just got done looking at the taco swap section of the site.
i was just curious what the difference was with the new taco springs as apposed to your oher setups.

"spring is a little longer than our other front springs" :flipoff2:

I'm slightly curious to know what the overall length of that spring is. Judging by the location of the spring hangar on that taco the springs are roughly the same length as my springs, (custom with stock waggy main). Maybe it's slightly longer than normal springs, which is slightly shorter than long travel springs, which are roughly the same length as the waggy springs. :rolleyes:

Since Geiger will probably be checking this soon, he should know that 100% of the taco SAS people at TTORA believe that that shackle hangar will fail. The taco frame is like .100 wall and needs to be braced and plated in a direction that does not include that funky looking thing they have going.

Originally posted by Chris Geiger

As for TORRA, what a bunch of posers! There is not a single rig on that whole site that could follow me on the trail of my choice and I have cash to back up that bet.

Wow, Chris. You are one hell of a badass now.

Haven't you come to the realization yet that Tacomas need to be in AllPros future for it to survive as a company for another 10-15years? You've burned your bridges. I was one of the last supporters of AP over at TTORA (notice it's T-T-O-R-A, not TORRA) but you've lost me now. You're just some yuppy wheeler who's completely full of himself.

Now go buy some more parts at wholesale prices and make your rig a real "taco-eater." :rainbow:

EDIT: Also, please remove my rig from your customer's rigs website. After bending those springs I'm no longer running any AP products. I'd hate to associate myself with a company such as AP.

Originally posted by Chris Geiger

As for TORRA, what a bunch of posers! There is not a single rig on that whole site that could follow me on the trail of my choice and I have cash to back up that bet.
Chris you are such a silly:rainbow:. Not everyone who wheels is in it to run the hammers. And when did anyone say that we could out wheel your tube buggy. You see that someone has noticed your flaw and you change the subject to my rig is better than yours. Just remember you douche bag that there is aways some one with a "badder" rig. Also you are not very up on your customer service skills. You shouldn't bash the people/rigs that are now or soon to be in your market, its just not smart. If I talked to someone like the way you talk about tacomas and their owners my boss would toss me out on the street.

As for TORRA, what a bunch of posers! There is not a single rig on that whole site that could follow me on the trail of my choice and I have cash to back up that bet.

I might be a newbie to PBB, but I have been wheeling in NorCal for 12 years or so. Not everyone on TTORA wheels hard or wheels at all, but several of us have very capable Tacomas!

We just took a group of Tacomas through the Rubicon. Maybe you don't consider the Rubicon hardcore, but we had guys running the little sluice, soup bowl, old sluice, etc.

Why is it that AP is so anti-Tacoma? Is it because you had a little trouble figuring out Robert Canon's axle swap? He ran the Rubicon with us, after lots of fixes to your shop's work. There are guys all over the country doing axle swaps on Tacomas that actually work well, and doing them in their driveways with reasonable budgets.

Later,
....Mike



http://www.toy4x4.net/rubicon_07_02/P7160067.jpg

http://www.toy4x4.net/rubicon_07_02/P7160103.jpg

http://www.toy4x4.net/rubicon_07_02/P7150048.jpg

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
As for the shackle mount it's a three sleeve design. That is there are three seprate sleeves that will go all the way through the frame. One at the shackle, one in front and one in the rear.

As for TORRA, what a bunch of posers! There is not a single rig on that whole site that could follow me on the trail of my choice and I have cash to back up that bet.

do you always have to be such an Asshole? Bob was merely pointing out (from personal experience) that the design of the shackle hanger is not up to par.. I myself have had to redesign my shackle hangers because of the frame cracking under extreeme stress. Also for example Robert Cannon's truck (the truck that Allpro did the SAS on) had shackle hanger problems, i guess that design was just as bulletproof as this one?? And you must realize (or at least i hope your boss does) Toyota isn't making Hilux's anymore. they are producing Tacoma's and if you want to stay in business you better become wise to the fact that TTORA is one of the biggest Tacoma clubs in the U.S. and with you running your mouth off and saying that TTORA (not TORRA) is a bunch of posers is like shooting yourself in the foot. You (Chris, not allpro) have turned many of us willing tacoma owners away with your crappy attitude, Many of us will never purchase anything from Allpro just because of the way we were treated by you. and many of us have turned fellow tacoma owners away from allpro, and sent them to shops that don't have two faced-arrogent assholes working for them.

Also i would be curious to how much you guys are charging that poor guy with the black tacoma, and how long you guys are taking to complete it. As of right now there are 3 Solid axle tacoma's in Norcal that were Weekend warrior jobs. (and a few more in the works) Mine was the first, Bob's was second, and Mike's was third. We have completed the swaps for proabaly much less than what that axle is costing that guy. We have most of the problems worked out now, and can perform the entire swap in about 2 days, not two months...

Good riddance to AllPro...


EDIT: FYI My Rig is the green one in the second pic that Mike posted...

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
I think it's funny hearing that they took a vote on the poser board and are saying the design won't work. Talk about gay.

Actually we didn't take a vote, someone posted a link to your website to some of us went to take a look (Completely out of morbid curiosity) and were kinda shocked of the shackle hanger design.

I think it's funny that someone points out a design flaw and you tell them to fuckoff and start making fun of them.. :flipoff2:

he he he This is getting good!:flipoff2:

Where is the vote? If you posted some better pictures we could see what was really going on with the shackle hangers. How many axle swaps have you done on Tacomas? I have personally crawled under seven of them to check stuff out and see how different methods hold up.

If you weren't so quick to alienate tacoma owners, you could have a wealth of information at your fingertips.

Later,
....Mike

Originally posted by tacomamike
[B]



Why is it that AP is so anti-Tacoma? Is it because you had a little trouble figuring out Robert Canon's axle swap? He ran the Rubicon with us, after lots of fixes to your shop's work. There are guys all over the country doing axle swaps on Tacomas that actually work well, and doing them in their driveways with reasonable budgets.



All Pro is not anti Tacoma. All Pro sells several Tacoma products and has aditional products in development. My problem is with TTORA, not Tacoma's.

TTORA kicked me off because I refused to pay them cash under the table to stay on the their silly BBS. Did you have to pay for your membership?

Funny, we had a new customer come in our shop today to have us install a set of Rock Guards. He said he is fed up with all the anti All Pro BS over on that site and was very happy jump ship.

"Like sands through the hourglass.......so are the days of our lives!!" :D

Originally posted by Chris Geiger

All Pro is not anti Tacoma. All Pro sells several Tacoma products and has aditional products in development. My problem is with TTORA, not Tacoma's.


You sell Tacoma floor mats. That's an insult in itself. Will you be releasing a bug deflector soon? What about a bra, my paint keeps chipping.


TTORA kicked me off because I refused to pay them cash under the table to stay on the their silly BBS. Did you have to pay for your membership?

That's a pretty interesting accusation. Why not put it in perspective though? One person at TTORA wants money from a dealer who wants to post/advertise on our board. Instead of working out a deal you go on a multi-year rampage bashing TTORA members and ruining the reputation of your employer? All over something so petty?


Funny, we had a new customer come in our shop today to have us install a set of Rock Guards. He said he is fed up with all the anti All Pro BS over on that site and was very happy jump ship.
Well maybe if he was still a TTORA member he'd see this thread and take offense to it. He must be too new to know at least half the history of TTORA vs. Geiger/AP. Like I said before, I was an AP supporter until you threw out this TORRA poser BS.

TTORA kicked me off because I refused to pay them cash under the table to stay on the their silly BBS. Did you have to pay for your membership?

You don't have to pay anything to participate on the TTORA message board. You can pay for advanced features if you want though, kinda like paying for the red star here on PBB.

TTORA kicked me off because I refused to pay them cash under the table to stay on the their silly BBS. Did you have to pay for your membership?

Please give us details about this. Nobody was kicked for not contributing. Just like the PBB, you have to have a membership to have pics hosted, etc.

Anyway, I am not here to defend TTORA. I am just trying to point out that there is a huge growing market for Tacoma stuff. Stuff that All-Pro could be a part of if they weren't constantly bashing Tacomas.

Wouldn't it be easier to work with us Tacoma people in a reasonable manner instead of saying we are a bunch of posers who don't wheel our trucks?

