Bad News

[McCracken]

I don't know if any of you have gotten an email from the USFS but it's bad. I just recieved a proposed plan outlining the closure of many trails at Tellico. Examples:

1) Schoolbus GONE
2) Slickrock GONE
3) Lower 2 GONE
4) If Helicopter Pad bypass cannot be successfully bypassed... GONE
5) The Ledge at Peckerwood GONE

Plus they will have closures after heavy rain events with the usual annual closure for the winter months. There will be an open house on June 28 from 1-4 PM at the First Baptist Church 517 Hiwassee Street in Murphy. I suggest that everyone who can, ATTEND!!!!

[redneckengineered]

Here's the documents for those that are interested, I uploaded them to my server

Tellico Scoping Details (http://www.rebelrockrunners.org/andrew/tellico_scoping.pdf)

Tellico Scoping Map (http://www.rebelrockrunners.org/andrew/tellico_scoping_map.pdf)

Meeting Flyer (http://www.rebelrockrunners.org/andrew/meeting_flyer.pdf)

[redneckengineered]

What is SFWDA plan to do about this and how does the pending lawsuit affect this proposal? Basically if this proposal goes through you might as well close the damn place.

[McCracken]

What is SFWDA plan to do about this and how does the pending lawsuit affect this proposal? Basically if this proposal goes through you might as well close the damn place.

I hate to say it but I agree. They're essentially turning one of the best in east into an Unlimited and Hummer park :shaking:

[GSW]

:mad3: Will they accept written comments prior to the open house? When is the transition from "proposed" to Final?

I've already shared my thoughts on the USFS website. http://www.fs.fed.us/ Click on "Contact Us" for a feedback form.



Anybody up for a carpool to Murphy on June 28?

[rock-rod]

this MUST be fought tooth and nail.
please provide an address for us out of towners. I will certainly send more letters.

[McCracken]

Address:

Tusquitee Ranger District
Atten: Steve Lohr
123 Woodland Drive
Murphy, NC 28906

comments-southern-north-carolina-nantahala-tusquitee@fs.fed.us

[comeonstart]

This is not good, e-mail sent.

[GSW]

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880609027&source=rss

[McCracken]

Well, what really brings the suck is that they are upholding their end of the bargain by providing an OHV area. It'll be the laughing stock of all OHVs but it's still one and more than likely will cover them on the use policy.

The whole tone of the proposed plan is what bothers me. One paragraph will seem like they want to help but the next will act like the whole park is doomed and will be shut down. Then they go on to claim they don't have the resources despite countless hours by SFWDA and other groups.

This whole thing stinks. If I had to bet, I'd say the District Ranger doesn't want us there.

[redneckengineered]

If this shit comes to pass the day before the closure I'm going to bolt on 54 boggers and run every trail there in 2wd turning 6 grand. At least then they'll have some real work to do. Fuckers

[redsandman6]

what i dont get is in the letter it states that some of the trails would cost to much to fix so they are just going to close them. it doesnt say how much. i think they should find out how much it would cost. before saying it is not worth it. i think trail 9 and trail 2 would be worth the money.

[redneckengineered]

I don't even think money is the issue but rather an excuse. If they said "we will keep every trail open but we have to raise "X" amount of money each year" I guarantee you we would raise it in a heart beat. They just don't give enough of a shit to try.

[bretthayes]

I feel bad for you guys.. I've never visited Tellico, but grew up on the East Coast and understand the Off-Road issues.. Anything else we can do on the West Coast to assist? The worst part is we have two Socialist Senators in California who are trying to close everything that's not privately owned also..

[dan58]

The TU people are getting exactly what they want. I really have no desire to drive 12 hours to go down there to run in 2wd all weekend. Regardless, email will be sent.

[5.2Krawler]

Over five miles of
the 15.5 mile reduction in the proposed system are simply due to a status change to what is
now known as Trail 1 (a.k.a. Davis Creek Rd. or Tipton Creek Rd.). It would be improved to
become suitable only for street-legal vehicles.

I called this as soon as I saw the bridge on Trail 5, That bridge is way bigger than any 4wd would need, they just got us to supply them a bridge so they will have less work when they pave trail 5 too.

[Mike327]

:mad3:.:mad3:

[sparkn89]

this may be a dumb thought but it could be, and i may just be pissed.:mad3:

If we all give up and they do close the trails with that new bridge just how long till the gov sales the "useless" land to subdivsions, just how much tax money rasing homes can you but in that much acrage. I know most of you are west cost, I don't know how it is there, but they are cutting the piss out of the mountians here for people from other places just to build 2nd homes that don't even get used half the year. I've seen them sell local wildlife lands that have turned in to subdivsions and they don't care cause they made the money from the sale and the money from the taxes.

[Kurtuleas]

My suggestions from thousands of miles away:

Ok, I am not there and I do not know who is doing what on the ground in Tellico, but Nick, here is what I suggest for the grass-roots folks:

1. I *think* this is the scoping period. They have to go thru the NEPA process and I *think* do a whole EIS (Enviromental Impact Study) I suggest that you local guys start reading the threads in the regular LU forum on the Eldorado National Forest route designation/travel management fiasco and research what we did there. If the process is the same (and it should be), they NEED to get public input.

They are going to come up with several alternative maps (plans) for Tellico and pick one...

2. I found this in going thru the literature:

As it exists today, the OHV System cannot be maintained adequately so as to limit future edimentation. The money and people available to do the maintenance are severely limited. While current user fees and volunteer efforts make an important contribution, they do not meet the current or projected need. The resources to do the work must increase dramatically, the long term maintenance requirements must decrease dramatically, or some combination of both must occur to financially maintain the Upper Tellico OHV System. I will be weighing each alternative OHV system in light of how likely it is that we will be able to maintain it in future years.

There are basically saying they cannot afford to do the work to keep the trails open,

I HIGHLY suggest forming a "Friends of" group simular to what we have out here for many different areas and trails. (FOTR, FOE, FOG, FOF etc...)Basically it would be forming a group volunteers to work with the FS in order to keep trails open. I THOUGHT a few clubs out there did that, but one large group making a strong effort may lend some hope.

Even though John Stewart is from Cal4, maybe we can ask his opinion on this since the guy knows his stuff....

[redman_30_06]

1. A one-year closure of Lower Trail 2 (from the intersection with Road 420 west to Road 402), Trail 7, a portion of Trail 8 (from the intersection with Trail 9 to the intersection with Trail 10A), and Trail 9 in the Upper Tellico OHV area which prohibits operating motor vehicles on these trails during the closure period and sets penalties for violating the provisions of this Order.



I wonder what happened to the whole not to exceed one year closure thing?

[kf6zpl]

You have two issues happening with Tellico:

1. the lawsuit
2. travel management

They are separate issues.

The legal issues are being handled by SWFWD, UFWDA, and BRC.

I am sure they are also involved (or will be involved) with travel management.

However, it is best to become informed. Take a look at these web links:

http://www.muirnet.net/4x4voice/index.php/civics-101
http://www.muirnet.net/4x4voice/index.php/get-involved

Briefly, it appears as the Forest Service has issued the formal scoping notice saying they intend to engage in travel management (route designation).

They will accept comment concerning issues, concerns, and ideas for the routes in Tellico.

They will prepare a Draft EIS for public comment. At this stage, you will have a real tough time introducing new information unless it was submitted during the scoping period and omitted.

After the draft will come the Final EIS followed by a Record of Decision. Then, the plan will be implemented.

Kurt stated a that you need to set up a "Friends" type group. Basically, that organization exists with SFWDA as they have been organizing a number of their member clubs with work parties to keep the area open.

My suggestion is that if you are not a member of SFWDA or and club within their region, join and pay your dues. I dare say they will be needing financial assistance and volunteers to work through the growing issues.

Basically, if your favorite route is on the closure list, now is the time to provide a solution as to how you (the recreation community) will work to address the resource (and financial) concerns of the land manager.

Dave Logan, Stefan Roth, Jay Bird and a few others in SFWDA are (and have been) working with SFWDA to keep Tellico open. Join them with your financial and volunteer support as it is going to be a tough fight.

[k9crazy]

Kurt and John are exactly right. The NEPA process is just beginning and we need everyone to comment on how they would solve the issues that the FS lists in their scoping letter and proposed action.

More than likely, this won't go to an EIS, but just to an EA. That's what we see on the East Coast that is different from out west. It's how they closed Anderson Creek in GA and how they made changes to Beasley Knob.

And, joining Southern and sending money is more important now than ever. We are in DIRE need for funds to continue the law suit to reopen the trails.

So, people always ask "what can I do?" Here's a list:

1) Join SFWDA ad BRC (UFWDA comes with the Southern Membership).
2) Comment on the proposal with your own feelings and solutions for your desired outcome.
3) Do your homework. Remember, if you present incorrect information, the rest of you opinion will be ignored (example: the trout they are referring to are NOT stocked, but native brook trout)
4) Attend the meetings. Come to the open house on the 28th.
5) No matter how pissed off you are, don't shoot your mouth (or type) stupid things. Stuff like "I'll just tear the place up then" doesn't exactly show that we are a responsible and caring group of folks.
6) Talk to 10 of your friends and have them write comments too!

I don't really know what else to say at this point. I am disappointed, pissed off, frustrated, and sick of being ignored! And I know everyone else is too. But I plan on continuing to fight this tooth and nail.

[GSW]

4) Attend the meetings. Come to the open house on the 28th.
5) No matter how pissed off you are, don't shoot your mouth (or type) stupid things. Stuff like "I'll just tear the place up then" doesn't exactly show that we are a responsible and caring group of folks.


All good points Heather, but these two are hugely important. As I posted on NC4x4, here's an excerpt from the PEER website regarding how they view off roaders and why they chose the "open house" format:

One factor cited by Schambach in her testimony is the bullying tactics by some off-road groups, including threats and harassment and intimidation of Forest Service employees. In some national forests, the atmosphere created by off-roaders has gotten so intense that town hall-type meetings were replaced by day- or evening-long “open houses” to minimize opportunities for grandstanding and intimidation.

We need to be civil and well informed. And if all you can do is piss and moan then don't bother. That's obviously counter productive. We need voices of support now more than ever.

