military vehicle speeds?

[Seabass]

I would love to build an old military vehicle as a tow/camp/expedition vehicle but one of the things that concerns me is there relitive low speed capabilities(I live in southern california:D) I was looking at unimogs and dueces mostly older stuff because its the only thing I can really consider affording and I don't know where I could even get some of the newer stuff. I saw something that looked like a duece hauling ass on the freeway a little while back and haven't been able to figure out what it was. It was a military truck and looked like to me that it had a decompression chamber in the bed. So all rambling to an end my question is what kind of cruising speeds do some of the trucks that you could buy as surplus have. And where can you buy em.
Dunno if there "military" but I'd like to know how fast tatras and the 4x semi's like mann can go to. Thanks.

[soup4856]

The old Duece was slow off the line but you could get them up to 55 65 with out much trouble. But you would definately want to work out some kind of power steering. But for as big of a truck as they were the cab is pretty small. The newer 5 tons you can those hauling ass, as well as the newest Stewart and Stevens LMTV family 2.5 and 5 ton trucks really move out.

[Seabass]

Any chance you would know where abouts some one could purchase newer miltary surplus?

[The Adam Blaster]

Any chance you would know where abouts some one could purchase newer miltary surplus?

I'm curious about this too...

I know the 'mogs will top out at like 50 mph unless you get the ones with "fast" axle conversions, and even those i think hit the wall about 55/60 mph.

[guidolyons]

Any chance you would know where abouts some one could purchase newer miltary surplus?

http://www.govliquidation.com/

[Seabass]

I spent the better part of the evening on that sight last night, they mostly have older stuff. lots of dueces though. do know what the restrictions on buying from them are?

[rockcrawler01]

The old duces have a govenor on them.
Pop it off and you will get 70 downhill with the wind behind you.
Oh and when you pass the old man out of the convoy at that speed
look out. I know.

[misterfubar]

I've driven a Deuce up and down I-35 between both borders, and just about coast to coast and empty some of them can maintain 55-60ish on flat ground. Loaded up don't expect to be able to do that. Also if you really want a Deuce make sure you invest in some good hearing protection. Driving any distance without it will make your brain numb.

[Diesel Smoke]

With old trucks, like 40's to 70's era rigs you can mix and match transmissions and brownie transmission. For example, take a 40's era M-5H-6 (International). Powered by a 361 6 cylinder with a 5 speed and a 3 speed brownie. Tops speed of 45-maybe 50. Now look at a 40's ear KB-8 log truck (again International) powered by a 451 6 cylinder, 5 speed and a 3 speed brownie. Top speed is 80+. Why?? Because the Log truck has a OD on the 5 speed and an OD on the brownie. It's got the power for the mountains to get the logs and the speed for the highways. After all you are paid by the trip, so you've got to be able to burn. The M5 has a no OD on the 5 speed or the brownie. It didn't need speed, just the power to haul and pull massive amounts of weight. If you are really interested start looking up SAE transmission adapters and stop by your local medium/heavy duty wrecking yard. With as much wheelbase as these trucks have, you've got some options.

[TrikeKid]

The old deuces benefit a ton from a straight diesel conversion if you ended up with a multi-fuel one. My friend's dad had one that was converted to straight diesel and a little larger tire and was good for 60 with just people in it. The guy he bought that from had one with a small cam Cummins swapped in and even bigger tires that handled the freeway.

[BeefCakeScout]

I don't even know if you can get the newer lmtv/fmtv's yet. but even THEY top at 65 downhill. and they are terrible on the back. your best bet would be to research and see what other people have done speed wise. I've never met a military vehicle(other than a 915, which is just an everyday 10 wheel freight) that would crack 65.too bad too....i would KILL to get my own HET someday.

p.s. don't reply and tell me how hmmwv's will go fast, cause they aren't expedition type rigs.

[Filthy McChevy]

I had this truck going over 55 the only time I took it out on the highway and It had some vibration issues that kept me from trying to go 60. It felt like the tires were badly out of balance. That was on a flat highway at 10,000 ft elev. so I think it could easily maintain 55 at sea level. It is kind of expensive to register due to it's weight so I just use it around the yard. (or in parades) and for dry storage. I got it and another one of the same year from GSA auctions, for crazy low prices.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t75/bbigtn/Summer04083600x450.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t75/bbigtn/Yardwork002600x402.jpg

[Seabass]

You happen to know if those t-cases are divorced? if so I was thinking of throwing a 12vcummins with a two wheel drive47re in front of it, and if it really had room I'd consider a gear splitter too.

I didn't see any one bidding on the dueces. what are they selling for and whats involved in shipping something like that? I don't live near any of the places there being stored at so "running condition unknown " kinda worries me. Did you get to check yours out before you bought em?

How difficult is the maintenance on one of these. I can turn a wrench with some of the best, but the size of these things makes me wonder.

Thanks

[Filthy McChevy]

The transfer cases are divorced. I have bought a few smaller trucks from gov't liquidation, If I can not inspect them I buy them figuring they are parts vehicles. You won't know why they are classified as obsolete or unserviceable without checking them out. Sometimes the ones near me say something like "drove onto the site", thats a good sign anyway. Just be sure a SF97 will be issued. On the other hand every vehicle I have bought from GSA auctions has run well. And I have bought 5 vehicles from GSA auctions. It just takes a while sometimes to find one you want. Believe it or not I have not had to do much other than routine maintenance to mine. Freshen up the batteries once in a while and you're good to go, and I do searches on ebay for parts just for the heck of it. I got a brand new pto for one of them on ebay. Paid more for the pto than I did for the truck.

[SOCALXJ]

My m-715 top speed was about 60mph. I know others that have swapped axles, motors, complete drive train and can do 80mph no problem now. Stock most military rigs are slow as hell and can barely get out of their own way.

Here's a video clip of my rig on the 55 freeway here in socal.. not as big as a duece but same idea. Noisy as hell and t-case screaming..

http://media.putfile.com/m715-Top-Speed

[rockcrawln]

In CA you can't legally do more then 55 with a duece anyway.

[ALABAMA MADMAN]

http://www.tnjmurray.com/

here's one that sells ready to ride dueces and 5 tons.

[ALABAMA MADMAN]

a few more,
http://www.easternsurplus.net/
http://www.memphisequipment.com/
http://www.idahomotorpool.com/

[Seabass]

Thanks for the links!

Why can't you go over 55 legally? box on frame commercial trucks can do 65.

[caseyray63]

I had this truck going over 55 the only time I took it out on the highway and It had some vibration issues that kept me from trying to go 60. It felt like the tires were badly out of balance. That was on a flat highway at 10,000 ft elev. so I think it could easily maintain 55 at sea level. It is kind of expensive to register due to it's weight so I just use it around the yard. (or in parades) and for dry storage. I got it and another one of the same year from GSA auctions, for crazy low prices.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t75/bbigtn/Summer04083600x450.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t75/bbigtn/Yardwork002600x402.jpg
I put a historical vehical plate on my duce, it dropped the weight fees off and now only cost me about $50 a year to register.

[Filthy McChevy]

I put a historical vehical plate on my duce, it dropped the weight fees off and now only cost me about $50 a year to register.

I tried to do that here but if there is a way the DMV clerks can't help me find it. No big deal for now, it doesn't need Insurance or filling the tank with $800 bucks worth of fuel. I just enjoy having 6x6s.

[Elwenil]

Seabass, all you would ever need or want to know about Military Trucks is at www.steelsoldiers.com

For what you want to do, I would not look at anything other than a 900 series 5 ton. Anything else you look at is going to need a lot of modifications to get what you want out of it. And as you may have guessed, they are not cheap. An M35A3 might be another consideration with it's Cat engine and Allison automatic, but they are still fairly rare in civilian hands and bring a big price tag. I don't know where you live but you may want to check on the local restrictions on owning such vehicles. A Deuce is pretty easy to slip under the radar due to it's lower weight capacity, larger trucks can require a CDL, weight taxes and fees, etc.

