I 'm doing a cummins diesel :D swap on my FJ 40 and I wanted some opinions about GM transmissions. So far my options are the th400 or the sm465. Or I can go with any other gm trans. I plan on keeping the toyota 3spd transfer case since I won't be swapping my toyota axles for a short while. Any thoughts would be helpful before I buy a tranny.
Thanx Jim

SM 420, NV4500, NV5600, which Cummins are you using? Which
bellhousing?

I'm using the 4bt with a Gm bell adapter.

you definetly will not have enough length for the 5600, but i've done a couple of conversions with the nv4500 and they work out really well. besides, that way you can use pretty much all factory stuff to bolt the trans to the engine. only thing to wath out for is the location of the clutch slave on the bell housing.
the th400 and sm465 share one feature that will definetly restrict you a lot with running a diesel: top gear is direct drive. your top speed would suck for sure!:p

im going to be running a th400 out of a cucv. the convertor has 6 mounting flanges. behind this im running a dodge 205 married. im ordering the adapter soon from a dude to bolt GM trannys behind my 5.9:cool:

The 4BT would fit well in a FJ40 but because it's roughly 5 inches or so deeper you're going to need significant lift, IE most likely a spring over axle. I've been doing a lot of research on this swap for a custom 60 series I'm thinking about building and for me I'd most likely do a NV4500HD (the 5 speed heavy duty version they use behind the 6BT Cummins in Dodge PUs). The 4BT is governed somewhere around 2500 ROMs so as was mentioned, top speed in a 4BT with a SM465 will be SLOW (like 45 mph). Hence the use of the 5 speed, then you can still have a pretty decent low and retain your 4.11s saving you money as well.

Though of course the NV4500 won't come cheap either!

Andre
87 HJ60t

I would also use a 4 speed split case from a '79 or later FJ40 or 60. Much stronger and even in the toned down version, the 4BT is probably going to produce too much torque for the 3 spd t-case. The advanced adaptors unit works between the 4 speed case and the NV4500HD, I belive you have to grind off a small segment at the end. The stock 4BT bellhousing should work too, the 4BT is identical to it's big brother 6BT in almost every respect minus 2 cyl of course!

Andre
87 HJ60t

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dieselcruiserhead
The 4BT would fit well in a FJ40 but because it's roughly 5 inches or so deeper you're going to need significant lift, IE most likely a spring over axle. I've been doing a lot of research on this swap for a custom 60 series I'm thinking about building and for me I'd most likely do a NV4500HD (the 5 speed heavy duty version they use behind the 6BT Cummins in Dodge PUs). The 4BT is governed somewhere around 2500 ROMs so as was mentioned, top speed in a 4BT with a SM465 will be SLOW (like 45 mph). Hence the use of the 5 speed, then you can still have a pretty decent low and retain your 4.11s saving you money as well.

Though of course the NV4500 won't come cheap either!

Andre
87 HJ60t [/QUOTE
Welcome newbie...............:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:
aka turbo-Exxon valdez

I ahve to agree with someone before me that the torque of that motor is going strain the stock T case. To swap a D60 in the rear and a run NP205 or D300 is not that much more work. Also think of your poor Birfields in the front. I woud suck to do all this work and brake alot of parts. You can sell your 3 speed case for what a 205 or 300 will cost and you won't be spending an arma nd leg for an adapter. The rear D60 can be gotton for $100 and by the time you rotate the front knuckles for the SOA you can buy a D60, assuming you sold your disc brake front end too. Its the old story one thing leads to another!

I'm running getrags behind a 4bta and 6bta, call me to discuss these...the tranfer case adapters has me puzzled.
ray 510-758-8436

5.9L TD + 3 speed case = :nuke:

Hey, I think this thread was the first one that I ever posted to. AFAIK, there is no Getrag to LC transfer case adapter. Advance Adapters makes a NV4500 direct bolt replacement in for the Getrag transmission. There is a NV4500 to 3 speed, 4 speed, & 4 speed split case adapter, also from Advance Adapters. Other than that, I'm pretty sure you are going to have to use a different tranny. Here I was in this thread saying "don't use a SM465 behind a 4BT" when I'll probably be doing the same thing shortly. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by KMAN
5.9L TD + 3 speed case = :nuke:

Man it ain't Free ( Man a Fre) has the new cast iron transfer case in their new catalog.... don't know the price but from the picture it looks HD.

