Just wanna get everyones opinion on what would be the advisable way to go. I'm soon to aquire another Sami, and want to immeadiatly start tweeking it, sooooooo, With in mind I want to run 35x15-15TSLsx Sidekick motor and 4.16 case, what axles do I run? I own a set of Toyota 8.0's and a Dana 30fr, 44rear out of a CJ-5. I could also narrow a Ford 9" I hve also. IDEAS Fellas

just my exp. toy 8" much better then the 30 my 02

Have to thinlk about gear options d30 tops 4 something 44 5.89
9" ok Im not sure but would you be able to get a match gear wise front and rear toys 5.29 and 5.71

Originally posted by SJ410Bark
[B run 35x15-15TSLsx Sidekick motor and 4.16 case, what axles do I run? [/B]

Well starters I would delete your last post if it differs from this one. Then I would go with the 6?to 1 gears so you can stay in the 4.## range for the added strengh of the R&P. As far as the axels go my .02 is with the dana stuff BUT not the 30 find a 44 out of a Waggy. D44 warn axels and CTM joints and you are set. Now keep in mind I have never delt with berf's before but from what I have read they are not as stronge and the dana set up I mentioned.

I tried to erase it, don't know how to though. The Idea between the 30fr, or toy was I own them. Buying a 44 would take $$$, which I don't have to spend. Thanks anyway.

I also already own the 4.16:1 rocklobster t-case. A 6:1 costs $900 I do not have.

Either axle will require a fair amount of beefing to work well. There's a super kit for the 30, or super birf's for the toy, take your pick. The 9" is definitely more axle than you need.

They toys will work fine never heard of people having problems with em. on zuks that is ask az rockrockcrawler bout em.

I think the Dana 30 tops out at 4.56, not to mention the Toy has larger shafts and some other really nice features. IMHO.

Yeah like removable 3rd members. I don't think the dana does

There is a endless supply of aftermarket parts for Toy axles, not to mention one of the coolest things Hy-steer arms.

personally i like the waggy dana44's front and rear. with the choices you gave though you should stick to the toy axles. they are a better choice.

9" rear = Low pinion

Go with Toy' sor Dana's.

Do some searching - this topic is re-hashed every other week or so.

Originally posted by Wilson
Either axle will require a fair amount of beefing to work well. There's a super kit for the 30, or super birf's for the toy, take your pick. The 9" is definitely more axle than you need.

You don't need to beef the Toy axles, especially with that gearing. Just make sure your steering stops are set properly and your birfs should live a long happy life. FWIW I am not going superbirfs until I go 38's on my next rig.

Originally posted by fatkid
I think the Dana 30 tops out at 4.56, not to mention the Toy has larger shafts and some other really nice features. IMHO.

Nope, I´ve got 4.88...

Originally posted by Shawn_C
Yeah like removable 3rd members. I don't think the dana does

THAT´S prolly the greatest single advantage of the Toys. It´s a real PITA to set up Danas, laying on your stomach / back under the truck, using trial and error trying to get the fawking right shims for pinion depth and backlash...

However, in terms of after-market or junkyard replacement, it´s hard to beat Danas. At least here in Brasil, that it.......

the d30 now has 4.88 avaliable as someone mentioned.

IMHO i think everyone is upgrade happy. I think a D30 on a zuke would hold up fine with CTM joints in the front. Heres why...

I ran a TJ w/4.56s (4.0L) with 33TSLs and only ever broke u-joints. I see lots of TJers running 4.56/4.88 behind the 4 bangers with 33s and bigger now with little or no problems (some with CTM joints not all).

Were talking a TJ thats 4,000 lbs or so with an engine that makes ? hp/torque (ie more than a zuke or 1.6)

I see people running 35"/36" tsls/SXs ets.. on a D30s with warn shafts and CTMs with sucess...

Now for my disclaimer... not any of these people were in competition or were really hard wheelers (imho) but their stuff was holding up...