Their idea of compromise is nothing more than thinly veiled exclusivity. They close the good trails and retain the right to close the rest after a hard rain. So why would anyone plan a trip in advance when there's a chance it could be shut down after a rainstorm? Don't wait for somebody else to do it. Get your letters in NOW!

[rock-rod]

Heather is right on the money about watching what you type. Please take her advice and edit your posts to remove ANYTHING that could be used against this endeavor.

[jimbo92]

i think land developers are behind this....they dont have money to fix trails but they have money to pave all of trail 1? i call bull there is a reason they want it paved and like was said before there is a reason that bridge is so big

[navy-jeepster]

As all ready mentioned, UFWDA, Southern & BRC are all involved here.
We are working the travel management issues, but we can not do it alone.

We need your comments for this to be successful on our side.

We will get more info out as we get it.

Todd

[Kurtuleas]

Yeah you can attend meetings...

But the ONLY way to really get anything done in this process is to understand the NEPA process and get involved by writing SUBSTANTIAL comments.

You need as many people as possible to write comments during the comment periods. Shit, send them the entire Rally thread (athough it's NOT a substantive comment, it needs to be addressed!)

[rocknocker]

Also below is a link to the members of the US Senate Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry. These people need to be inundated with emails to get some pressure from the top down on the forest service.

http://216.40.253.202/~usscanf/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=32

[Kurtuleas]

What is SFWDA plan to do about this and how does the pending lawsuit affect this proposal? Basically if this proposal goes through you might as well close the damn place.

One thing you need to know about the NEPA process, while SFWDA has your back and is doing a lot, in the NEPA process ALL comments are read and considered. They need INDIVIUALS to write in also! THAT MEANS YOU!

An INDIVIUAL'S comment has just as much weight in the process that one organization does. I think they set it up that way on purpose. :(

Don't put all the weight and responsiblity on our organization's shoulders. They need help from each and every person that uses that trail system.

[k9crazy]

What is SFWDA plan to do about this and how does the pending lawsuit affect this proposal? Basically if this proposal goes through you might as well close the damn place.

Well, we are continuing the lawsuit, and asking everyone to comment and donate so we can have our voice heard and pay to fight the action. We are also looking at what we can do to step up maintenence and to come up with a plan we think would work.

One thing you need to know about the NEPA process, while SFWDA has your back and is doing a lot, in the NEPA process ALL comments are read and considered. They need INDIVIUALS to write in also! THAT MEANS YOU!

An INDIVIUAL'S comment has just as much weight in the process that one organization does. I think they set it up that way on purpose. :(

Don't put all the weight and responsiblity on our organization's shoulders. They need help from each and every person that uses that trail system.

Kurt, you are spot on. NEPA is designed for people to comment. The idea of the scoping letter, which is what the FS sends out first, is to determine the scope of the analysis they are going to do. So...we need help time determine what the preferred alternative will be by introducing viable options that will keep the trails open. That's where the comments come in and why each individual one is important. We already know that they basically discount form letters, so your words are what they need to hear. Even if you only have time to encourage them to consider a different maintence plan that will eliminate the need for trail closures, it's at least substantive and real.

Once the scoping is done, the FS will come forward with a "proposed action" and they will try to justify that action with a "purpose and need" for that action. They will produce a document (EA or EIS) that will examine the action, need, and alternatives to reach their goal. Those alternatives will include a "no action" alternative, a "proposed action" alternative, and then any others that they deem viable.

The trick here folks is that NEPA documents are ALWAYS written to acheive the stated goal. ALWAYS. So we need to make the USFS write the goal to be something other than closing trails!

And if you ask me how I know this, it's because I write those documents for a living. I could type for hours on the in's and out's of NEPA, but the bottom line is still the same. YOU need to write a letter and give money NOW! DO NOT WAIT!

[krawler00]

Trail 1 is under proposal to be paved, and also heard now you must use 4wd at all times off road to avoid anymore sediment movement! I have about had it with the Tellico lies and BS. Forestry service is making this a play park for tahoes and minivans!

[Slider454]

Just got this in an email from one of my buddies in the forest service here in Rabun County Ga.

United States
Department of
Agriculture
Forest
Service
National Forests in North Carolina
Nantahala National Forest
Tusquitee Ranger District
123 Woodland Dr.
Murphy, NC 28906-3145
828-837-5152
Caring for the Land and Serving People Printed on Recycled Paper
FOREST SERVICE ANNOUNCES PROPOSED CHANGES FOR
UPPER TELLICO OHV TRAILS
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 9, 2008
Steve Lohr, Tusquitee District Ranger, today announced proposed changes in the 39.5 mile
Upper Tellico OHV Trail System. The proposal calls for maintaining approximately 24 miles of
trails, upgrading five miles of Davis Creek Road for street-legal vehicle use, and closing and
restoring 11 miles of other trails. Lohr states, “Many of the trail segments that are popular for
high-challenge rock-crawler opportunities are heavily eroded, have high potential for
contributing sediment to nearby streams, and are therefore proposed for closure and
rehabilitation.”
The agency would construct about one mile of new OHV trail to preserve loop routes on existing
OHV trails and correct water quality problems. In addition, seasonal closure of the entire system
from January 1 to March 31 would be continued to prevent rutting and excessive sedimentation
during winter wet and freeze-thaw periods. Temporary closures would be implemented after
high rainfall events to prevent excessive erosion.
Lohr continues, “No decisions have been made at this point and the proposed action is just a
starting point for additional dialogue among all interested parties and a beginning of the formal
environmental analysis process.” For the next 30 days the Forest Service will be inviting public
comment on this proposal, which may be found on the following website:
http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/nepa/tusquitee/tellico.htm
Interested parties are also encouraged to attend a public open house scheduled for Saturday, June
28 from 1-4 PM at First Baptist Church in Murphy. Individuals may learn more about the
proposal and submit their own comments.
For more information, please contact:
Candace Wyman, Upper Tellico OHV Project Coordinator
Tusquitee Ranger District
123 Woodland Drive
Murphy NC 28906
(828) 837-5152
or
Terry Seyden, Public Affairs Officer
National Forests in North Carolina
(828) 257-4202

[Kurtuleas]

BRC sent out an "Action Alert" today too:

BLUERIBBON COALITION ACTION ALERT!

Dear BRC Action Alert Subscriber,

FOREST SERVICE ANNOUNCES PROPOSED CHANGES FOR UPPER TELLICO OHV TRAILS

Steve Lohr, Tusquitee District Ranger, on the Nantahala National Forest, today announced proposed changes in the 39.5 mile Upper Tellico OHV Trail System. The proposal calls for maintaining approximately 24 miles of trails, upgrading five miles of Davis Creek Road for street-legal vehicle use, and closing and restoring 11 miles of other trails.

Under the proposal, the agency would construct about one mile of new OHV trail to preserve loop routes on existing OHV trails and correct water quality problems. In addition, seasonal closure of the entire system from January 1 to March 31 would be continued to prevent rutting and excessive sedimentation during winter wet and freeze-thaw periods. Temporary closures would be implemented after high rainfall events to prevent excessive erosion.

"No decisions have been made at this point and the proposed action is just a starting point for additional dialogue among all interested parties and a beginning of the formal environmental analysis process," stated Lohr.

For the next 30 days, the Forest Service will be inviting public comment on this proposal, which may be found at http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/nepa/tusquitee/tellico.htm. Comments may be sent to the Tusquitee District Ranger, 123 Woodland Drive, Murphy, NC 28906. Comments may also be sent via email to comments-southern-north-carolina-nantahalatusquitee@fs.fed.us.

THE COMMENT DEADLINE IS JULY 9, 2008

Interested parties are also encouraged to attend a public open house with informational displays where participants will be able to ask questions, learn more about the proposal and submit written comments and suggestions.

The Upper Tellico Off-Highway Vehicle Trail System Open House on new Trail Management Proposal is scheduled for Saturday, June 28, 2008 1:00 PM until 4:00 PM. It will be held at the First Baptist Church, 517 Hiwassee Street, Murphy, NC. The church is located at the intersection of US 74-19 and Hiwassee Street in Murphy (across the street from McDonald's); entrance for the open house will be marked. Individuals may come anytime during the open house hours.

For additional information about the open house, contact Candace Wyman at 828-837-5152 extension 113, or go to http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/nepa/tusquitee/tellico.htm

Thanks in advance for your support,
Brian Hawthorne
Public Lands Policy Director
BlueRibbon Coalition
208-237-1008 ext 102

[Kurtuleas]

Here is a link to sample comments for Eldoardo National Forest (Home to the Rubicon) after the DRAFT Enviromental Statement was released with the alternatives posted. (That is still a little down the line for Tellico)

I suggest you read these to get an idea of what to write in at that time, ESPECIALLY the ones posted a little father into the thread.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=607421

[Bebe]

I say rally your troops and get vocal visually. Signs Posters, etc. Controversy makes them notice.

Winter Closure has to be a priority. It's total BS. You give up on that, they will close you down for dust next.

Write the elected officials and educate them. Tell them you want to keep what is rightfully yours (trails) and public access to public lands. Tell them the Environmental movement has gone too far and you are drawing a line in the sand at Tellico.

Be a constituent.


I'm bummed for you all, if you need any help, we are here, although I think Heather has this pretty well in line.

Listen to her and do as she says. If you need help with letters, how to formulate substantive comments, evaluate a DEIS,and challenge it...we'll be there to help.

[Kurtuleas]

For your reading pleasure.

'Ala John Stewart Cal4:

http://www.muirnet.net/4x4voice/index.php/component/content/article/34-nepa/65-developing-eis

[Kurtuleas]

More info and reading (albeit from some time ago and I have learned more since):

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=596279

route dez is the same thing as "Travel management"

This will give everyone a quick summary/run down of route dez

[DRM]

My "quick and dirty" letter, going out today.

Will be writing an additional "substantive" letter this weekend to send.



All you people saying you are writing - post up the text of your letter so someone else can get ideas and edit to use for themselves (with changes to reflect their personal view).

Can anyone put together a talking points for our letters to cover?