Bennett

give your 3 spd t/case a hug and tell it sorry before you run it .
the engine will destroy that t/case in no time .. i think i may have been the first to put a 4bt into a cruiser .
what 4bt do you have ? all of the automotive based 4bt's i have seen have the turbo outlet rear facing and that puts it about 1" from the firewall.. i ran my exhaust through the cab above the floor board and built a cage around it , so the passenger didnt burn themselves ..
it is a horrible engine for a street driven daily type driver . it is the loudest diesel you can find and vibrates more then anything i have every seen ..after 5 mins of the first fire up no less then 10 lock tighted bolts fell off the truck .. for just crawling the powerband is ok .. there is very little throttle response and dont expect stellar performance because the powerband is extremely narrow.. i would place it close to the same performance as a worn out 2f .. for low gear crawling now thats a different story you wont stall the engine at all .. you will grenade all of your drivetrain before you stall the engine .. gas milage is awesome i did the rubicon from one side to other then back on 4.5 gallons of fuel ..
btw if you have an industrial model 4bt it has a different harmonic balancer then an auto based engine .. the industrial 4bt will rattle a bunch worse then the auto based engine and the auto based engine is HORRIBLE for vibration .my steering wheel moved about an 1 1/2 " -2" up and down from vibration your hands will go numb .. i ran an sm465 with 42's tires and 5.13 gears forget 4th gear there was not enough gear separation between third and forth for practical street use . when you rev it up in third and shift to fourth the rpm drops so low that it would take a 1/4 mile to gain rpm back , and my 4bt was pumped to the max marine injectors, cam plate and a different turbo housing .. mine was dynoed at around 280-300 hp and 750 ft lbs of toruqe . so a stocker would suck even worse ...
i could go on about how it is a bad engine for a street driven vehicle but it could take up a novel .. dont get me wrong i love the engine and think cummins is the best diesel hands down but the 4bt is not the right choice . the harmonic dynamics of the four cyclinder are totally different from the 6 cyl .. the 6bt is almost silent in comparison and vibrates less than half as much .
then your going to have to get really creative with the oil pan to diff clearence . i built custom d 60 with the diff housing moved as far to the pass. side as possible with a spring over and still put a huge dent in the oil pan when i twisted the suspension up .. with the cruiser axles you will have to run spring over and your going to be so close to the oil pan you will hit it when off road ..
the good thing is cooling , the 4bt is easy the stock radiator will keep it plenty cool .. even pumped mine would run in 90 degree temp all day and never get above 185-190 ..you will also have to consider what hydraulic pump vacum or air pump you will run .
on the 4bt the lift pump is so close to the assesory drive that if you plan on running the vacum pump and steering pump from a dodge truck you will need a lift pump block off plate . you will then need an aftermarket electric lift pump to feed you injection pump . diesel tends to kill electric fuel pumps quite fast so i would recomend a gerotor type pump they are not cheap , and will still not have the life expectancy of running regular fuel . i would suggest buying an extra fuel pump to back up the one you use .. the diesel fuel killed mine on the first obstacle of calrocs and put me out of the comp .. at 300 dollars per pump thats a lot of money just for a back up pump ..
there is so much more to consider but my finger are gettng tired of typing hehe

good luck

alan

here is a pic of the cab where the exhaust came through the firewall

Originally posted by bennett


Man it ain't Free ( Man a Fre) has the new cast iron transfer case in their new catalog.... don't know the price but from the picture it looks HD.

Bennett

Where do you stop and look at what you trying to achieve. Thats alot of money to keep a rear cruiser axle. I have gone through the same thing and am going to stop at a split case in my 40. No more modifications to keep a cruiser rear axle.

So Alan, now we know which engine not to use. How soon are we gonna be able to use a Mercedes diesel? I notice the 4x4labs site (http://4x4labs.com/diesel.html) hasn't been updated in a looong time... I'm still hoping for this conversion to be my winter project!

KMAN, I think part of the reason for keeping the tcase might be for those thinking of rear steer...

