Almost at the conclusion of Saturday´s run, we went to explore an unfamiliar part of the trail. We found an enormous bog hole, full of mud and water. After testing the depth with a stick, I decided to go first and try my luck at getting across. I didn´t quite make it, stopping close to the other side. I left the motor running, with the exhaust bubbling below the waterline. Everything seemed OK as the other guys pulled out my winch cable to strap it to a convinient tree. After rigging the cable, I accelerated the motor to help the winch and the fawking idiot light for the oil pressure came on, almost immediately accompanied by loud, very unpleasent noises from the engine compartment. I shut off the motor and lifted the hood to check things out. I found the dipstick was slightly lifted from the tube and when I pulled it out, found a lot of fawking water!! WTF!!!...:confused:

While the water was deep enough to come in thru the door jambs (I was running doorless), it was not even close to being enough to reach the upper part of the motor. The lowr part of the fan was in the shite, but stopped due to the clutch, so it didn´t throw that much water around. And I have a snorkel that goes up the the top of the windshield. The air filter was a just a little damp and dirty, but it had been raining all day, so that should not be a suprise...

After pulling the truck out of the hole, I drained the oil. Out came around 05 litres of fluid, so that would mean around 01 litre of water. After putting in new oil and rinsing out the oil filter with diesel, I started the motor only to hear more sickening sounds. I got home hooked to the unlucky end of a tow strap...:p

OK, so what gives?!?!?:confused:

The rad continued full, so the water didn´t come from there. I had checked the oil that morning before the run and it was perfect. I never had and continue not to have any external water or oil leaks.

Any ideas?!?!?

In any event, I know that I´ll have to open it up... Looks like the time has come for the V6 swap..............

TIA

What probably happened is the water got in through the crankshaft front seal. The seal is made to kep oil in, not water out. With the engine running, the the balancer acts like a screw and draws the water into the engine. I have seen this happen many, many times on both rigs & heavy equip.

Will there be any tell-tale signs to see if, in fact, the water did come in thru the front seal??

What could be done to eliminate this possibility in the future?? Maybe a double lipped seal or sumpin´ like that?? Deep mud holes are a fact of life here...

Thanks for the tip. Any other ideas??

You may not find any signs of where the water came from, unless a piece of debris got caught in the seal.
Double lip seals will work better, but you will still get some wazter in the engine. The only way that I have found to eliminate the water intrusion, is to have positive cxranmkcase pressure when going through the water. You generally only need about 1 lb of positive pressure, but then you can run the risk of blowing seals. If you do go with positive crankcase pressure, then be sure to release the pressure after the water crossings so you don't stress the seals unneccesarily (sp?).

Thanks.

Is the pressure inside the crankcase usually negative?? Approximately how much "vacuum" are we talking??

TIAA

I would guess your intake had a leak down at the water level some where, and it slowly drew water into it while it was idling there, and when you revved it, it sucked it right on in.

Just a guess, though.

Originally posted by 82FB
I would guess your intake had a leak down at the water level some where, and it slowly drew water into it while it was idling there, and when you revved it, it sucked it right on in.

Just a guess, though.


That would seem the logical guess, except that the entire intake circuit never went below the water line...

:confused:

You could change to a water based lube, maybe llike some KY or something :flipoff2: :rolleyes: :D

Originally posted by 82FB
I would guess your intake had a leak down at the water level some where, and it slowly drew water into it while it was idling there, and when you revved it, it sucked it right on in.

Just a guess, though.

There would be steam coing out of the tail pipe if it was sucked in!

Originally posted by Old Scout


There would be steam coing out of the tail pipe if it was sucked in!

No steam from tail pipe...

When it hits a body of cool water a hot oil pan can contract, opening up gasket seal areas.
But just this doesn't give much opportunity for a leak ...
Add the sudden cooling of the internal crankcase atmosphere and the water is actually sucked inside the submurged pan.
That is why there was so much water in there without the time or gap you would assume it would take for this to happen.

