Your strong opinions on the subject:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66152&highlight=rubicon

1.) Hang em' high

2.) Lightin Up, Ok ?

3.) I'm almost there myself, let me get a beer and think about it.

I'l still have a couple of beers while making any trip into the Con.
But I don't become an Idiot or a danger to anyone. If they were to start inforcing an open container law on the trail, then I'd just stop more often and enjoy a shady spot. Do I like being on the trail and around the yahoo idiots, NO I don't, but are you willing to go to the extremes to corral the minority. If so your doing just what the greenies are doing, just a different subject (stomping on someones else liberties. I believe there are other ways to deal with problems beside prohibation.

Just my .02

Rich

Originally posted by Big Rich
I'l still have a couple of beers while making any trip into the Con.
But I don't become an Idiot or a danger to anyone. If they were to start inforcing an open container law on the trail, then I'd just stop more often and enjoy a shady spot. Do I like being on the trail and around the yahoo idiots, NO I don't, but are you willing to go to the extremes to corral the minority. If so your doing just what the greenies are doing, just a different subject (stomping on someones else liberties. I believe there are other ways to deal with problems beside prohibation.

Just my .02

Rich

So if I embezel money from my company it is okay since I am not a danger to anyone? Illegal is illegal, so you can't compare to the greenies in this case.

Here we go again, another 5 pager:eek:

Ok let me put it this way, is inforcing a no drinking law while in/or about the vehicle, going to stop all the complaints, or even a majority of the complaints that everyone has been making. Loud music at night, stealing from others campsites, fights, idiots in the box, etc.....NO, NO, NO, and if you truly believe anything but education will solve these problems, you had better go join the democratic party and create more new laws, to try and justify your means.

I'll volunteer to help establish some type of an education program for trail edicate.(sp) I believe only through education, not more laws or law inforcement, can these existing problems be truly solved.
With additional inforcement on the Con, you'll only force the idiots to find another place to invade.

Rich

Do you guys booze while wheelin in JV?

Originally posted by Big Rich

With additional inforcement on the Con, you'll only force the idiots to find another place to invade.

Rich

Sounds good to me.

Originally posted by LAME
Do you guys booze while wheelin in JV?

Plenty at camp, and the best part is that we're usuially the only ones on the lakebed:D

I've been known to partake while having lunch on the trail or during down time while waiting on breakage. Having a beer in hand while driving, it has happened, but not very often.

Ok, I'll offer up other solutions......

since it seems most of the problems are coming from a certain age group, lets just outlaw anyone on the trail that is say under
30?

I would be easier for the po po to man a gate and check age than have to police the entire trail system.

And as far as forcing idiots to gather at other trails, what happens if they choose your next favorite spot. Do we then station more police in the "wilderness"?

Or should we just shoot and bury anyone that YOU feel is infriging on what YOU believe is the only way to act.

I just feel as a collective groups of responsible (?) individuals, we can influence a general change in manners, better than the police
trying to control everyones actions.

Rich

Advocating the devil... :p

...are you willing to go to the extremes to corral the minority.
When did prevention of drinking and driving become extreme?

If so your doing just what the greenies are doing, just a different subject (stomping on someones else liberties.
When did drinking and driving become a basic liberty?

I believe there are other ways to deal with problems beside prohibation.
I agree... and it all starts with self-policing. There's an opportunity for us to get off our mutual asses and make a difference right now at: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61854

Other folks are looking for an excuse to close us down. THINK about that next time you pop the top on a beer as you idle down the trail. One may be entirely in control of oneself and one's vehicle... but one CANNOT control the public perception, and one0 may just be the poster child that the anti-access groups use to close us all down. :(

Randii

Originally posted by LAME
Do you guys booze while wheelin in JV?

at camp we get drunk and blow shit up.
on the trail i might have one at lunch or during a break down.

pretty hard to drive any of the hammer trails and actually drink anything while driving. they tend to require all you attention.

there have been drunk guys who have wanted to run a trail with us and we tell them NO! hardcore trails and drunks will result in injury or death.

I never drink on the trail. Why not hold off till you get parked at your camp site?

I believe, adn please correct me if I am wrong, most trails are either unpaved roads, in a national forest, or on someones private property.

As for the unpaved roads part, drinking and driving is illegal. There is no stipulation for driving on an unpaved road.

As for the national forest, isn't it illegal to have alcohol in a national forest?

As fro private property. If it ain't your property, WTF are you doing being a dipstick & fawkin it up for everyone?

Want to drink in camp? Fine, I got no beefs w/ that.

