looking at a speedway mag. and they have a 396 stroker kit, uses scat crank, super stock 351 rods, keith black hypereutetic pistons, main and rod bearings. a ring style/ i beam $799
h beam a ring style $1099

ok my question is what is a better kit? the h beams? what kind of RPM can this withstand? what kinda power can it make? and how much of a diff. is it between both kits, one stronger than the other?

thanks,

boom

the rods in both kits are fine, the h beams are better,
the pistons are junk cast Silvolite's that I wouldnt run.

I would run the forged pistons.
Check summit, they have some stroker kits.

What are your plans with this motor? If its going to be a high revving HP motor then upgrade to H beams. But if not then I beams are plenty adequate. A 393 should be able to be built on the cheap since you just reuse stock 351w rods and off the shelf 302 pistons, you just need a stroker crank.

I'm building the same motor but did not find this kit. I'm using the Scat crank and Keith Black Hyper pistons but I'm using stock rods with ARP bolts.

If you are rebuilding a 351W, stroking it to 396 is not really any more expensive. You have to buy a new crank (I paid around $300 for mine) but the pistons are cheaper. As someone else stated, the 396 uses 302 pistons instead of 351 pistons. These pistons are shorter and put the top of the piston where it needs to be.

Do a search here and on classicbroncos.com for a lot of information on this motor. Most people call it a 393 however, because that's what it works out to with a .030 over bore. So type in "393 stroker" in the search engine and you'll get hours of reading material.

Power depends on what top end you put on it. Put old, stock Ford heads on it and you'll be doing just a little better than stock. Put an Edelbrock top end kit on it and you should have no problem breaking all your drivetrain parts.

hmm so. um i dont really know because its goin to be street drivin and a trail truck so i dont know on the rpm. id prolly go with the i beams then. and the pistons in the kit are junk??

When I dd my toyota it see's more rev's than when Im on the trail.
idle-5500 is probably all that the motor will need.

I am seriously considering selling my toy and building a bronco2(cause the eb is too expensive). I was thinking that the injected 351, pushed to 393 with edelbrock heads(1.90/2.02) with the performer manifold(truck mani), 1.7 ratio roller rockers, headers, and a torque cam(extreme 4x4 cam is what I was looking at), and whatever injectors and maf it needed.
That setup should easily make mid 400's hp and tq. It should also be very drivable.

Built my 393W a couple of years ago. I used an Eagle crank, stock rods, and "junk" Hyperuetectic pistons. I built my motor myself for $1k. Nothing fancy. Just stock rebuilt heads, good torque cam, 22cc dish pistons(to keep compression under 10:1), and the usual Edelbrock intake with Headman Hedders. I'm getting around 430ftlbs under 2k and 275 hp at 4k. Not a racing engine by no means. But has plenty of grunt to power brake the crap out of my 36x13.50 Iroks, not bad for a 4200 lbs Bronco. It will idle all day in the woods and run on 87 octane. But when needed it will turn up easily to 5k. I'm very satisfied for $1k motor.

ill prolly have to go with the h beam rods then cuz i have a very heavy foot so i dont want shit blowing apart. or i can pick up a 3.85" stroker crank for $400, then find rods? and forged pistons? what would be better?

One thing to remember is that you're not building a race motor (at least from the sound of the intended application). You shouldn't need anything too fancy in the way of parts for what you're wanting to do.

While I realize that it isn't exactly apples to apples, there are a lot of guys running turbos or superchargers on stock SBF shortblocks and making them live. Some of those applications even have either stock cast pistons or hypers in them along with stock rods. Considering that most of those guys are producing way more power than you'll likely make with just a stroked motor I see no reason why you can't run hypers and stock rods. You might consider aftermarket rods depending on what it would cost you to get your stock ones refurbished (there are a lot of cheap rods out there that will cost about the same as rebuilding your stockers).

Also keep in mind that you're going to want to keep a reasonable ceiling on the rpm range or it is going to get expensive fast.

The last thing to keep in mind is that as someone else already said, the top end of the motor will make or break the motor. I don't care how much money you dump into the bottom end of the motor, but if you put a set of shitty heads and a shitty intake and exhaust on it you're still going to have shit. I'm not overly impressed with any of the stock Ford heads or exhaust manifolds I've seen so far (that would fit this motor).

the stock 5.0 came with really strong forged pistons, not cast junk.
you will be hard pressed to find a turbo or blown engine running cast pistons.

Hyperpathetics are fine unless you really plan on pounding on this motor, or forced induction or nitrous is in your future plans. Get an ignition with a rev limiter.

