Who's going to the meeting on June 28th?

[McCracken]

I'll be heading out of Waynesville, NC heading to Murphy. If anyone wants to carpool let me know. I have 3 seats available.

[bigjerm]

I am not because I wont be on the ride up there but a few in my club are. Probably 5 or so to add to the headcount, maybe more.

[McCracken]

I won't be riding that weekend either. I'm just taking the daily driver (Honda Civic) up there to attend the meeting.

[thumping]

I'd really like to but we've had reservations for months at the beach...I'm with you in sprit if that means anything. Oh, and I've mailed my letters. Yep, actually typed it up, printed it out, signed it and mailed it off...along with an e-mail.

Good luck and give'em hell...

[comeonstart]

About 9 people from this area will be headed up for the week-end and riding. I would like to also attend but I cant afford the diesel at the moment.

[weedwacker]

What is the time and location?

[kirbyiv]

about 10 of us from clemson are coming up. if any of yall want to get together to ride up 11/12 early in the morning before the meeting we are staying in the upper cabin on chuck's hill

[4-lo]

What is the time and location?

http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8340957&postcount=2

[4-lo]

I'll be heading out of Waynesville, NC heading to Murphy. If anyone wants to carpool let me know. I have 3 seats available.

I have 7 so far from GA TTORA.

[k9crazy]

I wish I could be there to meet some of y'all and talk to the FS, but I was already scheduled to be in a TreadLightly! class that I can't get out of. There will be officers from SFWDA and I'll bet they'll be in SFWDA shirts if you are looking for them.

[McCracken]

Question...

would it be beneficial to print out the Rally thread and hand it to the ranger along with a cover letter of sorts?

[4-lo]

I like that idea.

[brimy311]

600 miles one way :(

[Skerb]

I'll be there

I have already sent 2 letters but im wondering about the surveys. should we print them out and hand them in at the meeting?

[McCracken]

I don't know. I mailed mine in.

I'll see everyone tomorrow :bounce: :bounce:

[k9crazy]

I'll be there

I have already sent 2 letters but im wondering about the surveys. should we print them out and hand them in at the meeting?

No, please mail them in. The people conducting the survey may or may not be there.

[GSW]

How was the turnout? Any good info or promising feedback as a result?

[McCracken]

I thought it went well and got to meet a lot of people. I also got some information to share along with pics. I'll post up tomorrow and give my thoughts.

One thing I saw was that there were a ton more wheelers there than fisherman :flipoff2: It was hilarious actually. You could spot them a mile away. If you wore khakis it was dead giveaway #1 and #2 if you were pimping a polo and a trout belt :laughing::laughing:

One more thing... I got to speak with Gary Parsons (pres of SFWDA) and he assured me that he reads everything we write and that they are not ignoring anyone. SFWDA is here and they're working behind the scenes for us. They are doing what they can but we have to do our part as well. That means writing letters with ideas about Tellico to the ranger and getting the word out to other clubs. SFWDA and the BRC cannot do this alone. I've heard from a few that they don't understand why Southern is not doing more. They're doing more than you think and people need to realize that Southern is made up of wheelers just like you and I. They've volunteered their time and effort to keep this fight going. It is not their responsibility to keep these trails open. It is our own! So if you want to keep the trails open then start speaking up.

I'm startin' to roll so I'll stop for now :flipoff2:

[McCracken]

Here's some pics:

I apologize in advance about the quality of the pics. This camera is nothing short of a POS. I had the earlier version and it was awesome. I dropped it at a Motley crew concert and got the next generation. It's a sore subject with me but whatever, you get the idea :flipoff2:

sign in
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02926.jpg

surveys (those are TORA guys!)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02928.jpg

videos of the trails
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02929.jpg

proposed action with pics (that's Chuck from Tellico Cabins)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02931.jpg

District Ranger Steve Lohr talking with Gary Parsons
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02932.jpg

[McCracken]

More displays and information
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02934.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02935.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02936.jpg

Parking lot pics
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02937.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02938.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02941.jpg

[McCracken]

and here is the enemy :mad3::mad3::mad3: You can see they were already giving me the stink eye :laughing:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/orangecherokee/DSC02933.jpg

Now that you see who they are then you understand what we're up against. Old timers with money to burn. That partly explains those outfits :laughing: Lavender shirts, trout belts, and khakis. These guys nothing better to do then sit in their retirement homes and come up with ways to shut us down. Good thing though was that I could honestly count all the trout guys on one hand. We easily showed more intrest and concern this weekend.