Later,
....Mike

Originally posted by tacomamike
Where is the vote? If you posted some better pictures we could see what was really going on with the shackle hangers. How many axle swaps have you done on Tacomas? I have personally crawled under seven of them to check stuff out and see how different methods hold up.

If you weren't so quick to alienate tacoma owners, you could have a wealth of information at your fingertips.

Later,
....Mike


We are not yet finished with the shackle hangers, I really did not expect to receive such a bad responce. Maybe it was a mistake to even post "in progress" pics.

Yes we are doing things different than every other Tacoma swap, but when we are done we will end up with a truck and kit that will be able to take on trails like the Hammers. I know not every Taco owner is going to want this but the goal is to build the best Tacoma swap kit possable.

Please give us details about this. Nobody was kicked for not contributing. Just like the PBB, you have to have a membership to have pics hosted, etc.

I was kicked off. I was told that because I worked for All Pro that I had to pony up $100 a year to even have access the their BBS.

I was not given any warrning. I posted a note showing our new at the time front spacers. I was told that if I did not pay up my account would be turned off and sure enough a few weeks later it was.

Yes we are doing things different than every other Tacoma swap, but when we are done we will end up with a truck and kit that will be able to take on trails like the Hammers. I know not every Taco owner is going to want this but the goal is to build the best Tacoma swap kit possable.

This is a good thing. Just don't post messages saying we are all a bunch of posers because we didn't do our axle swaps the same way AllPro did. There are several ways to skin a cat. I thought the purpose of this message board was to spread four-wheeling tech information and get feedback on projects, spread ideas, get input, etc....

Later,
....Mike

I come here to get as much info as possible so I can buld my SFA Tacoma. Most of my time is spent on the TTORA board. I am not to mechanically inclined when it comes to vehicles, but I am slowly learning. With that said, I have some points to make.

First off, I am glad you are trying to make a SAS kit for the Tacoma. But I think there are issues there that many people (Mike, Steve, Bob, Chuck, Robert, etc) could definately help you with. Me (not being mechanically inclined) instantly asked "Is that gonna hold up?" when I saw your spring hangers. I really don't want to call it a poor design (tho personally, I think it is), but I think it can be improved. If you keep it the way the pic I saw shows, and it holds up, great, all the more power. But what happens if it doesn't hold? Just food for thought.

Second, please don't ask me to follow you down any trail. I will tell you right now you can prolly out wheel me (even without the unfair advantage of a rock buggy). Actually, i think bringing in how good you are at wheeling has no pourpose when talking about your product and is pretty :rainbow: and immature. Remember wheeling is mostly driver skill, little to do with products on the rig (with some exceptions). That means your skill in wheeling has nothing to do with your design for the Tacoma SAS kit.

Third, I would not knock you for taking your time on this kit. for a business to sell something, it has to be a quality product (well, not really, but if you want to associate yourself with it, it should be of high quality), and that usually takes time. Good luck on your research and development on this kit. Take it slow and do it right the first time.

I have been a member of TTORA for only 10 months now and I haven't seen too much negative press about All Pro. A couple people have expressed dislike with the product they bought, but that will happen with almost every product. I have also heard some good things said about All Pro products on the board.

One last thing before I go back into my corner...it has been said before, but I would just like to reiterate it. There was never a vote/poll taken about All Pro or their Tacoma SAS setup. The people that happened to express their opinion about your kit all just seemed to have the same concern, and that is the spring hangers.

I think there is a lot of valuable input that members on the TTORA board could give you for ALL aspects of the kit. What worked, what didn't. You could use this info to make your product better, or maybe it would even help spawn new ideas you could explore. At any rate, I have said my piece and I am not trying to get into a flame war. Take care and good luck with the kit.

Well spoken, Bri.

Guys I really like the photos above, these are some of the best ever rock pics I have seen with Tacoma's. Last Time I was on TTORA there was nothing like that on the board. Only talk of floor mats, stereos and such.

I would go wheeling with you guys in a minute and have a great time! I don't hate Tacoma's, my problem is with whoever runs TTORA. I am banned so I can't even look and see what's on the site anymore. There is no guest access to even view the board.

That's really too bad. Do you think there would be any way to reconcile differences and be able to access any of it? (You try to change names to get on the board?) Just a thought. I hope everything works out.

Chris.. You're right... alot of the crap you saw on that Tacoma Delphi board was all about floor mats and speakers and "How much lift do I need for 32's".. It's still the same... BUT, and this is important...

In any group of vehicle owners, you're gonna have the 95%, who are content with what the factory gave them and only want to improve things a little, and you'll have the 5%.. the ones who posted here. These guys ARE gettin it (as I see you noticed), and trying ideas no one had done previously, and have great results!

Even some of the PBB hardcore post over on JU.. think of it as the Toyota JU.

I don't own a Tacoma 4x4, it's a S-Runner (2wd mini, v-6, 5-speed fun truck), and I only briefly visit that board anymore.

Even in our NC chapter, there's probably 50 members, and around 3-5 are actually willing to do a D3 or higher trail. We've since dropped the TTORA association for that reason.

BTW, I wheeled with the TTORA prez.. he's not such a bad guy, and he admits too many people think that the crap that happen on the "Tacoma Territory Talk" BBS actually *IS* TTORA, which it's not. That's like saying that every one that posts here is a member of the Pirates of the Rubicon 4wd Club. He also got my respect for being a parapalegic(sp?) and still wheeling, even though getting in and out of a solid axle Taco on 36's is quite an effort.

Oh, without seeing all the angles for the spring hanger, I won't say much.. it just doesn't look like it has a ton of vertical stability, but I'm sure that will be worked out in testing... Nothing is perfect the first time anyway..:D

If it sounds like I'm defending the people on the Delphi board, believe me, I'm NOT. Just the few that do actually wheel and build their rigs. I'm as fed up with that board as you are.

Ok you guys, enough non-tech garbage here. Stick to the tech side of SAS'ing tacos, it's good stuff, but no more personal attacks, or TTora is gay, etc etc etc or I start laying down major smack on whoever disrespects this.

Got it? Stick to the Tech or else!!!

As a matter of fact, it would be sweet if any of you who own posts that are of the non-tech type in this thread would go back and ax them, it would be greatly appriciated

Chris Gieger,

I changed my post because I just saw steve's post and thought I really don't want to sink to that level anyways.. so here's some info for you chriss

If All Pro is going to stick with that hanger design you might want to brase the frame a little bit. A few Taco guys have torn there frames there.

you might even consider going with what Supersized did on TTORA he did a cross member right there. he's running coil overs but it would work the same..

You also might want to rethink the Toy axle We all love toys but 5000 axles and partial drive train swaps are not in the budget for most!

Ok is that better?

Originally posted by Cb77mello
Chris Gieger,

Man I hate being late to a All-Proo bashing party.. Damn!


Look.. our first official doofus... and his post is right after Steve TOLD YOU not to keep bashing...

Sheesh.... dense, dense, dense....

I for one have never seen Chris get non-diplomatic except for on this issue so I think he legitimatly feels some misjustice over the issue.

On a tech note, I would like to see some pics of the hangers ya'll are talking about. As a former tacoma owner I am always interested in stuff they are doing with them.

Originally posted by DRM


Look.. our first official doofus... and his post is right after Steve TOLD YOU not to keep bashing...

Sheesh.... dense, dense, dense....

Your right that's why I changed it! I didn't see Steve's and anyways..

Ok lets add some tech..

What front springs are you running?:flipoff2:

The hangers are here:

http://www.allprooffroad.com/pics/0633.jpg

Originally posted by TyTy
On a tech note, I would like to see some pics of the hangers ya'll are talking about. As a former tacoma owner I am always interested in stuff they are doing with them.

I don't have any pics of it with me, but i should have some at home. i'll do my best to describe it to you. Mike came up with the idea of plating the frame all the way up the inside of the rail, then plating the bottom of the rail also. now the bottom plate run's past the inside edge of the frame (since the shackles are inboarded) and Gusset's are added from the Vertical plate, to the horrizontal plate,

Here are some pics from Mike's site.
http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/PIC00463.jpg
http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/PIC00465.jpg

and here is the page of the pics of his swap.
http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/index3.htm

See, if you look at the pic Brian posted, there appears to be no bracing to help out the frame when the axles move side to side (like when simply turning the wheels on the ground). Even if the frame is sleeved there, there is so much twisting going on just pulling out of your driveway eventually the frame fatigues and begins to crack. Mine even tore the frame before I noticed any problems.