[DRM]

oops, my first letter (yeah, it's raw and unproductive - but it's a letter - which is more than most will even do).

June 11, 2008

Dear Tusquitee District Ranger,

I am writing to you concerning the proposed changes to the Tellico OHV System. I would like to take this time to voice my concern that this process seems to be designed from day one to forward the agenda to systematically close the OHV area off completely.

The Memo release dated June 9, 2008 is a multi-page document that clearly presents excuse after excuse why these trails need to be closed, with the language and tone of the memo carrying that ideal. The suggestions made amount to a reduction in trails – which means more traffic on what is left. The seasonal closures are just another way to eventually turn those into permanent closures. And the removal of many of the difficult sections of trail will leave the system neutered and practically a shell of the system it once was.

In light of that, I am voicing my opposition to ANY and ALL closures of trails within the Tellico OHV system – be they seasonal or permanent. I believe you are taking the easy way out and bowing to pressure of other groups who seek the total elimination of OHV use in this area. I would like to see the area actually be MANAGED for the good of the system, not just because you *have to* - which is the impression your memo gives.

Thank you for your time, and I urge you to consider actually doing something FOR the OVH system, instead of putting every other group’s wants ahead of ours.

David Moore

[DRM]

I will also be having both of my kids draw pictures and mailing those in on the .doc in the link:

http://4x4spot.com/land_use.htm

[Kurtuleas]

Awesome job David.

Here is what I just sent off this morning:

Dear Mr. Lohr,

Although I live in Northern California, I am very concerned with the possible closures and changes in the Tellico OHV area in North Carolina.

As a child I was raised in Yosemite National Park where my father was in charge of the concessions. Therefore, I understand the importance of environmentalism better than most. However, In this case It seems that conservation is not part of the equation, but the anti-access agenda is. National Parks are meant to preserve, National Forests are meant to "conserve" and be USED by the public. Closures of these routes will not allow the public to use these lands.

Tellico is a very important area for the OHV community. It is one of the very few areas left on the east coast where families have the opportunity to use off highway vehicles on public lands. Tellico for the OHV community is comparable to what Augusta is to golfers.

There are several points which need to be addressed.

To begin, in your letter you state:

Sediment, or particles of soil and other material that settle out in streams, is a major concern in forested watersheds in the Southeast (Coats and Miller, 1981).

Excess fine sediment in stream systems fills interstitial space between larger rocks and can smother fish eggs and the aquatic insects they feed on. This can also deprive small fish of cover from predators, since their hiding places among the small rocks become filled by sediment. Unpaved dirt and gravel roads and trails can be a primary contributor to stream sedimentation.

In that I live on the California Delta, I find this almost laughable. The CA Delta is a fishing Mecca. Yet tons of sediment is dumped into that water system every year from all of the farming in the central valley. Much more than could ever be dumped from a series of 4x4 trails. Yet there are still a great number of fish. To compound matters, you have quoted a study (Coats and Miller) from twenty seven years ago!

You also state:

We have an obligation to meet the Forest Plan soil and water standard which is derived from North Carolina Forest Practices Guidelines Related to Water Quality. I will be weighing each alternative in light of how likely it is to meet the “no visible sediment...” standard.

I have a question about the "no visible sediment" part of this statement. Visible to whom? There needs to be a more scientific way to study and measure amounts of sediment other than a forester standing by a stream with a clip board marking down if they see sediment or not. Water quality cannot just be measured by sight. Again, on the CA Delta, you cannot see more than a few inches into the water, yet fish thrive in that water!

You also state:

As it exists today, the OHV System cannot be maintained adequately so as to limit future sedimentation. The money and people available to do the maintenance are severely limited.

While current user fees and volunteer efforts make an important contribution, they do not meet the current or projected need. The resources to do the work must increase dramatically, the long term maintenance requirements must decrease dramatically, or some combination of both must occur to financially maintain the Upper Tellico OHV System. I will be weighing each alternative OHV system in light of how likely it is that we will be able to maintain it in future years.

If a solid effort was made by the Forest Service to ask for more OHV users to keep and maintain their trails open in Tellico, I am sure you can find more than enough people and equipment. Already, you have a solid base of volunteers, why can't those efforts be tripled or doubled through a little marketing? There are a great number of OHV enthusiasts that would be more than willing to help.

The argument that there are not enough possible volunteers to help maintain a measly 40 miles of routes is absurd when on the west coast many National Forests have thousands of miles of dirt routes.

On the west coast, we have many "Friends of" groups for National Forests and Trail systems that have done work to keep trails and campsites open and in good shape. The work of the "Friends of the Rubicon" and the like have done much to minimize any impact. Instead of just shutting down an area because it is believed there is not enough money or man-power, maybe the Forest Service should ask the OHV public to double their efforts with volunteer help. Has this been done?

I ask you to work closer with the public that uses the Tellico area and listen to their needs.

Kurt Schneider


Member of:

The Friends of Eldorado National Forest
The Friends of the Rubicon
The Friends of High Lakes
The Friends of Coy Hill
The Friends of Tahoe Forest Access
The Friends of Fordyce
The Friends of Greenhorn
The Stewards of the Sequoia
The Friends of Panamint Valley
Blue Ribbon Coalition
California Association of Four Wheel Drive Clubs
CORVA
Pirate4x4.com Land-use editor
CRAWL Magazine Land-use editor
The Ancient and honorable Order of E Clampus Vitus
Kyburz Krawlerz OHV club

[Kurtuleas]

I got an idea.

Why don't we just get some MASSIVE granite boulders and cover the trails to stop any possible sediment?

Turn the whole area into something like the Hammers? :D

[bigjerm]

what email did you use to send it? I have a letter typed up and ready to go but every time I use the listed email address, comments-southern-north-carolina-nan...itee@fs.fed.us, it says it is not a valid address.

[Kurtuleas]

what email did you use to send it? I have a letter typed up and ready to go but every time I use the listed email address, comments-southern-north-carolina-nan...itee@fs.fed.us, it says it is not a valid address.

It bounced back for me the first time too..

Here's the addy:

comments-southern-north-carolina-nantahala-tusquitee@fs.fed.us

For some reason pirate will not list the entire addy, if you are using explorer as your browser, if you move your cursor over the link you can see the addy in the bottom left of the window...

Then you will get this in an e-mail to know they got it:

Your document was received by the
comments-southern-north-carolina-nantahala-tusquitee mailbox.
This is an automated message, please do not reply. If a response is
required by the Forest Service, it will be forthcoming.

[bigjerm]

thanks, I will correct it on my local board, GATR.

[Kurtuleas]

Here is another that I just sent.

PLEASE send a simular one!!! Don't just copy what I wrote, write in in your own terms, as "form letters" are not really seen as "Substantial comments"

Dear Mr. Lohr,

In an early e-mail, I stated that the Tellico OHV area is very important to the OHV community.

In order to show this, I would like to bring your attention to this thread on Pirate4x4.com which is the largest 4x4 website in the world:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=676594

In a span of just a few hours, nearly 1,000 people voiced thier concerns in a "Virtual, Online Rally" to protest the possible closures of the Tellico OHV area. They have posted arguments against the closures, plus pictures and testaments as to how important the Tellico area is to our community.

In that this process needs public input, I ask that you make that rally thread and all the comments within it as part of the public record and part of this process. This is important in that a great number of the OHV public is not aware of this current scoping period and that public input is needed. Thier comments need to be recognized.

The thread has been closed and no new comments were added after the time limit of the rally. To date, over 20,000 indiviual IP addresses have viewed that thread.


Kurt Schneider

Member of:

The Friends of Eldorado National Forest
The Friends of the Rubicon
The Friends of High Lakes
The Friends of Coy Hill
The Friends of Tahoe Forest Access
The Friends of Fordyce
The Friends of Greenhorn
The Stewards of the Sequoia
The Friends of Panamint Valley
Blue Ribbon Coalition
California Association of Four Wheel Drive Clubs
CORVA
Pirate4x4.com Land-use editor
CRAWL Magazine Land-use editor
The Ancient and honorable Order of E Clampus Vitus
Kyburz Krawlerz OHV club

[bigjerm]

PLEASE send a simular one!!! Don't just copy what I wrote, write in in your own terms, as "form letters" are not really seen as "Substantial comments"



Its true. This is an old release but if you look at the end of page 3, start of page 4 you can see they pay attention to who sends and if it is original or form letters.

http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/ohv/final.pdf

[GSW]

I actually started with a slightly different tack. I've been communicating with a representative of Wild South, which is the new name for the Southern Appalachian Biodiversity Project. They are based in Asheville NC and were one of the organizations partnered with TU, PEER and SELC on the original lawsuit. They also have several photos on their website (wildsouth.org) showing people in full on rain gear standing in the most eroded sections of the trail.

Hopefully this will spark some ideas and give some insight into how the other side thinks. Here is a brief excerpt of my dialogue thus far:

Me: Quick question: Can you please elaborate on the specific sensitivities of the Brook Trout population in the waters in and around the Tellico OHV area? Erosion and sedimentation from the trail system have been pegged as the primary culprit and I'm not so sure that assumption is correct.

The streams are stocked from the TN and NC side with Rainbow and Brown Trout that have a physical advantage over the smaller Brookies. They outcompete the Brook Trout for food and subsequently the Brook populations suffer.

Additionally, the overall fish populations suffer when the hatchery trucks rumble up to the stream to dump their load. Scores of fishermen are ready and waiting to capitalize on the stunned and disoriented fish as they swirl around in the fashion they are accustomed. The trashiest and nastiest areas are always the riparian areas. Methinks the real problem lies there and not in some trendy reclamation of public lands for certain special interests.

wildsouth rep: I'm a wild trout fisherman myself, and hear your concerns re: stocking, competition with bows and browns, and other challenges that specs face. But in the case of Tellico, Forest Service studies show that there have been no young of the year for ANY trout species in the Tellico for the past two years. Another USFS study documents just how much sediment is getting dumped into the Tellico (tons), and any fisherman will tell you that when you muddy the water, the nymphs and larvae go first, and the trout soon follow. So while I think you've identified a number of threats to brookies, all valid, I don't think the OHV trail is helping trout any.

