So how do I remove this?

[Azzy2000]

So I finally got around to working on my old Index mill again.. It has what I'm guessing is an adapter that goes into the quill and uses a different size/taper collet on the bottom. When I got the mill, this was already installed, along with a drill chuck.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/azzy2000/Index%20milling%20machine/Indexmill004.jpg

The lower part comes out easily

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/azzy2000/Index%20milling%20machine/Indexmill006.jpg

I have no idea how to get the upper part of it out of the quill... Any ideas? I have the inner and outer quill nuts off in case it looks a bit weird.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/azzy2000/Index%20milling%20machine/Indexmill005.jpg

Also.. how do I tell if the quill is R8 or B&S 9 or ??

Thanks

[billybob_81067]

Does it have a drawbar sticking out of the top? If so then loosen it so that it has a bit of a gap and then tap on it with a deadblow to knock that adapter thing out. If not then I have no clue!

If you do get it out then post up a pic of the shank on the adapter and someone might be able to tell you what kind of arbor you've got.

[blackrider]

when the chuck is all the way open ,is there a screw inside like on a hand drill[reverse thread]?

[jnutter]

I had that same deal in my Gorton when I got it. That's a double taper collet and collet holder from Universal, with a drill chuck on a straight shank. You can see it in this photo from when I was bringing it home. You can't really tell what the spindle taper is until you get that stuff out. Once you get that out show us a picture and/or take some measurements and compare them to measurements found in Machinerys Handbook.

http://members.tcq.net/jnutter/GortonMastermill122/photos/photo6.jpg

I had to beat the hell out of the draw bar to pop it loose. Old style B&S and MT tapers can really stick when the tool has been locked in there for years. Afterwards I had to cleanup the top of the draw bar to get a wrench on it again.

If you want to figure out which size double taper collet that is, go to this page http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/DT_Collet.html. I have a set of ZZ collets and a collet holder, but I never use any of it. The collet holder eats up too much of the space between the spindle and the table. I use B&S9 collets instead.

[Azzy2000]

Thanks for the suggestions guys..

I still cannot get it loose. Im kind of afraid to hammer on anything too hard, dont want to break any internals.

Is the drawbar the splined bar that goes through the center of the pulleys? It looks like it has been hammered on pretty good by the previous owner.. Is this where I should tap it? I tried tapping the adapter just below the quill to try and break it free or pop it out... no luck.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/azzy2000/Index%20milling%20machine/001.jpg

[jnutter]

Is the draw bar missing? I can't tell from that picture. Got another picture, down from the top and at a 45 deg angle?

The very top part looks round, rather than hex or square.

One other thought - I know people have built pullers to get those out. Make something that threads onto the collet holder and pushes on the spindle. I was on the verge of making one when mine came free.

[Azzy2000]

Is the draw bar missing? I can't tell from that picture. Got another picture, down from the top and at a 45 deg angle?

The very top part looks round, rather than hex or square.

One other thought - I know people have built pullers to get those out. Make something that threads onto the collet holder and pushes on the spindle. I was on the verge of making one when mine came free.

The top is round and threaded for a nut. The rest of the bar is splined to the pulleys.

I was thinking about fabbing up some sort of puller earlier... I was hoping I could just pop it loose, but a puller is probably the best way to get it out.

Thanks :beer:

[billybob_81067]

The top is round and threaded for a nut. The rest of the bar is splined to the pulleys.

I was thinking about fabbing up some sort of puller earlier... I was hoping I could just pop it loose, but a puller is probably the best way to get it out.

Thanks :beer:


It looks like you have no drawbar which is really strange... That top splined shaft and the threaded shaft above it are the same piece? Or is the splined shaft hollow and the threaded part is a seperate shaft inside of it?

As for getting that out... maybe put your quill nuts back on and torch out a piece of plate to fit around that notch below the quill nut threads and above the taper adapter. Then when you run the quill up with the handle you can put some spacers in between the plate and the mill head and it should press out the adapter. Just an idea anyways.

[Azzy2000]

It looks like you have no drawbar which is really strange... That top splined shaft and the threaded shaft above it are the same piece? Or is the splined shaft hollow and the threaded part is a seperate shaft inside of it?

As for getting that out... maybe put your quill nuts back on and torch out a piece of plate to fit around that notch below the quill nut threads and above the taper adapter. Then when you run the quill up with the handle you can put some spacers in between the plate and the mill head and it should press out the adapter. Just an idea anyways.

The threads are part of the splined shaft. The shaft is splined to the pulleys and goes through the quill to transmit power. It moves up and down with the quill when feeding up/down.

I'm still not sure what a drawbar is.. this is my first mill.

Good idea on using the quill as a press. Thanks.

[billybob_81067]

Well you definately do not have a drawbar. A drawbar is basically a long bolt that goes through the spindle and then threads into the collet, or tapered shank that you want to "draw" up tightly into the spindle/quill. Then when you want to change it out to a different sized collet or switch tools you just loosen it a bit, smack it with a deadblow from above and it loosens everything up. Seems kinda funky that a mill wouldn't have one because something has to hold it in there otherwise the vibration from milling would work it loose.

If you could find someone else who has an old index mill, or a forum for them they would be much more help than us.

[Azzy2000]

Well, I'm missing the drawbar apparently. The spindle shaft is hollow, about 5/8" I.D. or so..

Going to call Index on Monday and see how much for a new drawbar and nut. Thankfully they still support these old mills and have most parts available. I dont know if the threads on top of the spindle shaft can be repaired or not, they're mushroomed a bit at top. Hopefully I can file down the excess and run a die over it.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/azzy2000/Index%20milling%20machine/003.jpg

[Wicked_S10]

The draw bar threads into the back of the tool holding device. I am not sure why the top of your spindle has threads, but they are likely not used for typical draw bar action. Normally a drawbar looks like a long ass bolt with a large head for some type of spanner wrench. Probably the threads are mushroomed from someone beating on the old draw bar. When it pops the tool holder it will smack into the top of the spindle...

Here is what I would do, get a piece of round stock just a bit smaller than the spindle bore and long enough to bottom out on the tool holder and tall enough that you can still whack it from the top. Lock the quill in place and try driving the tool holder out. Go gently at first to make sure you are not going to mushroom your drive bar and get it stuck in the spindle. It could take some significant force to pop it loose, especially if it is a R8 taper and it has sheared its drive pin... If you can't remove it with lots of penetrating oil and mild to moderate whacking, then you may have to remove the whole spindle/quill assembly and take it to a machine shop to get it removed.

As for using the quill to try and pull it out, I would definitely not suggest that, you can easily strip the pinion that drive the quill. It was never intended to be subjected to that kind of force, and besides, sharp blows tend to do a much better job of releasing a taper than constant press force.

*edit* the puller that nutter describes would be a much better option than using the quill itself. Oh, and it is not that unusual for a mill to not have a draw bar, there are lots of quick change spindle designs that have no drawbar. I would agree that yours is not any type of QC design, and should have a draw bar though.

About a draw bar, even if wells index still sells them, unless they are the same as their current models, then they are likely going to be very expensive. There is no reason that you can't go to a good industrial fastener supply and buy a piece of grade 8 all thread, and make your own draw bar. IIRC, most tapers used in US tooling use a 7/16 or 1/2 NF, so it should not be hard to pull off. I have made a few draw bars.

Good Luck,
Jason

[oldjeep]

Do you suppose that the threads on the spindle are for a tool to push the drawbar out? Something like a steering wheel puller.

[PTSchram]

Maybe try a carbon dioxide fire extinguisher to contract the inserted piece? If you could thermally shock it, the adapter might just pop right out.

Whatever you do, please place a piece of wood on the table so that when/if it does come out, it doesn't damage the table.

[jnutter]

Check to see if the threads on top are left hand. My spindle has a left hand nut on top to capture the drawbar. All I have to do is loosen it and it forces the tooling out of the spindle - no hammer. I'd guess you probably have a B&S9 taper. I've never seen the left hand nut on R8. R8 is supposed to be self releasing, but still usually needs a whack with a hammer to knock the collet loose.

Second on what PT is saying about dropping a piece of round stock in and hitting it. I agree - don't use rack and pinion for the quill feed to push it out or to hold the quill still when you hit it. Make sure you lock the quill before you hit the bar your drop through the top of the spindle. You don't want to have to replace those parts.

[Wicked_S10]

Second on what PT is saying about dropping a piece of round stock in and hitting it...


Awe come on man! Them's fightin' words-- and here I thought we were friends :D

[PTSchram]

OK, I have another low-touch idea!

How about we put the chuck back in and place a pan with dry ice and anti-freeze in it on the table and immerse the chuck in this solution while at the same time, we use a heat gun to gently heat the quill.

The temperature difference might be enough to release the insert.

If this doesn't work, heat the quill with the heat gun and then, quickly extend the spindle and immerse the chuck into the anti-freeze/dry ice solution.

[solarpower]

OK, I have another low-touch idea!

How about we put the chuck back in and place a pan with dry ice and anti-freeze in it on the table and immerse the chuck in this solution while at the same time, we use a heat gun to gently heat the quill.

The temperature difference might be enough to release the insert.

If this doesn't work, heat the quill with the heat gun and then, quickly extend the spindle and immerse the chuck into the anti-freeze/dry ice solution.

I don't want to piss on your science experiment but...

I would not recommend taking what is apparently old (quite old) steel and then suddenly go from 1 extreme temperature to the opposite extreme. Depending on the amount of penetration of the hot and cold you could easily do some damage to the integrity of the steel components itself...

just saying..

[PTSchram]

I don't want to piss on your science experiment but...

I would not recommend taking what is apparently old (quite old) steel and then suddenly go from 1 extreme temperature to the opposite extreme. Depending on the amount of penetration of the hot and cold you could easily do some damage to the integrity of the steel components itself...

just saying..

You're not getting it anywhere near hot nor cold enough to do any lasting damage. It would require hundreds, if not thousands of degrees of temperature difference to cause physical damage to the steel. In this case, I'd be surprised if a temperature difference of more than 500' could be achieved using a heat gun and dry ice/ethylene glycol.

Thermal shock would do far less damage than banging on it with a hammer.

The guy who taught me to use thermal shock, taught me while I was an apprentice A&P. If it's OK to do with airplane parts, it's good enough for antique machinery.

[fj40guy]

Time to make your own drawbar!

Ask INDEX MILL the price and availability. I really want to hear what they charge for them (the Index Quill bearings are specialty items... bearing houses wanted $800 for the four, yet Index sells them for a 1/3 that price... you never can tell).

Bridgeport Drawbars are not the same.

Still this will give you an idea of what is required:
http://bridgeport.askmisterscience.com/drawbar.htm
Length is different for the Index Mill... but same idea applies.

Basically the collets are threaded in the end (7/16-20). The drawbar is used to pull it into the taper. To release I loosen the drawbar and WHACK the end with a big brass faced hammer. Remember my Index555 has a R8 retrofit.

Anyone with a Mill should always make up a spare for that 'someday'. :flipoff2:

Tom

EDIT: Three photos attached. Draw bar is 20" overall. About 1" threaded end with 7/16-20 tpi to fit into collet. Top nut is right hand threaded, 7/8" x 20 tpi. Collar is silversoldered in place. As you tighten down it just pulls collet against quill)

[jnutter]

Awe come on man! Them's fightin' words-- and here I thought we were friends :D

Doh :homer: don't know where I got that from :confused:

[Wicked_S10]

No sweat man. Just jerkin' your chain a bit.

Now, back to the OP, did you get it out yet? I looked at the model55 on lathes.uk, in fact I looked at all the index models, and although the pictures are scans from really old product brochures, I can't see those threads on the top of any of the spindles shown...

Later,
Jason

[fj40guy]

You can see the nut on the INDEX 55 model. Nut has internal threads,
so just looks like an extension on the quill. Drawbar sticking out the top.

On the scan on the model 555... quill is lowered so the top nut and draw bar are inside the spindle. :flipoff2:

Comparing the two pages... model 55 drawbar will be shorter than model 555 (i.e. 20" long) drawbar.

