connections to the base.

I wrote him a emal last night and he's all over it.

Here is what he replied:

Steve,

Got some more information.. Headquarters Marine Corps in Washington is looking at the situation and a partial annexation of a small portion of the OHV area is only among some of the options being considered at this time (including leaving it as it is). I finally got the name of the Marine officer in charge and will continue digging.


Gary


Here's a second reply after I asked if his source would be a good avenue for letters:


Steve,
Just got off the phone with the officer in charge of the expansion at HQ Marine Corps. She indicated that there are MANY options and that it is all "Pre-decisional" at this time. I have asked her to provide me with the specific geographical options so we can see if Johnson Valley is even actually being considered.

In my discussions with the Commanding General, he indicated that the expansion would be to the south and east (Totally on the other side of the base from Johnson Valley).

I suspect the rumor mill may have blown this out of proportion but we will continue pressing until we have a actual determination.

It is way to early to send any letters, it may well be a moot point.

Gary



I will post more as it comes...

[ErikB]

Those answers sound to me like politicians ways of down-playing the situation. Its not going to happen for a few years anyway, so they can lead us along with that carrot until the heat dies down and then let it happen... without "actually" lying about it in the mean time.

[Hammer Hog]

Those answers sound to me like politicians ways of down-playing the situation. Its not going to happen for a few years anyway, so they can lead us along with that carrot until the heat dies down and then let it happen... without "actually" lying about it in the mean time.



You are right.
I by no means intend to down-play this threat. I'm just passing info as I get it.

We need to continue to press on in this effort nonetheless.
However, we must be very diligent in how we go about it.
We are the under-dogs here. What I mean by that is, us OHV folks are not looked at very seriously by most. It's hard to shake the fact that we have idiots out there that screw it up for the rest of us. They general population thinks we're rebels without a cause. I say that from local experience in my own home town. We are constantly being pushed out. It is now illegal to do any off-road activities in our city limits as well as this area of San Bernardino County unless we are in designated areas such as the JV OHV area.

We need to convey key words into our letters. Family Recreation is probably the most important key word there is. Second to that may be the financial revenues lost to local towns, etc.

So lets be smart on how, and who we write to. We do have some time on our hands. So lets use it wisely.

[Eezee]

My name's Mike. Chuck Shaner and I built most of the Hammer trails since 1994. Built with the help of a few other Victor Valley Four Wheelers. We located these canyons on our topo map and on foot and then committed thousands of man hours to push them through knowing full well that our investment would be safe since we had chosen a sanctuary where you could drive whatever you want wherever you want. It would be criminal to take it away from us, especially in light of so many closures. While our sport is being persecuted and legislated off the land we own, we find a place to legally call home and the government wants to take it away.
We can't let it go, not even Outer Limits. JV is hardcore heaven as it is also home to the evolution of 4 wheeling. There is no replacement. We hope the equipment manufacturers realize this too.
I don't have the answer but hopefully BRC does and that's why VV4W and many others donate to them regularly. Congrats to PBB for helping get the word out.

[Jeepndel]

I don't have the answer but hopefully BRC does and that's why VV4W and many others donate to them regularly. Congrats to PBB for helping get the word out.

BRC and Cal4 are working together on this one, big time. More importantly, I think, is that we (you) are working hard on this issue and involved right now. Here and now. :p That is critical to saving the Hammers.

I suggest:
Get on board with the Hammers Virtual Rally.
Get on board with joining those organizations such as BlueRibbon and Cal4 that will need to be solvent during all this.
Get your pen out and be ready to write that letter.
Get the word out and tell your friends and family to help save the Hammers.

We "got" us a fight. More importantly, I think we have an Army too!