Just remember power / weight and see where your stuff fits in..

+ you can knock off a good 1/2" on a d30 with little / no work

just some opinions from the other side of the table...

-yager
(just remember your reading opinions from someone whos choppoing off stock frame rails to save 2" so what do i know)

I´m running 35" TSL/SX tires on an open-knuckled D30 front, stuffed with 4.88 gears and an ARB. No problems so far.

What suprises most people however isn´t this, but the fact that I´m running another open-knuckled D30 front axle, flipped around IN THE REAR. And this one´s welded...

I haven´t broken anything (yet) and I wheel relatively hard (I bent badly both of my stock axles). However, it must be taken into consideration that 100% of my wheeling is in deep mud and ruts. No rocks here...

TIFWIW....

I had 2 Jeeps with Dana 30's in the front, Both XJ's.. A toy front would be strongr, not to mention about the same clearance as Danas have a cast housing, where Toys have a stamped steel housing.. The problems i had with D30 Axles were no Hubs, But I put in a $$$ Kit for that... You may have an earlier axle, if so, its standard rotation, where as XJ's had a stronger Reverse Rotations gearset in them... Also I bent the tubes on all the axles I used, on a Cherokee (yes, more weight, but not more than a Toy truck for sure) and the ball joints were bad to bend? or some crap, making the tops of my 33" TSL's lean in so bad that it was super noticeable sitting in a parking lot... Almost all D 30's are 27 spline, toys are 30... Go with a heavier axle, you'll be glad you did, as getting a D30 up to par is more cash than you will spend on a Junkyard 44, or a Toy even...

Sorry to Rant, but if you plan on 33" tires or so, you'll still stress that axle out with any gearing at all, not to mention the problem with the tires leaning inwards at the top after a year or so of wheeling had...

Oh yeah, I only had a crawl ratio of about 46:1 and an old old V-6 Engine and still managed to tear it apart a few times... U-Joints ( that was a 297, not the smaller 260) and Pinions were bad to go, and shafts were a usual break on the trail...

But at the same time, this is a Zuk, so mabe it will hold up on it...

I would run a Toy front and the D44 rear. The toy is the best choice you presented for the front. It's got the same 1.3" 30-spline shafts you would have if you ran out and bought a D44. While it's true that birfs are the definite weak spot, they aren't such a big deal in a zuk. Most of the hardcore guys in here on toy axles have popped a birf or two, at the most. If it becomes a problem, you can run longfields for $230, which is cheaper than a set of CTMs for a 44.

If you have a D44 for the back right now, then I would run either that or the Toy. If you don't own a Toy rearThe two are pretty much a wash in back. Same axleshafts (A D44 shaft slides into a toy carrier) and everything. You can build the D44 cheaper than the Toy axle (lockers and gears are cheaper). It depends how much you value having the diffs interchange - if you don't have any interest in carrying a third member that fits either end, I'd go D44.

Something else to consider, though - width. I have a buddy running the same dana axles you have right now in his CJ5. They are NARROW. Maybe not Zuk narrow, but still... they make my toy look wide. Even with 3-ish inch backspacing, his tires still rub on the fenderwells and springs. He really needs some 2"BS wheels.

Toy axles work well on zuks because it's like putting fullwidth axles on a jeep in terms of width, they are still relatively small and light, and they're plenty strong.

One last thing - lots of the guys who have swapped in a D44 on their IFS Toys have run 5.38 in the 44 and 5.29 in the Toy for years. If you do the math, that's about a 1% difference in gearing. You get more binding from turning in 4-low than you would from that... so that shouldn't be a deciding factor.

Originally posted by billj


THAT´S prolly the greatest single advantage of the Toys. It´s a real PITA to set up Danas, laying on your stomach / back under the truck, using trial and error trying to get the fawking right shims for pinion depth and backlash...