And keep in mind that as far as special interests go, none is more exclusive than OHV use. Simply by designating the area for OHV use, the Forest Service has in essence precluded any other use of that portion of forest. No one is willing to hike, bike, fish, hunt, camp, ride horses, or watch wildlife in an area where OHV use dominates. So rather than saying we're reclaiming public lands for special interests, I'd like to think we're looking out for the public's interest.

Bottom line, though, is that we're not out to shut down Tellico. We just want the Forest Service to comply with Clean Water laws. I hope you agree that that's not too much to ask of a federal agency.

Me: Thanks for the quick and courteous response. As an OHV user that likes to think of himself as a good steward of the natural environment, it's hard not to view this campaign as scapegoating an easy target. The first I heard about the failures of compromise came after the SELC filed their notice of intent to sue. Before that I had taken great pride in the efforts of the Forest Service and Off Road Club volunteers to build bridges, water breaks, catch basins, berms, gates at illegal bypasses, reseeding sensitive areas and promoting responsible outdoor recreation within the off road community.

And please forgive me, but I am a little skeptical of the studies that were done in the area. Word has quickly spread that these water samples and turbidity readings were deliberately taken at very specific times. For instance, the first day the trails reopened after the winter closure, which just so happened to be a very rainy weekend. Additionally, previous sampling was done immediately following and during heavy downpours. The photos used on the wildsouth website can attest to the conditions that were preferred for the desired effect. I don't blame you, but I do reject the supposition that this is the norm.

As for the purported exclusivity of OHV use. Do you see any reasonable compromises in that vein? Perhaps a 52 week schedule that would designate certain days/weeks for OHV use interspersed with periods of non-activity for others users? Maybe a rotating list of trails that are open to OHVs at any time while others are closed? I think there has been a real failure at finding common ground among hobbyists that all agree on one big issue....we love the outdoors and want to be able to ensure our own enjoyment and that of future generations.

We need to be working together to secure more funding and resources for the Forest Service. I have communicated that sentiment to several elected officials.

[Kurtuleas]

"Simply by designating the area for OHV use, the Forest Service has in essence precluded any other use of that portion of forest. No one is willing to hike, bike, fish, hunt, camp, ride horses, or watch wildlife in an area where OHV use dominates."

What a load of fawkin BULLSHIT from this guy. :mad3:

First, You can do ALL of those things in a great number of places. Where else can you use OHVs on public lands on the East Coast???

Secondly, people camp, fish, hike etc. in EVERY area on the west coast where OHV use is allowed. OHV use does not prohibit those things AT ALL!!!

Elitism at it's finest :shaking:

[bigjerm]

not many and the few places you can take a vehicle "off road" are under attack as well (Anderson Creek trails in GA were just closed for good at the end of May) or the "trails" are so tame a family in their Minivan can drive down the trail too.

[k9crazy]

To the folks from the West Coast, thanks so much for your advice, letters, support and encouragement! As you know, the fight for public land is much more common out where you are and those of us over here in the east are not as accustomed to what we need to do. So again, thanks.

And for those that have already written letters, you rock! I am in the midst of a detailed review of the scoping letter and it will take me some time to complete my letter. When I do, I'll be happy to post up the outline of what I did for folks to edit and send with their own comments.

[priddymofo]

Not substantive, but I haven't had a chance to review all the documents posted. I'll send in a letter this weekend. I've also offered, on our local board, to donate $5 to BRC for every letter/email that is sent.

Dear Sir or Ma'am,

I am writing in response to the proposed closure of several trails at the Tellico OHV area near Murphy, NC. The plan currently being studied is absolutely unacceptable to myself and many others like me. The means currently being evaluated may or may not achieve the end for which they are designed to meet, nonetheless they are in direct conflict with an overwhelmingly prevalent sentiment as to how the Tellico OHV area should be used in the future in order to maintain its natural beauty and recreational allure. I am confident that an equitable solution to this problem exists; one which addresses the legitimate concerns of all of the involved parties. However a blanket closure of the OHV area is not the answer. There are countless numbers of concerned groups and individuals (myself included) who have been willing to donate our time, money, and constructive insight into solving this problem in a responsible manner, and we will continue to do so in the future. Ignoring the great lengths to which we have gone in order to find a middle ground on this issue would not only be a slap in the face to the people who truly care about the Tellico OHV area, but would undoubtedly speak to where the allegiances of certain involved parties in the decision making process actually lie. As far as I can tell those allegiances lie with neither the OHV community, who have such a large stake in this fight, or with the community of Murphy, NC with whom we have developed such a unique bond with over the years. I ask you then, who's interests are being served by closing the trails at the Tellico OHV area?

Please do not ignore the repeated requests we have made to have our voices be heard. I have enjoyed recreating in Tellico with my family and friends as well as spending my time and money in Murphy, NC for over 5 years now. I would like nothing more than to continue doing so for another 50.

Sincerely,

DSP

[broncomania79]

the trails are not closed yet. if all off roaders would stick together and call and write in we could make an impact to keep tellico open. im not happy about this. if you have never been to tellico you dont know what you are missing. the extreme trails are the best around here. everytime you go it gets better and better. if you dont stand together and call or write now you may never get the right to wheel at tellico. call/write and try to sound professional . just tell them why you want tellico to remain open its that simple. it only takes a few minutes of your time. give them ideas on better ways to maintain the trail system. say anything positive. dont give up. its only to late when you see a road closed sign hanging up. im calling again tomorrow.
__________________

[broncomania79]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that # is 828-837-5152
candace wyman
upper tellico project coordinator.

828-257-4202
terry seyden
national forest public affairs officer

[Kurtuleas]

IMO,

Writng a substantive comment is MUCH better than just calling one of the project leaders. While you CAN express your concerns to these people, written comments are how the NEPA process works and how they expect the comments.

Plus you will have evidence that the comment was accepted, and more to stand on in the future for possible legal action.

If you DO call these project leaders, please be sure to be respectfull and not OVERLY argumentative. If we want them to choose alternatives and keep routes, we cannot bitch at them and call them assholes. It's WAY better to work with them than against them. Shit...the "Anti's" take them out to lunch. What does the OHV community do?

Just my 2 cents from 2,500 miles away. :D

Oh, one more HUGE thing.

Please STOP referring to the "Anti-recreationists" and "Closure people" as "Greenies" The entire USA is SOLD on this "green propaganda." If we label ourselves as "anti-green" we do nothing but label ourselves as the bad guy in the minds of hundreds of thousands.

Do you see the "Anti's" out working on the trails in Tellico? Nope, but you do see 4x4 organizations! Who is REALLY taking care of the forest and the trails? Who is REALLY green? WE ARE!

[DRM]

IMO,

Writng a substantive comment is MUCH better than just calling one of the project leaders. While you CAN express your concerns to these people, written comments are how the NEPA process works and how they expect the comments.

Some may think the "kids coloring letter" I made is silly, but I'm willing to bet it has an impact in showing the "family" side of sport, and if I can get one decision-maker type to let a kids drawing pluck just *one* of their heartstrings in our favor - it was worth it :D:D:D

[Kurtuleas]

Some may think the "kids coloring letter" I made is silly, but I'm willing to bet it has an impact in showing the "family" side of sport, and if I can get one decision-maker type to let a kids drawing pluck just *one* of their heartstrings in our favor - it was worth it :D:D:D

It's not silly at all.

It's AWESOME. :beer:

At the Rally we held in Placerville for the ELDO DEIS, we had a kids booth set up where the kids drew pictures and sent them in. It's exactly what we need.

Good work.

[Cj104]

I encourage all OHV users in upstate SC to PLEASE send their comments and suggestions SOON.

Here's what I wrote, in case anyone cares:

To whom it may concern:

I am a recreational four-wheel drive vehicle user. I am extremely concerned with your proposal for the closure, paving, and destruction of OHV trails in the Tellico Plains District. I do not feel that you are considering the OHV community as a valuable group of users of public forest service lands. We have a right to use the land just like any other user group. I understand it is not your proposal to close every trail in the Tellico OHV system, but it is clearly the intention of your proposal and the intentions of other groups involved in this decision (Trout Unlimited, SELC, etc.) to make Tellico into an area that is not worth the time and travel expenses of the four wheel drive community.
Now that you're aware of my concern for your proposal I'd like to offer a few suggestions which have crossed my mind. First, why not embrace the resource of having the finest public-use OHV trail system on the east coast? You ARE the leading area, why not be proud of that and work to defend that title. States such as Colorado and California and Utah proudly boast the tourism opportunities associated with OHV systems that are scenic and challenging.
If you're going to close down X-miles of trails, allow Southern Four Wheel Drive Association and other local 4wd clubs to build X-miles of new trails in the area with the same difficulty as the trails we are losing. The trails could be made away from the river with a sustainable design. We are seeing some private OHV parks leading the way in sustainable trail design -- it is a possible and desirable solution.
As a last-ditch effort to save our public trail system, there may be a way for the forest service to partner with a private company to offer access to the Tellico OHV system via permit or user fees paid to the private company in return for the company being responsible for the upkeep of trails. This system could be an evolution of the permit system that allows whitewater rafting companies to operate on the nearby Nantahala River. Of course, the company would also charge user fees to horse riders, mountain bikers, hikers, trout fishermen, hunters, and kayakers.

Thank you for your consideration. On behalf of the OHV community, I apologize for any rude comments you may receive from fellow users. This is obviously a sensitive subject with us, and we are eager to put it behind us and restore our interests in Tellico Plains and the Murphy area.

Sincerely,

Gareth Ables
Greenville, SC

[Kurtuleas]

. On behalf of the OHV community, I apologize for any rude comments you may receive from fellow users.

Kinda sad that you have to add that.....

[thumping]

The TU people are getting exactly what they want. I really have no desire to drive 12 hours to go down there to run in 2wd all weekend. Regardless, email will be sent.

I think we need to start fishing. Stand right beside every sob we find with their little TU patch. Start whipping the water and after a few minutes, whip it out and start pissing up stream of them :D. If they get smart, beat the hell out of them! They're nothing but a bunch of whinning pu$$ies anyway...:mad3:

Oh, and park our rigs so fawking close they have to climb over the tires just to get in. Tell them they better not scratch the paint...