Del

[shoyrtt]

Thank you Mike, Chuck and all of the VV 4 Wheelers for all of the work you and your club has put into making the Hammers what they are today!:cool2:

Thank you Del for your guidance and support for the SoCal crowd.:)

FYI and an update to my earlier posts: I had a conversation with my contact in Washington DC on this issue today. He told me that members of the House Armed Services Committee are being inundated with calls and letters from the off-road community on Johnson Valley. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

I am suggesting that we also let the 4X4 and off-road business community know about the proposed expansion. Their letters to their representatives on the potential loss of revenue caused by public land closures such as Johnson Valley might also be persuasive.:)

[RedBullJeep]

MrBlaine came up with this excellent idea...What about contacting some people high up in the RV industry? They have a lot to lose if you consider how many of us have campers/RV's/Trailers/toyboxes, for the sole purpose of allowing us to persue our passion. They have a very large and effective lobby don't they?

Anyone in or know someone in that indusrty???

[toywthbdydmge]

I just finished writing to my local congressman hope this helps

[RedBullJeep]

Earlier, someone poster something similar to the following:

hey folks, I have been working on this for a few weeks.

Just got info town hall meeting is set for 23rd of this month
in El Cajon

Saturday Easter weekend

I will have more details this week

Thanks
Wayne Nosala

For more info,
Follow this link

http://www.district37ama.org/forums/...ad.php?t=20012

There has been a correction...Wayne has just written on Race Dezert that the Johnson Valley issue is NOT on the agenda for that meeting.






.

[TheTonka]

I have seen posted on this that they are doing a usage study. What would be the most effective way to influence this study. I may not have a crawler right now but I have no problem running up to the lake bed and hanging out for a couple of days, after all its like 2 hours door to dirt for me.

Any thoughts, trips, events planned in the near future that could help?

[Kurtuleas]

MrBlaine came up with this excellent idea...What about contacting some people high up in the RV industry? They have a lot to lose if you consider how many of us have campers/RV's/Trailers/toyboxes, for the sole purpose of allowing us to persue our passion. They have a very large and effective lobby don't they?

Anyone in or know someone in that indusrty???

The first press release will go out later today, but if someone could take a leadership role here and find me e-mail addys of as many major RV comapines as possible to send it to....that would be MUCH appricated!

[Albuquerque Jim]

MrBlaine came up with this excellent idea...What about contacting some people high up in the RV industry? They have a lot to lose if you consider how many of us have campers/RV's/Trailers/toyboxes, for the sole purpose of allowing us to persue our passion. They have a very large and effective lobby don't they?

Anyone in or know someone in that indusrty???


Just throwin' this out there...

If we are going to reach out to the RV industry, what about the 4x4 parts industry (Tires, Wheels, Shocks, Lockers, Etc.)? I know many of you guys are sponsored, get the sponsors involoved.

[RockJeep92504]

MrBlaine came up with this excellent idea...What about contacting some people high up in the RV industry? They have a lot to lose if you consider how many of us have campers/RV's/Trailers/toyboxes, for the sole purpose of allowing us to pursue our passion. They have a very large and effective lobby don't they?

Anyone in or know someone in that industry???
This Idea has been used before. They have helped us out really well with the American sand association fighting the closures in glamis.

[JR]

I have a friend who is a career Marine stationed at the 29 Palms Marine base. With out giving his identity away, I asked him what he knows about the situation:

"They are looking to expand the borders to provide a buffer zone so that
they can make full use of the training areas (which run right up to the
current boundaries). This is just in the planning stages but as far as
I know they plan on doing it by purchasing private property. I
seriously doubt the Sate of CA is going to give up any land as that
would take major negotiations between State and Federal govt's and would
in all probability take YEARS to work something like that out. Also
they don't do much training over on that side of the Base and would more
then likely expand north and east. I know they have looked at trying to
make a link between 29 and Ft Irwin on several occasions in the past."


I wasn't sure if I should post this, but it is information from what I believe, is a viable source.

[kf6zpl]

Johnson Valley is not state land; it is federal land under management of BLM.

[hamer]

Something that can be learned from or maybe to demonstrate what we're up against. This is what the Federal Goverment is capable of.
http://www.pinoncanyon.com/
I'm signing up for the BRC and whatever else I can do.