Also, if you see nearly the amount of side to side movement as I have, your running the shackle through the frame will allow the shackle to move into the frame. This probably isn't a problem as much as it is a nuissance. "Clank" everytime you turn.

As you noticed with R. Canons swap, the taco frame is very thin and it requires that special attention be paid to it.

http://microtech.com/bob/SAS/Shackle%20Hangar/DCP_4104.JPG

That was my original shackle hangar. To fix the problem we plated the top of the frame and ran a gusset from the outer most portion of the hangar to the top of the frame. Redneck engineering? Yeah, but I'm sure you see my point of spreading the load of those forces as much as possible.

Originally posted by Cb77mello


Your right that's why I changed it! I didn't see Steve's and anyways i don't want to sink to Chris G's level of ignorance.. Opps damn it I did it again..

Ok lets add some tech..

What front springs are you running?:flipoff2:

SLAP! So why did you? Keep it tech folks!

If All Pro is going to stick with that hanger design you might want to brase the frame a little bit. A few Taco guys have torn there frames there.

you might even consider going with what Supersized did on TTORA he did a cross member right there. he's running coil overs but it would work the same..

You also might want to rethink the Toy axle We all love toys but 5000 axles and partial drive train swaps are not in the budget for most!

Ok is that better? [/B]

The idea is to bolt the the brace through the frame both in front and behind the shackle. The bolts will entend through to the outside of the frame.

As for the axle choice I totally agree. I don't think many people are going to want to spend $10K + in parts to do this swap.

Clearly using a D44 front axle with diff on the left side is a far cheaper solution that allows you to retain the stock drive line. Doing the swap this way and keeping the stock trans/xfer will only run about $2000 to $3000. I have told Jon I think we should support this style of swap but that's not the direction he wants to go.

Jon's point is to really crawl rock well you need both a solid axle and low transfer case gears. Putting a dual crawler on a Tacoma is very very expensive with the current stuff Marlin sells.

*****warning*************


lets stick to tech issues and keep the board bashing off of this site.

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
Jon's point is to really crawl rock well you need both a solid axle and low transfer case gears. Putting a dual crawler on a Tacoma is very very expensive with the current stuff Marlin sells.

My entire crawler setup was $1500. Im sure that All Pro can find the 2nd Tcase cheaper than I can or for what Marlin sells them for.
So all you would need is the adapter plates. Which is about $1050. My question is... how much cheaper is it installing 2 new transfer cases instead of one, and a new transmission?

And... one question about that axle your using. Is it possible to get the axle housing with a drivers side drop and axles only! And let the customer purchase everything else. Like 3rd member, outer knuckles and spindles ect ect.

Yogi

Originally posted by Chris Geiger


>>>>The idea is to bolt the the brace through the frame both in front and behind the shackle. The bolts will entend through to the outside of the frame.<<<

Yeah I understand what your trying to do, But as other people here and on TTORA will tell you it's been tried and the frame is just to thin there and the location might require a cross brace across the frame. If he wants to keep it bolt on. he might (and may have already thought of this) do a frame sleve with that setup along with a center cross support to handle the twisting. Just a thought.

>>>As for the axle choice I totally agree. I don't think many people are going to want to spend $10K + in parts to do this swap.<<<<

What would be nice is a driver side Toyota axle, now with long fields out, didn't toyota put a driver side drop in a lancruiser?

>>>>>Clearly using a D44 front axle with diff on the left side is a far cheaper solution that allows you to retain the stock drive line. Doing the swap this way and keeping the stock trans/xfer will only run about $2000 to $3000. I have told Jon I think we should support this style of swap but that's not the direction he wants to go.<<<<

That's too bad, IMO in my humble opion the key to a new product is good reserch and design. Which would mean him hanging out on the TTORA board absorbing as much info on a SFA tacoma as possible. Maybe even asking to go on a few runs, see what were doing see what were not doing.


>>>>>Jon's point is to really crawl rock well you need both a solid axle and low transfer case gears. Putting a dual crawler on a Tacoma is very very expensive with the current stuff Marlin sells. <<<<<

I agree the curreent crawler is way to expensive, that's why I'm glad I have a auto till I can aford it! Maybe he might want to consider looking into making Tacoma crawlers for a good price! and also make them avaible to sell not just wish you had, like marlin and his 2 month wait.? just a thought!

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
The idea is to bolt the the brace through the frame both in front and behind the shackle. The bolts will entend through to the outside of the frame.

Chris can you post some more pics of the shackle hanger... maybe clear some of this up. FYI the cracks to my frame were up and down, not side to side, that would lead me to believe that there are more twisting forces going on than we origanally thought. that's why we have redesigned ours. Maybe if you could get a better pic of your setup we could more easily see how yours works.:flipoff2:

Someone asked what the spring length was on the Taco. Here it is:

This spring is a special spring made just for this application. It's about a 3" lift over a stock 85 spring but is a little longer.


Pin to front center of bushing 21.5"
Pin to rear center of bushing 26"
Total spring length center of bushing to center of bushing 47.5"

http://www.allprooffroad.com/pics/0633.jpg

Wow, that AP shackle hanger IS pretty funky, :eek: but I guess you gotta do something...


I would think it would need more vertical support (a brace going from tube to top of frame rail), than front/rear support....?

is the shackle bolt run through the frame?

if not thats gonna rip off the frame as soon as you hit a bump!:eek:

one more question about your design.

why did you weld that shackle hanger together instead of just bending it all in one piece in a machine?

seems to me it would be a lot less work and a lot more cost effective.:confused:

The frame is sleeved and the bolt goes all the way through:

http://www.allprooffroad.com/pics/0646.jpg

Originally posted by r-sparky-h
one more question about your design.

why did you weld that shackle hanger together instead of just bending it all in one piece in a machine?

seems to me it would be a lot less work and a lot more cost effective.:confused:

We don't have the equipment to bend steel that thick in house. This one is just a "one off" prototype. When it's time to build them for production it would be bent from one single length of steel.


There is a tube in the frame. The tube is made from thick wall steel. Holes are drilled all the way through the frame. The sleeve is inserted in the frame and welded on both the inside and outside of the frame. The shackle bolts goes from the outside of the frame, through the frame and through the shackle.

Saw this and thought of this thread...

Originally posted by ErikB

I would think it would need more vertical support (a brace going from tube to top of frame rail), than front/rear support....?

My experience with the taco frame makes me think the exact same thing. The front/rear brace is nearing pointless (i.e. I don't have one and I have yet to have any problems as a result). A brace to the top of the frame rail from the outter most portion of the shackle hangar is necessary to spread the load of the twisting forces that us taco owners keep describing.

since this thread has become totally FUBAR now.

why dont the taco owners show us what they got for that fawking hanger!!!

that AP looks hairy to me so lets see what you other guys are doing instead of saying how bad APs look over and over.:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

why dont the taco owners show us what they got for that fawking hanger!!!

Here's what I used to help support the hanger.

http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/PIC00465.jpg

Here's what I used to support the steering box.

http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/PIC00484.jpg

Lots of care needs to be taken with the frame, seems it's pretty easy to cause cracking, etc. from the extreme twisting forces.

I also created a new crossmember to tie the two sides of the frame together.

http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/PIC00570.jpg

Later,
....Mike

http://www.toy4x4.net

TacomaMike your parts look well made and seem to me to account for the stress that will be placed on the shackle. I also like that it's an easy weld on install and would take much less time than tubing in the frame. Your steering box mount is a solid design that also looks bullet proof. Nice work, and a truly constructive post!

Originally posted by BigBadBob
See, if you look at the pic Brian posted, there appears to be no bracing to help out the frame when the axles move side to side (like when simply turning the wheels on the ground). Even if the frame is sleeved there, there is so much twisting going on just pulling out of your driveway eventually the frame fatigues and begins to crack. Mine even tore the frame before I noticed any problems.

Also, if you see nearly the amount of side to side movement as I have, your running the shackle through the frame will allow the shackle to move into the frame. This probably isn't a problem as much as it is a nuissance. "Clank" everytime you turn.

As you noticed with R. Canons swap, the taco frame is very thin and it requires that special attention be paid to it.

http://microtech.com/bob/SAS/Shackle%20Hangar/DCP_4104.JPG

That was my original shackle hangar. To fix the problem we plated the top of the frame and ran a gusset from the outer most portion of the hangar to the top of the frame. Redneck engineering? Yeah, but I'm sure you see my point of spreading the load of those forces as much as possible.