However, in terms of after-market or junkyard replacement, it´s hard to beat Danas. At least here in Brasil, that it.......


bill, your mil.spec CJ5 isnt by any chance a Ford U-50???


http://www.pbase.com/abudschitz/ford


stock 4.89 dana44 shackle reversal and stock 4speed ... how's that for a beginning ...


saludos do chile, alfred

I would run a Toy front and the D44 rear.

that has to be one of the dumbest thing's i've read from someone in a long time!

The toy is the best choice you presented for the front. It's got the same 1.3" 30-spline shafts you would have if you ran out and bought a D44. While it's true that birfs are the definite weak spot, they aren't such a big deal in a zuk.

while this is true, do you have personal experiance/hands on to back it up?


Most of the hardcore guys in here on toy axles have popped a birf or two, at the most. If it becomes a problem, you can run longfields for $230, which is cheaper than a set of CTMs for a 44.

ummm $185 x2 = more than $306 delivered ;) if he's got one set of toy axles and bust's a birf he's spending more than CTM's, remember not everyone has cores...

If you have a D44 for the back right now, then I would run either that or the Toy. If you don't own a Toy rearThe two are pretty much a wash in back.

yea... ok... before making stupid blanket statment's get a tape measure and check lug paterns ;) toy = 6lug CJ = 5 lug.. do you want to carry 2 spares?? early CJ's are WAY narrower than toy axles also...



Same axleshafts (A D44 shaft slides into a toy carrier) and everything.

ummmmmm, no comment....

You can build the D44 cheaper than the Toy axle (lockers and gears are cheaper).

got number to back that though?? i think you're crudely mistaken again...

It depends how much you value having the diffs interchange - if you don't have any interest in carrying a third member that fits either end, I'd go D44.


if you really think hes gonna blow up a toy diff or a D44 with that gearing choice on those tires you have issues or someone did a shitty setup!

Something else to consider, though - width. I have a buddy running the same dana axles you have right now in his CJ5. They are NARROW. Maybe not Zuk narrow, but still... they make my toy look wide. Even with 3-ish inch backspacing, his tires still rub on the fenderwells and springs. He really needs some 2"BS wheels.


ok earlier you stated that the D44 rear toy front is a good combo, now you say it's way narrower?? a contradiction, or do you think the front being 5+in wider is cool?

Toy axles work well on zuks because it's like putting fullwidth axles on a jeep in terms of width, they are still relatively small and light, and they're plenty strong.


i just put toy axles under MY zuk today, V6 5.29's front and rear, and they're still to narrow for my taste...

One last thing - lots of the guys who have swapped in a D44 on their IFS Toys have run 5.38 in the 44 and 5.29 in the Toy for years. If you do the math, that's about a 1% difference in gearing. You get more binding from turning in 4-low than you would from that... so that shouldn't be a deciding factor.



ya.. 1.7% and it does bind... i've run this for over 2 yrs on 2 rig's... if i could afford a rear HP 60 i would in a heartbeat to match them up!

Originally posted by billj
I´m running 35" TSL/SX tires on an open-knuckled D30 front, stuffed with 4.88 gears and an ARB. No problems so far.
I haven´t broken anything (yet) and I wheel relatively hard (I bent badly both of my stock axles). However, it must be taken into consideration that 100% of my wheeling is in deep mud and ruts. No rocks here...

TIFWIW....

Funny you say that cuz i wheel with lots of people who say the same thing, then one of them pops a birf and says "must have been an old birf with a million miles on it"
I say "NO, this shit happens" They usually dont believe me but a good trail or two changes alot of opinions in a hurry. Same shit with a d30 or whatever, even a zook front, "dont lock it " i say but what do i know ? I know your gonna be workin on your rig to get off the trail, thats what i know !!! :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Titanium


Funny you say that cuz i wheel with lots of people who say the same thing, then one of them pops a birf and says "must have been an old birf with a million miles on it"
I say "NO, this shit happens" They usually dont believe me but a good trail or two changes alot of opinions in a hurry. Same shit with a d30 or whatever, even a zook front, "dont lock it " i say but what do i know ? I know your gonna be workin on your rig to get off the trail, thats what i know !!! :flipoff2:


Could be, but for now I´ll leave it as-is. The D30s have a big advantage over D44s in one aspect, that being pumpkin size. Its small size, combined with the 35" tires, gives me a lot more ground clearance that the guys I wheel with. That´s important in mud and rut running...