[BadAssXJ]

I wrote a few letters in the last few days since this has came up. I didnt really know how to reply to this thread, as I didnt know what to say. It saddens me that this is what is continuing to happen all over the country to OUR public land.

I can only ask please lets do everything in our power to FIGHT this.

:mad3:

[broncomania79]

IMO,

Writng a substantive comment is MUCH better than just calling one of the project leaders. While you CAN express your concerns to these people, written comments are how the NEPA process works and how they expect the comments.

Plus you will have evidence that the comment was accepted, and more to stand on in the future for possible legal action.

If you DO call these project leaders, please be sure to be respectfull and not OVERLY argumentative. If we want them to choose alternatives and keep routes, we cannot bitch at them and call them assholes. It's WAY better to work with them than against them. Shit...the "Anti's" take them out to lunch. What does the OHV community do?

Just my 2 cents from 2,500 miles away. :D

Oh, one more HUGE thing.

Please STOP referring to the "Anti-recreationists" and "Closure people" as "Greenies" The entire USA is SOLD on this "green propaganda." If we label ourselves as "anti-green" we do nothing but label ourselves as the bad guy in the minds of hundreds of thousands.

Do you see the "Anti's" out working on the trails in Tellico? Nope, but you do see 4x4 organizations! Who is REALLY taking care of the forest and the trails? Who is REALLY green? WE ARE!

i called . however she will be out of the office for a few days. i left her a courteous detailed message with my contact #. im also writing a polite letter. no argueing. all of your points are agreed with here. thanks for everything you are helping with. i would rather call because im considered by my friends as a good people person. you are more than correct about the anti recreationists. i will never use the (G) word again.

[momar]

hope it helps...

To Whom It May Concern:

As an avid outdoorsmen and member of the OHV community, I am deeply concerned with your proposal to close, pave, and/or re-route a significant portion of the Tellico OHV System. Although I have not personally been to Tellico, I have been involved in similar circumstances out here in California. I feel that your proposal is flawed in several ways.

First off, closing a trail because the forest service has failed in their obligations to maintain the area is irresponsible and unacceptable in my opinion. Rather than closing the trail, the Forest Service should work with volunteers to rebuild the area and maintain it. Another possibility, if closure and rehabilitation is absolutely necessary, is to allow for additional trails to be created offering comparable difficulty levels in return. The new trails could be engineered to be sustainable and created away from streams or problem areas.

Secondly, I feel that your proposal is biased and lends itself towards a systematic closure of the entire area, whether it be an absolute closure, or what I would refer to as a virtual closure. In this sense, the OHV opportunity is so diminished that very few people would make the time and monetary sacrifices to visit the area. I for one, would fall into that group of people. Since I first heard of Tellico, it is a place that I have wanted to visit. Yet I would be foolish to make a 2500 mile trip with my K5 that would likely cost me several thousand dollars, if there are no real OHV opportunities left. Or maybe, it would happen to rain that week while I made the drive there, and the whole system would be closed.

I think there are better ways to handle this situation as we have shown with our OHV trail systems out here. We have organized many volunteer groups where we, the users, donate our time, money, equipment, etc to repair and maintain the trails. One prime example is the Friends of the Rubicon. As a group of OHV users who truly do care and respect the environment so much that we are willing to spend our weekends fixing trails and repairing the surrounding resources, we have managed to help sedimentation problems and drainage issues. We have also worked hard to educate users in responsible trail etiquette.

This is also an important piece of the puzzle that I see lacking in your proposal. Tread lightly etiquette in my opinion can be more beneficial than some maintenance and repair efforts because it is lasting. While a maintenance project may help to repair a trail section for the time being, proper driving techniques will keep the trail in good shape for the long haul, thus reducing continual maintenance costs.

I think the options above should be exhausted before any closures are implemented thus further restricting the public from using our public lands.
If these measures fail, and some degree of closure must be implemented, there are other possibilities the Forest Service could explore other than outright “forever” closures. One possibility would be rotating the open routes to allow for maintenance and decreased usage. Another possibility would be to create a calendar and have the entire system open on designated dates and closed on other dates.

You should be proud of your OHV areas, from what I’ve heard Tellico is the best there is out East. Please work with the OHV community, I’m sure you will find we are willing to help in any way we can, whether it be donating person hours or raising money. We are a dedicated group with many, many talents; I’ve seen someone fix a gas tank leak with a bar of soap. If it’s broke, we’ll find a way to fix it.

Thank You

[Kurtuleas]

Thanks Momar,

I did not want to be the only fawker from CA to send in a comment. We ALL need to fight this fight, not just the locals...

[bigjerm]

Might want to send a copy of letters to our elected officials too...

Read this article presented to Congress on March 13, 2008. Don't miss the excerpt from some website on SlickRock in Tellico on page 9. Does not make us look real good.
http://www.gafw.org/pdf_files/atv_testimony_gregory.pdf

To contact your official go to http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/ and look on the left side to enter your zip code.

[krawler00]

Yeah, not a pretty picture. That is how the world views us... dumb, drunk hicks. We have got to change this!

[momar]

of course, no mention of any OHV user volunteer groups performing restoration, cleanup and maintanence projects...

I think we need to make this more apparent, that we care and that we actually do something about it other than write studies and sue people...

[Mossyrocks]

I would like to know the percentage of fisherman that show up to clean the damn river every year because I sure as shit have not seen one of them digging "TONS" (as they put it) of beer cans and tangled up fishing line out of the water.

[krawler00]

Good point! It comes down to political BS and I think we are loosing the battle. Even with all the letters, rallys and emails it seems like we still have no voice in all this crap. I think somebody should atleast have started a website dedicated to the Tellico park and list all the participating groups who clean and maintain. Might be a good visual to show these clowns.

[Kurtuleas]

I think somebody should atleast have started a website dedicated to the Tellico park and list all the participating groups who clean and maintain. Might be a good visual to show these clowns.

Good point...

Give me a week or so,

We need a "savetellico.com" as a clearing house for Tellico input and actions..

I will contact Del Albright on it

[Mike327]

Why can't the NFS come up with a plan like this:smokin:. I think I already know the answer.
http://www.al.com/birminghamnews/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1213258541209780.xml&coll=2&thispage=1

[craigellis77]

Mike327, that will be great when it's up and running, or so it sounds.

The website would be great for getting the message out. Like many others, I think the largest part of this is showing the willingness of all the groups for future cleanups, maintenance, and construction as well as showcasing all the work that has been done over the years by the off-roading community.

Perhaps contact SFWDA or member clubs for photos that could be used on the savetellico.com website showing exactly how hard our community works to protect the trails. The opposition does the same thing to make a visual argument for closing trails. We should be doing it too in order to keep them open.

[tnxjjeeper]

Another letter sent. We need to keep these coming!!!

:mr-t:

[TheInkFish]

A few of us will be there in person to opinionate a little bit.

[rockmonkeyoffroad]

When the first law suit was filed I was warned by one of the local rangers that this was next. He wasn't real happy about it either. Sad thing is I have a dedicated trout pole in my truck, but it's got to the point that I don't even like fishing due to the amount of trash that is left at the streams (North Georgia). I pack out my trash, and theirs too. Go to some of the streams and look at the condition they are left in.

[McCracken]

I wrote a few letters in the last few days since this has came up. I didnt really know how to reply to this thread, as I didnt know what to say. It saddens me that this is what is continuing to happen all over the country to OUR public land.

I can only ask please lets do everything in our power to FIGHT this.

:mad3:


I feel the same way. I don't know how to respond at this point. I will not stop fighting for what is a great privelege given to us. I am still formulating my letter in my head. I want to be able to give them some really good feedback about the trail closures and alternatives they've chosen.

All I can say is that everyone needs to dig down on this one.

[k9crazy]

I would like to know the percentage of fisherman that show up to clean the damn river every year because I sure as shit have not seen one of them digging "TONS" (as they put it) of beer cans and tangled up fishing line out of the water.

Very few, percentage wise. In fact, I think that we mention this in the law suit or at least in something I have seen that was sent to the USFS. We are the OVERWHELMING majority at the clean-ups.

I think somebody should atleast have started a website dedicated to the Tellico park and list all the participating groups who clean and maintain. Might be a good visual to show these clowns.

We have one, on SFWDA.org. We have a page for Tellico, a page for pictures, etc. It's not the most organized mess, but it's there.


Good point...

Give me a week or so,

We need a "savetellico.com" as a clearing house for Tellico input and actions..

I will contact Del Albright on it

It is important that we (SFWDA) be involved with any "clearinghouse" of information on Tellico. Since we have the law suite pending, anything we do will come under a critical eye. I would request that if you truely want to build and maintain this website, we get you in touch with our Rescue Tellico Chairman and our webmaster. Let me know and I'll make it happen.

[DRM]

I'd like to request that if you guys can - please send an actual letter instead of an email. Paper letters still carry more weight than emails, and weight is what we need.

[thumping]

I’d like to make a suggestion. Even though this may get me cusses, shot and even banned I’m going to make it. It seems we are fighting a losing battle in Tellico so I propose we fight fire with a little fire of our own. How? Well, so far we have not tried to get the fishing stopped at Tellico but merely an agreement to co-exist with the fishermen who under Trout Unlimited are trying to get us kicked out. So here is what I purpose we do, as bad as I hate them, lets give PETA a shout. If we can get them trying to get Trout Unlimited blocked from fishing due to over fishing of the streams and “hurting” the fish, they will have someone else to fight with and could take their focus off us. It would be nice to see how they react to having something they enjoy doing attacked. Even if it does not work it would be putting a nice thorn in their side…:D


Okay, flame suite on so tell me how stupid of an idea this is...:flipoff2:

[Kurtuleas]

It is important that we (SFWDA) be involved with any "clearinghouse" of information on Tellico. Since we have the law suite pending, anything we do will come under a critical eye. I would request that if you truely want to build and maintain this website, we get you in touch with our Rescue Tellico Chairman and our webmaster. Let me know and I'll make it happen.


I don't wanna re-invent the wheel Heather if you guys already have done it..

I was just thinking of a webpage that described the NEPA process in simple terms, and listed WHAT the average user has to do to respond to it.