Hey I know this is a little off subject, but I had a couple of questions for you on the SFA on my Tacoma. When you have time e-mail me back. harley75901@hotmail.com

Here is a pic. of my Tacoma. http://img1.ranchoweb.com/images/swampthang1/sam5C27sride.jpg

Interesting...


Chris - I would assume you guys used the mount you did to get the shackle pivot up higher, most likely to achieve the proper caster/pinion angle... Is this correct?

That being the case, Tacomamike's hanger - though it looks well built and like *I* would build it - would introduce both a poor pinion angle and screwey steering... unless of course a dropped front hanger is used.


Anyone care to comment?

Unless the Taco frame has more drop to it than an IFS or SA mini frame, I agree.

Originally posted by DRM
Interesting...


Chris - I would assume you guys used the mount you did to get the shackle pivot up higher, most likely to achieve the proper caster/pinion angle... Is this correct?

That being the case, Tacomamike's hanger - though it looks well built and like *I* would build it - would introduce both a poor pinion angle and screwey steering... unless of course a dropped front hanger is used.


Anyone care to comment?
Well David, that's why you spend the time to rotate the knuckles. You get a pinion pointing at the tcase up and out of the way and can set castor.

That being the case, Tacomamike's hanger - though it looks well built and like *I* would build it - would introduce both a poor pinion angle and screwey steering... unless of course a dropped front hanger is used.

Hi David. I did my shackle hangers like that for several reasons. The shape and spacing of the Tacoma frame makes it rather difficult to do a through the frame shackle. There were also a couple guys in my area who had done swaps with the shackle below the frame, and it seemed to work well for them.

Since I used a D44 axle from a spring-under Wagoneer I had to weld new spring pads on the top. I was able to set the proper caster (ended up at about 5*). As far as the pinion angle, I had the knuckles rotated about 14* to point the pinion in the general direction of the t-case.

For the front I made a dropped hanger similar to what the other NorCal guys came up with. With this setup and 44044 springs the front will be about 8"-9" over stock height. This will fit 35" tires without having to start in on the fender chopping.

http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/PIC00589.jpg

Later,
....Mike

http://www.toy4x4.net

Originally posted by Bones

Well David, that's why you spend the time to rotate the knuckles. You get a pinion pointing at the tcase up and out of the way and can set castor.

So which method requires rotation of the knuckles to compensate - All Pro's or the other method?


Seems to me that if the method Tacomamike posted requires cutting the housing, the comments made earlier about All pro being more expensive are out of line in that aspect...


IMHO - seems like the mounting location of All Pro's hanger, combined with the hanger design of Tacomamike's would be the ideal compromise...

DRM i think you have hit the nail on the head here!(thinking to myself...why am i getting in to this) I agree with you on this because of the fact that i have a verry simular set up.How ever mine is totaly inboarded .Bringing the shackle up in the frame about as far as C.G.s (using a simular front hanger),and i feel that my spring angle is a little excesive(but not to bad at all,not to bad to be a DD)And yes i to Had the knuckles rotated,Costing me $.There is a happy medium and i feel chris is verry close to that .Just needs a little reinforcement here and there. Any ways i am glad to see that the tacoma has finaly made it to a real tech thred....Well better than befor........Ya no pics frome me spent all my mula,cant aford D-cam yet:D

But why not rotate the knuckles anyway :confused: Most run a 1.5-2" drop hanger and I personally used a 1.5" longer shackle. Mine drives great with no stabilizer and zero vibes, since it was setup right. I set mine for 6* caster. How is rotating the knuckles expensive? Just some time and some grinding.

Originally posted by Bones
But why not rotate the knuckles anyway :confused: Most run a 1.5-2" drop hanger and I personally used a 1.5" longer shackle. Mine drives great with no stabilizer and zero vibes, since it was setup right. I set mine for 6* caster. How is rotating the knuckles expensive? Just some time and some grinding.

Because rotating the knuckles costs money for most people... and I thought part of the gripe with All Pro's kit was $$$ :confused:

Originally posted by DRM


Because rotating the knuckles costs money for most people... and I thought part of the gripe with All Pro's kit was $$$ :confused:
Costs money?? How? It's less work than chopping off the IFS.

Originally posted by Bones

Costs money?? How?

I hope you realize how silly this question is :p


I can't seem to recall the last time I saw a shop offering free knuckle cut and rotation jobs, can you? ;)

Originally posted by DRM


I hope you realize how silly this question is :p


I can't seem to recall the last time I saw a shop offering free knuckle cut and rotation jobs, can you? ;)
That's why we did it in the garage with a grinder and a BFH...works wonders eh?? Sheesh! I thought you were the miser around here not me :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Bones

That's why we did it in the garage with a grinder and a BFH...works wonders eh?? Sheesh! I thought you were the miser around here not me :flipoff2:

I will try to break this down real slow for you, ok :p



If a person is having to pay All Pro or someone else for a "kit" to do a SAS on their tTacoma, I am willing to guess they do NOT have the experience/skills/tools to cut and rotate their knuckles...

Sure, *I* could do it, but then again, I would not be looking at some "kit" to do a SAS :p

i have a 2000 tacoma with 4 in lift in rear and 3 in in front with ifs sway away coil overs and a custom coil over in the rear and lock-rights in both axles .yes i bang the hellout of my front end but i enjoy every bit of it .i would love to put a SFA in the front but the army does not pay that well.
and i enjoy trying to make it up hill thought to be impossible and actually make it...there is no better high.and far as sas on a taco because them being new to the scene it is all trial and error .and i figure i would sit back and save my pennies until they figure what works best and spend my money wisely.and with the trails getting more and more intense ,what used to work 10 years ago really don't apply anymore.remember when 31 in tires where big?
i wheel up and down Arizona, NM ,and texas and take notes till i see the perfect set up.till then AP keep up the good work and i love watching your trucks at the championships and good luck this year.

Sure, *I* could do it, but then again, I would not be looking at some "kit" to do a SAS

I can't imagine an axle swap 'kit' that would not involve a certain amount of grinding and welding to get installed. :)

Later,
....Mike

http://www.toy4x4.net

...but I'd like to address AllPro's apparent business model concerning the Tacoma, specifically in comparison to Marlin Crawler.

There are numerous instances of Jon and, especially, Chris calling the Tacoma car-like and weak. In this very thread, recent back-pedaling not withstanding, Chris has called Taco owners posers and claimed his highly refined tube-on-frame rock buggy could out-wheel their Tacomas (let's hope so!).

Marlin, on the other hand, quietly gauged interest in crawlers for Tacomas and, when he felt that the market was there, developed a cost effective solution for compound reduction in an otherwise stock Tacoma drive train. (On the recent Rubicon run a Marlin Crawler equipped Taco with a mild lift and otherwise stock drivetrain/suspension made it through with only minimal rock rash and a broken front axle, which was quickly replaced with a trail spare.)

When Marlin heard that Tacos running his product would be on the 'Con he made the effort to be there, even though it was a mid-week run. Marlin seemed genuinely interested in the various Tacomas present and the mods that had been made to make them more trail worthy. Needless to say, he didn't proclaim that Taco owners are all posers or that he could out wheel them in his triple cased, hybrid-axled truck.

I know which approach -I- think will engender more business and product loyalty. Maybe Chris knows something about expanding AllPro's market that I don't, though... In any case, I haven't noticed anyone who's been paying attention to what the NorCal, AZ, and other Taco owners around the country have been doing (yes, typically through the TTORA board) who has gotten all giddy because AllPro has finally deigned to do another Taco swap. Complete, I might add, with questionable shackle hangers, an issue already elegantly resolved and trail tested by Taco owners Chris referred to as posers...

Originally posted by DRM


Because rotating the knuckles costs money for most people... and I thought part of the gripe with All Pro's kit was $$$ :confused:

Well... if using a Dana 44... anybody who can use a grinder and weld can rotate knuckles. I have done several of them and it only takes a couple hours.

And for all the Tacoma owners who are using the waggy axles... we all had to weld on new spring pads anyway, so it did not matter what angle the springs were at... because we were able to set the caster when we welded on the spring pads. The only difference between our swaps... is some people rotated their knuckles... and some did not. I personally rolled mine up 9*. Since I am running a crawler I did not need the 14* that Mike used. I like having my pinion up and out of the dirt.