As stated above.. the best factory Windsor heads would be a restriction on this motor.. mostly from the stock baby dick sized exhaust ports. Pony up for at least some iron world products heads. Remember, it may be based off of a 351 but you're feeding 390+ CI.

Edit: Summit Racing has that same kit with H beams and forged pistons for $924. # SCA-1-94205

the stock 5.0 came with really strong forged pistons, not cast junk.
you will be hard pressed to find a turbo or blown engine running cast pistons.

Not all of them did. The later 5.0s in mustangs had Hypers and the trucks had cast pistons. I've seen people running all 3 of them successfully. It all depends on the tune as you can hurt a motor with forged pistons as well but they typically stand up to more abuse and shitty tuning.

I've pushed cast pistoned motors well beyond what people claim you need forged pistons for. The application that is in question in this thread does not need any forged pistons.

What is the motor going in? Just because "your rough on stuff" or "hardcore" doesn't mean you have to spend a fortune on a motor. Like stated before what makes power is going to be your head choice. Spend you money wisely. My engine is choked by the stock D5TE heads. I could spring for a set of AFR's and a little bigger cam and get about 100hp more out of my motor. But they would cost as much as I spent on my entire build. And when I'm on the trail I turn 1500-2000 rpm's 90% of the time, I can't justify them.

There is nothing wrong with Hypers in most applications. KB Hyperuetectic pistons and Silvolites are two different parts. They also make Forged if you want. I built a 393W for a good friend with a cast Eagle crank, stock rods(reconditioned with ARP fasteners), and speed pro flat tops. He had a set of Victor JR heads from a previous motor. Ran a 294* dur/ .560" lift solid tappet Comp cam with a Victor jr manifold. We had more money in the heads than the short block. The motor was in a 2900 lbs Fox body with a C4 with a 4.10 gear. The motor ran for 3 years and was even sprayed with a 150 shot for two summers every weekend at the strip before it was sold. Never had a minutes trouble and was just a strong the day it was sold as the day it was built. I could tell you it was all forged, H beams rod, and custom pistons, but could anyone tell? It is what it is...

Not all of them did. The later 5.0s in mustangs had Hypers and the trucks had cast pistons. I've seen people running all 3 of them successfully. It all depends on the tune as you can hurt a motor with forged pistons as well but they typically stand up to more abuse and shitty tuning.

I've pushed cast pistoned motors well beyond what people claim you need forged pistons for. The application that is in question in this thread does not need any forged pistons.

the point being that he is paying a premuim price for junk cast pistons because silvolite paid a royalty to KiethBlack to use his name.
the price dif for a forged piston that will be of far superior quality is not much more then the cast.
why go to the effort of stroking it if you are gonna use the low quality piston

flatlander lists their kits at $929 with trw cast and I beams, vs $1249 with good pistons

But Hypereutectic and cast pistons are two different animals. Hypers are a high silicon alloy and are usually machine finished. Cast are just that cast aluminum. Pistons in the vehicle you drive everyday are most likely Hypers.

Can you tell the difference?
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/images/piston/LKB719.gif

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/images/piston/LKB281.gif

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/images/spiston/L1195.gif


Why not just buy a crate motor? Save yourself some headache.

For what it sounds like you want to do, a cast crank, hypereutectic pistons, a decent set of rods, and good fasteners (ARP) would be all you'd need. Limit it to 5,000rpms and it will hold up fine. As stated before, don't skimp on the heads. I'm running ported/polished/bowl blended E7TE heads on my 362" Windsor and they are pretty much maxed out on top end, they definitely wouldn't feed a 393" motor at higher RPM.

A set of World 180cc iron heads would make a nice set of off-road heads and won't break the bank at roughly $400 each assembled. Top it off with one of the mid-range Comp extreme 4x4 cams and you'd probably be looking at 350hp/450lb-ft.

Limit it to 5,000rpms and it will hold up fine. As stated

We both know thats not going to happen :D

But seriously, overbuild it the first time around above and beyond what you think you'll do with it. Sure, that route costs more, but in the end it costs and sucks allot less than having to do it twice.

wow lot of opinons (great need all the help i can get) um i have a dual plane carb intake form summit, a 4 bbl 600cfm carb, stock heads and manifold for right now, but ill prolly clean um the rough edges on the heads and match the ports. and is the top piston forged, and bottem two cast? no turbos, no nitrous, no blowers altho id love to put a 6-71 on it, maybe ill jsut put forged pistons in a rasie the comp. a little, put a cam in it and headers and say screw it, but the trails are here arnt really trails. mostly mud and sh!t, so it will be WOT alot. thats y i want it to hold togethor. im jsut tryin to go the cheapest route with the msot power i can get

the point being that he is paying a premuim price for junk cast pistons because silvolite paid a royalty to KiethBlack to use his name.
the price dif for a forged piston that will be of far superior quality is not much more then the cast.
why go to the effort of stroking it if you are gonna use the low quality piston

flatlander lists their kits at $929 with trw cast and I beams, vs $1249 with good pistons

First off, hypers are not the same as a cast piston. Yes, they are cast, but they have a high silicon content and seem to be more brittle and harder than a set of cast pistons in my experience. There's nothing wrong with a set of silvolites for a nice street/strip or mud bogging truck. Remember, no matter what you think it is the motor this guy is building is not a race motor.