[TheTonka]

Does anyone have any idea on how they do the usage survey?

[shoyrtt]

Maybe this UCR study is being considered to keep things as is in the Lucerne Valley / Joshua Tree / Fry Mountain area?


http://www.sbsun.com/sanbernardino/ci_8516602 (http://www.sbsun.com/sanbernardino/ci_8516602)

[TheTonka]

Maybe this UCR study is being considered to keep things as is in the Lucerne Valley / Joshua Tree / Fry Mountain area?


http://www.sbsun.com/sanbernardino/ci_8516602 (http://www.sbsun.com/sanbernardino/ci_8516602)

What the fawk is desert pavement??? :shaking: Sounds like more BS junk science just like usual.

[Hammer Hog]

Here's a rediculis quote from that article:


The study concluded that a vast amount of nitrate lies close to the surface of the desert soil and is vulnerable to erosion by rain and wind.

"It's only when you disrupt it, that it releases dust," Graham said. "This stuff can blow a long way. If it blew into high alpine lakes in the Rocky Mountains or the Sierra Nevada, it could blow into pristine water."

If the coarse, tightly packed desert surface is disturbed, nitrate could contaminate water systems, above and below ground.

"If you started watering it a lot, you could leach nitrate into the groundwater," Graham said. "There are other health issues associated with that."

High levels of nitrate in drinking water have been associated with serious health issues, such as methaemoglobinaemia, ................bla,bla,bla......

.....
"We can't just go out there and start willy-nilly digging up desert pavement," he said.

Sickman said the finding is astonishing because it shows there is an "immense store" of nitrogen in the desert, far more than scientists previously estimated.

"In California we have a problem with nitrogen in precipitation," he said. "As we continue to extend Los Angeles farther and farther into the desert, and as we start digging up these soils, we are potentially putting another source of nitrogen in the atmosphere."



Then I suggest they look toward the Military bases. They bomb the heck out there...constantly! Way more dust than what you will find from all the desert rural dirt road traffic put together. Just what we need, another useless study. Seems like the more degrees these folks get, the stupider they become. What ever happened to common sense?

[shoyrtt]

Then I suggest they look toward the Military bases. They bomb the heck out there...constantly! Way more dust than what you will find from all the desert rural dirt road traffic put together. Just what we need, another useless study. Seems like the more degrees these folks get, the stupider they become. What ever happened to common sense?

Maybe, again just maybe a study like this is enough to keep things as is. The expansion and bombing of the "desert pavement" causes too many problems. If the military needs to expand or train, the massive areas at Ft. Irwin or China Lake don't have the same nitrate issues.

[Hammer Hog]

Maybe, again just maybe a study like this is enough to keep things as is. The expansion and bombing of the "desert pavement" causes too many problems. If the military needs to expand or train, the massive areas at Ft. Irwin or China Lake don't have the same nitrate issues.

Or better yet,
Let them train in the middle east... :eek: :laughing:

[83kingcab]

arn't the marines susposed to go play in the water or something? why do they want to take over the desert?

[trousertrout666]

arn't the marines susposed to go play in the water or something? why do they want to take over the desert?

lol. I'm in anti-terror for the Coast Guard and we even have people in the desert overseas. Not all wars are fought in the water. But it's not like the Marine Corps needs all that extra ground at JV to play around in.:mad3:

[83kingcab]

i have friends in the marines and i tell them that all the time just to see them get all bent out of shape. =)

[Jeepndel]

We need to show our strength by helping the Marines find SOMEPLACE ELSE to do their expansion and training. We need to save our Hammers for motorized recreation -- and commit to helping the bases expand in a different direction or different place.

Del

[oldchecker]

As a district 37 desert racer I feel it is vital to our well being as Americans to keep JV open for recreation.

[bray]

No,I haven't read through this whole thread. I heard about a week ago that the military (marines) were gonna take over this erea. On the 11th, I went into the hospital with a kidney stone (chronic problem) and come out finding this. Yes, I'm from Alabama but have been saving for 4 years to get out west and wheel since I built my rig. On top of that get a trailer and a tow truck. And also saving enough to go visit a few friends I've gotten to know on this forum and others as well. Can we negotiate with the military to share the land (how can they climb on the rocks and where in any other country simulate this?) Or what political direction do I need to take to help prevent this? Sorry if it's already been said. I haven't felt too good lately. Thanks!

[coondogger]

I assure you all that the "Marines" are not the ones that are choosing this land for there own use. The politicians and upper government officials will pick/choose and allot funds for lands that are used for training. It's not like the Marines can take over a piece of property. Just because there is a Marine Corps base near by doesn't mean it's the Marines fault. Want to blame someone? Blame the DOD (Department of Defense) Not the Marines. Now, remember who it is that keeps everyone safe, keeps a free nation, and allows us to have the freedoms and freedom of speech that we all love to preach about.

I hope the "Hammers" stays open. I have never wheel'd there, but I thinks it's an awesome place. If the military gets the land....... I doubt they will share. I have been in the Marine Corps for 10 years and I cannot even wheel on the tank trails here on the east coast.

I wish you all the best of luck keeping it open.

[NoBrainR]

I find it odd that the Military / Government wants to expand in such a populated and popular area. The Feds control over 85% of the land here in Nevada. With Nellis and Fallon Bases and all the test ranges they have here already, it's not like they aren't established here already. If you've ever driven across Nevada, then you've seen how much empty space there is here.

With that in mind, kind of makes me wonder if there aren't other "motivators" behind the scenes to lock the gates to popular areas.

[Hammer Hog]

First off, the Marines have not even come close to taking over the Hammers.
It will take years...if it even happens.

This whole thing is way into the early stages and they have said they are going to expand the base and will be looking at acquiring some of the surrounding land...including the remote POSSIBILITY of the Johnson Valley OHV area. But it's been learned that most of the expansion will be to the north and east favoring the base. Johnson Valley stands a very remote chance of being grabbed.

But one good thing, we all came out in force early on to show that they will have resistance when and if they do consider Johnson Valley.

So far locally, it's been said through the local media that some of the rumors got way out of control and this whole thing is way premature. However I do believe it was very timely considering that they now know...we know.

[Propane]

I don't know why the military doesn't incorporate some of our rockcrawler tech into their arsenal.

[Chris]

So far locally, it's been said through the local media that some of the rumors got way out of control and this whole thing is way premature. I have heard the same but this I'll add. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[Hammer Hog]

I have heard the same but this I'll add. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

You are absolutely correct :smokin:

[coondogger]

I got this email today at work from ???????????????????????????????????????







Off-roaders taking on the Marines
By Michael Gardner

Enthusiasts prize site of potential training ground

SACRAMENTO - California's off-road riders have launched an aggressive
campaign to oppose any move by the Marines to annex Johnson Valley, a
nationally acclaimed high-desert recreation area on the perimeter of an
important military base at Twentynine Palms.

The potential expansion of the battlefield training ground for troops being
deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan has sparked a conflict between the
traditionally conservative off-road community and the military.

It also may pressure Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Alpine, a former Army Ranger and
outspoken advocate for the military, to choose between his loyalties to the
Marine Corps and to longtime off-road allies alarmed over shrinking legal
places to ride.

"We're pretty devastated," said Ed Stovin, president of the San Diego
Off-Road Coalition. "It's hard to fight national security when you're at
war, but you sure hate to lose the area."

Stovin said he hopes the off-road community can work with Hunter on a
compromise, perhaps pushing the Marines to consider taking land not used for
off-roading. "He's a good friend of ours," Stovin said.

Hunter has not taken sides, said Joe Kasper, a spokesman. "Congressman
Hunter supports both the interests of the off-roading community and the
potential expansion of the facility to better simulate and prepare our
Marines for conditions in Iraq and Afghanistan," Kasper said.