[Seabass]

Thanks elminel, I've been doing alot of reading on there. their registration and email link are no good so I haven't been able to do anything but read on there but when it's fixxed I plan on getting a screen name over there. What ballpark are we talking about for both 5 ton an 2 1/2 ton trucks?

I'm sure its broken down some where I just haven't found it yet, what trucks came with what options? I've seen n/a diesels, turbo diesels, manual, auto, air shift, air brakes. I know for the most part they were all purpose built to suit the needs of the application it was being built for but there has to be some rough outline. Thanks again for all the input.

[Elwenil]

M44/M35 series trucks could be old gas engines, and both turbo and non-turbo multifuel engines. I believe all A2 trucks are multifuel and a lot of have had the fuel compensator bypassed to run straight diesel. The "multifuel" bit is a point of confusion with a lot of people, especially on Ebay. The multifuel engine will NOT run on "anything". There are a few specific military fuels it was designed to run on, but generally likes diesel the best. All Deuces are air over hydraulic brakes. Basically this uses air pressure generated by an engine driven pump to boost the brakes much like a normal civilian truck uses vacuum. They are not considered to have "air brakes".

Most modern 5 ton trucks both 800 and 900 series will be the NHC250 Cummins diesel engine. 800s are 5 speed, 900s are Allison automatics. The 900 series also has another engine available but it's model escapes me at the moment. It is also a diesel though. The older 5 tons, I generally refer to them as the 50 series but that is not actually correct, can have a gas engine a Mack diesel or a slightly different model of the multifuel engine found in the Deuce. I know for sure that the 800 and 900 series have normal air brakes similar to what is found on a semi. I'm not sure on the older models.

Those are the basics as I remember them. And yes, they have been modified over the years with assorted upgrades and you sort of have to take them on a truck by truck basis. An "A2" is not always an A2 anymore after it has been in civilian hands for many years and many "old" trucks were kept in the military inventory for years and rebuilt so it may be up to the spec of an 80s model truck.

As for the registration issues at SteelSoldiers, there should be an email link to hook up with Mike or Chris and help you with getting registered. It's happened in the past a few times and they should be able to help you. If you can't find a link, PM me your Email address and I'll forward it to them and see if they can get you fixed up.

[mdd0127]

I just took my Deuce on it's first long haul(45 miles) today. It's an M292A2 expandable van with a non turbo engine. It weighs 23,980 lbs empty. It was pushing hard and roaring like a tornado to go 35 up into the mountains but cruised at 50 nicely on flat ground. If I was planning on driving it often, a motor swap would be the first thing on the list. Even at 35 though, it's still one of the coolest things I've ever driven. I'm a little deaf and still vibrating though. The 9.00 x 20 tires use tubes and flat spot when parked for a while and the suspension is designed for hauling, not cruising. The lack of power steering is a bitch on pavement but barely noticeable in the dirt. I'll tell you one thing though. That truck will go wherever you point it. I'm working on clearing a remote spot in the mountains outside of Atascadero, CA and paln on living in it out there. I'll be posting up some pics when I get it settled in. There are rattle snakes everywhere out there though. I'll get some pics of them too.

[Elwenil]

MDD, if that truck still has the LDS-427-2 engine, be careful with it. They are not known for being very reliable.

[mdd0127]

I believe it's an LDS-465 but I'm not sure. I really don't plan on driving it too much. I'd like to find a 900 series, add another 5-ton front, and put a HEMTT cab on it. Then I could swap over the expansible body and the truck would be more appropriate for the weight of the box.

[Elwenil]

Have you seen the "Baby HEMTT" build over at SteelSoldiers? Deuce frame, 2 5 ton axles, Cummins 6BT, Allison auto, HEMTT cab and a lot of fab. It's a nice piece. Also DMA is restoring a HEMTT and has posted a lot of interesting stuff in his thread.

[mywillys]

Hey Danny,

The engine is a LD 465 (no turbo but it has a muffler!) Are you gonna stay over there for a while? Change your mind?

be safe and have fun

[czechsix]

Seabass - yer pretty close to me, I've got a M35A2 just south of Camp Pendleton. PM me or something and I'll give you all sorts of info. I'd also suggest, like some do here, that you look at the 900 series - unless you want to go primitive, and then the deuce is a great choice. Heck, I can even talk Tatra and Unimog to you too - I've had them also.