This is the first step, there will be a lot more chances for the OHV community to submit comments...

Also maybe include on that page sample letters to give people an idea of what a substantial public comment is. Not a FORM letter, but examples to get them going.

[bigjerm]

Okay, flame suite on so tell me how stupid of an idea this is...:flipoff2:


It isnt stupid but PETA would probably go after us as well. If the fisherman are "hurting" the trout, then they will surely think we are causing just as much harm with the all the sediment crap.

[k9crazy]

I don't wanna re-invent the wheel Heather if you guys already have done it..

I was just thinking of a webpage that described the NEPA process in simple terms, and listed WHAT the average user has to do to respond to it.

This is the first step, there will be a lot more chances for the OHV community to submit comments...

Also maybe include on that page sample letters to give people an idea of what a substantial public comment is. Not a FORM letter, but examples to get them going.

I hear ya, Kurt. Thanks. I am in contact with our webmaster and we are going to revamp the webpage. We actually own www.rescuetellico.org and that points to the SFWDA page. So Doc and I are going to work on a page that is a bit easier to use and has resources for folks pretty clear.

Thanks!

[yjwith60s]

I know the forest supervisor is in agreement with tu. I have said it before, when the first winter closure happened I said the place is closed. I don't post much on this subject because it WAS my second home. I get so upset about the goings on I have a hard time keeping my cool when talking about it. All I ask is show me one time in history, in any state, where someone has had to stop what they are doing, fishing, hunting, whatever else to make sure we have an ohv area . These groups are out of hand and with the money they have, hard to fight. Those trails will be washed out really bad when they cant be used anymore, look at the ones on the tenn. side. Any way I say we start checking the water for line and hooks and trash and file the same charges so no one can use it. If these charges were backed by studies proving sediment issues , maybee it would be easier to give in. JUST REMEMBER, we must walk on egg shells and not piss them off and negotiate just to not lose everything and while we are at it we can kiss their asses and let them have our wives and use our kids for tax writeoff. Hell lets give our rigs to so they can get into areas easier, but dont piss them off. :shaking::mad3: Whatever:(

[rockmonkeyoffroad]

Has it occured to any one else that dealing with these people is a lot like being in a bad mariage. You give and give but their not happy until papers are filed, and they have it all.

[McCracken]

I hear ya, Kurt. Thanks. I am in contact with our webmaster and we are going to revamp the webpage. We actually own www.rescuetellico.org and that points to the SFWDA page. So Doc and I are going to work on a page that is a bit easier to use and has resources for folks pretty clear.

Thanks!


that's good news. he and I talked about that awhile back in the SFWDA forums. that page has needed a revamp for a long time.

also, savetellico.org is ran by a guy named Brandon on the NC4x4 board. he has stickers for sale that you can buy and all the money goes to Tellico. I got mine on the back of my rig and it fits perfect on 1.75" tube

[4-lo]

I don't know if any of you have gotten an email from the USFS but it's bad. I just recieved a proposed plan outlining the closure of many trails at Tellico. Examples:

1) Schoolbus GONE
2) Slickrock GONE
3) Lower 2 GONE
4) If Helicopter Pad bypass cannot be successfully bypassed... GONE
5) The Ledge at Peckerwood GONE

Plus they will have closures after heavy rain events with the usual annual closure for the winter months. There will be an open house on June 28 from 1-4 PM at the First Baptist Church 517 Hiwassee Street in Murphy. I suggest that everyone who can, ATTEND!!!!

Ill be there, Im attempting to rally the TTORA troops, specifically GA.

It'd be great if we could get enough people there around 11am and fill the church parking lot so the USFS has to park across the street.

[4-lo]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b234/4lo/savetellico.jpg

[k9crazy]

Thanks Colin!

[krawler00]

It is good that we are this concerned. I emailed my letter yesterday and got a notification of it making it through. I know if you have not written or typed a letter please do so and please donate if you can. If we all gave just $10 we could have a serious impact! We will really need funding for the improvements and new trail development for the areas in question if we want our favorite trails to remain open. I also encourage anyone to join a group and get involved with helping on trail maintenence days! This will be a major factor as to whether or not we can make the bypasses and bridges not the forestry service! We should be the ones telling them that we will do it! If you want to use it you have to work for it! If we can't get bypasses for guardrail, helicopter and the others than the trails will be worthless for any challenge. Schoolbus is already a lost cause so if they close 12 then it is all over. Just send the letters and $ if possible and make sure to put some time aside to help when the time comes!!!

[Crawfords Campground]

I just want to invite everyone to the open house that is being held by the FS on June 28th. This is a very important time to make your voice be heard. The area businesses are hurting for lack of tourism and they need to know why. I have gotten the Chamber of Commerce to take a more proactive stance towards the economic impact of the Tellico OHV area has on the whole community. They have been e-mailing the Chamber members the scoping letters and encouraging them to attend. I have also been talking with the FS personel and they are pushing the idea that the reason for the low attendance to Tellico is because of the cost of fuel. This is something that needs to be straightend out. We all know that other parks are having record attendance. I know that this is stretching out for a long time and will most likely take even longer to play out. The FS has all the time in the world and they are counting on you giving up. A very important point to remember is that you are not only fighting for Tellico OHV today but also your rights to motorized vehicle use on public lands for tomorrow. Don't be fooled that these issues will end with Public Lands either...Private lands are under the gun as well.
Call me to make your reservation for camping or the bunk cabins. 50% covers my expenses and also should offset the cost of fuel so you are not out too much for a great cause. The FS will not expect a huge turn out from the off roading community and it would be great to have a packed house for the community and media to see.
www.crawfordsattellico.com
828-837-9077

[4-lo]

Danny, it has nothing to do with the cost of fuel. Im sure you dont need to hear it from me to know it, but we are still wheeling. We're just wheeling in Alabama and Tennessee instead of North Carolina. Unfortunately when the majority of my guys are against going to a disenchanted place, you gotta run elsewhere.

It is sort of fuel related, as in, "it's not worth the fuel to go up there". If Tellico was its old self $5 gas wouldnt keep people away.

The good news is, if you havent heard, TTORA is going to have it's 4th Annual SETO at Tellico in October.

Ok, just got off the phone with ya, so now you know :D

[bigjerm]

well said 4-lo. Our group, GATR has a ride at Tellico the same weekend as the meeting in town (yes people plan to be there). We normally have 1 group ride a month and then people just meet up whenever to ride other weekend. Most of our monthly rides now are just parks in Alabama, or Beasley, or River Rock. The drive is the same for us to those parks and most of the parks charge a higher entrance fee than Tellico. So no, the lower attendance is not caused directly by gas prices.

[McCracken]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b234/4lo/savetellico.jpg

wow. nice!!! :smokin:


The FS has all the time in the world and they are counting on you giving up. A very important point to remember is that you are not only fighting for Tellico OHV today but also your rights to motorized vehicle use on public lands for tomorrow. Don't be fooled that these issues will end with Public Lands either...Private lands are under the gun as well.


this is what I've been trying to preach. they're hoping this will die down and everyone will forget about it. then they don't have to worry about this anymore.

[broncomania79]

just sent my letter. i also did the survey. and ive got several friends that wheel tellico to send in the survey. also candice returned my phone call today. she was very nice and glad to hear from me. she sent me an email about the upcoming meeting and where to mail letters. she does read everything on here about tellico. her personality was super and she was fun to talk with.

keep sending letters .

[vanguard_anon]

I sent my letter, I've sent my money. I hope this does some good.

[DRM]

BRC has put up a letter generator to help us out - NO EXCUSES people! Add your own text i the mix and FIRE ONE OFF!!!

http://www.sharetrails.org/letters/letter.php?id=14

[broncomania79]

BRC has put up a letter generator to help us out - NO EXCUSES people! Add your own text i the mix and FIRE ONE OFF!!!

http://www.sharetrails.org/letters/letter.php?id=14

done

[bigjerm]

BRC has put up a letter generator to help us out - NO EXCUSES people! Add your own text i the mix and FIRE ONE OFF!!!

http://www.sharetrails.org/letters/letter.php?id=14


done. Thanks for the link

[jackhart]

the language from that link is great. i'm using it to send a paper letter. i'm also keeping my fingers crossed, even though i've never been to tellico.

[brimy311]

Address:

Tusquitee Ranger District
Atten: Steve Lohr
123 Woodland Drive
Murphy, NC 28906

comments-southern-north-carolina-nantahala-tusquitee@fs.fed.us

Emailed that address and Snail mailed To Steve Lohr!

[k9crazy]

the language from that link is great. i'm using it to send a paper letter. i'm also keeping my fingers crossed, even though i've never been to tellico.

Glad you think so! And thanks for getting involved!

For those that use the generator, IF YOU GET A RETURN NOTE SAYING UNDELIVERABLE, IGNORE IT!

The email address is whacked, but it's getting fixed. All the letters are copied to me just so we have them, so I will forward them in mass once the generator is fixed.

Thanks y'all...I have over 90 letters already since the generator went up yesterday! Keep 'em coming!

[jhnyct]

I too am a fan of the generator. Letter sent. Thanks.

[BigWoodyWag]

letter sent

[McCracken]

is it possible to have the letter put into Word format? Better yet can someone do that? I'd like to make my edits/comments to their letter this route instead of pulling from the letter and quoting (Track changes).

[k9crazy]

is it possible to have the letter put into Word format? Better yet can someone do that? I'd like to make my edits/comments to their letter this route instead of pulling from the letter and quoting (Track changes).

Do you mean the scoping letter? I'll see if I can do that tomorrow at work where I have Adobe Writer. If not, just cut and paste out of adobe. It does take some formatting if you do that though.

[diggum31]

MUCH AS IT SUCKS THAT BRIDGE WAS BULIT TO HOLD LARGER EQUIPMENT,DOES ANYBODY AGREE.JUST WATCH WHAT U TYPE AND WORD THINGS, SOMEONE IS ON HERE LOOKING AT WHAT IS BEING SAID, JUST LIKE WE ARE. SORRY NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO ATEND THE MEETING. GIVE THEM HELL CUTUM NO SLACK, ON HOW U FEEL AND THE PEOPLE LIKE ME AND OTHERS NOT ABLE TO ATEND. ' DAMN I LOVE TO WHEEL THERE' :mad3:

[Kurtuleas]

Prepare for a SMACK DOWN comment from the mind of Kurt. :D

I have been doing a little research on the NC River Basins.

http://www.eenorthcarolina.org/public/ecoaddress/riverbasins/riverbasinmapinteractive.htm

I will return in a few after some calculations!

