Dedicated Dimple Die Station

[Bent Fabrications]

Flared Holes are cool... i don't care who you are.

I don't have any pics yet, but we are thinking of making a dedicated dimple die press for the shop. I want it to be a 2 step process that runs off of a foot switch to keep both hands free for handling the material. The press frame will have at least a 12" throat and be small enough to mount on a bench top or free standing pedestal. I'm going to set it up with 2 push/pull hydro rams that each would have a set of dies. The rams would be on the top of the press and engage downward to assist seeing what your doing. The first ram would have a set of cutting dies to quickly punch the holes... then bump over to the second ram, which would have the dimple die.

For any shop that is trying to keep up with the times.. I feel this will be a huge time saving addition to their shop.

It is much more feasible for me to try to build several of these at a time and hook a few others up along the way, than to build a one off just for our shop. So if this sounds like something anyone else might be interested in, let me know.

If several are intrested... we'll work together with the idea to develop what will work best for all. The same concept can be done using a portapower hand pump and self retracting rams pretty cheaply... but for mine I want to set it up with a small pump on it's own stand.

POST UP WITH YOUR THOUGHTS and lets make this happen.

-Tim

[Azzy2000]

Good idea, but I think it would be less complicated to just use a single set of punch and flare dies instead of having two sets of dies.

[Bent Fabrications]

Do you mean combine the punch part on the end of the dimple part? That would be cool and simple.

I had one set of punch dies setup for one of the rams and one set of dimple dies set up for the other ram in mind?

Of course for the less lazy just one ram with 2 punch dies and dimple dies could be changed out... punch all the holes, switch dies and dimple? Thoughts?

[Azzy2000]

Combined punch and flare dies

http://www.vansantent.com/sheet_metal_machines/punch_flare_tools.htm

Near the top, under the first paragraph is a link to watch a video of the punch and flare dies being used on a press like you're talking about. A cheaper way to do it would be to modify a manual arbor press to hold the dies and to use a center punch like the mittler bros. setup.

[Bent Fabrications]

YES.. that's exactly the kind of dedicated press I am talking about. The combined dies are only good to 16guage... so at least a couple extra dies might be needed by some shops. I guess I'd be interested in trying to build a few presses for as cheap as we could do them. If they were set up to use the same dies as the ones above, people could buy the dies separate and only get the ones they need. The press above is priced pretty good... I'll look into what kind of money will be involved in making a few.


I still think it's a killer idea... the speed in production is VERY obvious in the video.

[Chris]

I made two of these dedicated presses, the first can be found somewhere in the tool section and it started a few others making and posting them. The problem I found was that in trying to make something (reasonably) light weight and using a minimum of time and materials, I could not make something that didn't flex badly enough to once almost cause some severe bodily injury.

found it, it was all 1/2", 2" round solid and 1/4" gussets. It flexed badly.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=286017&d=1170564396


I finally built a small "H" press that worked significantly better. JMO.

Also, if you wanted to make the above setup work, how about an air over hydro 20 ton jack? You could make it work on a foot pedal and the springs pull it back down nicely.

[Bent Fabrications]

I did see some of these presses. I admire the ability of making what I'm wanting on the cheap. As a Fab shop I can see us using this tool very often, and would be more comfortable seeing the ram come down instead of being under the sheet metal. In fact the original reason for wanting to build something was to upgrade the 2 ton arbor press that I use to change u joints with. I like the way the arbor press comes down from the top... but it isn't strong enough for other type of dies. Hence the idea of having a 2 way or self retracting ram mounted to the top.

Flexing is a major concern. I envision this press being reasonably small. It would not likely be very light. I want to avoid an H style frame so that bigger pieces of sheet metal could be loaded. ie. using a louver die and feeding the edges of a hood into the press.

I'm not sure that this would be as handy for the hobbie guys as for a part or full time shop. The press could be used to speed up many more processes such as changing u joints, bending flat stock, custom dies for many different things including Shop Logo stamping in parts, along with many other readily available dies such as those above.

I'm not looking to mass make these... but if I'm going to bother making myself one, I'm willing to make several at the same time and hook a few others up.

[Bent Fabrications]

I'm interested in building something very similar to this, but I'd like it to have a taller throat to be slightly more versitle... It may be that a taller throat will make it flex too much? Ideas?

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/Bentfabrications/parts/hydraulic_bench_press.jpg

[Murfman1967]

Hmmm, I wonder if I could add a punch and die to my bead roller. I have rolled 16 Ga stainless with no deflection, and the throat is almost 20"


http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x205/murfman_photo/Tools/DSC00939.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x205/murfman_photo/Tools/DSC00938.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x205/murfman_photo/Tools/DSC00937.jpg

It is all 1/2" plate, and the box is 2 x 2 x 1/4" wall the boxing sections are 5" wide because that is how wide the plate I found in the scrap bin was:flipoff2: It is a heavy Mofo, but it does not deflect. You could copy the design, and modify it for your needs. I'd be interested in whatever you come up with for the ram and dies.

