I have done some searches and can't find crap on this subject. I need to fix/help fix the axle wrap on the front of my buddies jeep. Its a spring over with a shackle reversal so the traditional trac bar setup wont work because it would have to go to the front of the jeep. Slapper bars would catch on everything, and I really dont think helper springs would help that much. Any Ideas, it wraps so bad it seperates the front driveshaft.

Originally posted by RockGolem
I have done some searches and can't find crap on this subject. I need to fix/help fix the axle wrap on the front of my buddies jeep. Its a spring over with a shackle reversal so the traditional trac bar setup wont work because it would have to go to the front of the jeep. Slapper bars would catch on everything, and I really dont think helper springs would help that much. Any Ideas, it wraps so bad it seperates the front driveshaft.

Might need some details.:rolleyes: YJ, CJ, flat fender? What front axle? What front springs? What shakle reversal kit?

I got 28 pages after I searched under axle wrap did you really read all those pages:rolleyes: You little fibber

28 pages of people asking about axle wrap, nothing in there about front axle wrap with a shackle reversal.

The vehicle is a YJ with a custom shackle reversal/SOA. Mopar 360 NV4500 Dana 300 flipped, dual 70s and 40" boggers. Running 4" lift CJ springs. We thought about swapping in some wrangler springs but because of the width of the wrangler springs we would need to re-fabricate the Shackle reversal to fit the wider springs.

Never heard of axle wrap on the front axle. The driveshaft should act as an anit-wrap bar.

About half of the SRS systems I have seen move the axle forward an inch. Combine that with the fact that the axle's radius of motion is around the front hanger instead of the rear a new long travel driveshaft is required. I haven't done mine yet but you could be looking at ~6" of slip travel. The stock shackle configuration yields only about an inch of travel. You don't say whether or not he got a new driveshaft or had his modified.

EDIT:
That sounds like one bad Jeep. Got any pictures? Have you talked to Down East Offroad?

Originally posted by Recurve
Never heard of axle wrap on the front axle. The driveshaft should act as an anit-wrap bar.



Not really. It'll just wrap until the shaft pulls apart. ;)

Originally posted by mike


Not really. It'll just wrap until the shaft pulls apart. ;)

:confused:Okay then, must be some other reason why you don't hear much about it. M.O.R.E. recommends against buggy springs on the rear because of axle wrap but they built a bunch of systems for the front. I can't put my finger on it but I thought I read that a SRS/buggy spring set up on the front was okay because the front axle set up actually forced the buggies against the frame under acceleration. I realize we aren't talking about buggy springs here though.

Originally posted by Recurve


:confused:Okay then, must be some other reason why you don't hear much about it. M.O.R.E. recommends against buggy springs on the rear because of axle wrap but they built a bunch of systems for the front. I can't put my finger on it but I thought I read that a SRS/buggy spring set up on the front was okay because the front axle set up actually forced the buggies against the frame under acceleration. I realize we aren't talking about buggy springs here though.

Well, it's definatley not as much wrap as rear springs, but I've experienced it and so have several people that I've wheeled with. I've been working out how to do exactly this on my next project cause I think with the much longer leafs it will be an issue

Why wouldn't a traction bar to the rear work? You'd need to allow for length changes as the suspention articulates, but other than that it should work just like the rear. Get a drave shaft that has a longer slip joint.

Originally posted by newt
Why wouldn't a traction bar to the rear work? You'd need to allow for length changes as the suspention articulates, but other than that it should work just like the rear. Get a drave shaft that has a longer slip joint.
I have a SOA/shackle reversal and I experience a lot of wheel hop/axle wrap. I have 15" of travel in my front d-shaft so that's not a problem. The problem with a traction bar to the rear is that the axle moves forward as the axle drops and it's not in the same arc that the traction bar would need to move in. I'm just dealing with it for now, maybe a thicker spring pack in the future.

Here's a horrible pic of a traction bar on a front axle, with the shackles to the rear. (It's on a Toy, FYI)

Anyway, it'll work. The more flexy your springs are, the longer and more rearward-angled you need to make the shackle the traction bar attaches to.

http://www.rocklogic4x4.com/tracbar.jpg

If I am reading this right, your running narrow cj springs on the front?

That could be a reason your experiencing more axle wrap then normal. If your running Rear CJ springs front and rear then the Wrangler springs are a direct bolt in. Maybe add a custom leaf pack to the front and see if that fixes the problem.

