Plan to Save the Hammers (from Del)

[Jeepndel]

I'd like to step up and take our planning on this fight to save the Hammers one more level up. BlueRibbon helps me out a bit financially to help save our trails, and we can't think of another better bunch of trails than the Hammers to save. We've got the Rubicon well handled and a heck of a team to keep it going.

So here's the plan I've been able to gather from all these posts -- and you are FREE to wham bam thank you Ma'm, take this from my hands and take over if you are the person to lead this charge, or take a piece of it. :smokin:

Until I hear otherwise, I'll lay out a basic concept and we'll go from there -- or make adjustments in our course.

First, get on board with Kurt's rally and sign up with him to help. Do it. He needs help to pull this off. Kurt, and Pirate4x4 are making a HUGE sacrifice and offer of help by doing this. So let's help.

Second, this is the back yard of the Tin Benders (and maybe some clubs I don't know about), but you local users, frequent users, need to bless this tentative plan. Yup, bless it or shoot it down, but chime in. Let's have some unity, even if it ain't perfect.

Third, spread the word (rally, this new plan, etc.) as fast as your fingers will move. Let's build an Army with which we can help the Marines find someplace else for their expansion.

Fourth, contain your anger if you got it -- :D -- and channel it to the cause. And for sure don't give up on us. WE need every soldier in this fight.

Fifth, join up with BlueRibbon Coalition (that's how you can support me doing this and helping the overall cause) and Cal4 and United if you can. When you join BRC, tell them it's because of our work here to save the Hammers.

Last, post up here what you can do or what else you can do to help us Save the Hammers. (note, we'll keep the rally talk on the rally forums).


These are just the first steps of our plan. I do this a lot and I have done it in other places around the country, most particularly on the Rubicon -- so I know what I'm doing. All I need is YOU to be on the team. Together, we can support our troops while at the same time SAVE our HAmmers.

Del

[Kurtuleas]

Thanks Del..

Look everyone..

I know sometimes people question our organizations (Hell, I use to)

But I can Guaren-damn-T you that Del (BRC) and John Stewart (Cal4wheel) are working their ever-lovin asses off for us...esp on this Hammers situation.

I talk to them on almost a daily basis in one way or another...

How much have you spent on your own rig???

How much have you given your Organizations???

Hey, I am broke too....shit, I just got layed off today.

But these organizations need our $$ and support.

PLEASE join them and donate what you can.

Kurt

[RustyNailJustin]

- PMed Kurt to help with whatever he need.
-Spreading the word, far and wide :D
-Renewing my BRC.

Thanks you guys for getting so proactive in this. I am feeling very positive we will have a good final outcome! :D

[Wayne_Nosala]

Hey folks

If I may, I would like to chime in here.

There are a couple of other Organizations working this
Issue and please let’s not leave anyone out of the loop

CORVA (California Off Road Vehicle association) Has been
on this for a few weeks.



District37 AMA obviously, They have a large stake in this area
regarding events and such.


Friends of Giant Rock, Im hoping some here have heard of them,
they have been fighting this unfair ordinance 3973 in San Bernardino
County, they have made some impressive moves in SB county and
have been doing some clean ups and such in JV.

I will tell ya, These guys live and breathe JV, they live there, they
will be an important part of this when push comes to shove.

SDORC San Diego Off Road Coalition. Yep San Diego, But Ed Stovin
President can be an asset to have on our side regarding access
to Congressman Duncan Hunter

ASA also may be an asset to San Diego friendlies

Meg at ORBA, Im sure we can call on ORBA to rally support from the
OHV business community



I hate to say it, but someone posted here that they had contacted a rep
From COW (Community ORV watch) a pretty rabid anti ohv ORG, but looks like
we may be able to work with these folks, and others. The last thing they
want Is 1000s of displaced OHVs in their back yard. It appears they actually
will get behind us.

Notably absent is the Buggy/Truck racing community make up of
MDR and MORE series. I have been on these guys butts to get a
legal fund together or at least an ORG of some sort to post a stake
at the table when something like this comes down the pipe.

Maybe this will finally wake these guys up and become physically involved.

I did a Google search on this subject and am amazed how fast this
thing has shot though the community and the many message
boards that support OHV recreation.