All fun stuff, and as with everything...pro and con

[Seabass]

Awsome. I'll have to take you up on that offer!

[czechsix]

I believe it's an LDS-465 .....and put a HEMTT cab on it. .

I've got two complete HEMTT (actually LVS cabs) down San Diego way that I'll let go cheap, if you really want to do this.........:D

[BigBlueToy]

The diesel shop next door to where I work rebuilds trucks for the Canadian military. they used to have a shit load of deuces, now its mostly HEMMTs. I know a couple guys there and I do a lot of machine work for tranny rebuilds. I could probably get my hands on any gearing info you might need. I also know a guy In montreal who imports military surplus Defenders from europe and they are sweet! he can also get Rover 101s if you give him some time.

[The Adam Blaster]

BigBlue, does your Montreal connection have a website at all?

[Trango]

I just caught this post. I have an M35a2 that I swapped a Cat 3208T into. There are a few concerns getting a deuce to go fast, in no particular order.

1. Steering / caster / possible conversion to power steering
2. Suspension / looseness.
3. Tires - quality, wheels, and overall height/radius
4. Gearing, from axles to transmission (through to the redline of your chosen engine).
5. Horsepower
6. Cab comfort for long drives

Fix all of those and you'll have a truck that drives pretty cherry. :)

[czechsix]

Heh, yeah, and don't forget one of the big issues.....brakes, or the lack of them :D

Way back when I had time and space I was thinking about doing a cab stretch to a four door, or at least a sleeper style, super singles in 14.5x20, a real PS system (not the air assist), and dropping in the norwegian lockers. Got no time for it though, gotta do other things. Hell, at one time I was thinking about doing a twinsteer with the HEMTT cab - there's a terrific Tatra model that's configured like that. Works great.....but no time.

[Seabass]

Are the brakes that bad? I figured I wouldn't be getting anywhere near what these things were designed to carry or pull and it'd be alright.

Biggest tires I've ever put alot of miles on were 37's. I know all the big stuff is usually bias ply. so besides flat spotting I'm guessing they aren't rated for 65-70mph?

Sloppy suspension? how so?

Thanks

[Elwenil]

This is really a bad place to get info on US Military vehicles. Pop over to SteelSoldiers and you will get more than enough info on Deuces, 5 tons, HEMMTs, etc to satisfy your wildest craving. Also, the brakes on a Deuce, when properly maintained, are quite good.

[czechsix]

Well, let's put it this way, regarding brakes.

It's a vehicle that weighs right around 13.5K in its basic config, brakes are _single circuit_ AOH drums. Towed load rating is 10K, on and off road, and that load rating is due to the braking system. These things were designed in the 1950's, when the AOH/single circuit was adequate for what they were tasked to do, but there're real reasons that the newer trucks - M35a3, newer 5 tons, etc, have dual circuit air brakes. Those reasons are efficiency, safety, and capacity. If you've ever tried to tow, say, 20 or 25k, or even flat tow another duece behind a duece - you'll see what those brakes are like.

Well maintained, and not overloaded, they're adequate for the vehicle. If you tow, get trailer brakes of some sort.

Tires? They work, I've run thousands of miles (actually, probably tens of thousands) on NDCC's, but I like the Michelin XL's better. I've ran them on the deuces, WC's, M37's, Unimogs. Either way, if the tires are in decent shape, 65 is workable. If they're lumpy and you feel it when they're new, get them shaved, or ignore it. It's a truck, fer chrissakes.

Sloppy suspensions? When new, they're tight and work great. When you get a forty year old surplus vehicle that's been worked hard all it's life by a bunch of 18 year olds, guess what? Things wear. Suspensions can be rebuilt. I got a quote a while back, for instance, from national spring for $400 to re-arch the front springs to stock. Mine are saggy right now. Not noticeable driving, but they've definitely taken a set.