Here is an idea, make the dimple dies in the conduit knockout sizes, then you could use greenlee knockouts for the holes. I have been planning on making some dimple dies to use with a greenlee 7806 hydraulic knock out tool. If you go this route, and make dies that work with either, you can easily Dimple things like boxtube that will not fit in a press, and use the press for speed in plate.

http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?greenlee_category_id=2&product_category=148&adodb_next_page=1&adodb_next_page=2&adodb_next_page=3&adodb_next_page=4&adodb_next_page=5&portalProcess_2=showGreenleeProductTemplate&upc_number=34293

The greenlee dies work up to 10 Ga, and I've seen the kits with dies all the way up to 2" conduit go for as low as 350.00 on Ebay

[Murfman1967]

The common Conduit die holes are:
1/2"=.885
3/4"=1.115
1"=1.362
1 1/4"=1.701
1 1/2"=1.951
2"=2.416
3"=3.539
4"=4.544
5"=5.675

They do make dimensional dies also (1" 2" etc...) but the Conduit ones are much easier to find as electricians everywhere use them.

If you made Dimple Dies in these sizes, I'd be all over them.

BTW the Greenlee hand ram is good for 8 tons, and that will do a 4.544" hole in 10 ga easily. So a 8-10 ton ram will be more than enough.

[Chris]

BTW the Greenlee hand ram is good for 8 tons, and that will do a 4.544" hole in 10 ga easily. So a 8-10 ton ram will be more than enough.
A 12 ton jack will barely complete an 1 1/2" dimple in 1/8 plate. You need a 20 ton to be doing things right.

[Bent Fabrications]

Good info... this is exactly why I wanted to post the idea before we build something.


That's a nice bead roller. You could easily build a bracket to hold a ram and bottom pedestal for the dies and add them to the roller. The throat on the roller would let you slide sheet metal in with no problems. I think you'd be limited if you wanted to dimple some channel or an already bent bracket.

I think the press above is nice, but with a taller depth would be more useful. The stroke wouldn't have to be any longer... maybe just a few different height bases?

[LazyDog]

I'd be interested in "buying" in.

[Booger Weldz]

i made a simple hole shaped 'hodler' for the dye on my employers gigantic press brake(i can bend 12' x 5/16'' on it or up to 2'' x 12'' or so)...the size of material(length and width,not thickness obviously) is nearly limitless for me to flare the hole(s). im making belly skids as one pice about 42''x48'' with dimpled holes in 10 gage....

[Bent Fabrications]

I'd love to have access to a nice brake. Sometimes fringe benefits from an employer are great!

As the level of craftsmanship grows in our sport, shops are really getting into more sheet metal work. Until recently we've "made due" with our limited tooling for sheet metal and built some killer stuff. However, with the strong influence of the desert racers becoming more common in our sport, I feel the shops that don't quickly tool up with some sheet metal equipment are going to get left in the dust of those that do.

I try to keep the lines in our chassis' clean and simple, so the average guy doesn't have to be a sheet metal expert to get a good looking interior put in. But having some nice equipment will make it even easier and ultimately cheaper for the customer if it takes us less time.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/Bentfabrications/LEVI/Cliffhangerbuildup180-1.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/Bentfabrications/LEVI/Cliffhangerbuildup232.jpg

[Booger Weldz]

i really like your chassis, especially that front area, nice combo of bends!

there is a night shift at my work and im on days, so i can come in after hours and build stuff and bend tube...ive saved thou$ands in fab and material costs(i get drop/scrap for free and pay cost for tubing)

anyway, the dimple dye station is a great idea, i just find it hard to get wide items in it because of the 'throat' you describe...good luck and keep building those sweet chassis!

[Murfman1967]

A 12 ton jack will barely complete an 1 1/2" dimple in 1/8 plate. You need a 20 ton to be doing things right.

I considered the fact that it takes more to dimple plate than to punch a hole in it. That changes my plans. Thanks for the info.

[Murfman1967]

BTW you might want to move this to the shop and tools forumfor more exposure

[PAToyota]

Count me in. That would come in handy around here.

[Eastcoast 4WD]

I'd be interested in the dimple die station too...

[Bent Fabrications]

I am still working on this.. I've got a few sets of dies and doing some experimenting. With just a few more people I'm sure we can make this happen.

-Tim

[sawzallsammy]

I would be interested if the price was reasonable. have any thoughts on a price point?

[Bent Fabrications]

I'm working on modifying an existing press to hold one of the hydraulic rams I think will work. After I get that one done, I'll have a good feel of what might work best in whatever we build. If the initial stuff works out, hopefully, I'll be able to keep the price very reasonable. I've even found a complete smaller press that may have the power to do what we need to source almost all the parts from and put into a larger press frame (that I build). If it works, I'll be able to just send out the press frame and point out what to buy that will give you all the other pieces necessary to make a cool press...

Give me a little time, I am still working and thinking on this... I'm just swamped in the shop right now.

-Tim

[mymlauto]

Count me in.

[madhouse]

me too

[scout800]

I'm interested.....

[jput]

me too

[Bent Fabrications]

Alright... I've been looking at stuff to source the parts to make building this more affordable. I happened to come across a new press from HF that I couldn't resist going ahead and buying.