I received the John Stuart invite to this rally via many different
Emails, I will try to get it posted on the CORVA site ASAP

You guys Rock! Keep up the good work!

Again, Emphasize, Use Johnson Valley!

Wayne Nosala

CORVA East Kern County Field Rep
Friends of Jawbone

[chvyhs]

Do we know if Ian and Jessie from Extreme 4x4 are aware of what's going on? Maybe they can give us some nation wide coverage.

Edit:
I just sent them an email with link to the on line rally.

[RustyNailJustin]

Do we know if Ian and Jessie from Extreme 4x4 are aware of what's going on? Maybe they can give us some nation wide coverage.

Edit:
I just sent them an email with link to the on line rally.

Not a bad idea. But I wonder if it can hapen in time?

[mrblaine]

Hey folks

If I may, I would like to chime in here.




I hate to say it, but someone posted here that they had contacted a rep
From COW (Community ORV watch) a pretty rabid anti ohv ORG, but looks like
we may be able to work with these folks, and others. The last thing they
want Is 1000s of displaced OHVs in their back yard. It appears they actually
will get behind us.



Wayne Nosala

CORVA East Kern County Field Rep
Friends of Jawbone

That was me and I've been in contact via phone with one of the members several times and he will show up at the rally to help with our perceptions of who they are, what they are about and why it's important to them that Johnson Valley remain open and intact in it's current form of access.

He and I are working very hard at finding a way to correct the OHV communitee's poor perception of them.

As I understand it, they are trying to stop Abuse in and around the Desert communities and have no issue with legal offroading like that which occurs in JV. They are also against resource damage in protected areas.

[Jeepndel]

The simplest thing to do about getting other organizations/groups involved, is just merely to send them emails and tell them of the rally and the Plan to Save the Hammers. :D That's in OUR plan -- to spread the word and include everyone we can.

Make sure you tell them to post up, spread the word, and let their members know of our effort. That's how this will work the best.

The key message is that this is not just about the Hammers; this is about our access to treasured OHV areas. The Hammers (JV and SV) represent our access.

Not many folks have seen this thread yet (beings it's Saturday night and most folks are out wheeling). But after Monday or so, we'll start lining out duties and more details.

Del

[Jeepndel]

After the weekend and more folks see this Plan to Save the Hammers, we'll move right into Part 2 -- details and duties. We'll be looking for Lieutentants (cute, military terms), Chiefs, whatever we end up calling them to help organize our Plan and get the responsibilities dished out to more folks.

IF YOU WANT A LEAD ROLE, be sure to step up here. We'll adapt your role to your interests and capabiltiies. For anyone who has taken my leadership course or the VLLS workshop, you obviously have a frree hand to choose about anything you want to do. :D

Some duties we'll be looking to delegate, include:
Logisitics, Team Leaders, Planning Team Members, Local Scouts, Mapping Dudes, Drivers (for tours or recons), and more as we move along.

Post up your thoughts. And post up your talents or strong suits we might be able to use.

Thanks, Del
Putting the hammer down on losing any more OHV ground...

[YJgirl]

Rallying the troops in Colorado. I'll see if I can round up additional volunteers to help out and will keep in touch with you and Kurt. Thanks Del & Kurt and Pirate4x4 for working so dilligently on this project in such a short time frame!!

[surveyboy]

After the weekend and more folks see this Plan to Save the Hammers, we'll move right into Part 2 -- details and duties. We'll be looking for Lieutentants (cute, military terms), Chiefs, whatever we end up calling them to help organize our Plan and get the responsibilities dished out to more folks.

IF YOU WANT A LEAD ROLE, be sure to step up here. We'll adapt your role to your interests and capabiltiies. For anyone who has taken my leadership course or the VLLS workshop, you obviously have a frree hand to choose about anything you want to do. :D

Some duties we'll be looking to delegate, include:
Logisitics, Team Leaders, Planning Team Members, Local Scouts, Mapping Dudes, Drivers (for tours or recons), and more as we move along.

Post up your thoughts. And post up your talents or strong suits we might be able to use.