Yogi

Originally posted by gnob
since this thread has become totally FUBAR now.

why dont the taco owners show us what they got for that fawking hanger!!!

that AP looks hairy to me so lets see what you other guys are doing instead of saying how bad APs look over and over


Can you say STOUT!!

http://www.members.cox.net/fourbychef/SAS/shacklehanger1.jpg

K-ton

Originally posted by DRM
Interesting...


Chris - I would assume you guys used the mount you did to get the shackle pivot up higher, most likely to achieve the proper caster/pinion angle... Is this correct?



Jon has allways felt that placing the shackles under the frame rotates the axle too far. So this swap was designed to place the axle in the frame similar to how it would fit into an 85 pickup.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tacomamike
[B]

http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/PIC00465.jpg

+

http://www.allprooffroad.com/0516.jpg


Why not try and use a plate like tacomamike posted with one of those fancy Johnny-Joint shackle monuts welded to it? If it was pushed in as far as the All-Pro one (inside the frame rail) it could even be recessed up an inch or two and still probably be plenty strong......just a thought.

Originally posted by skank da sock puppet
...but I'd like to address AllPro's apparent business model concerning the Tacoma, specifically in comparison to Marlin Crawler.

There are numerous instances of Jon and, especially, Chris calling the Tacoma car-like and weak. In this very thread, recent back-pedaling not withstanding, Chris has called Taco owners posers and claimed his highly refined tube-on-frame rock buggy could out-wheel their Tacomas (let's hope so!).

Marlin, on the other hand, quietly gauged interest in crawlers for Tacomas and, when he felt that the market was there, developed a cost effective solution for compound reduction in an otherwise stock Tacoma drive train. (On the recent Rubicon run a Marlin Crawler equipped Taco with a mild lift and otherwise stock drivetrain/suspension made it through with only minimal rock rash and a broken front axle, which was quickly replaced with a trail spare.)

When Marlin heard that Tacos running his product would be on the 'Con he made the effort to be there, even though it was a mid-week run. Marlin seemed genuinely interested in the various Tacomas present and the mods that had been made to make them more trail worthy. Needless to say, he didn't proclaim that Taco owners are all posers or that he could out wheel them in his triple cased, hybrid-axled truck.

I know which approach -I- think will engender more business and product loyalty. Maybe Chris knows something about expanding AllPro's market that I don't, though... In any case, I haven't noticed anyone who's been paying attention to what the NorCal, AZ, and other Taco owners around the country have been doing (yes, typically through the TTORA board) who has gotten all giddy because AllPro has finally deigned to do another Taco swap. Complete, I might add, with questionable shackle hangers, an issue already elegantly resolved and trail tested by Taco owners Chris referred to as posers...

Yes there are huge differences in the business model of Marlin and All Pro. The key difference is product delivery. If you call Marlin he will give you the history of every part of your Toyota and the life history of the guy back in Japan that built it. I have never met anyone that knows as much about toys than Marlin. In my truck I am proud to run Marlin Gears, Marlin Dual Transfer case and a Marlin rebuilt tranny. When talking to marlin he can complely block out everything else. When I am on the phone I am thinking about the other people that I promised I would get parts out to and I try to get off the phone to get those orders shipped out asap. It's nice that Marlin came out for your Rubicon event, but Marlin is not the only one going to such events. All Pro gets out to events just like yours all over the west ever month. There are so many events we simply can't get to all of them. Personally I would love nothing better than to run the con with a nice group of trucks but if I did, no one would be taking orders and shipping products back at the shop. Jon attends day trips once in a while but we generally go on the weekends. This weekend is a example of us hitting the trails and enjoying the rocks with some of our customers and friends.

As for the Tacoma in it's stock form I feel it's a warmed over 4wd Camery. It's designed around the dealer test drive. It's designed with such soft suspension that the wife says hey this drive like a car lets buy it. So your take it hame and load up a few 2X4 in the bed and what happens? Broken rear leaf springs. I get calls every week from people looking for stock replacment springs because theirs broke and Toytoa want's $600 each or what ever to replace them. The front end also has some serious problems in it's rack and pinion steering, breaking and falling off. Increase the tire size and then use the truck off road and the steering rack fails.

Originally posted by Dingo
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tacomamike
[B]

http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/PIC00465.jpg

+

http://www.allprooffroad.com/0516.jpg


Why not try and use a plate like tacomamike posted with one of those fancy Johnny-Joint shackle monuts welded to it? If it was pushed in as far as the All-Pro one (inside the frame rail) it could even be recessed up an inch or two and still probably be plenty strong......just a thought.

Yes I think that would work fine, but Jon prefers to keep the shackles up higher in the frame.

Originally posted by Chris Geiger


Yes there are huge differences in the business model of Marlin and All Pro. The key difference is product delivery.

Marlin has his issues, but my point was that he doesn't go out of his way to irk potential customers by telling them at every opportunity that their trucks are unworthy.

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
As for the Tacoma in it's stock form I feel it's a warmed over 4wd Camery. (Blah blah blah...)
Your points are well taken as evidenced by the growing number of people performing SASs on Tacomas who are addressing those issues in their build-ups. Yes, the Tacoma has some weak areas, but when you compare the Taco SAS with either an earlier generation SAS or the typical mods to a Toy solid axle truck it's no big deal. Either of the earlier trucks will get new (lifted and probably longer) rear springs. Same with the Taco. To put crossover steering on a solid axle truck requires an IFS box to be swapped in. Same with the Taco. Most people go with the wider IFS rear axle on the solid axle trucks, not necessary on Taco with the even wider rear axle.

Granted, the Taco needs -both- the IFS box and solid axle while on the earlier trucks it's typically either/or, and there are minor issues with the frame width/tire clearance at the back of the front fender-well and the issues with the front shackle hangers. The bright side is that the Tacomas have those kick ass DOHC engines, wider rear axles mentioned earlier and, often, electric lockers. For those of us still committed to driving our rigs to the trail head, that Camry-like interior comfort and space isn't bad either! ;-P

I guess the part I don't understand is your apparent compulsive need to harp on Tacoma weak points while not showing a concomitant compulsion to incessantly point out the under powered motors, weak Birfields, funky stock steering, and short unflexing rear springs that need to be replaced on the earlier rigs. I find this especially hard to fathom since you would ostensibly like to sell stuff to Tacoma owners. From what I can tell, the "Your truck sucks. Buy our stuff! Have I mentioned your truck sucks?" approach isn't exactly winning over the people who actually wheel their Tacomas and would feasibly buy AllPro products.

Freakin awsome post!

You da man! LOL

Well... Off to work on my Camry...I mean Tacoma.

Yogi

http://www.azttora.com/firehole3.JPG
http://www.azttora.com/rockerpannel9.JPG
http://www.azttora.com/ronnflop1.jpg


Originally posted by skank da sock puppet

Marlin has his issues, but my point was that he doesn't go out of his way to irk potential customers by telling them at every opportunity that their trucks are unworthy.


Your points are well taken as evidenced by the growing number of people performing SASs on Tacomas who are addressing those issues in their build-ups. Yes, the Tacoma has some weak areas, but when you compare the Taco SAS with either an earlier generation SAS or the typical mods to a Toy solid axle truck it's no big deal. Either of the earlier trucks will get new (lifted and probably longer) rear springs. Same with the Taco. To put crossover steering on a solid axle truck requires an IFS box to be swapped in. Same with the Taco. Most people go with the wider IFS rear axle on the solid axle trucks, not necessary on Taco with the even wider rear axle.

Granted, the Taco needs -both- the IFS box and solid axle while on the earlier trucks it's typically either/or, and there are minor issues with the frame width/tire clearance at the back of the front fender-well and the issues with the front shackle hangers. The bright side is that the Tacomas have those kick ass DOHC engines, wider rear axles mentioned earlier and, often, electric lockers. For those of us still committed to driving our rigs to the trail head, that Camry-like interior comfort and space isn't bad either! ;-P

I guess the part I don't understand is your apparent compulsive need to harp on Tacoma weak points while not showing a concomitant compulsion to incessantly point out the under powered motors, weak Birfields, funky stock steering, and short unflexing rear springs that need to be replaced on the earlier rigs. I find this especially hard to fathom since you would ostensibly like to sell stuff to Tacoma owners. From what I can tell, the "Your truck sucks. Buy our stuff! Have I mentioned your truck sucks?" approach isn't exactly winning over the people who actually wheel their Tacomas and would feasibly buy AllPro products.