This isn't such a bad place to get info, many of us are on steelsoldiers, the G, etc and have BTDT. Heck, I'm a plank owner on steelsoldiers, and I'll stand behind my observations. But if you want to go over to a specifically MV board, SteelSoldiers is a good choice.

[mdd0127]

The HEMTT clone will happen. It may be next year before I really get going on it but IT WILL HAPPEN. I passed one on the highway yesterday and the bug has bit. I LOVE my deuce but there's just something special about the HEMTT's. Steelsoldiers is a great forum. Good people over there for sure. I'll get in touch about the cab when I get closer. I need to get the one I have set up first though.

[czechsix]

How about $125 for two complete cabs? Yep, I've gotta get rid of them - these are the cabs that came out of barstow a few years back, but unlike most of them, these are complete......one of them has the roof hatch, which is hard to find to begin with, one is a regular. I've got some extra doors and glass I can throw in too (how about a four door HEMTT, eh?)......git 'em while they're hot...just south of pendleton. ....c'mon, start storing parts for that project, now's the time. :)

[mdd0127]

VERY tempting! A 4 door would be insane. I'll see what I can come up with and let you know ASAP.

[czechsix]

cool. You build it and I want a damned ride in it when you're done! I'll email you my phone number, call anytime.

I might even be able to deliver those cabs - got truck and trailer, two'll fit easy on there.

[M-1028]

I own 2 dueces, M35a2's (one of which I drive all the time) and there is no way in hell they will touch 70 mph, with stock tires and drivetrain. At 50 mph they are around 2200 rpm and the redline is 2600. Even if you took the govenor off and just kept your foot to the floor the big multifuels will come apart in no time.

[mdd0127]

cool. You build it and I want a damned ride in it when you're done! I'll email you my phone number, call anytime.

I might even be able to deliver those cabs - got truck and trailer, two'll fit easy on there.

I got your email. I need to figure out if I have a place to store them until I can get the project rolling. I'll be in touch for sure!

[Seabass]

Even if it's just storage for now you know you gotta post pics:D

[mdd0127]

Pics??? I'll post the whole damn build! I'm waiting on some money to come in and will be picking up the cabs soon.

[czechsix]

Sounds good, they're waiting for you. About 1700# each, both'll fit on a 16' trailer, easy.

[albersondh]

The HEMTT and LVS are very similar. The LVS is the USMC version and it has a bit of a different engine configuration and yaw steering on the front two axles. This is nice for soft sand; you can steer side to side and snake through most stuff, until you bury the axles. Perfect for your next amphibious landing…. These things are crazy heavy and they WILL get stuck, especially in deep soft terrain. The LVS (logistical vehicle system) and the HEMTT are both 8V92TA Detroit 2 strokes. The LVS is strictly mechanical injection, while newer HEMTT's have electronically controlled injection. When you get stuck call an M88 tank retriever or a GOOD HEMTT/LVS wrecker operator, nothing else is going to get you out. The HEMTT is way easier to work on than the LVS. The LVS has the fan and radiator situated on top of the engine, and the LVS engine has no accessory belts, everything is gear driven or hydraulically driven. The LVS is a hydraulic nightmare. The 8V92TA is a great motor but it’s a dirty bastard and is prone to wet stacking. It’s a 2 stroke what do you want.....

The M923/M939 series A0 and A1 5 tons are both NHC250 Cummins powered. This is the motor of choice because the later A2's have the 8.3CTA Cummins, which is a much smaller turbo motor that is gutless off the line or loaded up. There is a governor adjustment that can help out with the gutless part but then it likes to smoke some and MPG suffers a lot. The A0 has smaller dual tire/wheel assemblies while the A1 and later 5ton has the super singles and a bed lift (tire clearance) that you would want. I would go with a M923A1. My next choice would be a USMC super single converted M813, this would be cheaper because there older and a 5 speed manual, but basically the same as a M923. The NHC250 is BULLET PROOF and it’s very easy to shim up the governor and oversize the main fuel passage on the metering pump. I have seen a M939 get flipped axles up (no shit). A MTVR wrecker turned it right side up. Cleaned off the fluids that leaked, toped off all the fluids, and off it went. It was the AoA version so the cab acted like a roll cage and no one got hurt too bad.