Thanks, Del
Putting the hammer down on losing any more OHV ground...
i'd be able to help out with a seat and GPS mapping for things and as a driver for recon for anyone else that may need to get a on the ground look at things

[Kurtuleas]

IF YOU WANT A LEAD ROLE, be sure to step up here. We'll adapt your role to your interests and capabiltiies. For anyone who has taken my leadership course or the VLLS workshop, you obviously have a frree hand to choose about anything you want to do. :D
.

IN! Thanks for the chance! :D

Just tell me what you want me to do Del!

I would like to map out JV in that I have never been there....

[Jeepndel]

After the Rally (tomorrow), we'll know more of what we have to work with on this plan to save the Hammers. Then Kurt will do the post-rally press release and that will take some effort to spread it around. So we have a bit of work to do this week and next. We can all help spread the press release out.

Data collection and mapping will be two of our main jobs here real soon. We have to gather up all the maps, OHV routes, historical stuff we can and have it handy. VOLUNTEER:??? One job someone can grab right now would be our Historical Documentation Officer (or some such fancy title). Start collecting and filing (downloading, copying, etc.) all the maps, posts, etc. you can to build our data base of this area and its use.

WHO WANTS THE JOB? :smokin:
Del

[Jeepndel]

Two volunteer jobs we should fill right off the bat include the one mentioned above: Historical Documentation Officer

But we also need someone to step up and lay claim to being pretty knowledgeable about the various trails (locations, names, etc.).
We'll give that person a fancy title too: Trails Chief or Trails Team Leader.

Is this you? Step up, please.
thanks, Del

[randii]

Thanks for stepping up and providing a framework to encourage continuation of this forward drive, Del.

We're in the midst of a huge groundswell of support -- no single individual started it, and no single person is responsible for sustaining it, its massive strength is a result of its creation in so many places at once, much like we experienced on Rubicon back at the 'snow gate.' I know our hobby (and perhaps especially the Hammers) is filled with individuals doing their own thing, but we are a more effective lobby when working together en masse.... and this Virtual Rally should be a shining example of that.

Getting organized and keeping organized will be a challenge, but with such broad-based support and inspiration, I'm expecting great things! When we set our egos and issues aside and work together for common goals, we are UNBEATABLE.

Randii

[Chris]

I'd be happy to help with mapping, scouting, and giving a ride over any trail for someone who wants it. There's an awful lot of folks that are very knowledgeable about the trails but there a lot of new trails as well that have not been highly publicized.

[Chris]

Also, I had planned to go to Lucerne and talk to local business owners and maybe pass around a petition this last weekend but it did not work out. I still plan to do this some time in the next few weeks.

[pitchitpitchit]

JV is relatively in my back yard (3 to 4 hour drive with traffic). I have always been down for cleanups and work weekends (even for places much farther). I can do GPS trail mapping. I am not an expert on history in that area but I can certainly research it. I can be a good worker bee for other things too. I just want to offer my support.

Scott Van Dell

[pitchitpitchit]

I had another idea. Would a Friends of Johnson Valley (FOJV) listserver be useful? It would be like the FOTR listserver. I could look into setting one up if people though it would be useful. I already host several sites and email servers so it wouldnt be too much work. I would just need to find the listserver software. Let me know if this would be useful.

For that matter, I could host the FOJV website too...


Scott VanDell

[kf6zpl]

An overall "Friends of Johnson Vally" group is needed.

The focus should be dedicated to Johnson Valley.

A web site is needed to be central source of information about what is pending for Johnson Valley.

Go for it.....

[pitchitpitchit]

OK, I just purchased the fojv.org domain. It will take up to 24 hours to start resolving to my server. The address will be http://www.fojv.org. I will put up a "start" webpage but the site will need some content. Here is where I will need some help. Maybe you guys could give me some ideas.

I will also set up some email address as needed. I could set up JStewart@fojv.org ,DAlbright@fojv.org or KurtS@fojv.org for example. It can be whatever you want. You guys could access the email via IMAP or POP3 if you want. Those that want email addresses, let me know. I will have to set up usernames and passwords for you.

If for some reason you guys want to own the doman and control it on another server, I can transfer the ownership as well. I am open to whatever.

Scott Van Dell

[Chris]

Could I please get chris@fojv.org? Sign me up to do whatever is needed to help out as well.