Just got off the phone with a Tacoma owner as I was reading this post. He says he wants to stick with the 31" tires and stock suspension but wants to use it for "hard core rock crawling". That was his exact words. He said he did not want to go through the hassle of doing a solid axle swap. He said Toyota makes good trucks right so it should take it right he asks. So his question to me is how to go about "setting up" his truck for just a few hundred dollars so he can go rock crawling?

Yes sir, go have a good time.

Originally posted by skank da sock puppet

Marlin has his issues, but my point was that he doesn't go out of his way to irk potential customers by telling them at every opportunity that their trucks are unworthy.


Your points are well taken as evidenced by the growing number of people performing SASs on Tacomas who are addressing those issues in their build-ups. Yes, the Tacoma has some weak areas, but when you compare the Taco SAS with either an earlier generation SAS or the typical mods to a Toy solid axle truck it's no big deal. Either of the earlier trucks will get new (lifted and probably longer) rear springs. Same with the Taco. To put crossover steering on a solid axle truck requires an IFS box to be swapped in. Same with the Taco. Most people go with the wider IFS rear axle on the solid axle trucks, not necessary on Taco with the even wider rear axle.

Granted, the Taco needs -both- the IFS box and solid axle while on the earlier trucks it's typically either/or, and there are minor issues with the frame width/tire clearance at the back of the front fender-well and the issues with the front shackle hangers. The bright side is that the Tacomas have those kick ass DOHC engines, wider rear axles mentioned earlier and, often, electric lockers. For those of us still committed to driving our rigs to the trail head, that Camry-like interior comfort and space isn't bad either! ;-P

I guess the part I don't understand is your apparent compulsive need to harp on Tacoma weak points while not showing a concomitant compulsion to incessantly point out the under powered motors, weak Birfields, funky stock steering, and short unflexing rear springs that need to be replaced on the earlier rigs. I find this especially hard to fathom since you would ostensibly like to sell stuff to Tacoma owners. From what I can tell, the "Your truck sucks. Buy our stuff! Have I mentioned your truck sucks?" approach isn't exactly winning over the people who actually wheel their Tacomas and would feasibly buy AllPro products.

Woww! Awesome post! You hit the nail right on the head..

I never understood his thinking.. Call me crazy but I still don't see how older toys are better? You still got to swap out most the crap.. Take Chris buggy for example. Differnt axles differnt motor differnt steering. But yet it's still better?

I'm glad Toyota makes a Camrey like interior it makes the drive home so much more enjoyable!

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
Just got off the phone with a Tacoma owner as I was reading this post. He says he wants to stick with the 31" tires and stock suspension but wants to use it for "hard core rock crawling".

I don't doubt it, but my guess is that he was a complete idiot -before- he owned a Tacoma... As much as you dislike Tacomas you can't blame them for congenital stupidity!:p

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
So his question to me is how to go about "setting up" his truck for just a few hundred dollars so he can go rock crawling?

Yes sir, go have a good time.

And then you hung up on him? Or did you actually attempt to help a Tacoma owner. Obviously his definition of hardcore is different than ours. Perhaps if you helped him into the world of rockcrawling he would forever be an AllPro customer.

Here's my camry:
http://209.209.44.65/albums/rubicon_takeover_2002/ais.jpg

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigBadBob
[B]

And then you hung up on him? Or did you actually attempt to help a Tacoma owner. Obviously his definition of hardcore is different than ours. Perhaps if you helped him into the world of rockcrawling he would forever be an AllPro customer.

How do you post pictures of your camrey? I want to show off my Camrey..

http://http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/at.asp?webtag=tacomaterritory&at=%2Ftacomaterritory%

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigBadBob
[B]



How do you post pictures of your camrey? I want to show off my Camrey..




http://www.ttora-socal.com/~tmdavid/Runs/Calico03162002/images/P0004445_JPG.jpg[IMG][IMG]http:////www.ttora-

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cb77mello
[B]

I never understood his thinking.. Call me crazy but I still don't see how older toys are better? You still got to swap out most the crap.. Take Chris buggy for example. Differnt axles differnt motor differnt steering. But yet it's still better?

[QUOTE]

Yes but my starting rig only cost $1000, not $10K or $15k. You can easily built a top of the line 85 pickup and spend less than the cost of a used Taco.

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cb77mello
[B]

I never understood his thinking.. Call me crazy but I still don't see how older toys are better? You still got to swap out most the crap.. Take Chris buggy for example. Differnt axles differnt motor differnt steering. But yet it's still better?

[QUOTE]

Yes but my starting rig only cost $1000, not $10K or $15k. You can easily built a top of the line 85 pickup and spend less than the cost of a used Taco.

I was hoping you would say that..lol.. But what if you add up all that you put into your Truck. Plus your tow rig?

Tow rig easly 15,000 more if new.

Your rock rig? 5000-10,000?

Not trying to justfi either way just trying to show there's not much money saved!

I some day want both! I want a buggy for big weekends and my truck for other weekends. But for now I need a truck that can do both.

Originally posted by Cb77mello
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigBadBob
[B]

And then you hung up on him? Or did you actually attempt to help a Tacoma owner. Obviously his definition of hardcore is different than ours. Perhaps if you helped him into the world of rockcrawling he would forever be an AllPro customer.




What do you mean help him? Other than a mild lift, rock sliders and a winch (we talked about each of these) there is not much help I can give such a guy given his stated limits of very little money and 31" tires. My recommendation was that he start out on some mild trails and build up his driving skill before he hits the hard stuff.
I just hope he finds his limits before he kills the poor truck.

It isn't any vendors responsibility to help anyone into the sport of rock crawling. I can see it now, the next post is from that guy and how pissed he is that so and so talked him into spending more than his budget and don't buy anymore products from them because they just want to sell you stuff you don't need.

I don't hear anyone complaining about the fact that they don't sell Chevy, Dodge or Ford products or that some vendors "specialize" in early broncos and do not sell any products for any of versions of the Bronco. And yes some of them will tell they can't help you because the EB's were the only REAL Broncos and You don't own one.


And the people that want to analyze their business model who are you, Martha Stewart with inside information. Maybe they do only look to the Tacoma products as a very small portion of their expected business. And I'll bet it does only account for about 2 - 4% of the total sales. So what, it's their business not yours.

I'd very interested in a thread where everyone who has done a SAS on a Tacoma would post what they did. Can we start one and close this argument?

Right on the button. Tacoma sales are only about 2% of our sales. Jeeps products are about 1%. The other 97% is older Toys.

Hmmm..... could that 2% derive from the fact that you hardly sell any Tacoma products. Most of your products are up to 95 only. So of course sales are going to be low. Im sure if you offered up alot of Tacoma products... your Tacoma sales would increase!

But what would I know... Im a Camry owner... I mean Tacoma owner!

Yogi

http://www.azttora.com/rockerpannel1.JPG

SHHHHHHHHHHHH Quite yogi don't give away any secrets..

Yeah Yogi what would you know.. It's not like you built your solid axle in your drive way? It'snot like you have done 4-5 SAS on your own..

This argument is going no where. Chris is never going to admit he's wrong, and were never going to excpet his opion.. He's got his built rig we got ours, Now lets stop arguing and do some wheelin!

Oh yeah and just remember:

Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark exactly as he was instructed.
A large group of degreed professionals built the Titanic

Originally posted by Cb77mello


I was hoping you would say that..lol.. But what if you add up all that you put into your Truck. Plus your tow rig?

Tow rig easly 15,000 more if new.

Your rock rig? 5000-10,000?

Not trying to justfi either way just trying to show there's not much money saved!

I some day want both! I want a buggy for big weekends and my truck for other weekends. But for now I need a truck that can do both.

Before Randy Stockberger rolled my truck it was my daily driver. After the roll I picked up a 96 Dodge ram as tow rig and daily driver ($9000) and went to work rebuilding the rock truck. I have a total of $15K into my truck now.

I also picked up an old Motorhome for $4500. This works great for overnight trips. Figure a trailer in there at about $1000.

The above is just how I went about it.

Now if your looking to get into rock crawling and need a daily driver you can build a older Pickup for a lot less than starting with an expensive truck and building it up from there. Below is just a sample, there are plenty of people doing it for much less. If the rubicon is all your going to do, you can build a rig for far far less than this list.