Want to act like asswipes, then there is a problem. When people in camps act like elementary school kids, then it needs to be put to a stop. No matter where they are at.

can we police ourselves, yes. Do we need to get the officials involved, sometimes. Are we gonna be able to stop everybody? No. We can only do what we can do. The problem is, people don't want to do what they can do.

Randii I agree that drinking and driving are not liberty, but I also believe that adding a police force to contol the situation will bring the trail closer to closure than it will to help. What happens if the MAN decides it is to expensive to mantain the enforcement, they'll use that as an excuse for closure!

I suggest we outlaw the bags hanging on the back of vehicles, they always show how much was drunk while using the trail system, the greenies could be using pictures of these to show the thing as the problem. I know I will get jumped on for this but, my drink of choice will end up in an enclosed mug from now on. Just so that the photo op's will be deminished.

And I promise to stop and get out of my vehicle when I do feel thursty.

Rich

Originally posted by camo


at camp we get drunk and blow shit up.
on the trail i might have one at lunch or during a break down.

pretty hard to drive any of the hammer trails and actually drink anything while driving. they tend to require all you attention.

there have been drunk guys who have wanted to run a trail with us and we tell them NO! hardcore trails and drunks will result in injury or death.

Thats what I figured. Thats what it is like around here, exactly. I figured the bigtime boozing trails were the ones you are camped on, and living out of the rig. We usually have a base camp, like you guys do on the lakebed, to keep all the camping crap.

I suggest we outlaw the bags hanging on the back of vehicles, they always show how much was drunk while using the trail system,

NO, it shows that you take care of your trash and could also imply that you pick up others' trash.

...I also believe that adding a police force to contol the situation will bring the trail closer to closure than it will to help.
Here's where we disagree. I have seen first-hand that a police presence on the Rubicon makes people behave better.

...and I'm willing to tolerate a short-term spike in enforcement until the yahoos get it through their heads. Heck, I'd like to see the grants written that exact way -- get badges in there fast, and then slope off, replacing them with volunteers and clubs that can be trained in the interim. Putting a sunset on the police would be a GOOD thing, I think.

What happens if the MAN decides it is to expensive to mantain the enforcement, they'll use that as an excuse for closure!
Let's not play what-if. The Rubicon, IMHO, is headed for closure unless we can clean up our hobby's image. The MAN is a secondary issue -- our image is the primary issue.

I know I will get jumped on for this but, my drink of choice will end up in an enclosed mug from now on.
I'll jump to support you. This makes good sense. I'll just assume you're swigging Near-Beer.

And I promise to stop and get out of my vehicle when I do feel thursty.
I wish that everyone would do this.

Hell, I wish that everyone would stop and examine how their personal choices affect everyone else... but that's asking too much these days. :(

Randii

I voted for "Hang 'em High", but only because there was no choice for "Try to talk to them and educate them... and if that doesn't work, hang 'em high".

JV trail are just to easy with out a good buzz.

Originally posted by JeepinIan
As for the national forest, isn't it illegal to have alcohol in a national forest?

It's illegal to have an OPEN CONTAINER in any motorized vehicle within the boundaries of a National PARK. Different rules apply to the National FOREST, though drinking while driving any NF road (paved or otherwise) would certainly be illegal.

TEX

drinking and driving (open container in vehicle with ignition on) on PRIVATE PROPERTY is ILLEGAL in CA.

Originally posted by Big Rich
Ok, I'll offer up other solutions......

since it seems most of the problems are coming from a certain age group, lets just outlaw anyone on the trail that is say under
30?

Rich

Cant do that Rich.....I was 38 on Mem day!:beer:

Last time I looked, drinking and driving WAS (and still IS ) against the law ! " PERIOD ! " No if,s and,s or but,s about it ! Why are "WE" allowing the actions of so few, dictate to so many ? Guys, GUYS, ... IT IS AGAINST THE LAW ! Agree with it or not...it is the law. I,m gonna get flack for this one..... but it seems the younger set thinks you need to be intoxicated to be having a good time ? When I,m wheeling...I want to be 100% sober ,so I can enjoy ever second of it ! In camp , I,ll tip a cold one with you, rehash the days events and get toasted..."IN CAMP "! Education is the real way to efect change, but.. enforcement is also needed so as education will work. my .02:D


:jeep: __(OIIIIIIIO)__rOkOn:usa:

Last time I looked, drinking and driving WAS (and still IS ) against the law ! " PERIOD ! " No if,s and,s or but,s about it ! Why are "WE" allowing the actions of so few, dictate to so many ? Guys, GUYS, ... IT IS AGAINST THE LAW ! Agree with it or not...it is the law. I,m gonna get flack for this one..... but it seems the younger set thinks you need to be intoxicated to be having a good time ? When I,m wheeling...I want to be 100% sober ,so I can enjoy ever second of it ! In camp , I,ll tip a cold one with you, rehash the days events and get toasted..."IN CAMP "! Education is the real way to efect change, but.. enforcement is also needed so as education will work. my .02

Well said. I love beer, but save it for camp.

