So it seems that we have come across the dawn of a new era. Pat Gremillion, Randy Ellis, Walker Evans and more are all suppose to be having ifs irs rigs for competition. Well i can understand the advantages since they claim that it is becomeing a rock racing sport but we have yet to see any real world proof that they will be truely competative. (or have we?) :confused:

So is this something that we may start seeing on trail rigs since a trail buggy has almost become a norm now.

How about you folks who have just completed a buggy or felt you were on the cutting edge with what you were doing. :cool: Do you think ifs/irs will last or is it a fad? Is it something you wish you would have incorporated into your prodject?

LETS HEAR IT!!! :D

When you are constantly on full throttle over obstacles does flex really matter?

I'm sure they know more than i do, but I think it would suck on real trails.

When you are constantly on full throttle over obstacles

Plenty of people still finese most of the obstacles, the time limits are plenty unless you get hung up, which happens for sure. It will be really interesting to see how all of these ifs/irs rigs do.

Originally posted by MudYoTa
When you are constantly on full throttle over obstacles does flex really matter?

Plenty of finesse at the last ERoCC event. Troy Meyers & Ken Shupe just about finessed every obstacle (ended up 1st and 3rd). I watched Troy and he hardly has to spin a tire, just drives very precise w/ a well built rig.

I'll buy into it when I see ifs/irs winning consistently and not breaking

Originally posted by bigdude
I'll buy into it when I see ifs/irs winning consistently and not breaking

I'll second that. I just cant see it becoming a commonplace add-on. I think Scott (Rockstomper) has taken IFS pretty damn far and I think he will tell you that solid front is the way to go.

I think it is to much crap for the common man to fabricate and I dont think there is a stock IFS setup out there that is durable enough to handle mass abuse.

Id have to see it to believe it.

Originally posted by TyTy


I'll second that. I just cant see it becoming a commonplace add-on. I think Scott (Rockstomper) has taken IFS pretty damn far and I think he will tell you that solid front is the way to go.

I think it is to much crap for the common man to fabricate and I dont think there is a stock IFS setup out there that is durable enough to handle mass abuse.

Id have to see it to believe it.

You bring up a couple good points.

Yes Scott has/did take IFS pretty far, which is cool. But I think he mostly stuck to factory design with beefier parts. When/if you can start to design your own IFS set-up like some of these guys are doing, You can realy push the envelope as far as strength.

Also; Yes it's true there is no factory design that can handle competition abuse without breakage, but isn't that what the sport is becoming all about? IE: the Jeep Rubicon. If the factories hear the complaints about IFS in hard real world offroad use, maybe they'll pay attention to what's happening here, and build around some of these concepts.

I'm not saying I want to go to IFS, but I'm also saying it's not an impossibility either.

MY .02....brought to you by the letters P.O. & R. and the number 14

I agree that the straight front (and rear) axle is the way to go for now. But never under estimate the talents (and money)of guys like Walker Evans. If it can be done, Walkers people will do it.

Originally posted by Cliffhanger

If the factories hear the complaints about IFS in hard real world offroad use, maybe they'll pay attention to what's happening here, and build around some of these concepts.

I agree with you there. My belief is that it would take a corporate effort to make something like this available to the common man (read as normal financial status) in an unbreakable format. However what would the performance benefits be in either case, custom or production?

I feel ifs rides like a champ. My Tahoe is much more comfy at speed on a bumpy road then my YJ. However, smashing into rocks at 5000 rpms, I'll stick w/ a solid axle.

You also make a good point about breakage in this sport. If your junk stays in one piece then your that much further ahead of the game. Simplicity and strength seem to go hand and hand with solid axles. Definitely and easier repair in competition.

The only advantage I can see right now is you can angle back your control arms 20 deg or so. This allows you to ram rocks to get over them ad speed. And solid axle only moves up and down, generally, so when you hit something sraight on....you get the picture. With the IFS the suspension would take all the force of a sraight on hit.

somebody may build a decent setup and win an event but
i think i will keep my sticks. :D

Originally posted by Weasel
The only advantage I can see right now is you can angle back your control arms 20 deg or so. This allows you to ram rocks to get over them ad speed. And solid axle only moves up and down, generally, so when you hit something sraight on....you get the picture. With the IFS the suspension would take all the force of a sraight on hit.

That's interesting. Sounds wierd/ neat.

It makes a world of diffrence. On our Baja car last year we had our A Arms mostly up ad down. When we would hit a 8-12" stair or rock it would be a violent hit and usually the front end would just pop straight up. Not good and very rought ride. This year we tilted them back 25 degs. It's so much better. We can take those exact same rocks and stairs at full speed and the suspension works in the direction of the force and it will just fly over the stairs. And it is ohhhhh so smoothhhhhhhhhh.