Start with a good used 85 Pickup with good motor/drive line, say $3500.

$4000 suspension, nerfs, drive shafts, dual cases,crossmember
$2000 gears, lockers
$500 Bob the bed or build a flat bed
$1800 tires and wheels.
$1000 assorted parts (longfields and such)

Comes to about $12,800, at this gives you a good working truck that will take on most trails.

Originally posted by Chris Geiger


Before Randy Stockberger rolled my truck it was my daily driver. After the roll I picked up a 96 Dodge ram as tow rig and daily driver ($9000) and went to work rebuilding the rock truck. I have a total of $15K into my truck now.

I also picked up an old Motorhome for $4500. This works great for overnight trips. Figure a trailer in there at about $1000.

The above is just how I went about it.

Now if your looking to get into rock crawling and need a daily driver you can build a older Pickup for a lot less than starting with an expensive truck and building it up from there. Below is just a sample, there are plenty of people doing it for much less. If the rubicon is all your going to do, you can build a rig for far far less than this list.

Start with a good used 85 Pickup with good motor/drive line, say $3500.

$4000 suspension, nerfs, drive shafts, dual cases,crossmember
$2000 gears, lockers
$500 Bob the bed or build a flat bed
$1800 tires and wheels.
$1000 assorted parts (longfields and such)

Comes to about $12,800, at this gives you a good working truck that will take on most trails.

I think your prices are a little far fetched. I got my Tacoma for $7,000. I did a lot of shit to it, But when it came down to doing my SAS, I only droped $1800 cach down to get all the parts needed to get my rig on the road again. I am looking at $8,800 on a 98 SFA Tacoma, vs. 12,800 on a 85 Toyota Truck. One thing I did have was my wheels, tires and "Rear Gears, and a locker" every thing else I bought. So you can say $1,500 more for that stuff. But I am still $10,300 and have a truck that is 13 years newer, a good daily driver, and a damn good off-road rig. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that my Tacoma is the best thing out there, but I will sure follow any one on a trail, and not scared to try a new one.

Chris has a real point here. I wish I would have read his last post before buying my Taco last December:( . I would have kept my old car and bought a ~85 pickup. I would have had plenty of $$ left over to build with. Now I have a real nice truck/Camry to roll around town in but I can't go hardcore without spending another $10k on SAS, lockers, tires, etc. Of course, I could have done more research before buying but who know I'd be so into wheeling:D Oh well, it will be paid off someday...

Originally posted by more_toys
Chris has a real point here. I wish I would have read his last post before buying my Taco last December:( . I would have kept my old car and bought a ~85 pickup. I would have had plenty of $$ left over to build with. Now I have a real nice truck/Camry to roll around town in but I can't go hardcore without spending another $10k on SAS, lockers, tires, etc. Of course, I could have done more research before buying but who know I'd be so into wheeling:D Oh well, it will be paid off someday...

What did you pay for your 97 Tacoma?? did you miss my post. I only have $10,300 in my 98 tacoma, and is very capable of going anywhere I would want to go, and still under the $12,800 he has in his 85.

I paid $12800 for the Taco and added another $1200 to the financing for an ARB locker. I've done Miller's Jeep trail and the John Bull trail in Big bear without too much trouble. But I'd like to make it more capable and I don't have the cash.
Where did you get yours? I've never seen one in drivable condition that cheap.

This whole thread is just one big pissing contest. Who gives a crap what year or model your truck is? Or how much it did or did not cost to build.

Pick the year and model you like best for whatever reason and do what you want with it. Do it for yourself, not to try and outdo the other guy.

I'd like to see a lot less of the bashing that's going on here and how 'bout we see some more posts on how the Taco guys who have sas'd did it?

Originally posted by more_toys
I paid $12800 for the Taco and added another $1200 to the financing for an ARB locker. I've done Miller's Jeep trail and the John Bull trail in Big bear without too much trouble. But I'd like to make it more capable and I don't have the cash.
Where did you get yours? I've never seen one in drivable condition that cheap.

I got it in Dallas Tx. The interior was shitty, and needed a paint job. But was running and driving great. What year did you buy your tacoma. I got mine when it was 2 years old. Even watch ebay, reg. cabs go cheap all day. ARB air locker I am sure is real nice, but for the money you spent on that locker alone, you could have got 2 power traxx lockers and installed for $1200. Then you would have been locked front and rear, and a little more capable and a lot cheaper. Go to the www.ttora.com message board, and with all the people doing SAS's you can get a set of gears pretty cheap. I have noticed a lot of people are going from 4:56's to 4:88's.. Or a new set from 4wp is only 275, for gears with the install kit. EThats each Diff. Their are a lot of things you could have done than droping $1200 in the ARB. But Like I said I am sure it is real nice. I would like to have one too.

:crybaby: There is alot of thin skin here. You bitches need to toughen up and not be so sensitive. I know my truck is not an "IDEAL" platform for a hardcore wheeler nor do I care. I wheel what I got and have fun and don't get bent up when people tell me I shoulda got this or done that, It's just there opinion, right or wrong. If I knew I was going to get as hardcore as I got I would have done things differently as Chris is trying to suggest and get a cheaper platform. Live and learn I guess.

They're all TOYOTA's so shut up already and get off your Tacoma soap boxes! The pick- up and 4 runner guys get along:flipoff2: .

Here is a pic of my Camry :flipoff2:

http://www.mo-4xtoys.com/disney/P0000837.JPG

how do you post a pic. like that? I was going to show off my corola.. hehe

http://64.246.16.91/~admin22/attached/aqqqqqqqqqq.jpg

http://img1.ranchoweb.com/images/swampthang1/sam5C27sride.jpg

I'd like to see a lot less of the bashing that's going on here and how 'bout we see some more posts on how the Taco guys who have sas'd did it?

I posted pics of the spring hanger and shackle hangers. What else do you guys wanna see? I have lots of pics of other SA Tacomas too.

Later,
....Mike

http://www.toy4x4.net/
1998 Solid Front Axle Camry

http://www.toy4x4.net/calico_2002/DSC00192.jpg

Originally posted by tacomamike


I posted pics of the spring hanger and shackle hangers. What else do you guys wanna see? I have lots of pics of other SA Tacomas too.

Later,
....Mike

http://www.toy4x4.net/
1998 Solid Front Axle Camry

http://www.toy4x4.net/calico_2002/DSC00192.jpg

I like the rack on that camry.. Are those factory tires?? lol

Here's how we did my steering box.

http://www.toy4x4.net/bob/PIC00034.jpg

In retrospect I think I would have tried to push the box forward another inch or two (there appears to be room) and tried to at least put some angle into it as the original toys did. The reason we didn't originally is because it's kind of a PITA. Because the taco frame doesn't have the /---\ shape to it (looking from side) the frame needs to be notched to properly tilt the box forward and allow for the pitman arm to swing.

Here is my shackle hangar before we braced it due to the frame tearing/cracking.

http://microtech.com/bob/SAS/Shackle%20Hangar/DCP_4104.JPG

This design is bad. Period. The gussets need to extend to the top of the frame rail where the brake or fuel line (whichever, don't recall) is in the picture. The reason for this is the twisting forces that I've been mentioning this entire thread. Since plating the top of the frame and simpyl extending a piece of 3/8" flat bar from the edge of the shackle to the top of the frame I have had zero problems.

I do like the idea behind APs shackle through the frame. As we all know, it allows you to run a longer shackle but still achieve smaller amounts of lift. And as we all know, this is a good thing. The problem with this approach is the PITA factor of drilling through the frame as well as having less room to play with to brace against those twisting forces. If this method can be refined, or if some new way of stuffing the shackle up the inside of the frame can be achieved, this would probably be the best route.

Once you have lifted the shackle hangar, you can then run a lower profile front spring hangar.

http://www.bentup.com/Photos/hanger2.jpg

As you can see here. The hangar is dropped more than it need be in two places. First, the material used to make the cross member is very thick. Or at least, thicker than need be. Some 1" would serve better. Second, the amount of space between the cross member and the spring bolt is close to an entire inch. More than necessary.

I'm sure that serves some tech purpose and can, at the least, help someone when designing their SAS Tacoma.