First off I hate Beer, Can't stand the smell of it and I see what it does to people. That said, if people wanna drink so be it. All my buddies bring beer and drink it constantly, but they aren't so damn drunk that they are a danger to others or really to themselves. I think what it boils down to is that you have to know yourself and what you are like when you are drunk. If you are obnoxious, angry, drunk off your ass and can't drive for shiat, or are a danger to yourself and others then you shouldn't be drinking on the trail. Biggest thing about alcohol is that it impairs your judgment in everything you do. I watched on the Con while people were wraping winch cables around trees and driving up bushes and trees with their rigs cause they were too drunk to know any better. If you wanna sit down at night in camp and drink to your heats content then have at it. If your busted ass is in the trail and you want refreshment while you wrench so be it, no complaints from me but drunkeness has no business on the trails if you are driving! And Tracy is right, it's not up for debate, if you drink and drive it's illegal, period!

So far 77% say, hang'em high.

Originally posted by Belly Dragger
So far 77% say, hang'em high.

We all have bloodlust after watching Braveheart last night :flipoff2:

TEX

We don't allow alcohol except on our easiest rides...and only then during stops/breaks. The vast majority of those that wheel with me respect that. The balance have quit the clubs and become renegade wheelers. It's unfortunate that their friendship with their beer was more important than their friendship with me.

I can be stupid enuf sober...I don't need beer to make it worse.

"IT'S THE LAW! IT'S ILLEGAL! IT'S THE LAW!"
Buncha fuckin parrots.

Yes, I know the Rubicon is under a microscope. So I wouldn't crack one open there. Or, if I did and saw a hiker with a camera- I'd tuck it away.
Look, I'm not a drunk, like said before anything over 1 an hour on the trail just isn't going to happen. (which by the way is under DWAI level, as said before) It doesn't matter to me all that much either way, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate.

I'm just astounded that all this energy gets poured (no pun intended) into this subject, that it can polarize so much. If everybody spouting off about a beer once in a while would forget that and remember something else, like picking up trash they drive by- or bringing a spare trash bag so somebody with a busted diff doesn't dump oil on the ground- THEN, I think the sport would advance in the eyes of the public far more than if we ostracize the sippers.

Don't abandon all your liberties (yes Randii, I said it's a liberty) because someone may be watching with a telephoto camera from the next hill over.

Don't abandon all your liberties (yes Randii, I said it's a liberty) because someone may be watching with a telephoto camera from the next hill over.
I'll willingly abandon beer-drinking, whatever you want to call it, until I pull into camp... it just isn't that important to me.

Aren't their better principles to fight for, if we're going to risk losing our hobby?

Randii

I drink what I want, and when I want.
I also know when I shouldnt drink, or when I shouldnt drink any more,....so I really dont like the idea of someone poking their nose in my rig, or my buisness,....but seeing as how there are so many idots that cant or dont handle the alcohol very well, I would think that a crackdown by the law would be an acceptable periodic deterent.

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
I never drink on the trail. Why not hold off till you get parked at your camp site?


this is exactly how i think.

Have you been to GLAMIS lately?

Why do jackholes change the subject and ostracize folks when this subject is broached?
Just as in the thread reference in the first post on this thread, anti-drunken-wheeling folks are being told they are the problem, and to go pickup some trash. Pathetic.


BTW, I picked up trash this weekend on the Con; no LESS than a half rack of empty beer cans. Other than on the slabs, every other can found was ON THE TRAIL. That would imply folks tossing their cans, or cans falling out of the rigs, as they're driving. Great representation for the wheeling community.

Let me restate my thoughts.......

I believe education of the masses will do more good than having the police or other law enforcement patrol the Con. Are they there at night when the camps are having problems. I do believe that with a strong push WE can make a difference on this trail, which will help with other trails. And unless you have check points on the trail you won't stop the idiots anyhow, I'm not for being drunk on the trail, but I'm not for law enforcement on the trail either. And saying that you wait until you get to camp, does not mean much.....look at all the problems everyone is having around the camps.....EDUCATE, hand out fliers, do whatever it takes to clean this mess up ourselfs.

Rich

as the sherriff's have already said, the major clubs have more impact than they do.....

if someone was shitfaced on the trail and got hauled out on a helecopter at midnight by EDCSO, I think that would make a few think twice.