Hunter plans to address the issue at a meeting with off-road enthusiasts
March 22.

Off-roading is a booming sport, with nearly 1 million vehicles registered in
California to take to the terrain. About 4 million people ride in state
parks set aside for that use, and countless others use federal land.

Off-road advocates say they are squeezed for space by urban demand and
environmental-based restrictions.

Growing more alarmed as word spread of the possible land requisition by the
Marines, off-roaders this week mounted a four-hour "virtual rally" over the
Internet in a show of solidarity. By their count, there were 1,495 messages
posted and 33,976 page views within four hours.

Many posts carried a common theme: admiration for troops, hopes that they
return home safely and support for the military - but near-unanimous
opposition to turning the valley over to the Marines.

"The Marine Corps has a need, but the off-road community also has needs and
rights to enjoy and recreate in this well-established off-highway vehicle
area," Philip Hall of National City wrote.

"If this land were unused and dormant, it would be a different situation all
together," Hall's post continued. "But Johnson Valley OHV area already has a
purpose and is owned by thousands of tax-paying citizens like myself who are
not willing to sacrifice such a pristine locale to be turned into a practice
war ground."

The Marine Corps has issued a statement confirming that it is looking to
expand training facilities, but it says no decision has been reached and
urges patience.

"This process of simply figuring out what land the base might actually need
to meet the Marine Corps training requirements and how it affects other
interests could take anywhere from three to five years," said Jim Ricker,
assistant chief of staff at the Twentynine Palms base.

The statement continued: "It is imperative that the Marines receive the most
realistic training before deploying into a combat environment that demands
split second life or death decisions."

The 140,000-acre off-highway vehicle area, located southeast of Barstow in
San Bernardino County, also is home to the federally protected desert
tortoise, a fact that could provoke strident opposition from
environmentalists.

Protecting the tortoise was a key issue when the Army expanded training
facilities near Fort Irwin a few years ago.

Johnson Valley is under the supervision of the U.S. Bureau of Land
Management. Mike Pool, California's BLM director, is expected to attend
Hunter's March 22 meeting with off-road enthusiasts.

John Dearing, a BLM spokesman, said the military followed a regular process
before taking other federal lands.

"We have not yet received an application from the Marines," said Dearing,
referring specific questions about Johnson Valley to the military.

The Marine Corps said it plans to prepare an environmental review of
alternatives once a decision is made. It promises full disclosure and public
participation.

Johnson Valley is nationally known as "the Hammers" - one of the best
four-wheeling, boulder-hopping areas in the country, off-roaders say.

The off-roading mecca draws thousands every year to numerous organized
events, including rock-racing, rock-crawling and a "King of the Hammers"
championship each February. The area's landscape is dotted with Joshua
trees, steep red-rock mountains and sandy washes.

Losing the Hammers, one Internet posting read, "would be like baseball
losing Wrigley Field or golf losing Augusta."

[Paul Gagnon]

So far locally, it's been said through the local media that some of the rumors got way out of control and this whole thing is way premature. However I do believe it was very timely considering that they now know...we know.

It most definitely is not premature. If we waited until the decision was made to voice our concern it would be too late. The time to act is now, in the very early planning stages.

[Hammer Hog]

I was only quoting the local media.
I agree with you!

[Chass]

I got this email today at work from ???????????????????????????????????????

Off-roaders taking on the Marines
By Michael Gardner

Thats a great article. I found it here as well.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080314/news_1m14offroad.html

Looks like Michael Gardner writes for The San Diego Union-Tribune.

I like his article. It seemed very neutral and represented us well.

I also found this looking for that article.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2008/03/marine_offroad_031408/

As was said before, they know we're serious now.

Chass
ct

[Mustard Dog]

As was said before, they know we're serious now.

Chass
ct

A common theme I've been seeing in this deal is that the Marines had no idea how important JV is, they just considered in another piece of desert wasteland. Hopefully now that they see this is not the case it will make a difference in thire decisions.