It's definitely a problem that should have a fix beyond stiffer spring packs. Think about it, you're climbing so the shackles swing forward, plus the pinion trying to dive for the ground when you gas it pulling the springs down more. I think there's a lot of people out there that would be doing a lot better on the climbs with wrap control...
I don't have a bar on yet, but will have to do something soon, UROC Vernal is coming up quick.

I understand there is a need for antiwrap bar on he front but I think a wider spring wouldnt wrap as much as a narrow spring.

I'm running 4.5 lift RE YJ springs on my CJ8 and don't have any dramatic wrap. BTW this is with a MORE shackle reversal, D60's and 40" boggers. The axle does seem to hop some but nothing like what you are describing.

Someone posted a while back on the construction of SRS driveshafts and nobody replied. Unless the axle is moved forward it doesn't need to be any longer but the slip yoke stub needs to be longer, right? Can an existing shaft be modifed with a new longer stub? Where did you get your shafts or how did you have them made?

Originally posted by Bigred84cj8
I'm running 4.5 lift RE YJ springs on my CJ8 and don't have any dramatic wrap. BTW this is with a MORE shackle reversal, D60's and 40" boggers. The axle does seem to hop some but nothing like what you are describing.

If the axle hops, that is exactly what the traction bar is for. On the Toyota pictured above, we had problems with it only on the steepest, bumpiest climbs. The front would start bouncing just a bit, which would completely end forward progress.

I took a CJ driveshaft, cut the slip end off. Took a Ford driveshaft, cut the other end off- slipped them together and welded it up. Voila, lots more slip travel.
But it still pulls apart, only when the front starts hopping. Waiting for the high angle special now.

2 thoughts...1 is ditch the skinny springs ;)

2. Get a travel master drive shaft. Are you sure its wrapping that bad? Or just flexing till the drive shaft seperates?

Originally posted by Keith Strong

2. Get a travel master drive shaft.

Where?

Well, I use Gary at Stockton Drive Line Service 1-800-451-7048, but I also recomend Jesse from High angle drive line. Both are on the board, and both do EXCELLENT work!

I run a High angle on my five now. Jess does good work

I used to have a similar problem with my YJ, my 2.5 doesn't generate very much wheel hop, but my old front shaft would pull out once in a while, then it got really bad, like when I put it on the hoist and the droop would pull out the shaft. Solved that issue with a 28" travel front shaft, but while whipping some shitties this winter in 30" of fresh powder (yeah, a 2.5 can have some skinny pedal fun) I noticed some violent front end hop, some buddies said my inside front tire was jumping up and down, so perhaps some sort of anti-wrap on the front is in order. My old toyota had a link bar that went forward from the front axle, that might be the ticket.

One solution is to double shackle the front spring and 4-link it. This should fix any axle warp.

Originally posted by nobody20
One solution is to double shackle the front spring and 4-link it. This should fix any axle warp.

That sounds very interesting. Any pics and more info?

RockGolem,

What did you do to fix this?

The last couple times I have gone out on every climb I have had crazy wheel hop in the front. The first steep climb my axle pulled about 6" forward and twisted which yanked my shaft apart.

I am in the beginning process of coming up for a solution to this front wheel hop and would like to know what your solution was/is.

The toy traction bar looks like a viable solution, but does it restrict droop?

Originally posted by diiulio
The toy traction bar looks like a viable solution, but does it restrict droop?

Nope, it made no difference that we could notice, either droop or compression. It did make for a lot less nosedive during braking though. :D

I lean, do you have a pic of the shackle set up?

What I want to know is did you match the shackle angle of the shackle of the spring or did you adjust it all? and is the end of the traction bar above or below the fixed mount of the shackle?

Thanks
Jason

I don't have any pics, it's dark and scary up in there. :) The shackle is mounted to the tranny crossmember, and the traction bar mounts to the top of the shackle. (just because that's the only place it could fit) Space is tight, everything is tucked in between the tranny and the front driveshaft. The shackle doesn't match the angle of the spring shackles, but it is leaning rearward as much as it can without hitting the face of the Tcase under compression--that ensures it won't invert forward under extreme droop.

Originally posted by Recurve
Never heard of axle wrap on the front axle. The driveshaft should act as an anit-wrap bar.



Dude, you must be hanging out a JU way too much.