Originally posted by Polarweasel
So Alan, now we know which engine not to use. How soon are we gonna be able to use a Mercedes diesel? I notice the 4x4labs site (http://4x4labs.com/diesel.html) hasn't been updated in a looong time... I'm still hoping for this conversion to be my winter project!

thats a damn good question .i did do some research on the benz conversion but i am no longer part of 4x4labs ,i am now the sole owner of rockbuggysupply and my focus is in a different direction.
i do believe the benz to be a good candidate for a swap .
i am not sure if luke is working on it or not . that would be a question for him ..
my guess is that it is still a ways out from production .. but like i said i dont know ..

alan

Hey FJ, what model/yr engine are you running? Which flywheel and pully dampner are you using? All of these items MATTER ! I hav no experience except starting mine on jackstands...at idle it was noisey and rough and not as smooth as my 6bta...right off idle it smooooths out significantly and this motor was not bolted down!........lots of throttle response!
My engine is running a 6bta flywheel and if i'm not happy with the vibration, i'll install a marine dampner...there is a high performance dampner (engines rated for 2,500 plus service)using silicon vs the common rubber style.

By the way, those are some great photos! thanks for sharing!
ray

ray it wont matter what you do it will vibrate beyond what is exceptable .. pat gramillion ran a 4bt in his scorpion and had factory cummins race tuners try everything internal and external dampners .. it vibrated so bad his final decsion was to go back to a sbc .. of course if you didnt have it bolted down it's not going to vibrate out of control ..

good luck

alan

I'm real interested in this conversation because it's very possible I might be acquiring a FJ55 with a blown motor and possibly a free or cheap 4BT.

My plan is to mate it to a SM420, using FJ60 axles in S0A configuration with a split case. The model I'll be buying is from the late 80s, with the Bosch Rotary pump that puts out 107 hp, and about 275 ft/lbs of torque. This is the most common setup of 4BTs, most found in bread trucks. Before I had heard of your truck, Alan, I talked to a lot of people about this swap and even sold my 60 to do it, the only down fall of the HJ60 (even with turbo) was a pretty severe lack of power when running larger tires at altitude. The thought of running a more powerful diesel with the efficiency of a 2H, and still retaining driveability with the NV4500 were extremely appealing to me.

I have heard lots of rumors of noise. The conclusion I've come up with is mostly based on 6BTs but I think it is very much applicable to 4BTs as they are almost identical in configuration minus two front cyls. But yes, I am aware that generally no matter what the configuation the 4BT will vibrate more and be louder than a 6BT. But noise complaints I've heard of from people running 4BTs are from people who have the P1700 performance Bosch injection pump (Alan is running over 250 hp, over 700 ft/lbs of torque), and has never run his 4BT near stock output. To me the comparison is like general Cummins 6BT folklore, generally the louder it is, the more powerful. Similar to comparing 24 valve and 12 valve 6BTs, the 24 valves are a *lot louder, but the difference is from 160 hp to over 200, and from 400 ft/lbs to over 550 (a *big power difference using the same block).

To satisfy my concerns I stalked down a bread delivery guy at Burger King a few months ago. If you look at those bread trucks, there is a lightly insulated engine cover (about 1/2" thick at most) separating the engine from the cab. Secondly, there are no inner fenders, when you look above the wheels in the front wells you are looking at the engine. So I had him fire it up, rev it, and he allowed me to ride in it while we circled around the parking lot and it was not that loud at all. I paid particular attention to ask about noise and vibration, and he drives the truck daily as a delervy man. It was not that loud at all, and the truck (though it is a huge truck of course) experienced to me, seemingly minimal vibration in the cab, even with the engine practically at out feet. My thinking is that the large amounts of power forced into an engine that can run sucessfully with that output, but was generally not designed to, are really what cause the noise and vibration.