Originally posted by billj
Could be, but for now I´ll leave it as-is. The D30s have a big advantage over D44s in one aspect, that being pumpkin size

Ohh Bill. Let's not drag the D30 into this discussion.. :) After exploding a D30 stub recently, I could'nt get that stuff off my truck fast enough (mainly 'cause it took so many tools to beat the broken parts off it)! I've never seen a D44 stub explode like that!

If you want to talk rut clearance, I've gone places guys with 36's cant, because of my offset diffs! Get the diffs out of the center, and ruts are no longer a problem. ;)

It comes down to, D44 very strong for a rig under 4K lbs. With much better turning (I'm 5" longer than stock, and at least 10" wider and my turning circle is 2 foot SMALLER than a stock Sami).

Which one (D44 or Toy) is better, just depends on your vehicle and what you want to do with it....

Originally posted by fatkid
I think the Dana 30 tops out at 4.56, not to mention the Toy has larger shafts and some other really nice features. IMHO.

umm, no.

4.88s were a stock ratio, and I've heard of 5.13s for the 30.

Originally posted by The Mick


umm, no.

4.88s were a stock ratio, and I've heard of 5.13s for the 30.

4.88's is as low as you can go......

It all depends on what you want to accomplish when you put the axles in there....

You want something wider that is stonger than a zuk, put toys in there.........

you want something even wider and stronger than a toy then put the D44's in there!

I have been running the D44's for almost a year now, and love them!!!! I am very wide for a zuk.....wider than most jeeps actually......

If you are only running a 4:1 case....You might want to consider that with your axle choice, the Dana's are alot heavier than the toy axles are!

Originally posted by okcrawler


Ohh Bill. Let's not drag the D30 into this discussion.. :)

´Twasn´t me that brought it up, ya bastid!!!:flipoff2: :D Go back and read the FIRST post to this thread....

Anyhoo, I still think the use of D30s under a Zuk is perfectly OK. It just depends on the kind of wheeling you do. And yes, I agree that offset diffs help a lot when running ruts, but the smaller pumkin of the D30 also is of great benefit...

Originally posted by billj
´Twasn´t me that brought it up, ya bastid!!!:flipoff2: :D Go back and read the FIRST post to this thread....


You're right, he did mention the D30. It's just been ignored since then... If you are going to go thru the work to build an axle, you might a well go as strong as you can. If you have 30 stuff laying around, you can intermix and use the D30 outers on the D44. 'course, that becomes your weak link... :(

You can also go check the Toy forum. They've got the same discussion going over there...

The toy is the best choice you presented for the front. It's got the same 1.3" 30-spline shafts you would have if you ran out and bought a D44. While it's true that birfs are the definite weak spot, they aren't such a big deal in a zuk.

while this is true, do you have personal experiance/hands on to back it up?

Why do they have to be personal experiences? If it works for a large prtion of this board, am I not then allowed to recommend it to someone who isn't aware that that is the case? You've recommended Longfields to Toy guys before, and you've run Dana front ends since before Bobbly Long started doing his thing, unless I'm mistaken.


Most of the hardcore guys in here on toy axles have popped a birf or two, at the most. If it becomes a problem, you can run longfields for $230, which is cheaper than a set of CTMs for a 44.

ummm $185 x2 = more than $306 delivered ;) if he's got one set of toy axles and bust's a birf he's spending more than CTM's, remember not everyone has cores...