Then there is the FMTV Stewart Stevenson variants. These are IMO junk. Nice motors (Cat) but they don’t seem to do as well off road as the older 5 ton's. I have not wrenched on these very much but the guys I know that do hate them. They seem to be broke down a lot.

The absolute ultimate would be an MTVR: http://www.oshkoshdefense.com/pdf/Oshkosh_MTVR_brochure_07.pdf

They are FAST (cat C12) and ride like a dream, full independent suspension, and more power than you will know what to do with. The newer 6.5 turbo HMMWV's can’t even hang with these monsters. Even the lighter M1114 can’t hang with an MTVR. Hands down the best tactical wheeled vehicle ever made in the US (medium) and arguably the world. Nothing in this size of truck (7 ton) can even come close off road. This would be my pick for a medium to heavy truck.

For a lighter rig I would source a CUCV and swap in a 6.5 or 6.5T. It should bolt right in. You would have to get a 12VDC cold start and shut off solenoid from Stanydyne if the 6.5 is from a HMMWV (24VDC) because that part of the CUCV (12/24VDC) is 12V but otherwise it should drop right in. This would be a cheap venture. The CUCV sits on a Dana 60 (front) and a GM14 bolt (detroit is standard) out back. The model I rocked for a while was a contact/maintenance truck and it had a camper type shelter with built in shelves and storage areas. It also had a PTO that made power for the on-board welder and 110AC out. I called it my Cadillac and I lived in it for the better part of a year. It was an M1031: http://www.m201.de/armytrucks/1-1_4-ton/m1031/index.html
Pretty much the closest thing to an out of the box light expeditionary type vehicle under $30k I think you would find. Also, it will run on multiple fuels, DF1/DF2, JP8, ect…..

[Elwenil]

Another note on the LVS and HEMTT cabs is that they are not the same and will not swap. They have a lot of part in common, but are a different design. A SteelSoldiers member tried to use one to replace the cab on his HEMTT but found they aren't the same, but was able to use parts to repair his cab I believe.

[crashhawk]

One thing to look at on the duce is head gasket longevity. If you up grade the turbo or pump you'll most likely end up with head gasket issues, and as some one who's had WAY too many of the White engines apart you need to be careful with those head studs. Otherwise, you'll have the same issues.
My suggestion would be disabling the compinsator and effectively making it a deisil only truck.

Oh yeah, from mantinance standpoint, the A3s are a BITCH to work on. Another prime example of the military wanting to make the new MTV series witout spending the cash on a new platform. They can be made reliable, but be prepared to deal with all the bugs that made their production run so short.

Just my 2 pennies though...

[mdd0127]

I'll be keeping my deuce and heading back to Colorado next week. It's going to be a looong expensive trip but it will be fun! I really tore up my knee and haven't been able to do the work I've been doing out here in Cali. The HEMTT clone will have to wait until I figure out a way to use my brains to make money instead of brawn. I probably won't be able to walk without limping ever again. Damn bum knee! The M292a2 is perfectly suitable for what I need and speed really isn't as important to me as it used to be. If you get stuck behind a big green truck towing a Toyota down the highway going 40mph, don't get pissed off. Most likely, I'll have the pedal to the metal and a shit eating grin on my face.

[czechsix]

Sounds like a fun and pricy trip, almost be worth it to shoot down to TJ and pick up a few hundred gallons of numero dos - don't try it in the duece though. Don't ask me how I know.

Careful with that knee too, I ripped my right one apart about a dozen years ago, still not working right, and never will. Well, keep in touch, those cabs haven't gone anywhere in a while, and they'll probably wind up being stacked in a corner and mothballed. I'm really trying not to scrap them, they're too nice.

[unimogken]

I have always loved the look of the HEMTT's!

I sure wish I had a use for those cabs!

[czechsix]

Oh ye of little faith!

Get a cab and figure out a use for it later! You know you want to!

[Elwenil]

Build a baby HEMTT:

http://steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3020&highlight=hemtt

http://steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4161&highlight=hemtt

http://steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=23526&highlight=hemtt