Here's a good splash photo

358954

[pitchitpitchit]

Could I please get chris@fojv.org? Sign me up to do whatever is needed to help out as well.



Absolutely. PM me a username and password. Use a password that you don't use anywhere else since I would know what it is :D.

Anyone else that wants one, PM me.

Scott

[pitchitpitchit]

I have set up a VERY limited website. I am not a web developer so the style is less than flashy. If someone is skilled at web development and would like to work on this I can provide FTP access or FrontPage server access. Just let me know. Otherwise I will do my best and take care of it.

One thing that I could use help right away is on the wording for the Mission Statement. I have a very basic one in place right now but I think it could be better.

I could also use help with "About Friends of Johnson Valley" and "About Johnson Valley" pages. The "About Johnson Valley" should have tons of stuff about the Hammers including pictures and history of the Victor Valley club (and other involved in making the trails). I think it should also include the AMA/ Distric 37 stuff which I know little about. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Scott

[randii]

Regarding the subject of this post -- why do we need to save the Hammers from Del? :flipoff2: :laughing: :flipoff2:

Randii

[Wayne_Nosala]

Hello Folks
There needs to be continuity between new organizations and the ones who have some experience in this area. I firmly believe we need to ban together in this area. We would most certainly accomplish more in the long run.

There is an ORG called “Friends of Giant rock” that have been working JV issues for many years now. They have approx 150 members, they already have
established meeting venues, dates, times and local connections.

There is another ORG called “Friends of Stoddard Valley” that just formed, Im trying to get info on these guys. A rep made a post on D37 yesterday http://www.district37ama.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20312

I was asked by Jim Clements last night at the MORE event in Stoddard if I was attending their meeting this coming Thursday evening. I told him I had just heard about the ORG, I am still trying to get info out of them to see if they are serious. Otherwise, I will attend regardless.

If we could network with Friends of Johnson Valley or possibly consolidate between all these I think more would be accomplished. Seems to me, the more locals I talked to last night at the MORE contingency event, these particular locals have ties or contacts to the military bases. Very useful stuff to have, some of these local contacts could be as, or, more reliable than what the military wants us to hear.

D37, CORVA, BRC, and the 4x4 clubs as well should represent

Anything I else can do from here, let me know
Thanks
Wayne Nosala

[shoyrtt]

Thanks Wayne!

I believe we all agree we need to work together on this!:) I'll try to make the meeting in Barstow. Lets also try to to get these two ORGs to make it to the meeting in El Cajon on 3-22. ;) We should also see if we can schedule a town hall type meeting with Jerry Lewis.

Jim

Hello Folks
There needs to be continuity between new organizations and the ones who have some experience in this area. I firmly believe we need to ban together in this area. We would most certainly accomplish more in the long run.

There is an ORG called “Friends of Giant rock” that have been working JV issues for many years now. They have approx 150 members, they already have
established meeting venues, dates, times and local connections.

There is another ORG called “Friends of Stoddard Valley” that just formed, Im trying to get info on these guys. A rep made a post on D37 yesterday http://www.district37ama.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20312

I was asked by Jim Clements last night at the MORE event in Stoddard if I was attending their meeting this coming Thursday evening. I told him I had just heard about the ORG, I am still trying to get info out of them to see if they are serious. Otherwise, I will attend regardless.

If we could network with Friends of Johnson Valley or possibly consolidate between all these I think more would be accomplished. Seems to me, the more locals I talked to last night at the MORE contingency event, these particular locals have ties or contacts to the military bases. Very useful stuff to have, some of these local contacts could be as, or, more reliable than what the military wants us to hear.

D37, CORVA, BRC, and the 4x4 clubs as well should represent

Anything I else can do from here, let me know
Thanks
Wayne Nosala

[desertjewel]

Hey guys, I am a member of the Victor Valley 4 Wheelers. If you need any help on the history of building the Hammers and the history of the surrounding area, please PM me. I can get you connected with a couple of the club members who built all these trails and who are still continuing to build more trails out there.

Also there are some really good maps on MyJeepRocks.com if those will help.

[Jeepndel]

Wayne, beings you're on the d37 board, please have stuby and whomever post up here or send us some links,info on these new Friends groups. Awesome that they are starting up. That's what we need. We need to get four wheelers and dirt bikers working together on this. We may not need another group -- if these new (sorta) existing groups can bunch up and coordinate.