If someone was shooting across spider lake and got hauled out in a helecopter at midnight, I think that would make a few think twice.

The complete lack of enforcement has made it a free for all. There is zero chance of anyone getting popped for anything so that means some will push things way beyond the limits.

Education is fine, but It won't stop the true idiots.

I had wanted to simply gauge opinion here on the Board. I was told a long time ago in school that you "can't legislate morality." You have to arrive at a moral standard. By the responses provided, it is obvious that there is a wide latitude of a moral standard. However, I do believe that the results: about 9:1, do not condone Boorish behavior. I am not a moralist. The first dent in my rig is when I backed into a tree and spilled my beer. I love to have a cold beer when its friggin hot. We all learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others. The Rubicon is, and will continue to be in the spotlight of the public eye. Please, please, remember this. You are an ambassador of your sport. Try to live up to that. :flipoff2:

Education is fine, but It won't stop the true idiots.

I agree. That is why I fully support cops that beat the shit out of scum bags. ;)

That is why I fully support cops that beat the shit out of scum bags

That's cool......until someday a cop mistakes you for a scum bag and beats the shit out of you:rolleyes: Seriously....,what a fawkin moron:rolleyes:

I say take some video of the people drinking and driving and thier lic plates send it to the police and maybe that will help keep the drunks off the trails and most of all it will keep Boxer and local po po's from closing the trails!!!


If you :beer: and driving and get :nuke: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by TDbronco :
I say take some video of the people drinking and driving and thier lic plates send it to the police and maybe that will help keep the drunks off the trails and most of all it will keep Boxer and local po po's from closing the trails!!!
________________________________________________

That's a great idea! Turn a bunch of video tape in to the sheriffs of 4wheelers drinking and have the tape get to the media, or better yet Boxers office. That'll really keep the Con open.:rolleyes: We need to start policeing ourselves better.

I'm sure to get told to go pick up more trash because of my respect for the laws of this country, and specifically the ones that reference intoxication.

Those that have suggested anything other than complete compliance might wanna consider this differently. Would it be ok if someone "only" sold drugs at super 7's, "only" broke in vehicles that are covered by insurance, "only" started fires near fire stations?

My point, the perception is not ours to judge, but we are being judged. This is a huge problem and will lead to closures, you see, the decision makers WILL throw the baby out with the bath water.

Many here are inerested in protecting our freedoms, and are willing to modify their behaviour. Others don't think they are the problem. I just don't understand the logic that something illegal is a liberty.

Ok for my official stance on this issue, wait till camp. If you need something good to drink on a hot day try water, iced tea, or something (alcohol actually dehydrates you faster). But kick back that night around the fire and have a few.
Being on the trail should be treated exactly like being on the road. I agree that it would be good to get the MAN in there for a while till things cool down and then hand it over to clubs. One way to look at this (from our view point as well as others) is does it look better that we are fighting with eachother over this, or that a few responsible people are working with the proper authorities to correct a problem. I think the community in general takes more note of your actions against the bad apples when you work with cops. Not only that, in doing so you also build friendships and support lines with the cops for the future. What does this mean possibly cops easing off of alot of us on mud flap violations and stuff because they know us and our character.

That's cool......until someday a cop mistakes you for a scum bag and beats the shit out of you Seriously....,what a fawkin moron

Lol. Cops dont make that kind of a mistake.

Ya right...half the cops I have had the privilige of dealing with are scum bags themselves. The other half were actually decent human beings that weren't on a dick head power trip!

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
I never drink on the trail. Why not hold off till you get parked at your camp site? this makes the most sence to me...

ok, as you all know i am a police officer, i really dont want to see police out on the trails..... i also dont want to see idiots on the trails either... this is a tuff situation, i mean if your calling the trails roads and drinkin is illegal then so is equipment violations... you see where im goin? i really feel that the people need to police the people.... education is a good start but, some people are just too ignorant to learn..... they must be dealt with, in a strict and hard way...... i really dont mind seeing someone drinkin a beer on the trail..... but the uneducated ignorant one who dont know when to stop are the ones blowin it for all of us.... so the big question is where do you draw the line? the answer isnt so easy...... i have a few thoughts but will leave 2 quoates for ya to think about..... in the U.S. you have many rights, untill they infringe on others rights....................

society dictates how the police enforce the laws...... what that is saying is YOU as a whole can and will dictate the outcome of this situation....... pull together and police the con without the government.......dont yap on here bout whats wrong, physically do something about it. i always tell people it is much better to solve your issues with out the envolvment of government.....

Well said. A man with his head on straight.