55: http://www.lathes.co.uk/index/page4.html

555: http://www.lathes.co.uk/index/page3.html

I posted a picture on the nut in the response above. Smooth with two flats on it. Internally threaded 7/8" x 20 tpi.

Tom

Now, back to the OP, did you get it out yet? I looked at the model55 on lathes.uk, in fact I looked at all the index models, and although the pictures are scans from really old product brochures, I can't see those threads on the top of any of the spindles shown...

Later,
Jason

[Azzy2000]

I tried whacking it a bit with a piece of round stock down through the spindle. No dice. I didnt want to get medieval with it and break something.

This has been put on the back burner for a few more weeks until I have the time to really concentrate on it. Too much other stuff going on right now.

Thanks everyone for the help/suggestions.. I'll update this when I make some progress.

[Azzy2000]

Did I say a few weeks? :laughing:

Well between other projects and dealing with hurricane cleanup and repairs to the house, this little project got put off for several months.

I tried beating it out from above while supporting the quill from below. No dice.

I built a puller and tried to pop it loose. When that didnt work, I resorted to tightening the puller down and then beating on it through the spindle with the piece of round stock to pop it out. No luck.

Soaking with PB blaster for several weeks before trying again didnt help either.

So I finally decided to dissasemble the head of the mill and remove the quill/spindle assembly so that I can take it to a good machinist and have them remove the adapter.

[Azzy2000]

I had to pull alomst every part of the quill/spindle feed mechanism apart, as well as the drive pulleys. This was my first time tearing in to a machine tool of any type so it took a little while. Between the hard to read schematics provided by Wells Index and my lack of general mill knowledge it took me quite a while to get it dissasembled.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/azzy2000/Index%20milling%20machine/001-2.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/azzy2000/Index%20milling%20machine/002-1.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/azzy2000/Index%20milling%20machine/004.jpg

So.. I finally got the quill/spindle assy. pulled out. Everything looks pretty good. The quill is not scored or scratched up, just some light wear spots here and there and a few little dings at the very bottom edge.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/azzy2000/Index%20milling%20machine/005.jpg

The quill bore is in very good shape, no problems that I can see.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/azzy2000/Index%20milling%20machine/003-1.jpg

[Azzy2000]

So... my question now is. What would be the best method of getting this adapter out?

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/azzy2000/Index%20milling%20machine/006.jpg

Have a machine shop mill down the center of it to remove as much material as possible and then try to press it out?

I would like to get it out without damaging the spindle taper. I found a set of B&S #9 collets for free so I'm not planning on having it reground to R8 at this time.

[Azzy2000]

Anybody? Bueller?

[braxton357]

Get a bigger f'n hammer and rod, or try a press. Shouldn't be this difficult.

[Azzy2000]

Get a bigger f'n hammer and rod, or try a press. Shouldn't be this difficult.

You're right. It shouldnt be, but it is. This thing is not coming out with the aid of a BFH, trust me. A press is not very practical either as it would have to use a 20" long, ~1/2" dia. piece of round stock through the spindle to push on the top of the adapter... not the best setup for pressing.

I'm going to take it to a machine shop today and see what they think.

[fj40guy]

One tool I love for this stuff.... my 4X Rivet gun. Yep, aircraft tool that is meant for large rivets, but with a nice trigger on it. (Air chisels don't have that nice trigger function).

Just vibrates the stuck item till it gives up. Sweet tool for ball joints, but also works on things like this.

Other thought is to heat & cool the stuck adapter. Heat, vibration, penetrating oil.... just keep at it. (Photo shows the rust ring on the adapter looking dry... just soak that sucker with PB Blaster).

[randii]

Set it up in a press, with some sort of fixture to keep it square and well-supported. Take the pressure up slow, and smack it near the junction on either side with a dead blow hammer (stand inline with the frame of the press and swing around the sides, sometimes press-fit tapers can be *energetic* upon release.

Less likely to help, but in the interests of being thorough, have you tried thermal shock? Put the whole thing in an oven and get it HOT, then set the insert directly onto a good-sized block of dry ice. Thermal-shock it a couple of times like this, with a rest-period steeped in good penetrating oil.

Randii