Please also point them to this article for more help on building a Friends type group (and saving a recreation area like The Hammers)
www.delalbright.com/Articles/coalitions.htm

Thanks, Del

[pitchitpitchit]

I am on board with whatever is best for Johnson Valley. "Friends Of Johnson Valley" is ready to be started if needed though. It can represent the specific needs of Rockcrawlers. Based on some emails that I have recieved there seems to be some disconnect betweem the D37/ Corva and rockcrawlers. I would like to see that changed.

So Del, do you think we should start a FOJV group that specifically represents rockcrawlers?




Scott Van Dell

[JeepGal02]

Hey guys-

I started a petition to save Johnson Valley. I thought it would be nice to have a little ammunition, especially since many folks cant make the long drive.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/SaveJohnsonValley/
(If it asks for a donation, just close the page. Your signature was received. :))

PLEASE pass this around!

Ill print it out on Saturday morning before we leave. The more we can get in these few days the better, however, I will not take it down until we are finished with our cause.

Tam :)

[Jeepndel]

If you want to help save the hammers, please sign up on our Hammers only email network (list).
http://dynamite.goldrush.com/mailman/listinfo/hammerdown_savethehammers.com

thanks, Del

[TomJeeps]

http://district37ama.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20486&page=3

I think we should suggest to the Marines that they take Sheephole Valley Wilderness and leave Johnson Valley alone. Explain that Patton used that area for tank maneuvers and there's no one out there using it now.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/SaveJohnsonValley?e

They seam to be reviving this on the D37, yes if the go East they will need to cut the North corner off the Sheephole Wilderness, I hear this area is possible habitat not actually vital to the Wilderness. This is key to moving East and a real potential flash point if anyone was trying to work with the CBD, which I hear MEG and Jerry have been trying to do, this could get interesting...TJ

[johngil]

Right on TIGERCAT.
Let's wait and see.

[TomJeeps]

Right on TIGERCAT.
Let's wait and see.



John do you actually have anything to say, seams your implying you know something we don't:confused:...TJ

[luvrox]

John do you actually have anything to say, seams your implying you know something we don't:confused:...TJ

Anything he says would probably be more constructive than the constant stirring and bs being put forth by TJeep. I asked you privately to cool it, to no avail. Would it be best for Lance to start an official TJ pissing match forum so others can use this forum to share ideas along with differences so we all can move forward on more constructive things? :mad3:

[TomJeeps]

Yes of course I thought this was interesting myself as far as the Sheephole Wilderness, I'm disappointed there appears to be an attempt to turn this into something else.:flipoff2:. I was hoping John did have more to say about this matter myself, is it not key to trying to move this thing East???..TJ

[Marie Brashear]

Hey folks

If I may, I would like to chime in here.

There are a couple of other Organizations working this
Issue and please let’s not leave anyone out of the loop

CORVA (California Off Road Vehicle association) Has been
on this for a few weeks.



District37 AMA obviously, They have a large stake in this area
regarding events and such.


Friends of Giant Rock, Im hoping some here have heard of them,
they have been fighting this unfair ordinance 3973 in San Bernardino
County, they have made some impressive moves in SB county and
have been doing some clean ups and such in JV.

I will tell ya, These guys live and breathe JV, they live there, they
will be an important part of this when push comes to shove.

SDORC San Diego Off Road Coalition. Yep San Diego, But Ed Stovin
President can be an asset to have on our side regarding access
to Congressman Duncan Hunter

ASA also may be an asset to San Diego friendlies

Meg at ORBA, Im sure we can call on ORBA to rally support from the
OHV business community



I hate to say it, but someone posted here that they had contacted a rep
From COW (Community ORV watch) a pretty rabid anti ohv ORG, but looks like
we may be able to work with these folks, and others. The last thing they
want Is 1000s of displaced OHVs in their back yard. It appears they actually
will get behind us.

Notably absent is the Buggy/Truck racing community make up of
MDR and MORE series. I have been on these guys butts to get a
legal fund together or at least an ORG of some sort to post a stake
at the table when something like this comes down the pipe.

Maybe this will finally wake these guys up and become physically involved.