I agree with Steve. Put on 2.5" springs. Go buy some rancho spring clamps and put them at the shackle end of the spring, close to the eye. Put them on fairly snug, and weld the tabs down. I wont hurt the flex much, but will really help keep the wrap to a min. 40's and a 60 create a lot of leverage on the springs. If it wraps to far, so long yoke and pinion.:eek:

Originally posted by Keith


Dude, you must be hanging out a JU way too much.



Yeah, taught me everything I don't know.:emb4:

I got out and tested my $10 fix this weekend. I need to find more vertical to truly test it out, but this same climb would wrap pretty good before, climbed with no drama this time.
I just picked up a long Chevy leaf, 2nd in the pack. This needs to be a fairly flat leaf with not much arch. Cut it in half and mounted on top of the spring pack with one end above the axle and the other end coming back almost to the shackle, upside down.
It looks kinda funny, people think my springs are broken. :confused: But it doesn't seem to interfere with flex at all, and helped with wrap a lot.

Slagburn
can you post a pic???
What spring, front or rear, what model and year????
All this would help tremendously!!
I've got real severe hop with the bigblock, more so on pavement but I know its there and it tends to "S" springs pretty quick!!
I don't have any problems with front shaft coming apart!
I run MORE SRS w/BUGGY, 2.5OME springs,D60 and just power braking really flexes up the front springs!!
Lotsa pics would really help.....TIA

I will get the batteries charging for the digi..
No idea what exactly the springs were from, the guy said Chevy. I had some with lots of arch and they obviously weren't going to work, so went with some that were closer to flat.
I cut the excess off the spring center bolt and laid the leaf on top of the pack, used some c-clamps to flatten it out. Got some 1/4 plate and bent the ends to cradle the leaf, welded that to the spring plates. Then, since I didn't have a clamp to keep the new leafs from walking, welded the ends of the springs right to the plate.
Anything will help- too beefy of a spring and it will limit flex, and this won't do all that a wrap bar will. But it is a cheap and easy stopgap fix.
I'll get you pics this time tomorrow when the batteries are up.

I am having this problem now and want a way to correct it. After searching I have heard many people say that a shackle reversal makes this problem worse. I have 7 leaf waggy springs on the front and with good traction you can watch my springs S shape bad and the front pinion will head towards the ground. Others have told me to use stiffer springs and I know this will help but I like the way the waggys ride. I will do whatever I need to and eliminate this problem. Maybe I will just build a antiwrap bar for the front like I have on the rear, but they do limit flex some what.

Originally posted by 4Bangler
My old toyota had a link bar that went forward from the front axle, that might be the ticket.

Yea but that's mostly to help the push pull steering. Those panard pars hinder ALOT of flex since there shorter then the actual leaf is... It jsut keeps parell to that push pull drag link so you dont have as bad of bump steer...

WIth cross over steering though, you coudl co a short bar like that but make it as long as the leaf form center pin to eye...

Originally posted by I Lean
Here's a horrible pic of a traction bar on a front axle, with the shackles to the rear. (It's on a Toy, FYI)

Anyway, it'll work. The more flexy your springs are, the longer and more rearward-angled you need to make the shackle the traction bar attaches to.

http://www.rocklogic4x4.com/tracbar.jpg


I'm confused as to why the anti-wrap bar idea was shut down this seems like the most obvious solution.

if it doesn't flow just right during droop then get creative.

"nessesity is the mother of invention"

I've had a hard time with my MORE SRS/buggy and axle wrap. I bought a tom woods extended travel driveshaft with 24" of travel. I hoped that that would help some with the wrap. I'm sure it helped sum but I still have some wrap. I don't know what the solution is but I can tell that the buggy springs make it a lot easier for the unwanted axle motion.

After I installed my srs system I could not get the buggy springs to release from the frame so I cut some narrower and softer stock CJ springs and replaced the hard buggy springs included in the buggy kit. They release now but they add to the axle wrap problem to much. I can hear them slapping or chaddering on hard uphill climbs. I'm going to change the buggy springs back to the hard ones. BTW, I've never seen these buggy springs add to my trail capabilities. The one good thing (and what sold me on it)was the ease of install (as a part of the SRS system) and the adjustability of the shackle angles.

I need to change my setup to rid myself of the axle hop. I'd like to hear how others have battled this.

I used to have axle wrap on mine after the Shackle reverse. So I out the shackles back on the front. No more problems.