I am aware it will still be a rattly and possibly loud little bugger, but I am not expecting it to rattle the truck to pieces. I've talked to Lou Chou who has the Cummins repower page (http://cgi2.x-pointcgi.com/~dieselrepower/index.html) and is also running a similar setup to Alans in his Scout. He daily drives it with a NV4500 and 1 ton axles. He's also using many of the 6BT performance modifications. He complains of noise at lower rpms but he says when cruising it's not noticable. He also said after I spoke to him first that sound proofing made a big difference, he's running and old Scout similar to how I imagine running this engine in an old 40 would be. But running it in a well insulated 55 or a 60 or later I do not think would be a big problem. I've also talked to this guy who' got a 4BT in his M37 power wagon (http://www.garbee.net/~cabell/) and the noise is not unbearable. He's running a similar setup to what I'll be using if I do it. My thoughts are that people have modern 6BTs in their Cummins that are noisy as hell. So I think if I'm careful about noise (I will install a sound insulation out of precaution), and don't tweak it too much (up to about 300 ft/lbs, 130 hp at most, which is probably near the maximun with the rotary pump) I'll be OK.

I am not expecting a V8, I am not expecting a particularly smooth engine, I am expecting a rough, noisy, and rattly engine, but I think it's more than do able. If this thing happens then I guess I'll find out first hand.

Keep us posted "Dieselcruserhead" on your conversion, i just located a spud shaft conversion for my 4bta/getrag/D300(jeep) to scout project...i can now run a chaep 5speed behind the 4bta!

one of yall need to buy my isuzu npr motor and auto tranny and pop it in a 40. and tell me how it works. mike

Originally posted by gunracer1
one of yall need to buy my isuzu npr motor and auto tranny and pop it in a 40. and tell me how it works. mike

MY wife needs a NPR for Christmas....how much?

How long from the fan to backyoke on the Auto trans?

Seriously - I'm wondering how much you want for it and would it make it to Utah as it or would it have to be towed...?

As for updates, Bennett and I located a breadvan that's been sitting behind a Chinese restaurant for a few years with some sort of auto tranny that's busted. I've been stalking the company who it belongs to for about two months now and never got a call back (despite about two calls a week from me). I finally just got through a few days ago and said they may either "donate it to the cause" (:cool:), or simply sell it as is for $500-$1000 at most. We figure the body of the truck is worth $500 in recycling alone (aluminum) so the engine might pay for itself. As I pull together some cash it'll probably be exactly as stated, a 4BT (early version) to SM465 to split Land Cruiser case. But I'm interested in your D300 off a Jeep?? Is the offset front and rear to the right or centered rear? What did it originally come in?

i bought it in a goverment auction, i am in it right at 1800 bucks. but it is missing most of the dash, and trim. the motor is complete with a auto and a/c. i have never started it, tried one day but it just kept clicking. the motor is not froze up it turns a little with every click. i just don't have the time to mess with it. so there is the long drawn out version. mike

MY FRIEND MY HAVE AN INTEREST IN THE NPR IF IT'S AVAILABLE?

Interesting picts -

6btctd_fj40 just emailed me these and I thought I'd share. Some of these picts were posted before but there's some new ones too...!

All picts here:
http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/6btfj40/

Firewall:
http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/6btfj40/10.jpg

Bottom of engine in comparison to axle:
http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/6btfj40/3.jpg

Whole engine in truck:
http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/6btfj40/4.jpg

Steering box setup...
http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/6btfj40/8.jpg

Use of stock(?) radiator:
http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/6btfj40/5.jpg

Truck isn't done yet (as seen) but I'm certainly excited to have these picts just for the coolness of the swap. One bad mutha in a FJ40!!!

Some more photos:
http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/6btfj40/engine1.jpg

http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/6btfj40/engine2.jpg

http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/6btfj40/engine3.jpg

42" Swampers
http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/6btfj40/42x15x15%20swampers%20%20in%20garage.jpg

Specs: Radiator is afco racing aluminum. Steering is now saginaw 15x10 wheels 42x15x15 swampers, tf 727 trans, np205 tcase square tube front driveline...

Personally, though I was against this conversion for a while I now think it's a pretty cool swap. Only serious problem I think is the 1300lb engine, but other than that 12 valve version puts out 160 hp and 400 ft/lbs of torque, not much more than a tweaked out 350 that many of you already have in your junk. It it will crawl crawl crawl without dying.



My $.02!

Nice work 6btctd_40...!

Came accross a new snag with the getrag/d300 conversion. Bolted things up and everything fits except there is a 1/4 inch gap between the getrag/jeep d300, so its fabricate a spacer time, plan to index the d300 to provide more engine/driveshaft separation...pics will follow....