If he has a toy axle laying around, he has cores. Send them in with $230, get two longfields back. I feel comfortable with a Toy on 36s carrying spare inners, but no birfs. I would have no problem doing the same on a Sammy.

If you have a D44 for the back right now, then I would run either that or the Toy. If you don't own a Toy rear The two are pretty much a wash in back.

yea... ok... before making stupid blanket statment's get a tape measure and check lug paterns ;) toy = 6lug CJ = 5 lug.. do you want to carry 2 spares?? early CJ's are WAY narrower than toy axles also...

What can I say? I meesed up and forgot about lug patterns.

Same axleshafts (A D44 shaft slides into a toy carrier) and everything.

ummmmmm, no comment....

It's true, ain't it? No, you can't run a D44 axleshaft in a Yota housing, but I was simply trying to dispel the stupid D44= strong, Toy = weak myth most people seem to have stuck in their heads.

You can build the D44 cheaper than the Toy axle (lockers and gears are cheaper).

got number to back that though?? i think you're crudely mistaken again...

From 4WheelParts website (crappy and expensive, but an example):
D44 4.89 = $121, Install = $99, Detroit = $528 Total = $748
Toy 4.88 = $157, Install = $125, Detroit = $449 Total = $731

...But if you go with Lockrights, which are more popular with Zuk owners than most other vehicles, The Toy is more expensive to build.

So it would appear I was wrong, sort of. I was certain R$P and master kits were cheaper for Danas, but I didn't know a detroit costs an arm and a leg. Those prices are all pretty high, too. I Just went there because I knew they had everything. For my rear Toy 8", I paid $125 for a Yukon 5.29, $70 for install, and $398 for my detroit, which comes out to $593 total, for instance.

It depends how much you value having the diffs interchange - if you don't have any interest in carrying a third member that fits either end, I'd go D44.

if you really think hes gonna blow up a toy diff or a D44 with that gearing choice on those tires you have issues or someone did a shitty setup!

This is probably true, unless he swaps in a 4.3 or something, but it was something I felt was worth mentioning. Just because you don't think you'll break it is no reason to avoid carrying spares if you've got them... and Toy axles make carrrying a spare, pre set-up R&P easy. It *IS* and advantage, although one a Zuk guy is going to be less concerned about that someone running that 4.3 in his Toy might be.

Something else to consider, though - width. I have a buddy running the same dana axles you have right now in his CJ5. They are NARROW. Maybe not Zuk narrow, but still... they make my toy look wide. Even with 3-ish inch backspacing, his tires still rub on the fenderwells and springs. He really needs some 2"BS wheels.

ok earlier you stated that the D44 rear toy front is a good combo, now you say it's way narrower?? a contradiction, or do you think the front being 5+in wider is cool?

The fact that that particualr D44 is hella-narrow ocurred to me while I was writing this first post. I forgot to go back and change my first scentence after I finished, that's all.

Anyways, it sounds like he has a matching rear Toy axle to me now, which would be the obvious recommendation.

Toy axles work well on zuks because it's like putting fullwidth axles on a jeep in terms of width, they are still relatively small and light, and they're plenty strong.


i just put toy axles under MY zuk today, V6 5.29's front and rear, and they're still to narrow for my taste...

Well, you've got the first hand experience, so I'll take your word on it. But what is not wide enough for some, may be too wide for others. Especially on a DD Zuk, where an axle much wider than a Yota is going to make you a cop magnet with your tires that far out of the fenders. (You know, like those pull-me-over rings you used to run on your old beadlocks? ;))

When did you start building a Zuk? I haven't been in this forum much lately, so I probably missed it...