Check it out here. (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44811)

I originally thought that I would source the ram from it to put into a whole new frame and sell the new press frame, but after it arrived at the door, I realized that it should be very easy to modify the existing frame to fit our needs. There are also some readily available upgrades right from HF!! I've seen these foot pedals (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98318)as low as $79 in a few of the sale fliers.

I'm going to move this over to the Shop and tool section to show how we modify it. Here is a few pics of it working right out of the box with no mods yet. The dies are from polyperformance made by Light racing. I'm still planning on setting it up with dies that will punch and press in one step, but for under $200 and the ability to pick it up local and save shipping... I don't see how I could build something and ship it for cheaper?

I'm planning on going ahead and getting the air over hydraulic foot pedal first, then modify the frame to move the ram out farther to have a 12" throat... this should cover most of the sheet metal we do and be easy to do with easy to find material. The last thing will be deciding what size punch and flare dies will work best for us and make a simple screw in adapter to hold the die into the already threaded ram. It all should be easy to do and I believe it will be versatile enough to be a super handy addition to the shop.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/Bentfabrications/parts/P1070519.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/Bentfabrications/parts/P1070520.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/Bentfabrications/parts/P1070521.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/Bentfabrications/parts/P1070526.jpg

[jeepnmatt]

i've been wanting to do something similar.

instead of using dimple dies, i want to use ironworker punches to make holes.

this may be the ticket! i'll have to make a holder that holds the punch on top, and a base for the die on the bottom...but that would save me a ton from starting from scratch.

Also, i think that foot pedal air/hydro was on sale recently...i'll see if i can find it.

[87JeepWrangler]

instead of using dimple dies, i want to use ironworker punches to make holes.

that sounds like a great idea. anyone have a chart that shows the tonnage required for various size holes Vs. metal thickness?

[Toddy]

To punch holes you will have to make darn sure you are centered over your die. This is why most iron workers have such a short stroke, less room to get off center. Why would you need anymore then like a 1" stroke to punch plate?

Toddy

[Bent Fabrications]

I'm planning on building a new head that will move the ram out to around a 14" throat. I'm also going to move it down to where it only has 10" of depth from the 19" it has now...

I should be able to use the existing tower and just make a new standoff that the ram mounts too and reinforce it back to the tower.... It looks VERY SIMPLE to modify.

That said, I think making a couple of "base plates/stands" for each die will be the ticket. I can easily see making a base stand that raises up to allow only one inch of stroke and using punch dies. Seems very feasible to build, just don't know how thick of material 10tons will punch? I've flared holes with several dies and thicknesses of material and it seems to be doing it's intended job (for my shop) well. The foot pedal will definitely make it nicer..

-Tim

[Jorge Meza]

Suscribed...

[supervert]

that sounds like a great idea. anyone have a chart that shows the tonnage required for various size holes Vs. metal thickness?

found from another thread, i have been thinking of the same thing. i am sick of drilling holes.

http://www.iron-workers.com/punch_tonnage_charts.html

[SirMrManGuy]

If you have the room, you should see if you can find a GIANT arbor press from some old machine shop. Our shop at school has one that is almost 8 feet tall, probably about 30 tons. Since it has a ratcheting pinion gear on it, its really quick to retract and reposition (no waiting for some slow ass hydraulic ram). Basically you can dimple holes as fast as you can pull the handle and move the work to the next hole.

[fabcam]

If you have the room, you should see if you can find a GIANT arbor press from some old machine shop. Our shop at school has one that is almost 8 feet tall, probably about 30 tons. Since it has a ratcheting pinion gear on it, its really quick to retract and reposition (no waiting for some slow ass hydraulic ram). Basically you can dimple holes as fast as you can pull the handle and move the work to the next hole and move all body parts out of the way.

fixed

[Bent Fabrications]

Did you guys watch THIS VIDEO (http://www.vansantent.com/videos/Punch-Flare_16_HYD.wmv) of Vansant's flared dies that punch and press the flare in one step?
I think I'm going to order one of these to see how it does in the HF press...

EDIT: Here is the link to the dies. (http://www.vansantent.com/sheet_metal_machines/punch_flare_tools.htm)

-Tim

[fabcam]

Did you guys watch THIS VIDEO (http://www.vansantent.com/videos/Punch-Flare_16_HYD.wmv) of Vansant's flared dies that punch and press the flare in one step?
I think I'm going to order one of these to see how it does in the HF press...

EDIT: Here is the link to the dies. (http://www.vansantent.com/sheet_metal_machines/punch_flare_tools.htm)

-Tim

Those are for very light material; 16ga or thinner.

.

[Bent Fabrications]

I'm just thinking of using those as a one step process to speed up things like battery boxes, small sheet metal projects, little side panels for stuff... things that can quickly be trimmed out and a few quick dimples thrown in for additional strength and looks. I'll still have my Lite racing set for the bigger stuff, but for sheet metal... I'm thinking those one step dies would be a big time saver.. That was the idea from the beginning.

[SirMrManGuy]

fixed
Well I'd hoped you'd be smart enough not to use your right hand to crush the left.... :flipoff2: