ok a buddy has a wrangler and wants to go soa, does he want to go reversal or not, pro's and cons???

Don't do the shackle reversal. The only area that it is supposed to help is the street handling. Otherwise, it does more harm than good.

I DAMN sure did not do a reversal for street handling.

I chose to do it so I could mount the "fixed end" of the spring flush with the frame and move my axle 4.5" forward.

I think it is worth doing just to get the damn shackles out of harms way.....

With the reversal you also have to address the driveline cause your going to make the angle more extreme. Going SOA with the same springs is going to put the shackles higher and increase approach angle relative to the tire. My .02 would be to do the SOA and wheel it. If it gets to the point the shackles are causing probs, reverse em.

Defffinatly do the shackle reversal. The benafits are not just for the street. Like the others said the increase in appraoch angle, as well as moving the axle forward. BUT the greatest benefit is the axle will know move freely over rocks they way it should.

For example. With the shackle in the front (normal mount) when the jeep approaches a rock or tree or whatever, the shackle has to move forward for the spring to compress thus causing the entire axle to move slightly forward as it compresses. When the tire comes in contact with the obsticle the tire wants to be pushed backwards as it climbs not forward.

If you do the reversal, the front axle will crawl over rocks and trees with a greater efficiency and smoother, less hop and bounce, Because for the spring to compress in a shackle reversal the shackle moves backwards along with the tire and axle as the spring compresses.

This is one of the greatest mods I did to my rig.

<IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

[ 09-18-2001: Message edited by: rockbound ]

rockbound: maybe you wouldn"t brake all those axles if the tire could move backwords while climbing?????? what do you think?

Originally posted by rockbound:
<STRONG>Defffinatly do the shackle reversal. The benafits are not just for the street. Like the others said the increase in appraoch angle, as well as moving the axle forward. BUT the greatest benefit is the axle will know move freely over rocks they way it should.

For example. With the shackle in the front (normal mount) when the jeep approaches a rock or tree or whatever, the shackle has to move forward for the spring to compress thus causing the entire axle to move slightly forward as it compresses. When the tire comes in contact with the obsticle the tire wants to be pushed backwards as it climbs not forward.

If you do the reversal, the front axle will crawl over rocks and trees with a greater efficiency and smoother, less hop and bounce, Because for the spring to compress in a shackle reversal the shackle moves backwards along with the tire and axle as the spring compresses.

This is one of the greatest mods I did to my rig.

<IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

[ 09-18-2001: Message edited by: rockbound ]</STRONG>

just like my toyota comes from the factory <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> untill I can get him to sell the JEEP, he can at least try to get it to wheel as well as one <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">, J/K, I'm not trying to get him to sell it
<IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by JIM3030:
<STRONG>rockbound: maybe you wouldn"t brake all those axles if the tire could move backwords while climbing?????? what do you think?</STRONG>


I am confused with your question, My tire does move up and backwards during compression or climbing because of the shackle reversal. What do you mean?


<IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

ok I just put the pipe down. it reads different now

Originally posted by JIM3030:
<STRONG>ok I just put the pipe down. it reads different now</STRONG>


No problem I thought I was missing something, was currious to learn. I'll take any advise on helping to keep these damn joints together!


<IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

What they are not telling you is that you will not have to move your axle forward if you don't do a shackle reversal.

I am running 38.5's with no sheetmetal cut in the front. How many of you SR guys can say that?

And what about the driveline? As the axle drops, it pulls away from the TC. Then you will need a long travel driveline. Otherwise it will pull apart.

As far as approach angle, the worst I have seen is on SR. That massive rigid mount in front.

And then what about the pitman arm/tie rod interference cause by moving the axle forward enough to clear 35" tires? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Bob do you drive yours on the street or highway? if you do how does it handle? im trying to decide between reversing or not.

Originally posted by Bob/CA:
<STRONG>
I am running 38.5's with no sheetmetal cut in the front. How many of you SR guys can say that?

Does not matter to me, but yes I cut.

And what about the driveline? As the axle drops, it pulls away from the TC. Then you will need a long travel driveline. Otherwise it will pull apart.

True.

As far as approach angle, the worst I have seen is on SR. That massive rigid mount in front.

That is a "kit" SR. If you look at my post, I stated that the best way to do this, and I should add, ONLY way I would recommend this is with a "Cut and Turn" on the knuckle and install the fixed end of the spring mounted flush with the frame.

That thing that hangs down is there to correct caster on SR kits that do are bolt on. I would not recommend that either.

And then what about the pitman arm/tie rod interference cause by moving the axle forward enough to clear 35" tires? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>


Again, all custom, but if you are going to the trouble of a SOA, do a SR too, you will not be sorry.

I say screw shackle reversals, they only proven benifit is on the street. If your truly worried about clearance issues what about the shackle hanging under the frame with a reversal? The front approach angle can be addresed without reversal if your reative. The Offroad benifits are arguable, some say revresal helps climb by letting the tire move away from an obsticle and some say non reversed is better because it forces the tire into the obsticle getting traction. I have driven several non reversed jeeps and feel they handle just fine, no worse then my yota(actually alot better in many cases)

Only after I did my SO did I hear a good reason to do the SR. Imagine sliding off of a rock and bashing the shackle on something hard. Suddenly you have a very mangled spring. With the SR the same situation will get you a scratched bumper. Not a bad reason at all.
You will probably need a long slip driveshaft with the SR. So add about $300 (ish) to the price of the SO.
Peopel will argue all day long about the differences between the axle moving forwards or backwards on compression. It is a bit of a mute point if you are running completly flat springs anyway. If you are, the SR makes the axle move forward not backwards. It is hard to imagine but that is why you need the longer slip driveline.

Oh yeah, if you are going to do it. Do it when you do the SO. Do not go back in and modify it for a SR at a later time. It is more of a pain in the but than you might think....

This has been debated on here a number of times and for what it's worth I've had the M.O.R.E. SR/Buggy Spring setup for about a year now and love it. It's on a SOA CJ-7 with 36"TSL's. Yes I had to trim the fenders, yes I had to buy a long travel driveline, and yes I had to re-do the steering. Fender's don't matter, I'm going to build flatties anyway. Steering didn't matter I put hi steer on. I was glad it works so well I need a long slip driveline! I just returned from Montrose where I ran with guys that had quarter eliptics, custom coil setups and everything in between. I seemed to get along as well as any of them and better than some. In the end it's personal preference like some others have said. My preference is the reversal.

Originally posted by rockbound:
<STRONG>
For example. With the shackle in the front (normal mount) when the jeep approaches a rock or tree or whatever, the shackle has to move forward for the spring to compress thus causing the entire axle to move slightly forward as it compresses. When the tire comes in contact with the obsticle the tire wants to be pushed backwards as it climbs not forward.

</STRONG>

I think that the original idea behind this was too force the tire into the object in order to get better traction. Which works quite well exceptfor the fact that stock Jeeps can't handle the things we want to climb.

Do the R/S <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> You'll like it. New front shaft for the increase in front travel forward.

Originally posted by Steve Sommer:
<STRONG>This has been debated on here a number of times and for what it's worth I've had the M.O.R.E. SR/Buggy Spring setup for about a year now and love it. It's on a SOA CJ-7 with 36"TSL's. Yes I had to trim the fenders, yes I had to buy a long travel driveline, and yes I had to re-do the steering. Fender's don't matter, I'm going to build flatties anyway. Steering didn't matter I put hi steer on. I was glad it works so well I need a long slip driveline! I just returned from Montrose where I ran with guys that had quarter eliptics, custom coil setups and everything in between. I seemed to get along as well as any of them and better than some. In the end it's personal preference like some others have said. My preference is the reversal.</STRONG>

R U running the M.O.R.E high steer on a D30? How do you like it? I will recomend he goes reverseal <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> Thaks to everyone for there thoughts
<IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by SweetCJ7 aka. Allen Kurtz:
<STRONG>I think that the original idea behind this was too force the tire into the object in order to get better traction. Which works quite well exceptfor the fact that stock Jeeps can't handle the things we want to climb.</STRONG>

Y'know, I haven't heard of anyone moving the rear springs' shackle to the front of the spring for this extra traction while climbing yet.. Why is that?

If a forward shackle is so great for traction in the front, why not in the back, too?

Or maybe it just doesn't make enough of a difference to warrant the effort..

I went RS front on my Scout II after I sheared the center pins, bent the springs, cracked the spring hangers, and bottomed out the front driveshaft and pogo'd the Dana 20, 727->20 adapter, and the 727 'case.

I've also had problems with the spring shackles (when in front) hitting a rock, when an RS would've let me clear just enough of the rock to get the front tires onto it.

-Tom

As far as approach angle, the worst I have seen is on SR. That massive rigid mount in front.
More ( www.mountainoffroad.com (http://www.mountainoffroad.com) ) now sells a "stubby" mount srs system. It throws your caster off, but if you doing SOA/hi-steer at the same time, you can easily address that. Anyway, it looks real nice, the spring mounts hardly hang down at all.

SeaBass 44,
I'm running a custom Hi Steer on a 44. It was built locally here in Idaho by Dan Sullivan who does most of the custom axle and steering setups around here. Does a nice job and is reasonably priced.

There are pro's and con's of doing a shackle reversal/
CON'S
brake dive
long slip drive shaft
watch that the driveshaft doesn't bottom out into the transfercase.


PRO'S
better handling
axle is allowed to move when it strikes a rock (I bent a spring before I had the SR)
able to move the axle further forwards


I have a SOA and a SR, I love it I ahve had my jeep up to 85+ (with 38.5) and it rides like a cadillac, I have no problem with approach angles or anything in the rocks (other than blowing wimpy 267 and 297 u-joint's apart).

I would recomend that anyone do this to their jeep. I don't have any experience with other vehicles.

Craig

I do drive on the street and it handles perfectly. If you are having problems, you have worn bushings, rod ends, or something else. I have absolutly no wander.

Other reported problems for a SR include frame cracks and front u-joint breakage.

Don't let these guys talk you into it just because they have some much invested into it that they can't face that it was a waste of money and time.

And what's up with the approach angle BS. Just look at the huge bracket that is FIXED on the front of a SR. Now tell me again how the angle is improved.

Also, nobody addressed the previously mentioned problems.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

I know poop about jeeps, how they handle or what mods do and dont benefit them. (FJ-guy)

I have absolutely nothing against the shackle being infront of the front axle. I think for the most part the whole deflection/ traction issue is spliting hairs.

the reason I did a SR on my fj55 is that I kept destoying springs. with the SR I can use the fixed hanger to ramp up on rocks as opposed to using the shackle to effectivly bend my main leaf back <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0">.

<font color="yellow">only one other person mentioned this, so I'll elaborate a bit. Doing a SR causes a great amount of Brake Dive. If you have stiff springs, this is not too much of an issue, but since most people soften up spring rates for increased wheel travel this becomes an issue. I can bottom out the front suspension in a panic stop on the street. Depending on my speed and the road surface, the tires occasionally hop off the ground while stopping. This might be relate to some brake proportioning issues I'm still working on, but it never did it before the SR with the same braking system.

The other thing I noticed was a HUGE increase in wheel hop when climbing loose hills. So much that I won't even try a hill I think its going to hop. This might be partially due to the spring rate, but I didn't have it nearly as bad before the SR.

FWIW, I'm also running SOA. and as far as street handling, I've had it up to 104MPH and it handled as good as I could expect a truck on 37" Boggers and beadlocks, towing a 600# trailer to handle <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">... I don't recomment it, but I had to make sure I installed my beadlocks right <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></font c>

Originally posted by Bob/CA:
<STRONG>
Other reported problems for a SR include frame cracks and front u-joint breakage.
</STRONG>

How would a SR make you break more U-joints?

<STRONG>
And what's up with the approach angle BS. Just look at the huge bracket that is FIXED on the front of a SR. Now tell me again how the angle is improved.
</STRONG>

I sure hope this isn't one of those "HUGE" brackets you're talking about - if it is, show me what a small one looks like!

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/racer/1_22_2001/11.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout/jpg/racer/reverse_shackle/4_26_2001/rs_driv.jpg

The front spring eye is HIGHER than it was with the shackle in the front. I have the pinion angle to prove it. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by tsm1mt:
<STRONG>How would a SR make you break more U-joints? </STRONG>

It's called u-joint bind. Gotta watch that pinion angle.

Bob/CA wrote:
<STRONG>Don't let these guys talk you into it just because they have some much invested into it that they can't face that it was a waste of money and time.</STRONG>

If I said it was a waste of time and money I'd be lieing. The offroad "performance" benefits/drawbacks are always up for debate, but two facts are undeniable. 1) The ride IS smoother and it IS more stable. Not a big deal for rock crawling, but I do get mine out of 4-lo from time to time. While this is commonly listed as an on-road benefit, I disagree. Most paved roads are pretty smooth, it's the higher speed offroad environment (usually on the way to "the good stuff") where this benefit shines thru. 2) Risk of damage due to a frontal impact is significantly reduced. Try and drive your shackle up on a rock and you're putting your spring at serious risk of damage, but no worries with a rigid mout up front. "Clearance" or "approach angle" is about the same for me because I tried to keep the spring close to level to minimize the amount of rearward travel on compression, but there's an effective increase in clearance or approach angle because I won't think twice about slamming the spring mount into a rock. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Here's another way to look at it... I don't see any benefit to having the shackle in front, all it gets me is a harsher ride and more risk of spring damage. Nobody said a proper reversal doesn't take some work to be done correctly, but it doesn't have to be expensive. Especially if combined with a spring over because you're getting new driveshafts anyway. I'm no longer a fan of the bolt-on kits anymore either, my reversal cost me $50 in materials and a couple afternoons of my own time.

To those who say that a reversal is an absolute mistake and will cause nothing but problems, I just wanna say that I look forward to seeing pics of your REAR reversal where you've corrected that nasty "shackle at the back" flaw <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> If anything I think this is a testament to the fact that the offroad "performance" benefits / drawbacks (such as forcing a tire into the obstical vs. absorbing it) are really negligable. It's the other benefits that I appreciate and the ONLY drawback that I'm aware of is nose dive under braking, but stiff shocks make a world of difference there <IMG SRC="smilies/beer.gif" border="0"> The rest of the so-called "drawbacks" are really steps that were skipped in a proper installation.

And that's all I have to say about that <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Eric Ruhl ]

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl:
<STRONG>
It's called u-joint bind. Gotta watch that pinion angle.
</STRONG>


True. I didn't correct my pinion angle (yet) and have a pretty good downward tilt to it - but no broken U-joints.

When I cycled the suspension to test-fit the new Tom Wood's 'shaft I found the front pinion yoke was binding on the U-joint zerk <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> so now it has a plug.

1 year and no broken U-joints despite the angle - and that includes WFO throttling and fully unloading the suspension (air-borne)


<STRONG>
my reversal cost me $50 in materials and a couple afternoons of my own time.
</STRONG>

Mine was even less than $50. I swapped the front mount to the rear, rear to the front. Some wear n' tear on my grinding disk, a few feet of MIG-wire and a can of paint.


-Tom

I did the SR and have had a bunch of problems with the front drive line sence. If you run super soft front srings you are going to have front u-joint problems if you don't run a traction bar.

If you want soft springs, SR and no driveline porblems, run a front traction bar.

If you want soft springs and no front driveline problems and no traction bar run the shackles in the front.

Originally posted by badfish:
<STRONG>I did the SR and have had a bunch of problems with the front drive line sence.</STRONG>

Quick question, did you rotate the knuckles when you did the reversal?

FWIW, axle wrap is not dependant on shackle location, but wrap combined with the forward movement of a SR unloading can cause u-joint problems. Just wanted to clarify that SR does not cause axle wrap. Your experience is why it is recommended to rotate the knuckles when doing a SR. Not always necessary, but skipping this step is a gamble. I'm very curious to hear if you skipped this step?

we all run flexy springs on our toy minis with no problems, SR from the factory. I will recomend he do it, he is also going SOA so he can set the pinion angle to what he wants.

Originally posted by SeaBass44:
<STRONG>he is also going SOA so he can set the pinion angle to what he wants.</STRONG>

So long as you rotate the knuckles to correct the caster. This is what I was trying to get at in my post above. Some guys are lucky and don't have to mess with pinion angle, and some do. I was marginal last time without rotating the knuckles (gouged the u-joint straps <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> (before I converted to a u-bolt yoke) but didn't break the u-joint), so this time around I took the extra time and effort to address the pinion angle and caster. <IMG SRC="smilies/beer.gif" border="0">

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Eric Ruhl ]

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl:
<STRONG>Quick question, did you rotate the knuckles when you did the reversal?

FWIW, axle wrap is not dependant on shackle location, but wrap combined with the forward movement of a SR unloading can cause u-joint problems. Just wanted to clarify that SR does not cause axle wrap. Your experience is why it is recommended to rotate the knuckles when doing a SR. Not always necessary, but skipping this step is a gamble. I'm very curious to hear if you skipped this step?</STRONG>

I didn't rotate the knucles because under full lock up forward braking the front springs would wrap so far to bind the front drive line. Backing down a hill climb, my front 8" slip driveline would come apart. With the same springs used with the shackles in the front I didn't have any of these problems, but I got talked into doing the SR because everyone thought that it worked better. Maybe it does, in my case it didn't. I'm just trying to share my dealings with the SR. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by badfish:
<STRONG>I didn't rotate the knucles because under full lock up forward braking the front springs would wrap so far to bind the front drive line.</STRONG>

<IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> Holy crap! To do that on mine (before I rotated the knuckles) I'm guessing I'd have to rotate the housing about 45 degrees in order to bind that u-joint. Static position was near horizontal so I'd have to wrap it back to zero u-joint angle and then to full u-joint bind. Cripes that's nasty!

<STRONG>Backing down a hill climb, my front 8" slip driveline would come apart.</STRONG>

Well depending on the application, 8" might be considered minimum for SR. I had 7" on my front and I hit the limits both ways.

<STRONG>I'm just trying to share my dealings with the SR. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

And I appreciate that, it's an interesting situation. I'm still blown away by that amount of wrap under braking though, yowza. I'd waste my springs if I wrapped them that bad. Anything unusual in your suspension layout? Offset center pin, buggy leafs, extended shackles, etc?

I used stock rear wrangler springs. I only ran them for a year because of the problems. I have sence moved to 2.5" procomp wrangler rears with a traction bar and a 13" slip driveline from highangle. The funnest thing is I was to lazy to get rid of the SR. Havent't wheeled it yet so I don't know if I solved the problem.

Originally posted by badfish:
<STRONG>I used stock rear wrangler springs. </STRONG>

Wow, I heard they were soft but that's impressive. You sure they didn't say Rubbermaid on there somewhere? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> Best of luck with the new setup, let us know how it turns out <IMG SRC="smilies/beer.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl:
<STRONG>Wow, I heard they were soft but that's impressive. You sure they didn't say Rubbermaid on there somewhere? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> Best of luck with the new setup, let us know how it turns out <IMG SRC="smilies/beer.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Lets just say that after 1 year of wheelin the had a neg. arch <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> You should have seen what it did to my steering under full accell and hard brakings. Lets just say it wasn't pretty <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Seams like shackle in rear of front spring is still the way to go.

read the posts from Zuc in the toy section. He does a " un-reversal " on his toy and makes a good argument for shackles in the front. <IMG SRC="smilies/grinpimp.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by highlander:
<STRONG>read the posts from Zuc in the toy section. He does a " un-reversal " on his toy and makes a good argument for shackles in the front. <IMG SRC="smilies/grinpimp.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

I read it all and don't belive for a min I would run the shackle in the front of my toyota.

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl:
<STRONG>Quick question, did you rotate the knuckles when you did the reversal? </STRONG>


Just a quick reminder: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Bob/CA:
<STRONG>
Just a quick reminder: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Yet another reminder: There's always room for improvement <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/beer.gif" border="0">

This topic never ends LOL.

And what's up with the approach angle BS. Just look at the huge bracket that is FIXED on the front of a SR. Now tell me again how the angle is improved.
Just out of curiosity I just measured the approach angle on my CJ5, 78 degrees with SR, 38.5s, SOA, Alcan SOA springs that move the axle 2.5" forward(square tube driveshaft w/14"travel). I don't think that too bad, is it?

Did all the stuff in your sig replace broken stuff <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Well I figure I'd throw what I did into the mess:

I did a SR on a stock narrow trac Dana 30 that was SOA, cost ~$30 in materials...

- Put in a drop pitman arm and did not rotate the knuckles, so I'm running 3-4 degrees of caster
- I found with the SR the ride was more harsh
- It did improve handling on the road, but not a whole lot, tracked stright before and after
- Brake dive isn't bad, probably do to the stiff springs
- I'm not running a long travel DS, if I limit the drop 1-2" it dosen't come apart
- It did move the front axle forward ~1.5"

Course I'm going to rip it all back out anyway when I upgrade things...

I'vwe got an SOA w/ a SR on it and would not have it any other way. I think it handles better both on & off road. It also protects the spring alittle better as I have seen Jeeps w/ the front mounted shackles hit a rockl and bend the spring when the shackle was forced backwards & the Jeep was going forwards.
If you are worried about the approach angle, get the new MORE fixed mounts for it.
It does produce a little more nose diev when I brake, but that ain't no big deal.
I run 35's on mine w/ 2 1/2" Wrangler springs w/ no fender trimming and minor rubbing during full stuff and turning.

I cant leave this one alone. All the talk about the axle being able to move backwards with a sr only apply if you have lift springs. If your running flat springs in a soa application, the tire already moves rearward when it flexes, so whats the use of the sr? Sit down without the crack pipe and think about this for a minute before flaming, it makes sense. If your running a lift spring, you might see some improvement from a sr, so fabricate to your hearts desire, but with flat springs, your wasting time and energy that could be spent wheelin. Keep things simple, just wheel the piss outa the thing <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> . Just my .02, enjoy