[Ken Carter / BRUISER]

THANK YOU for taking the time to go an attend this meeting..

[JeremyUSMC]

Yeah Thanks , I am from asheville and the hippies have taken it over ! I never thought some fisherman would be running us out of the trails in Tellico . I hope we can save Tellico!

[McCracken]

Here's a few things I learned this past weekend:

#1 - Written letters are better than emails. I didn't catch the name of the lady I was speaking with but she made it clear how she felt about them and how they were treated. The conversation went something like this:

FSL - Hey.
Me - Hi can I ask you about these letters you've been getting
FSL - Sure, what do you want to know?
ME - What carries more weight an email or a written letter?
FSL - Well, an email is usually quick and easy. Most are just form letters and those are easy to sort out.
Me - So does quantity matter?
FSL - Well, they're form letters..... (akward pause)
Me - So you mean to tell me that if I came in here and said I support my trails that would mean as much as 500 people coming behind me and saying the same thing? The numbers don't mean anything?
FSL - Well, uh, the letters are just emails (dodging the question) and they're easier to sort.
Me - So what happens with a written letter?
FSL - They're more time consuming. I have to take each letter and scan them in and file them.
Me - Oh ok (lady, you're in for a world of hurt :laughing:)
FSL - We need comments on the actual proposal itself and that's what we're looking for.
Me - ok thanks


So, you can see that the FS needs our ideas. The emails are good but I'm afraid she'll just sort through them and miss what we are trying to say. She claimed that she just rips through them and moves them to a file. A written letter has to be handled, taken out, scanned and then filed. This makes sure it is read completely by someone. I really appreciate all the effort given by the community so far but we need to start slinging the snail mail this week!! I'm personally holding myself accountable for a minimum of 10 letters.

[McCracken]

#2 - The decision for the trail system will not be at the District level. This thing has moved all the way up the Forest Supervisor. She is located in Asheville, NC and I think we need to let her know about our ideas as well. Her name is Marisue Hilliard and she will be the one making the ultimate decision. I met her lacky Deputy Forest Supervisor Monica Schwalbach and needless to say i was not impressed :shaking:

I first asked how long she has been there and she said 6 1/2 years. I then asked how well she knows the Tellico area and the trails. She said she's been there twice.... uh yeah. She said once in a 2wd rail buggy and recently she hiked it. This woman made it clear that she and the Forest Supervisor would be making the decision. The reason being is because this decision is making a huge precedent and will affect the use plan. The use plan language can only be changed by the Forest Supervisor and apparently her lacky.

I'm going out on a limb here, and I apologize in advance, but I graduated with a Wildlife and Fisheries degree and I went to school with a lot of women and have had the opportunity to work with them through the years but I never found one that was for 4-wheeling if wildlife or fisheries were put in a compromised situation. I'm not saying they're not our there but that's been my track record. The only way I see of really making sure we get what we want is to keep the pressure on the ranger and keep making our voices heard.

[McCracken]

#3 - There's a mixed bag of opinions within the Forest Service. The new ranger seemed very open to comments and said that he ultimately want both sides to reach a compromise (that's a good PC move). I had a few ideas that some old school foresters would gasp at but he seemed very intrigued by what I had to say. Here's a tid bit.... The new bridge on 5 was built so big because potentially in the future there will be logging within the forest. Well that solves the mystery of why they built it so big.