I did a Google search on this subject and am amazed how fast this
thing has shot though the community and the many message
boards that support OHV recreation.

I received the John Stuart invite to this rally via many different
Emails, I will try to get it posted on the CORVA site ASAP

You guys Rock! Keep up the good work!

Again, Emphasize, Use Johnson Valley!

Wayne Nosala

CORVA East Kern County Field Rep
Friends of Jawbone

:stirthepot:The two most important organizations some how have fallen off the list:
The Friends of Johnson Valley a coalition of more event/racing OHV groups and

The Partnership for Johnson Valley. a coalition of OHV folks and other multiple use organizations.

Both these groups have been working on saving "the Hammers" for months. As they have been working on the issue for months I didn't want them to be overlooked.

No they don't post all they are doing, but they are doing. Meetings with elected officials, local and federal, planning sessions, power point presentations, maping, GPSing roads, inventorying water for wildlife and such. I would like to suggest you should join and help where ever you think you can be helpful; no matter which organization it is.

You should also know there will be a meeting soon between the Secretary of the Interior and BLM on alternative energy issues. I am including info from the lastest BLM news.

What happens at this meeting will have bearing on the Fry Mountain Project and how much more desert will be lost to us.

:stirthepot:"Leader calls valley's wind energy vital" (Palm Springs Desert Sun, 10/14/08)
"Wind turbine fields such as those that define North Palm Springs are 'extremely important' as the country diversifies its alternative energy choices, the U.S. Secretary of the Interior said Monday. 'You have to have that as part of your energy portfolio,' Secretary Dirk Kempthorne told The Desert Sun ... Kempthorne said wind continues to be at the forefront of energy conversations, and he has a 'significant meeting' planned on Oct. 20 with the Bureau of Land Management to discuss future plans. There are some 200 wind energy permits covering 2 million acres pending, he noted."
http://www.mydesert.com/article/20081014/NEWS0301/810140305

When you read the entire article it speaks to increasing the impact of wind farms by putting solar panels between the windmills. This might save an acre or several from single use solar farms but it also reduces the options in saving activities and places like "the Hammers"

We are hopeful that at a minimum local government reps will be included in the meeting.

Some thoughts on COW they will support us until they don't think they need us. Heck, the Center for Biological Diversity has come out against the base expansion also. Some of their members might show up at the gathering. I guess what I am saying here is they will think they are using us and we think we will be using them and maybe we should watch what we say and do when they are around.

:bounce2:Marie:bounce2:

[Marie Brashear]

Yes of course I thought this was interesting myself as far as the Sheephole Wilderness, I'm disappointed there appears to be an attempt to turn this into something else.:flipoff2:. I was hoping John did have more to say about this matter myself, is it not key to trying to move this thing East???..TJ

http://district37ama.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20486&page=3


http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/SaveJohnsonValley?e

They seam to be reviving this on the D37, yes if the go East they will need to cut the North corner off the Sheephole Wilderness, I hear this area is possible habitat not actually vital to the Wilderness. This is key to moving East and a real potential flash point if anyone was trying to work with the CBD, which I hear MEG and Jerry have been trying to do, this could get interesting...TJ

:bounce2::bounce2: I don't know how many times I have to say this, it is being worked on. A reminder also we are not the only readers of this thread.
Marie:bounce::bounce:

[Marie Brashear]

Wayne, beings you're on the d37 board, please have stuby and whomever post up here or send us some links,info on these new Friends groups. Awesome that they are starting up. That's what we need. We need to get four wheelers and dirt bikers working together on this. We may not need another group -- if these new (sorta) existing groups can bunch up and coordinate.

Please also point them to this article for more help on building a Friends type group (and saving a recreation area like The Hammers)
www.delalbright.com/Articles/coalitions.htm

Thanks, Del

:bounce::bounce:Del, I appreciate what you are attempting to do. However I do take exception with your statement highlighted in red. I will say to you what I said to ORBA and D37. OHV eventers and racers CANNOT mitigate or solve a problem which impacts me a resident of Lucerne Valley, a rockhound and someone who works on Water for Wildlife Projects. All of which are likely to be impacted by what happens at Fry Mountain and the proposed base expansion and the 2 solar farms. So let us all work together or we shall surely fail.
Marie:bounce::bounce:

[TomJeeps]

Some thoughts on COW they will support us until they don't think they need us. Heck, the Center for Biological Diversity has come out against the base expansion also. Some of their members might show up at the gathering. I guess what I am saying here is they will think they are using us and we think we will be using them and maybe we should watch what we say and do when they are around.