But I can't see that Randy did this on his rig which doesn't make sence to me??????????:confused:

Originally posted by Weasel
The only advantage I can see right now is you can angle back your control arms 20 deg or so. This allows you to ram rocks to get over them ad speed. And solid axle only moves up and down, generally, so when you hit something sraight on....you get the picture. With the IFS the suspension would take all the force of a sraight on hit.

When you do this don't you lose wheel travel? Maybe not enough to matter? I dunno know?

I can see the advantage though...good point :beer:

It's called evolution. Rock crawling became a big sport and everyone built for rock 'crawling'. With the time element in competion there is a need to build for speed and some leaf's coil springs and a straight axle don't cut it anymore. If they did Early Bronco's would still be winning at Baja. I personally don't like the racing in it, I prefer the finess involved. There doesn't seem to be any logical alternative to timing the events so speed rules. And when speed and rough ground are involved I think the IFS will win over the straight axle.

Originally posted by Cliffhanger


When you do this don't you lose wheel travel? Maybe not enough to matter? I dunno know?

I can see the advantage though...good point :beer:

No not really...you do loose some gorund clearance though. Our arms were designed to stop before the frame hits a few inches in advance. But the front comes really close when the arms are all the way back.

I do CV joints and half shafts all day long. It's my job.

For the light weight guys I think a fully independant suspension will work. But it would have to be custom. There is no stock IRS or IFS that I know of that will do the travel or angle you want when competing.

And the hardest part on the front is turning full lock and nailing it, or even being hard on it. We have fixed that to an extent as we have solved it for the dune buggy related problems. But whether the same fix would work for a rockcrawler, only testing would tell.

Stock joints are made in a very small working parameter. This is done for a number of reasons. I have nver been involved in the OEM side of the business, only the racing side. Its more fun.

We make the joints that are used on every dune buggy and 4wd Trophy truck. The stock joints do OK, but we modify them more to take the shock loads of racing. I have never had someone ask me to do an off-road mud/rock vehicle yet. But it would be fun to entertain.

But depending on the specs of the vehivle, the joints could be as big around as 6.5"...So it really depends on the application.

Steve

Originally posted by Kicker
. I have never had someone ask me to do an off-road mud/rock vehicle yet. But it would be fun to entertain.

But depending on the specs of the vehivle, the joints could be as big around as 6.5"...So it really depends on the application.

Steve

are you capabable of making inner cages for toyota birfields? if so i want a quote on making them from 300m and in at least 100 ea quatitys. please email me if you are intreasted.

Well this has been quite enlightening. I do not feel that the sport will revolutionalize in the next year to irs ifs, but just two years ago the closest you saw to a buggy was the sniper really so possibly in 2 years every one will have ifs irs with hummer portals.
Like desertoy said wlkers people will prob. do it. They have the $ and the know how of years of ifs racing.
I din't really think it would ever end up on trail rigs either.

As for you kicker- There is some serious money in wheeling so if you know the trade, marketing yourself might be very lucrative. Expecially if camo is involved he seems to know how to make the CASH!!

Camo-

I make cages by the hundreds for the dune buggy market. I can make you any cage. Just need the sample or drawing. Obviously in this case it would have to be a sample.

Email me at tbird1978@hotmail.com

I will need a complete joint to do it. I think my source company and last employer (GKN) makes the OEM joint, but do not know for sure. Birfield is a location for a GKN company in Italy. It's easy and quicker just to get a joint from you.

Send a joint to the following:

Atten: Steve Davis
3526 Barberry Circle
Wixom MI, 48393

You can also call me if you would like. Email me and I will give you my phone number. We can talk about other parts you might need. I can make nearly anything you want.

I will help you out. I was curious about this market, but figured people would just replace with a "normal" axle for the outer like most 4x4's have. Most of the cages I make now are 4340, but I have done 300M. 4340 works for 95% of my apps. So it should just be an increase in material cost over what I do now.

Steve

Originally posted by Kicker


I will help you out. I was curious about this market, but figured people would just replace with a "normal" axle for the outer like most 4x4's have. Most of the cages I make now are 4340, but I have done 300M. 4340 works for 95% of my apps. So it should just be an increase in material cost over what I do now.

Steve

What is the largets CV you could build that would fit inside a 60 C?

I am sorry, I have no idea what a a 60 C is...You would just have to give me a rough idea of the space available. But even then, I would need to know what abuse the joint is gonna go through so that I can see whther it will even take it, regardless of size.

After a certain size of joint, the joint sget to be pretty expensize and heavy as they were designed for industrial purposes. I have joints small enough for a Polaris four wheeler to big enough for a yacht.

Just email me and then I will give you my number and we can talk about it if you would like.