[Kurtuleas]

Here's what I have found out:

Upper Tellico has EXACTLY 39.5 miles of roads and trails and is 6,000 acres in size. (according to the Scoping letter)

That is IT for public OHV use in NC right?

Well, lets just see what the fisherman have in NC alone:

There are 17 North Carolina River Basins.

In all those river basins there are a TOTAL of 37,542 miles of streams and rivers.

Times that by two for both sides of each stream and river that equals 75,084 miles of potental fishing.

There are 225,569 acres of lakes.

I have not even inculded shoreline on the coast and estuaries.

So let's compare:

Fisherman have roughly 75,084 miles of streams and rivers to fish on in NC. (obviously some of that may be on private land, but STILL)

The OHV crowd has 39.5 miles.

The fishing crowd has 225,569 acres to fish on.

The OHV crowd has 6,000 acres, most of which cannot be traveled on.


We have JACK SHIT in NC compared to possible fishing, and yet they want to take what little public OHV areas we have.

Time to work on another comment! :D

Exactly WHICH streams or rivers flow thru Tellico???

[Kurtuleas]

Well,

This may not be labeled as a "substantial comment" for the scoping letter. But I sure as hell will send a simular one in a little farther into the NEPA process.

And the numbers are bad-ass!

Sorry, my table did not line up right when I posted it..

Dear Mr. Lohr,

This letter is in response to the scoping letter written for the Upper Tellico OHV area. In your scoping letter, it is stated that you wish to amend the Forest Plan and remove the OHV density standard in Tellico. You plan on reducing the density of the available OHV area in order to stop potential sediment that is supposedly harming fish.

I would like to direct your attention to part of the Forest Service’s mission statement on the Forest Service website:

http://www.fs.fed.us/aboutus/mission.shtml

Is says in part: “The phrase, "CARING FOR THE LAND AND SERVING PEOPLE," captures the Forest Service mission. As set forth in law, the mission is to achieve quality land management under the sustainable multiple-use management concept to meet the diverse needs of people.”

Let’s focus on the phrase “sustainable multiple-use management concept to meet the diverse needs of the people.” Multiple-use means that our public lands should be made available for multiple uses, camping, hiking, fishing, OHV use etc. There are diverse needs and the mission statement says you will try to meet those needs on our public lands.

According to Asafishing.org there were 547,727 fishing licenses issued in North Carolina in 1997. While I realize that data is more than ten years old, I would like to point out that the data you are using on fish and sediment is 30 years old.

Let’s say we round up that number of fishing licenses to 600,000 in North Carolina. Just how much area do these fishermen have to fish?

There are 17 river basins in North Carolina.

Here is a table with the mileage of rivers and the acreage of lakes in those river basins:

NC River Basin Miles of Rivers Acres of Lakes
Neuse 2,880 16,414
Tar-Pamlico 2,566 3,977
Cape Fear 6,386 31,135
Lumber 2,233 8,966
Yadkin/Pee Dee 5,862 22,988
Roanoke 2,213 81,631
Catawba 3,285 50,768
New 918 0
Watauga 270 0
French Broad 3,985 1,736
White Oak 446 0
Broad 1,513 1,954
Pasquotank 474 0
Chowan 803 0
Savannah 176 0
Little Tennessee 2,565 0
Hiwassee 967 0
TOTALS 37,542 225,569


This data was taken from:

http://www.eenorthcarolina.org/public/ecoaddress/riverbasins/riverbasinmapinteractive.htm

I have not included estuaries and the Coastlines in these figures. So for JUST stream, rivers and lakes, there is a total of (counting both sides of all rivers and streams available for fishermen to access) there are 75,084 potential miles of streams and rivers to fish on and 225,569 acres of lakes. I realize that not all of this mileage is on public land, or in areas “fish-able”, but even so, let’s compare that to the TOTAL amount of available public land in North Carolina available for OHV use:

There are 39.5 miles of routes in Upper Tellico, which may be reduced to 24 miles, all within a measly 6,000 acres.

According to the Forest Service there were 36 million OHV recreationists in the United States in 2000 and that number is growing. 72 percent of them ride on public lands.

Exactly HOW is the forest service meeting the “diverse needs” of the public by closing what is already an extremely small amount of land for an extremely large number of public land recreationists? The amount of available land for OHV use in North Carolina is a VERY small fraction of open area compared to the massive amount of water bodies available for fishing in North Carolina. Yet the Forest Service proposes to close even more OHV area in Upper Tellico.

If this small, critical area is cut to 24 miles, it is pure prejudice against a large number of OHV users. You cannot serve people and meet the diverse needs as it is, yet the forest service may bow down to a organization with “Elitist” values who wish to close families and recreationist out of one of the very few public areas left on the East Coast for OHV use.

I urge you to re-consider what you are doing in order to bow down to a law suit based on little facts and old studies.


Kurt Schneider

[Alabamatoy]

.... let’s compare that to the TOTAL amount of available public land in North Carolina available for OHV use....

Uwharrie (http://www.sfwda.org/trails/uwharrie/index.html)...

[McCracken]

yeah, I was going to say Uwharrie and out on the coast you can drive on some beaches. I'm sure they'll lump that into it as well.

Excellent point though. I sat down last night and went through the entire scoping letter. I made marks where specifics were left out and questions needed to tbe asked. There was more red on that paper than black when I was done :D

The only catch about the trout fishery is that Brook Trout need cold, flowing waters. You can't find that anywhere but in the mountains. That's why the NCWRC designated it a Wild Trout Water back in 91. Now since it is a self sustaining fishery it's considered "outstandingly remarkable" and the BLM thinks it needs to protect that. Well, explain to me that after 30 years this "outstandingly remarkable" stream hasn't tanked considering that we seem to be the destructors of earth? The math just doesn't add up.

[thumping]

yeah, I was going to say Uwharrie and out on the coast you can drive on some beaches. I'm sure they'll lump that into it as well.

Excellent point though. I sat down last night and went through the entire scoping letter. I made marks where specifics were left out and questions needed to tbe asked. There was more red on that paper than black when I was done :D

The only catch about the trout fishery is that Brook Trout need cold, flowing waters. You can't find that anywhere but in the mountains. That's why the NCWRC designated it a Wild Trout Water back in 91. Now since it is a self sustaining fishery it's considered "outstandingly remarkable" and the BLM thinks it needs to protect that. Well, explain to me that after 30 years this "outstandingly remarkable" stream hasn't tanked considering that we seem to be the destructors of earth? The math just doesn't add up.

Looking at most eco nut studies...nothing rarely adds up...:shaking:

[nlatto]

Another thing to do which I have done, is to send all the sponsors listed on the TU website a letter saying you will not buy their products for helping TU close our trails. I have done this and I am sticking by my words.
Underarmor, Barnes and Noble and Cabellas are just a few of the companies they have sending them money. My little piddly amount of stuff I have bought from them may not matter, but if they get thousands of letters, they may back off and money is what TU has that we don't.

[GSW]

Another thing to do which I have done, is to send all the sponsors listed on the TU website a letter saying you will not buy their products for helping TU close our trails. I have done this and I am sticking by my words.
Underarmor, Barnes and Noble and Cabellas are just a few of the companies they have sending them money. My little piddly amount of stuff I have bought from them may not matter, but if they get thousands of letters, they may back off and money is what TU has that we don't.

Good idea. Here's the link to make it easier for everybody.

Corporate Sponsors
http://www.tu.org/site/c.kkLRJ7MSKtH/b.3094337/

Businesses Offering Discounts or Support for TU
http://www.tu.org/site/c.kkLRJ7MSKtH/b.3094327/

[GSW]

DO NOT click on a business link from the TroutUnlimited website.

Here's the email link for Cabelas. Let them know they've lost your business.

http://cabelas.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/cabelas.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?p_sid=m9RoIf7j&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfc m93X2NudD0zMjQsMzI0JnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0 mcF9jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9ub CZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**

[McCracken]

I've dropped Cabela's a line before. I need to hit the others off.

Also, with most eco-studies it based on speculation and precedent. Most studies are conducted by universities and other groups and typically lack funding. The number of studies that are needed usually get hacked down to maybe one or two. From those, they draw all kinds of speculative data and conclusions that somehow someway tie into their studies and then publish papers. Granted, publishing papers take a long time as that they must go through a very rigorous panel of doctorates but even then they argue amongst themselves on what it all means. It all boils down to interpretation and which interpretation fits your needs.

[Kurtuleas]

The only catch about the trout fishery is that Brook Trout need cold, flowing waters. You can't find that anywhere but in the mountains. .

Well, I have been doing my OWN research on Brook trout.

From the Scoping letter and from a study 27 years ago :mad3::


"Sediment, or particles of soil and other material that settle out in streams, is a major concern in forested watersheds in the Southeast (Coats and Miller, 1981). Excess fine sediment in stream systems fills interstitial space between larger rocks and can smother fish eggs and the aquatic insects they feed on"

From my research: (www.troutlet.com)

"They can successfully spawn over a variety of river bottoms"

Who is to blame for the greatest loss of Brook Trout?

"Due to over fishing, and competition with rainbow and brown trout, their range now is greatly reduced in most states."

Maybe TU should sue the folks that do not catch and release.

[McCracken]

Who is to blame for the greatest loss of Brook Trout?

"Due to over fishing, and competition with rainbow and brown trout, their range now is greatly reduced in most states."

I'll agree with this 100%. Stocking is the main problem and brings up an excellent point. If they cared enough about the "true" fishery then they would stop stocking all together and reduce the amount of pressure on the fish. This would give them adequate time to be self sufficient but oh hell no they won't do that.