I talked to a few others, one being Bill Champion. The man that has been doing the maintenance for the past 20 years. My brief discussion with him lead me to believe that he has other thoughts about the place. He claimed that "I'm a facts man. I leave my personal feeling out of it." Well, depending on how you interpret data you could go either way. My feeling was that after 20 years he would rather see the place go away. That's just my take on the conversation and I could be wrong. He claimed he's retiring soon and he probably wouldn't be around long enough to see this thing get resolved. He said that everyone within the office pooled all of their knowledge together and made the first draft. So what you're looking at is a culmination of everyone's thoughts and ideas.

[McCracken]

#4 - Trout Unlimited are a bunch of douches but we already knew that. After I took that one picture I tried to eavesdrop a little but didn't get much. I did hear that they thought this was a very good first draft. I'm sure they did :shaking:

They're really using their name on this one. I saw literally a handful, one handful, of trout unlimited people there and I stayed the entire 3 hours. We came out in force and didn't just mill around, we talked to everyone there. I get the impression that these tools are using their name and bankroll to try and steamroll a decision from the Forest Service. They do have a few eager beavers on their side doing some research as one nerd stood beside me while I spoke with the soils person and took notes. I should slapped him and took away his pocket protector but I thought that it would look bad on all of us so I let it go.

We're going to need a few eager beavers of our own during this process. I'll give details later but start thinking about if you're interested in putting some time in after hours to help with this fight.

That's all I got to post. There's other things but they're more tid bits. I hope this gives everyone some small insight into how it went. Overall, we had a great turnout. We got to meet the people we write to and got their opinions. I consider myself a pretty good judge of people, so I got to check out each person there and make my opinions. We showed TU we cared and they've got a long row to hoe ahead of them.

Anybody else got thoughts on the open house?

[bigjerm]

I didnt get a chance to go but here is a post from one of our members on GATR who went. He owns a 4x4 shop in N. GA not to far from Tellico.


" ;D OF COURSE. WE WOULDNT MISS THE CHANCE TO HELP GIVE FEED BACK TO THE FORESTRY SERVICE AND MAYBE HELP KEEP TELLICO OPEN IN SOME FORM.
but thats just what it looks like...it'll be open in some form.

Bottom line is I learned, or I feel like, the threat from SELC has the FS on a mission to make sure the trail system is in compliance. Caused the FS to actually do surveys of the trail system which caused them to do a double take on the whole system.

They had a lot of experts there who were experts in their own field but knew almost nothing of tellico ohv and its history or why and who even go there.

The people I asked there could not confirm SELC's number of 2400 vehicles a month. They actually didnt have numbers on the tellico users, atleast the ones I talked to. They were under the impression that a lot of people who ride at tellico DO NOT PAY. On the other hand the UT girl doing the survey at the pay station laughed at the idea that 2400 vehicles a month were going to tellico.
If you havent done the survey yet DO IT. The FS is going to be looking closely at that survey.

The SELC isnt really worried about the trout in tellico. I asked a bunch of questions about the fish and where they travel in tellico. The FS employee did tell me that the biggest threat to the brook trout is the introduction of non-native species, namely the rainbow trout they stock the streams with....a direct competitor for resources. If then therefore...SELC has a hardon for OHV users cause they're an easier target then trying to get the FS to stop stocking streams. IF their true goal was protecting the Brook trout they would do something to protect those yummy fish.

They did say they need REAL feedback. Not form letters or my kids love tellico letters. They need real suggestions about how to keep trails open, where to reroute them, etc. They have experts evaluating the trails and trying to figure out if they can be kept open but it boils down there to money. They dont have the budget. It also seems that they have only very recently started working with the SFWDA...according to some of them...and its very hard to coordinate a govt agency's needs with the labor/skills of the volunteer group. If there was a good way to coordinate they could use our vol's much more constructively...I guess...

Keep sending in letters. Real letters. As many as you want that have something constructive or new thoughts in them."

[98taco4x]

I thought it was good turn out could have been better but we didn't stay the whole 3hrs. That is me in the gray with the TTORA filling out the survey from University of Tennessee. I don't know I thought it was going to be different and it was feeling more like they were there telling us what WAS going to happen instead of what COULD happen.
Did see the one guy from Sierra Club.

[McCracken]

what did he look like?

[krawler00]

Looks like we need some hard letters coming in. I will make sure to pass the word. As for the trails and how to fix them, I suggest we ban together and get some real ways to fix the "issues" at Tellico. If it means more trail work weekends so be it. I will be there to save it. I rode schoolbus on Saturday and it may be the last time I get to see it on 4 wheels. Let's get some ideas going and send in those letters!! It will be hard to fight the bankroll of the trout boys. It will come down to us making logical fixes and doing 99% of the work. We can do it together or die trying. I talked with a woman in murphy at the ice cream parlor about all this and she was just as upset as I was. She even told me once the greenies shut down a few roads up there because of rare snails. Yes, that's right they closed roads because of snails crossing the roads!! WHAT!? So, you see what we are against with the greenies. Scary!

[98taco4x]

Older guy had a green sierra club hat that said "Save the Wild Forest" He didn't stay long he left when we did.

[McCracken]

yeah I did but I didn't know he was from the Sierra Club :confused:

Does anyone have a map of the trails with the topo lines on it too? It would really help me out. Thanks

[yellowxj]

I just got off the phone with the FS and I'll be heading down there today to buy some of their topos. Nice pic of my shops dodge BTW...looks clean in that pic.

Also just had a guy in the shop who helped his dad make some of the tellico trails way back in the day and he said he'd be glad to map out old trails that run ridges and are away from water source.

[DRM]

#1 - Written letters are better than emails. I didn't catch the name of the lady I was speaking with but she made it clear how she felt about them and how they were treated. The conversation went something like this:

FSL - Hey.
Me - Hi can I ask you about these letters you've been getting
FSL - Sure, what do you want to know?
ME - What carries more weight an email or a written letter?
FSL - Well, an email is usually quick and easy. Most are just form letters and those are easy to sort out.
Me - So does quantity matter?
FSL - Well, they're form letters..... (akward pause)
Me - So you mean to tell me that if I came in here and said I support my trails that would mean as much as 500 people coming behind me and saying the same thing? The numbers don't mean anything?
FSL - Well, uh, the letters are just emails (dodging the question) and they're easier to sort.
Me - So what happens with a written letter?
FSL - They're more time consuming. I have to take each letter and scan them in and file them.
Me - Oh ok (lady, you're in for a world of hurt :laughing:)
FSL - We need comments on the actual proposal itself and that's what we're looking for.
Me - ok thanks

I've said all along that paper letters carry more weight... but you really shoulda called her to task on her answer - seeing as how she just admitted that people's comments are not being properly reviewed based on the format they come to her in.

You really should call her supervisor and let her know that this conversation took place, and that you want to make sure emails get fair review just like paper mail.

[LR Max]

yeah I did but I didn't know he was from the Sierra Club :confused:

Does anyone have a map of the trails with the topo lines on it too? It would really help me out. Thanks

There is a map published that has everything on a topo map. I bought it at that shack coming in from the Tennessee side (nearest "civilization" from Stateline Campgrounds). It was only a couple dollars and seems to be widely available. I'll check out the name of it when I get home from work later tonight.

[McCracken]

sounds good.

DRM - sounds like a good task for you to take on. go get'em :flipoff2:

[k9crazy]

I'm going out on a limb here, and I apologize in advance, but I graduated with a Wildlife and Fisheries degree and I went to school with a lot of women and have had the opportunity to work with them through the years but I never found one that was for 4-wheeling if wildlife or fisheries were put in a compromised situation.


Thanks a lot, Nick! :mad3::flipoff2::mad3:

[k9crazy]

Also just had a guy in the shop who helped his dad make some of the tellico trails way back in the day and he said he'd be glad to map out old trails that run ridges and are away from water source.

THAT is a big, big deal. Can you get them on a map before the comment period ends and send them in as suggested alternatives to consider?

[McCracken]

Thanks a lot, Nick! :mad3::flipoff2::mad3:

I threw in my disclaimers :p

[BadAssXJ]

I want to say THANK YOU to all that attended the meeting. I wish I could have been there but it was my daughters 8th Birthday and we spent it at the Zoo.

Nick THANKS for everything dude. And I will get to slinging some snail mail letters this week as well.

Is this the topo map you was looking for?

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6568/untitledwc4.jpg

[McCracken]

yeah but I was hoping to get the creeks on there too. really what I'm trying to do is look at proximity to the creeks and the grade. I want to give them a good idea of what can feasibly be done with the trails instead of some ludacris design.

[GSW]

yeah but I was hoping to get the creeks on there too. really what I'm trying to do is look at proximity to the creeks and the grade. I want to give them a good idea of what can feasibly be done with the trails instead of some ludacris design.

Nick, try this link for the Cherokee County GIS. I've used several like it in other counties and it's fairly intuitive. Once you zoom in a little closer on an area you get more options for "layers" in the toolbar on the right hand side, including streams, 20 foot contour intervals and USGS topo.
http://65.14.20.19/index.htm

Just click that you agree to terms and the GIS will launch.

[Kurtuleas]

#1 - Written letters are better than emails. I didn't catch the name of the lady I was speaking with but she made it clear how she felt about them and how they were treated. The conversation went something like this:

FSL - Hey.
Me - Hi can I ask you about these letters you've been getting
FSL - Sure, what do you want to know?
ME - What carries more weight an email or a written letter?
FSL - Well, an email is usually quick and easy. Most are just form letters and those are easy to sort out.
Me - So does quantity matter?
FSL - Well, they're form letters..... (akward pause)
Me - So you mean to tell me that if I came in here and said I support my trails that would mean as much as 500 people coming behind me and saying the same thing? The numbers don't mean anything?
FSL - Well, uh, the letters are just emails (dodging the question) and they're easier to sort.
Me - So what happens with a written letter?
FSL - They're more time consuming. I have to take each letter and scan them in and file them.
Me - Oh ok (lady, you're in for a world of hurt :laughing:)
FSL - We need comments on the actual proposal itself and that's what we're looking for.
Me - ok thanks
.

Hold on Nick & Dave...

She has no fawkin idea what she is saying and is mixing up two different things.

Remember to read this thread:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=694804

First off: FORM LETTERS DO NOT COUNT!! Well, the FIRST one does. But the Forest Service does not vote "votes" Meaning if one form letter is submitted and 200 other people send in the same letter...it's still seen as ONE letter.

That is why BRC makes it so you can CHANGE the letter and add your own comments in the box thru thier letter thing.

If you E-mail a comment thru your personal e-mail, it MUST be read and acknowledged by the FS. As long as it's a SUBSTANTIAL comment, it will be effective. (again, please see the above link)

I would go as far as to say MOST of the substantal comments in Eldo, many that lead to appeals, we e-mailed into the FS.

HOWEVER, It does make more work for them with snail mail. And that is what we want! We want to overload the FS with so many letters that the process is a complete BITCH for them.

SO if you can, SNAIL MAIL.

If you can't: E-mail! Just make sure it's a SUBSTANTAIL COMMENT

[Alabamatoy]

Does anyone have a map of the trails with the topo lines on it too? It would really help me out. Thanks

If anyone has .GPX format tracks of the trails, I have software that can superimpose them on a topo (or any geo-referenced image, for that matter).

98tj (Brad) on the RCRC forum may have these tracks.

[McCracken]

Hold on Nick & Dave...

She has no fawkin idea what she is saying and is mixing up two different things.

Remember to read this thread:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=694804

First off: FORM LETTERS DO NOT COUNT!! Well, the FIRST one does. But the Forest Service does not vote "votes" Meaning if one form letter is submitted and 200 other people send in the same letter...it's still seen as ONE letter.

That is why BRC makes it so you can CHANGE the letter and add your own comments in the box thru thier letter thing.