You seem to be forgetting that the pistons and rotating assembly don't really make the horsepower. Assuming that everything is the same between two motors other than the piston material and manufacturing process they should make the same kind of power. The only thing that you would gain out of going with a forged piston is noise and some additional insurance if you are building a high zoot forced induction or nitrous motor and you can't tune.

I'd take the difference in cost between the hypers and forged pistons and spend it on the top end of the motor where it would make a difference.

Regarding cast vs. forged pistons, keep in mind that there are many, MANY stock turbocharged and supercharged motors running around on the streets with only cast pistons in them. People have been known to take these stock motors and make over double the horsepower with stock shortblocks and no problems have occurred except when some dipshit tunes the motor. The car companies spend hours of time on the dynos and put the motors through unbelievable torture trying to break them. If they work in that application I'm sure that they will work fine in this one too.

If you want to take the time and read about just how much abuse a set of cheap replacement cast pistons will take, you should read this thread:

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61219.0

It's a Chevy motor, but it just goes to show how much farther a good tune will take you than overbuilding a motor. He never did find the mechanical limits of the stock shortblock.

you seem to miss that he is considering uprating the RODS.
which would be a complete waste of $$ with cast junk pistons, the rods are far stronger then the pistons.

from the links first post
with no signs of distress except a few skirt tabs laying in the pan when i tore it down
the pistons falling apart

if the pistons are junk then why do people sell them? or is it all in how you use them? forced inducjtion, nitrous and that shit?

you seem to miss that he is considering uprating the RODS.
which would be a complete waste of $$ with cast junk pistons, the rods are far stronger then the pistons.

from the links first post

the pistons falling apart

:shaking: You didn't read the thread did you. That was the previous junkyard motor he ran NOT the one that the thread was about. That's not to mention that I bet he rattled the motor you're referring to in order to break the tabs. EDIT: Later on in the thread he mentioned that he ran out of fuel pump on the motor you're referring to

Speaking on rods, I would only upgrade to an aftermarket set of rods if the cost was about a wash between refurbishing stock rods vs. some cheap aftermarket ones. There are a lot of aftermarkets out there now that cost pretty much the same as what the machine work costs. Shop around and see what there is out there. Again, from what I'm hearing about the application I don't believe that aftermarket rods are probably really necessary either. I'd be more worried about the block.

if the pistons are junk then why do people sell them? or is it all in how you use them? forced inducjtion, nitrous and that shit?

You've got it right. The application determines what kind of piston is acceptable. As I said before, forged pistons are more durable and forgiving if tuning mistakes are made, but honestly I don't think you would ever really be able to make a bad enough mistake running a naturally aspirated motor to hurt a piston.

I always spend the extra for forged , I just like the piece of mind that comes with it .
Cast pistons are probably fine for what he wants to do , but I've seen wrist pins get pulled out of cast pistons and that brings the suck .

The bottom end is just a pump and the power is made up top ,but the pump still needs to live .

ive hearrd bad things about the KB hypers...

im assembling a 393w for cheaper than that... pistons... $160... stocvk rods and an ebay $200 crank

search for my build thread

dc

what would be a good set of heads for this motor? what rpm range? priace? (i rally cant spell), to what size CID would this be good for? jsut tryin to find out what i wanna do, keep stock dis. or 396, 408, 454, 434 or w/e jsut tryin to find out info.

thanks,
boom

what would be a good set of heads for this motor? what rpm range? priace? (i rally cant spell), to what size CID would this be good for? jsut tryin to find out what i wanna do, keep stock dis. or 396, 408, 454, 434 or w/e jsut tryin to find out info.

thanks,
boom

As I stated before, searching "393" should get you all the info you need.

World Windsor Jr. cast heads would be nice.
Edelbrock RPM aluminum heads would be nicer.

Also, it's important to know what pistons you are going to use as you will want to match your piston displacement with you head displacement to get a useful overall compression ratio.