One last thing - lots of the guys who have swapped in a D44 on their IFS Toys have run 5.38 in the 44 and 5.29 in the Toy for years. If you do the math, that's about a 1% difference in gearing. You get more binding from turning in 4-low than you would from that... so that shouldn't be a deciding factor.

ya.. 1.7% and it does bind... i've run this for over 2 yrs on 2 rig's... if i could afford a rear HP 60 i would in a heartbeat to match them up! [/B]

Well, there are at least a dozen guys in the Toy forum with this setup and you are the FIRST one whose mentioned it that I've seen. But now I know...

Jumping in here as I am just buying my first Sammy(SJ410), and I happen to have a bunch of Scout Dana 44's kicking around.

The SJ is totally stock right now, but I'm thinking of taking the 36x12.5-15 TSL's off my Jeep and putting the SJ SOA with the Dana 44's. I think 5.38 is the lowest gearset avaliable for the Dana 44's. Question is, what is the stock SJ ratio?, and is the 1.3 going to be able to move the 36's?

Originally posted by Flip1YJ
Jumping in here as I am just buying my first Sammy(SJ410), and I happen to have a bunch of Scout Dana 44's kicking around.

The SJ is totally stock right now, but I'm thinking of taking the 36x12.5-15 TSL's off my Jeep and putting the SJ SOA with the Dana 44's. I think 5.38 is the lowest gearset avaliable for the Dana 44's. Question is, what is the stock SJ ratio?, and is the 1.3 going to be able to move the 36's?

Another lost soul from the Heep roles has finally seen the light!!:flipoff2:

Stock Sami diffs are 3.73 so with those 5.38s, the 1.3 will be able to turn those 36", but just barely. But unless I´m mistaken (the wild horde will surely let me know if I am), , since you have an SJ410, you have the raw material to quite easily build a baby lobster t-case, giving you a respectable lo-range. I don´t have the link right now for this build-up, but go to Google and search for "baby lobster"...

Depending on the kinda wheeling you do, this setup should at least get you started...

HTH,

Originally posted by billj


Another lost soul from the Heep roles has finally seen the light!!:flipoff2:

Stock Sami diffs are 3.73 so with those 5.38s, the 1.3 will be able to turn those 36", but just barely. But unless I´m mistaken (the wild horde will surely let me know if I am), , since you have an SJ410, you have the raw material to quite easily build a baby lobster t-case, giving you a respectable lo-range. I don´t have the link right now for this build-up, but go to Google and search for "baby lobster"...

Depending on the kinda wheeling you do, this setup should at least get you started...

HTH,

Bill: not possitive here because of the mixed up 85 and 84 model years between SJ 410 and SJ 413, but the SJ410 should only have a 1 liter engine, 1000cc.

Also I think the baby lobster IS the 410 case . The Rock Lobster is a combination or 84 and 86 t-cases with a welded counter shaft.
this makes the 4.16 reduction gear.

Originally posted by mudlite


Also I think the baby lobster IS the 410 case . The Rock Lobster is a combination or 84 and 86 t-cases with a welded counter shaft.
this makes the 4.16 reduction gear.


Yeah, it was the Rock Lobster that I was referring to. Looks like old age and years of beer drinkin´ have caught up with me...:p

thanks to all for your input. It seems as though I will be using the Toyotas. Got a great deal on locker, and R&P set. Danas may end up under the other Zuk I'm looking at though.

Originally posted by fatkid
I think the Dana 30 tops out at 4.56, not to mention the Toy has larger shafts and some other really nice features. IMHO.

west coast differentials say they have dana 30 in 5:38 now.
the zuk is much lighter then a Jeep and Ive had no problems with my dana30 on the front of my buggy, BUT I've broken two spicer u-joints on my Eb dana 44 rear steer set up. the reason was i had my stops set in to close, thats been fixed by screwing out my stops.

check out the artical on axels in the sept, 4 wheel drive and sport utility mag ( title is ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE) at the end they have recomended axels to tire size. the sources were currie ent,daynatrac products, moser eng, superior axel, tera mfg, warn ind, yukon gear and axel. this shuold help.