If you E-mail a comment thru your personal e-mail, it MUST be read and acknowledged by the FS. As long as it's a SUBSTANTIAL comment, it will be effective. (again, please see the above link)

I would go as far as to say MOST of the substantal comments in Eldo, many that lead to appeals, we e-mailed into the FS.

HOWEVER, It does make more work for them with snail mail. And that is what we want! We want to overload the FS with so many letters that the process is a complete BITCH for them.

SO if you can, SNAIL MAIL.

If you can't: E-mail! Just make sure it's a SUBSTANTAIL COMMENT


I'm sure she doesn't and probably was talking out of her ass so she wouldn't look dumb but the fact of the matter is that not all people do the right thing and do their job the correct way everytime. I'm sure if hundreds of letters came in then she would become bored with filing and start getting slack.

[Skerb]

we were there for a bit, I talked to the guys from the University of Tenn about their survey and how they would use the results. Like everyone said it pretty much looked like a plan of what they ARE doing versus what they COULD do.

I didnt think about the idea of looking at the old logging trails and trying to map out some trails further from water. Im sure there are some sweet obstacles just waiting to be found.

[broncomania79]

great work mc cracken. thanks for the updated info. im writing new letters this week.

[McCracken]

http://cherokeescout.com/articles/2008/07/02/news/doc486a873d9eed4447255278.txt

...“We want to work with the four-wheel drive organizations. We have never been against ORV people using the area,” he said.

...George Lane, a Trout Unlimited representative, said that for 10 years the organization has been trying to show degradation of the Tellico waters. The ORV clubs have made a good effort to repair the damage, but it isn’t working.

...Candace Wyman, Upper Tellico ORV project coordinator with the Tusquitee Ranger District, said the business surveys will be distributed to the community and business people to get further reactions to the proposed trail closings.

[yellowxj]

I've tried to get back with my customer about mapping out trails but from the topo maps I bought from the FS in murphy I can see some old trails that loop around but keeping them away from the many streams is hard. I havent found time to get back on the ground too. I dont know that actually mapping the alternate routes is as important as stressing that its a good option.

Also found more info about the SELC...I wanted to do alot more research on their multimillion dollar business, read the second comment about them on this web site...
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4480

I also found a web site where they are looking for more staff members to help them with their 10 year $45 million dollar fundraising plan...all of their salaries are just listed as "competetive"

[Ghost]

If the biggest threat to the brook Trout is the rainbow then they should stop stocking the river. If the Trout people really want to help the Brook Trout then stop fishing them for a bit and let them come back. Would it be prudent to sue the FS to ban Trout fishing and stocking of the river? Just a thought from the hip. Also ty to those of you that attended and are keeping us suporters that live 300 miles away the info we need.

[McCracken]

Just look into what the NPS is doing for Brook Trout. They're removing all the trout they find that are not Brooks and restocking the waters. Evidentally they've figured it out. Don't know why the FS hasn't :confused:

[k9crazy]

Remember what the FS has done. They have taking the concern for the brook trout and made the following leaps:

1) brook trout populations are decreasing (no definitive proof exists)
2) it is because of sediment that this is happening (no proof)
3) the OHV area is causing the sediment (no proof)
4) THEREFORE THEY WANT TO CLOSE DOWN THE OHV AREA.

See how the leaps in logic get them to what they want to do? What the NPS is doing in the GSMNP just north of Tellico is what needs to happen here. Check out this website about the history of the trout in the park.

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parknews/brooktrout-news.htm

The first thing they did was stop stocking and stop fishing.

[Ghost]

The first thing they did was stop stocking and stop fishing.

Seems more logical to me then stop wheeling!

[DRaider90]

I wonder what kind of impact it would have if we started making counter proposals to stop stocking and fishing of the area(s) in question. If its done in force with backing it could make them re-evaluate their stance on trying to shut down large parts if not the entire OHV system. A counter offensive could help just as much as going on the defensive. Just a thought.