You asked for some tech...
Looked under a Taco last night and have 2 SAS observations / suggestions:
1. - Rear shackel mount -IMHO that frame was not desigend to handle the torsional stress that an inboard shackle mount puts on the frame rails. No amount of bracing / sleeving will prevent eventaul problems. A better way to do this would incorperate the shackle mount into a cross member. The loading will then be in compression - the frame is designed to handle that. Besides that stock cross member looks very weak. Throught the frame is a good idea, however the Taco frame widens out too much, unlike the 86-95 frames.
2. - Axle - you should be able to take a Toyata axle, cut the ends off, flip the housing and reweld the ends. This will give you pumpkin on the LH side and the ability to use stock length axles. One step up would be to sleeve an wide the axle to match the rear. You will need longer axle shafts and tie rod, but All Pro is all over that.

:D

Originally posted by BlueCoyote3
You asked for some tech...
Looked under a Taco last night and have 2 SAS observations / suggestions:
1. - Rear shackel mount -IMHO that frame was not desigend to handle the torsional stress that an inboard shackle mount puts on the frame rails. No amount of bracing / sleeving will prevent eventaul problems. A better way to do this would incorperate the shackle mount into a cross member. The loading will then be in compression - the frame is designed to handle that. Besides that stock cross member looks very weak. Throught the frame is a good idea, however the Taco frame widens out too much, unlike the 86-95 frames.
2. - Axle - you should be able to take a Toyata axle, cut the ends off, flip the housing and reweld the ends. This will give you pumpkin on the LH side and the ability to use stock length axles. One step up would be to sleeve an wide the axle to match the rear. You will need longer axle shafts and tie rod, but All Pro is all over that.

:D

Answer to #1 I added this brace in between the framerails on my conversion to eleviate the side to side stresses on the frame. This is the stock mounting location for the old sway bar BTW

http://mo-4xtoys.com/flattaco/sas/crossmember.jpg

#2 Why would you want to go to all of that trouble with a Toy axle when you can get a D44 out of a Waggy? :confused:

Originally posted by BlueCoyote3
.
2. - Axle - you should be able to take a Toyata axle, cut the ends off, flip the housing and reweld the ends. This will give you pumpkin on the LH side and the ability to use stock length axles. One step up would be to sleeve an wide the axle to match the rear. You will need longer axle shafts and tie rod, but All Pro is all over that.

:D
You flip it upside down and the 3rd won't fit unless you rotate the front "cover" 180* as well to make the ring gear fit. All in all a dumb idea, sorry. Sounds like a lot of work and about 5" to narrow.. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by FlatBastard
#2 Why would you want to go to all of that trouble with a Toy axle when you can get a D44 out of a Waggy? :confused:

I would have to agree here...

Oh yeah...aslong as we are showing eachother our "boxes" :eek: Here is a shot of mine..... enjoy... :flipoff2: http://mo-4xtoys.com/flattaco/sas/saginaw.jpg

Anyone have pics of the shaft from the column to the box? I was lookin at my Taco and the shaft comes out of the firewall pointed straight down at the ground. Damn rack and pinion crap!

Originally posted by PIG
Anyone have pics of the shaft from the column to the box? I was lookin at my Taco and the shaft comes out of the firewall pointed straight down at the ground. Damn rack and pinion crap!
There's a joint there, just rotate it to point at the ne PS box :confused:

Originally posted by PIG
Anyone have pics of the shaft from the column to the box? I was lookin at my Taco and the shaft comes out of the firewall pointed straight down at the ground. Damn rack and pinion crap!

Everyone does something differnt. Yogi cut a hole above the og shaft and ran it threw there.

Robert Cannon went with a custom plate and bearing sleve to keep it clean.

You can do it anyway you want. The quick and dirty is notch it and move it where you want it. You still need a rag joint or a small u-joint..

I'm sure someone will post a pic soon!

Originally posted by PIG
Anyone have pics of the shaft from the column to the box? I was lookin at my Taco and the shaft comes out of the firewall pointed straight down at the ground. Damn rack and pinion crap!

For mine we took that little plate that the steering shaft comes through off and traced it onto a piece of sheet metal. Then we cut out that sheet metal and tossed a hole in it that is the size of a bearing. The bearing has a 5/8" hole in it for the shaft to run through. The bearing is probably not necessary but it's there anyway. Then just stick a ujoint at the end of that and run to the box. If you do it right you can do it with one ujoint and the rag joint. Mine has two ujoints and a rag joint and my steering sucks.

Originally posted by Bones

You flip it upside down and the 3rd won't fit unless you rotate the front "cover" 180* as well to make the ring gear fit. All in all a dumb idea, sorry. Sounds like a lot of work and about 5" to narrow.. :flipoff2:

From the axle I looked at it sure looked possible. Other method would be to cut / shorten the LH side and lengthen / sleeve the RH side.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by FlatBastard
#2 Why would you want to go to all of that trouble with a Toy axle when you can get a D44 out of a Waggy?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I would have to agree here..DRM

IMHO D44 are a PITA. Every one I ever had failed - ujoints, R&P, center cracked, always leaked. Would not waste my time on one again. Others have had much better luck. The Toyota has been bullet proof so far. With Longfeilds it should be even better. But again, each person has their own opinion. My point is not flame or say which is better / or might work; it is to toss out some TECH ideas. If I were to do it my route would be to modify a Toyota axle. To those who want to use the D44, wish you better luck than I ever had.:D

Seems to me that a wagoneer axle w/after market axles and CTM joints would make a great low cost axle for this swap and have the 3rd member on the left side.

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
Seems to me that a wagoneer axle w/after market axles and CTM joints would make a great low cost axle for this swap and have the 3rd member on the left side.

You got it... I can think of atleast 6 SAS swaps on Taco`s that are using this axle....including myself. :D

Originally posted by FlatBastard


You got it... I can think of atleast 6 SAS swaps on Taco`s that are using this axle....including myself. :D

I'll be number 7 then. ;)

I haven't got the Warns and CTM's yet, but after breaking 2 shafts on the last two runs, I'm giving it some serious thought.

Anyone have pics of the shaft from the column to the box? I was lookin at my Taco and the shaft comes out of the firewall pointed straight down at the ground. Damn rack and pinion crap!

There is a CV type joint just inside the firewall like this:

http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/PIC00571.jpg

I took it apart and turned it into a single u-joint so it could point straight at the steering box instead of straight down.

http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/PIC00572.jpg

I then bolted up the steering extension that came with the 6" Trailmaster lift. Perfect fit and a straight shot from the firewall to the steering box.

http://www.toy4x4.net/sas/DSC00115.JPG

Only thing left is to make a new plate where the shaft comes through the firewall. I am currently using duct tape to keep out engine noise, been too busy wheeling to finish up the plate.

I have to give credit to Yogi for coming up with the u-joint/TM extension idea.

Later,
....Mike

http://www.toy4x4.net/

Thanks for the steering shaft info.

first of all i have put my foot in the door when it comes to tocomas, even when i don't even own one. i have worked with aj form bentup.com, which to as far as i know has done more sas tacos than anyone else. i built the spring hangers for him and help design a better shackle hanger. i hope that allpro makes a strong kit not useing 7ga steel, but more like 1/4 steel. and the shackle that allpro is using is by far the crazest one i have seen. it is not what i would do but it would ( technicly) work. when it comes to the steering box i think that FlatBastard has the ideal setup useing the scout box. i hope that chris will some day relize what an oppertunity there is in the tacoma truck line but maybe he wont :D

more pics






Cliff

first of all i have put my foot in the door when it comes to tacomas, even when i don't even own one. i have worked with aj from bentup.com, which to as far as i know has done more sas tacos than anyone else. i built the spring hangers for him and help design a better shackle hanger. i hope that allpro makes a strong kit not useing 7ga steel, but more like 1/4+ steel. and the shackle that allpro is using is by far the crazest one i have seen. it is not what i would do but it would ( technicly) work. when it comes to the steering box i think that FlatBastard has the ideal setup useing the scout box. i hope that chris will some day relize what an oppertunity there is in the tacoma truck line but maybe he wont :D




Cliff

Originally posted by e cliff
i have worked with aj from bentup.com, which to as far as i know has done more sas tacos than anyone else.


Yogi has him beat by a few now. But AJ did most of the work on my initial swap. If you built the spring hangar. Wow. It sure is burly.

Yea... your front spring hanger is like what..... 1" thick steel! LOL Total beef!

Yogi

Originally posted by BigBadBob


Yogi has him beat by a few now. But AJ did most of the work on my initial swap. If you built the spring hangar. Wow. It sure is burly.