People need to be able to fish and need to be able to catch fish so the stocking continues. Seems as they manage for the trout no matter the costs but when we need a few acres they tell us it's not feasible and that massive amounts of engineering will be needed along with heavy maintenance. The Tellico River has been babied for years and they even set up a hatchery on it to keep it supported to continue to manage for the fishermen. I wonder how much money gets spent each year for that hatchery and the stocking of that river.

[Kurtuleas]

Does anyone know if anyone has a mining claim in Upper Tellico?

[DRM]

My latest:

Dear Ranger Lohr,

I am writing to provide comments on the scoping letter for changes at the Upper Tellico ORV Area in the Nantahala National Forest.

I am troubled at the attitude of the FS that you are asking OHV users to reduce the already limited number of trail miles. Is the FS also reducing the number of stream bank miles that are open for fishing? Is the FS limiting fishing days per year to reduce pressure on the trout? Is the FS cutting back on the stocking of foreign trout species that have been scientifically proven as a detriment to the survival of native trout species?

This unequal treatment of OHV users and fishermen amounts to nothing more than wholesale abandonment of your own Forest Service mission statement to provide for and PROMOTE multi-use of the lands belonging to the people of this country.

I urge you to not only abandon the current closure plans, but to abide by your own Mission Statement and begin to work for and promote the expansion of responsible OHV use on FS managed lands.

Sincerely,

DRM

[Kurtuleas]

http://www.fs.fed.us/trailsunlimited/

:confused:

[Kurtuleas]

PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU READ THIS POST:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=694804

I have made it a stick for now.

[Alabamatoy]

"Due to over fishing, and competition with rainbow and brown trout, their range now is greatly reduced in most states."

Interesting point here. My understanding is that USFS stocks the streams with rainbows and browns, which directly compete with the brookies for the nearly the same territory. Brookies apparently are not aggressive, and need real cold water. So if the Brookies population is dwindling, its very likely caused by competition from the non-native species stock that the USFS is adding!

Stop by the hatchery on the Tennessee side sometime and look at the monsters they have in there for breeding stock

[CRJeepin]

Just sent my letter in, mine was a little different than some of these here though, based on what I saw when I wheeled there in the summer of '06.

I opposed the trail closures, I don't think they're the solution to the problem. The "Friends of" is a great way to start and much needed! But it's not going to address what in MY OPINION is the root of a bunch of the problems there - the small percentage of "bad eggs" getting in and blazing illegal trails, dumping trash, and ripping the place up. I'm not going to detail what we saw publicly, but the majority of the people were great offroaders, courteous and friendly. There was a decent number of "bad eggs" though.

What I think WOULD have a strong impact is:
-a local "friends of" group to help trail maintenance
-an engaged Ranger District to help direct trail maintenance
-an inspection station to keep the drugs and alcohol out, as well as leaky rigs and unsafe wheelers
-a ranger presence on the trail system to weed out the bad eggs
-charging enough to fund a ranger to man it (more like $20/day like private parks)

Again this is just my opinion but I see this going one of two ways - people getting involved and fixing up the problems, or trails getting closed. Demanding the status quo be maintained isn't going to happen because there are problems, and they're obvious to anybody that spends time there. Debating the merits of one study or the other is minutia at this point, there needs to be a framework in place to address the problems first.

Many thanks to the UFWDA, SFWDA and others for their time and effort to help address this before it's too late!!

[s10er8]

We need to get some pictures of some stringers of trout caught out of the river!seriously no shit. Who fishes there?

We need pictures of people catching fish!!


What else would be better than show up at the meeting with a stringer FULL of the same trout that they claimed were being harmed due to sediment. Within the law on catch limits/season...

I'm fishing up there this weekend in Georgia, like I said before, dont come by shooting at me I'm not with TU :D

[s10er8]

I Googled it and a hell of lot of people are catching native trout in the Tellico River!!! the lying assholes!

http://www.mtff.org/forum/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=19&photoid=262



READ THIS STORY FROM FISHERMEN. They were in Tellico and rolled without seatbelts on and ADMITTED IT
http://www.kbrcomm.com/trout/stuffhappens.html
http://www.kbrcomm.com/trout/stuffhappens.html

[offroadrocktoy]

I just received this email from my mother in law that works in a bank in Murphy. This had alot of email address listed that the email was sent to. Sounds like the word is getting around. The following is a copy of the email:

Thanks for listening to me on this situation and taking a proactive approach. Below you will find the Rescue Tellico, Save Murphyʼs Economy letter that we would like you to send out. We would also like to ask that your recipients to write a new letter to the Forest Service on the latest proposals (The money they want to spend on these latest actions would more than triple the money needed to repair any issues with the current trail system). These letters are needed as the ones that may have been generated on the last proposal will not count on this latest one. It would be great to get the Rep. Snow and West as well as Heath Schuler involved. Snow and West have made the statement they support the park, however are not taking a proactive stance. Sandy Zimmerman (Schulerʼs Rep) just shrugs off the issue and does not want to be involved. We have seen a 75%decrease in business this year and with the latest proposals Tellico OHV will be a ghost town. Do you really want our tourist dollars to go to Kentucky and Alabama. Remember, these tourist travel from all over the US to come to the most famous trail system in the Southeast and spend on average of $1000 per person, not to mention many love the area so much they purchase homes and land. We have received comment from several that were in the market decide to go elsewhere because of the issues that are currently happening with the Tellico OHV park.



Fax to additional comments to:

United States Representative Heath Shuler

DC 202-226-6422

District 828-252-8734





Rescue Tellico, Save Murphy's Economy



The Forest Service is holding an Open House on Saturday, June 28th from 1 p.m. to 4 p.m. at the First Baptist Church in Murphy, to share information about their proposal to close trails in the Upper Tellico OHV Park.



Before these closures Upper Tellico OHV Park was the number one OHV park in the eastern United States, and number two in the entire country. We have had folks travel here from all over the country to ride our trails. These guests to Cherokee County bring their money to our area and I believe that letting the Forest Service close these trails is just like letting NAFTA close down all of our manufacturing plants. Just as many jobs will be lost. They will try to tell us that we are getting fewer visitors because of gas prices and the economy but that just isn't true. These people call our campground everyday, wanting to come, hoping to hear that their favorite trails are re-opened, they are disappointed that they'll be traveling to Alabama or Kentucky to ride those trails when to them Tellico is #1 and they cannot wait to return. These 4x4 groups are standing by ready to help us keep the trails open, ready to help the Forest Service with maintenance issues. But instead the Forest Service will only propose closures, they do not propose a way to fix and maintain the trails. So instead of raising funds to help the Forest Service, Southern 4-Wheel Drive, United 4-Wheel Drive and Blue Ribbon Coalition are raising funds to sue the Forest Service, so that we can continue to offer an excellent off-road experience and enjoy our access to public lands.



If you are a business owner in Cherokee County, I strongly urge you to attend the June 28th meeting. The Forest Service will have surveys for the business owners to complete to show the economic impact these actions are causing.



If you are a resident who rides these trails, I strongly urge you to attend. The Forest Service will have user surveys for you to complete and they want your input.



If you are a leader in our community I strongly urge you to attend so that you can see first hand what the Forest Service is going to do to your tourist base, your tax revenues and your public lands. We ask that Rep. Roger West (Rogerw@ncleg.net), Sen. John Snow (Johnsn@ncleg.net), Gov. Michael Easley (governor.office@ncmail.net), and Mayor William Hughes, choose June 28th to get involved, show some interest, and even challenge the Forest Service to come up with better alternatives. The people who vote for you need your help, keeping Tellico OHV Park the #1 OHV Park of the East will help keep Cherokee County's economy afloat.



If you are unable to attend the open house please go to www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/nepa/tusquitee/tellico.htm to view the proposal and email comments-southern-north-carolina-nantahala-tusquitee@fs.fed.us with your comments. Or feel free to call us at Crawford's Campground 828-837-9077 and we will do everything we can to get you the surveys and information you need.



I would also like to challenge hotel managers, restaurant owners, auto parts stores and any businesses who are feeling the affects of having fewer 4x4 enthusiasts in the area already...look at your sales from last year and compare it to this year...let the community know how this is affecting your business. My biggest fear is that our community will not realize this loss until it is too late.



Written by Jennifer Slucher

Owner, Crawfordʼs Campground and Cabin Rentals

828-837-9077


Danny
Crawford's Campground
828-837-9077
www.crawfordsattellico.com
crawfords_campground@yahoo.com

[McCracken]

I wrote 3 letters last night and I didn't get past the first paragraph :laughing: I'm going to have a field day with this :D

[nlatto]

Seems like the fish don't stand a chance even if we quit wheeling. That litlle fish that giy caught isn't worth keeping and the story of the guys that rolled, they caught 40 fish. The damn fish aren't dwindling because of the wheeling!

[nlatto]

Here's another example of the fish being killed off by something else besides 4 wheelers.
http://www.mtff.org/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=435&mid=1237#M1237
These guys caught a bunch of small trout and it seems that the draught last year has killed off the fish, according to this fisherman.

[Mike327]

Does that one guy look like he did something strange to that fish or maybe he just had a premature release. :eek::flipoff2:http://www.mtff.org/forum/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=19&photoid=262

[burrellsjeep]

I wheel at Uwharrie OHV three to four times a year (About a 2.5 hour haul) when I was there in May it was very busy with allot bigger rigs then normal, Is because of the issues in Tellico? The trail system in Uwharrie is nothing compared to Tellico, But with all the extra wheeling it has really gotten much tougher to run (better for me). They have an "Adopt a trail" system in Uwharrie that they have started this season, I guess each 4x4 club is doing the maintenance on a certain trails which is resulting in much more extreme trail conditions which is a good thing. I just worried if this is going on in Tellico how long before they start closing other OHV trail systems.

[4-lo]

They are already closing other OHV systems. This is nothing new. Anyplace sould be under fire tomorrow.

[McCracken]

They are already closing other OHV systems. This is nothing new. Anyplace sould be under fire tomorrow.


this is exactly why we need to start banding together to fight these threats and closures.

[bigdaddy33]

So when are we going to hear some news about the law suit to open Tellico? I just rebuilt my rig so I could ride there.
I was psyched to see our side stepping up to kick some ass, but I havn't heard anything since.