They will support anyone till it's a matter of choosing between East and West, as long as the focus is to prevent any development of any kind they will be your friend...TJ

[Marie Brashear]

They will support anyone till it's a matter of choosing between East and West, as long as the focus is to prevent any development of any kind they will be your friend...TJ
:bounce2::bounce2: Tom you are so right ! ! !
Marie :bounce2::bounce2:

[FOGRay]

Just a comment on the COW’s. I have been to their meetings and have seen first hand the hatred they have for off roaders. At one meeting a woman asked the sheriff if it was ok to shoot at them. With a stash of accusations, many false or highly exaurated the are clearly over the top. That being said I have met a few who actually say off roading is OK just not in my back yard. There is also some cow’s with a brain that see the extremeism and have since left the barn. I have offered to help residents repair fences the "bikers" have tore down, but was ignored. The organizer Phil Klasky from San Francisco and I have spoke several times, he is a professional activist and know me well, oddly the cow meetings are no longer publicized so I haven’t been to any lately. I believe firmly what TJ and Marie say. They are in it for themselves. I also believe the hard core cow would love to see the total end of dirt sport.
Ray

[kf6zpl]

The forming of COW was underwritten by Center for Biological Diversity and one of its many surrogates in the southern California area.

Rest assured they are supportive of two things: elimination of OHV recreation in the area and stifling any type of economic development in the region.

San Francisco State University "professors" continually surface as surrogate fronts for CBD.

[Wayne_Nosala]

COW website http://orvwatch.com/

Another site that loves us http://www.stopthrillcraft.org/index.htm

[TomJeeps]

Dear Tree,

Endangered Peninsular bighorn sheep are barely holding their own against extinction, and the Bush administration, on its way out the door, has proposed a huge reduction in protected habitat for these majestic animals. They're trying to cut more than half of the habitat designated as critical to the bighorn in 2001 by using junk science -- habitat that has been documented to be used by bighorn for browsing and essential movement corridors is going to be deleted from this flawed critical habitat designation.

After the Peninsular bighorn was listed as endangered in 1998, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service designated 844,897 acres of rugged desert mountains and canyons, and essential alluvial fans as critical habitat for these magnificent and tough sheep, who are threatened by housing tracts on the alluvial fans, diversion of watering sites, and disruption of lambing areas by roads. The current proposal reduces the critical habitat to 420,650 acres, leaving out vast swaths of habitat that the bighorn use as foraging areas and corridors between crucial water sites.

Critical habitat is necessary to allow for recovery of the bighorn population to sustainable levels. The current proposal leaves out so much habitat that it will doom the bighorn's recovery, cause further declines in the populations because it fragments and isolates existing bighorn bands, and may ultimately cause extinction.

You can make a difference by letting the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service know its critical habitat proposal is unacceptable. Please write the agency and let it know that Peninsular bighorn sheep require all currently used habitat in order to recover.

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Sample letter:

Re: Peninsular Bighorn Sheep Need More Critical Habitat


Attn: RIN 1018-AV07

The Peninsular bighorn sheep is making a comeback from its downward spiral to extinction. The current critical habitat of 844,897 acres has helped to make that possible. The new proposal that eliminates over half of the bighorn's habitat and will hurt the bighorn. Fish and Wildlife Service's own data show that bighorn use areas that are not included in this proposal. Basic conservation biology tenets confirm that large contiguous areas, rather than small disconnected areas, are better at conserving and recovering imperiled populations of animals like the Peninsular bighorn sheep.

This proposed critical habitat is therefore scientifically flawed and will likely harm the bighorn, perhaps driving it back into the extinction spiral. In addition, the economic analysis provided by the agency regarding the cost of designating critical habitat is based on assumptions that are no longer valid and must be revised in light of the current economic downturn. Please withdraw this proposal, and propose a more scientifically based designation.


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Just to give you an idea what to expect from CBD...TJ