Which cam and which intake are two more important questions.

what would be a good set of heads for this motor? what rpm range? priace? (i rally cant spell), to what size CID would this be good for? jsut tryin to find out what i wanna do, keep stock dis. or 396, 408, 454, 434 or w/e jsut tryin to find out info.

thanks,
boom

I wouldn't go over 408 with a stock block. Obviously the large displacement needs a large CFM head. Though I would try to keep the intake CFM to around 200 or less. Then use a Performer RPM manifold. I would also keep the cam at or below 220* dur @ .050. Too much volume will kill intake velocity and low end torque will really start to suffer.

If you go 396 you will need to look for a piston with about a 20cc dish for either a 64 or 58 cc head to keep compression compatible with pump gas.

Trust me, you can tell more of a difference in torque by the seat of your pants than horsepower. The bigger and flatter you make the torque band and the more impressed you'll be.

why did both of u change your posts? wasnt there a link to sum wheres befor?

If you go with the Windsor Jr heads, let me know, ive got 1 brand new bare one that im trying to get rid of.

I'd be runnin' a budget stroker shortblock for 3 months now with no problems. Stock rods, 302 pistons, used scat crank. then it starts getting expensive with World Product Windsor Sr. heads, Mild Crane cam for low end grunt, (EFI, 30lb injectors, 75 mm T-body, 90mm lightening MAF, Tweecer tuned, shorty headers turbo muffler, blah blah blah)

I suspect it will hold together just fine as it don't make power past 4,600 RPM. I find, for a hard pull, it pulls best to 4,000 then I shift. Most of the time I short shift it at 3,000 rpm. the cam is good for 800 rpm to 4,600.
If I was looking for high horsepower, high revver, or forced induction, I would get the "H" beam rods, better forged pistons, and forged crank.

This cam has power/torque off idle: Crane roller cam 364215 (Lobe center 112, duration 260int 270exh .445int & .470ex)

I'd be runnin' a budget stroker shortblock for 3 months now with no problems. Stock rods, 302 pistons, used scat crank. then it starts getting expensive with World Product Windsor Sr. heads, Mild Crane cam for low end grunt, (EFI, 30lb injectors, 75 mm T-body, 90mm lightening MAF, Tweecer tuned, shorty headers turbo muffler, blah blah blah)

I suspect it will hold together just fine as it don't make power past 4,600 RPM. I find, for a hard pull, it pulls best to 4,000 then I shift. Most of the time I short shift it at 3,000 rpm. the cam is good for 800 rpm to 4,600.
If I was looking for high horsepower, high revver, or forced induction, I would get the "H" beam rods, better forged pistons, and forged crank.

This cam has power/torque off idle: Crane roller cam 364215 (Lobe center 112, duration 260int 270exh .445int & .470ex)

How do you like that cam? Do you wish you would of gone a little bigger? I picked up a Crane cam for cheap, but im afraid it might be a little to big for my 351w. Its duration @.050 is 216/228 with 112 lobe speration.

why did both of u change your posts? wasnt there a link to sum wheres befor?

The link quit working for some reason.

Just go to www.classicbroncos.com, click the little upside down trangle next to the word "Search" and select "Advanced Search." You'll want to search only thread titles for "393." Read for hours.

You may be able to get similar results by searching this site; I just haven't tried it.

Edited to add: Just tried the search on this site and it didn't work for me. Try ClassicBroncos.com.

How do you like that cam? Do you wish you would of gone a little bigger? I picked up a Crane cam for cheap, but im afraid it might be a little to big for my 351w. Its duration @.050 is 216/228 with 112 lobe speration.


I wonder how that cam would act with 1.7 ratio rockers?

I run a FRPP M-6250-M50 cam from the '95 Cobra R. Still a flat tappet hydraulic cam. Specs out at .453/.453 lift with 210*/220* @.050 with 1.7 roller tip rockers. Very smooth idle with awesome torque. The lobe separation is fairly wide like a marine cam.

There is also a way to get more torque by using shorter pistons and longer rods, or something like that.

I saw it on the ECBR or EBML site, but now I cant find it.

Also the longer the intake runner, the more torque you will have below 3000 rpm.

I also remember seeing an article about some dyno tests on a stang 5.0 where they extended the intake runners 11 inches, and it added 45 ft lbs below 3000, and subtracted 45 HP on the top end.

The problem is there isn't really alot of efi intakes. Since its for a truck you have the edelbrock truck intake, if the 5.0 mani will fit you could get the explorer intake, and the stock intake.
Im not sure how easy it would be to build a sheetmetal intake.

There is also a way to get more torque by using shorter pistons and longer rods, or something like that.

I saw it on the ECBR or EBML site, but now I cant find it.

Also the longer the intake runner, the more torque you will have below 3000 rpm.

I also remember seeing an article about some dyno tests on a stang 5.0 where they extended the intake runners 11 inches, and it added 45 ft lbs below 3000, and subtracted 45 HP on the top end.

The 351w long rod is gaining a little popularity, but its been long debated wether or not it actually is beneficial. You use a 6.580" long rod from a 400m, and then corresponding pistons. Supposedly the piston will "dwell" longer at TDC & BDC improving combustion and breathing. I had an article a while back were they built one and were running 11:1 compression on pump gas and created good HP and torque numbers.

The 351w long rod is gaining a little popularity, but its been long debated wether or not it actually is beneficial. You use a 6.580" long rod from a 400m, and then corresponding pistons. Supposedly the piston will "dwell" longer at TDC & BDC improving combustion and breathing. I had an article a while back were they built one and were running 11:1 compression on pump gas and created good HP and torque numbers.

You start opening up a can of worms with the rod ratio debate. Long rod theory is that is slows the piston down and increases the dwell as stated above. But this doesn't help low end torque. It will help with restrictive heads or higher rpm breathing.

I prefer the shorter rod ratio for a street engine. It will rev quicker and give a better seat of the pants feel. Though for an all out budget busting motor I like to run as long a rod as I can stuff in the block.

im jsut gunna run 351 cid unless it needs to be cleaned out, but im jsut goin to put good pistons, heads, cam, carb, headers and small odds and ends on it.

FWIW, playing with camquest6(downloadable on cranes website) it seems pretty easy to get some torque out of a 393.
with a decent head, pockete porting, 2.02/1.6 valves, 9.5:1 comp ratio, large tube headers and a stock 5.0 intake, and cranes 35-255-5 cam estimates 340hp and 504tq. And the peak torque is @ 2000.

Thats the stock ratings on a superduty!!!

How do you like that cam? Do you wish you would of gone a little bigger? I picked up a Crane cam for cheap, but im afraid it might be a little to big for my 351w. Its duration @.050 is 216/228 with 112 lobe speration.

It's no "Hot Rod" cam, but I like it for crawlin' while turning 39.5 Iroks! It is hard to stall my rig since the power is there at 800 rpm with 5.38 gears, a 5 speed with granny and a doubler. DD'ing it, a big 5 mile commute and out to trails. I wanted decent mileage. I get 10!

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/578436/fullsize/dscn2578.jpg


Flat torque curve, but Desktop dyno ony calc down to 2,000RPM:
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/620449/fullsize/dscn3020.jpg

The problem is there isn't really alot of efi intakes. Since its for a truck you have the edelbrock truck intake, if the 5.0 mani will fit you could get the explorer intake, and the stock intake.
Im not sure how easy it would be to build a sheetmetal intake.

If emissions compliance and/or a visual inspection is not a requirement, there appears to be a kind of cool, fairly cheap EFI intake for the 351. Here's a link I grabbed quick:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBF-Ford-351W-351-SPYDER-EFI-Intake-Manifold-Victor-Jr_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247Q QcategoryZ36474QQihZ018QQitemZ280137338047QQrdZ1QQ sspagenameZWD1V

Please note that I have not actually used or seen one of these manifolds yet. I just think they look like they might be a good option.

One other option is this intake. Supposedly it's a knock off of the Edelbrock Performer RPM for the EFI 351w.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/86-95-Mustang-Cobra-5-8-EFI-351W-TYPHOON-Intake-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ36474QQihZ017QQitem Z270233003589QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW


it's certainly cheaper than trying to find a GT40 351w lower.

My plan is to use a GT40 lower I picked up a year ago and reuse my explorer upper since it's a direct match to the GT40 lower. The only thing I don't like is that this lower is cast iron, not aluminum.

Per intakes.....
My first sefi 351 was fed by a GT40 upper and lower efi intake setup along with 65tb and 70 ma, 24lb inj.
It died a couple of years ago and we went back with a 392-this required more fuel and the specs on the GT40 list it as "350 or less". With that said we went with the Trick flow 351 track heat setup, upper and lower. We had to go up to 30lb squirters also, change the tb and ma as well.
With Ford racing GT40 turbo X heads(had a gift cert. for Ford racing), 1.6 rrs, Comp cams(at work right now and can't remember the specs), Weisco 10.5:1 forged pistons, balanced lower end, etc...... it had to have a chip burned for the stock comp. to run correctly.
On the chasis dyno with 40" MTs, C4, and Atlas 4.3 run in 2wh it made 300hp at the rear wheels and 410ish tq. Quit making pwr at 5k, flat from 5-5.5k
Came in nicely around 2100.
FWIW,