Originally posted by Jaffer
When it hits a body of cool water a hot oil pan can contract, opening up gasket seal areas.
But just this doesn't give much opportunity for a leak ...
Add the sudden cooling of the internal crankcase atmosphere and the water is actually sucked inside the submurged pan.
That is why there was so much water in there without the time or gap you would assume it would take for this to happen.

Sudden cooling??? bawhahaaa

There is hot oil on the other side of the pan and a constant supply of heat from the running engine. All engines have some loss of combustion pressure pass the rings and this pressure will easily overcome any cooling of oil pan/oil!

Originally posted by Old Scout

Sudden cooling??? bawhahaaa


Mine's as good or better explaination as any posted above.
Heat a pan to 200*+ then throw some cold water on it and watch what happens.
And I will bet when a hot engine stalls in deep water that positive crankcase pressure will suddenly go to negative.
Those are just plain and simple "Mr. Wizard" physics.

But like yer sig sez ... and call it BS if you want to ...

Originally posted by Jaffer


Mine's as good or better explaination as any posted above.
Heat a pan to 200*+ then throw some cold water on it and watch what happens.
And I will bet when a hot engine stalls in deep water that positive crankcase pressure will suddenly go to negative.
Those are just plain and simple "Mr. Wizard" physics.

But like yer sig sez ... and call it BS if you want to ...

The engine didn't stall or stop running! The oil just doesn't sit there it's pumped to the hot engine and returns hot to the oil pan. Did you see were this happened? I don't think it was too cold in Brasil!


Originally posted by Mo
We should flame stupidity, not (necessarily) newbies.

There are plenty of knowledgeable people who sign up daily. :cool:
There are also plenty of idiots who sign up daily. :(

My bud got water in a FREASH engine. First trail ride infact. It was a Ford 351W I think it is (I'm a Chevy guy so not up on ford much). Luckily the Oil pump locked and caused the roll pin on the distributor drive gear to shear and killed the ignition.
I helped him pull the pan. We found that the water got in through the rubber seal on the pan where it goes under the crank. For wat ever reason it did not seal. No oil was comming out and like I said it was the first trail ride so maybe 50-60 miles on the engine. He got very lucky and no major damage other than oil pump and distributor.
Yes if your running a PVC then yes there will be a slight vacume on the crank case. There has to be to suck out the fumes and blow by.

Originally posted by Grim Reaper

Yes if your running a PVC then yes there will be a slight vacume on the crank case. There has to be to suck out the fumes and blow by.

PVC??? :flipoff2:
PCV system is not working at idle. Most PCV vavles open @10"

Does the sammi run a mechanical fuel pump?

I'm a cruiser guy, so this might not apply; but on the F series toyota engines the fuel pump sits fairly low and there is a vent hole on the underside of the fuel pump to allow the diapragm to move freely. This vent creates a free path to the crankcase. If this vent is not extended with a breather tube, it will suck water directly into the oil pan as the engine idles with the pump submerged. I've seen this happen several times.
Just one more thing to consider.

I did the exact thing on a week-old 350 SBC. Did it 4 years ago, 4th of July weekend. Ran it yet again this past weekend, no problems, tho the foot massage from the crank is interesting. I run 3 quarts SAE-50 and 3 quarts motor syrup to get ANY oil pressure when idling and warm. Cold at startup is like 50 psi tho.

It came in thru the harmonic seal. I had the top of the motor so tightly sealed up that the only place for anything to enter was the weakest seal, namely the harmonic seal. All my breathers were tight, not open into a glove-box or anything else. Now, all breathers are open to provide an air-equalization source. Not a problem since, and I was 38" deep in water more than once this past weekend.

http://www.mntoyx4.com/trailside/2002/attica_july/ (blue/camo cruiser in the pics, including the flop shot)

Originally posted by Old Scout


PVC??? :flipoff2:
PCV system is not working at idle. Most PCV vavles open @10"
Maybe not on a scout but every other engine I have messed with there is a constant pull at idle. At Higher RPMS there LESS manifold vac than at idle. Once the butter flies are open your allowing more air into the intake, vacume drops. My Toyota, at idle pulls enough vacume that if I pull the dipstick my idle comes up. There is no PCV valve on that engine and that's how it came from the factory.
My GM's are no different. When I'm cleaning the valves with the ATF trick I use the PCV line as the place to introduce the ATF. I just stick a hose right into the bottle and let it suck it up.

Originally posted by woody
I did the exact thing on a week-old 350 SBC. Did it 4 years ago, 4th of July weekend. Ran it yet again this past weekend, no problems, tho the foot massage from the crank is interesting. I run 3 quarts SAE-50 and 3 quarts motor syrup to get ANY oil pressure when idling and warm. Cold at startup is like 50 psi tho.

It came in thru the harmonic seal. I had the top of the motor so tightly sealed up that the only place for anything to enter was the weakest seal, namely the harmonic seal. All my breathers were tight, not open into a glove-box or anything else. Now, all breathers are open to provide an air-equalization source. Not a problem since, and I was 38" deep in water more than once this past weekend.

http://www.mntoyx4.com/trailside/2002/attica_july/ (blue/camo cruiser in the pics, including the flop shot)
9 out of 10 chance that replacing the main bearings and rod bearing will get the presure back up to something reasonable. I did in the mains on one of my SBC having it Nosed over. it sucked air. Same symptoms, Cold good pressure. once the oil thinned out 3 psi at idle. Drove it for a year like that and it never rattled a lifter.

Originally posted by Grim Reaper

Maybe not on a scout but every other engine I have messed with there is a constant pull at idle. At Higher RPMS there LESS manifold vac than at idle. Once the butter flies are open your allowing more air into the intake, vacume drops. My Toyota, at idle pulls enough vacume that if I pull the dipstick my idle comes up. There is no PCV valve on that engine and that's how it came from the factory.
My GM's are no different. When I'm cleaning the valves with the ATF trick I use the PCV line as the place to introduce the ATF. I just stick a hose right into the bottle and let it suck it up. :rolleyes:

http://206.117.169.65/emission.htm

I haven't seen anyone mention the oil dipstick tube seal as a possible place for water to enter. I don't know about other makes but some of the Fords have a push-in dipstick tube which doesn't seal all too well. I'm fortunate to have a screw-in dipstick tube that goes into the oil pan, very well sealed there.

go Dustball!
the origonal post states the dipstick wasnt seated so the big mystery seems odd

I found the dipstick was slightly lifted from the tube

In the original post, I said that the dipstick was slightly lifted in the tube. However, the top of the tube never went below the water, so to suck in a litre of water there would seem unlikely.

BUT.............

If the push in o-ring seal around the BOTTOM of the dipstick tube was fawked, the water might have gone in there...

In any event, it´s all coming out on Saturday. I´ll post up what I find...

Ok while we're on the topic of PCV valves I'll ask a question. I get blow by from my engine at idle but it seems to go away with a little gas. PCV problem?

Originally posted by billj
BUT.............

If the push in o-ring seal around the BOTTOM of the dipstick tube was fawked, the water might have gone in there...


That's what I was talking about, the seal at the bottom wherever it goes into. Mine goes into the oil pan, others go into the timing cover or whatever.

Here's my screw-in one-
http://users.superford.org/ylobronc/engine/blockbracketholes.jpg

Originally posted by Old Scout
:rolleyes:

http://206.117.169.65/emission.htm

I have to agree with Grim Reaper on this one. The 350 in my burb pulls strong vacuum at idle at the EGR valve. I know it's coming right off the base of the carb, so it's seeing manifold vacuum, wich means as butterflies open, the vacuum drops. The PCV vavle is nothing more than a check valve that will close if the crank case starts producing more vacuum than the manifold (when the hell would THAT ever happen?).