Just have a few miscellaneous welding questions:

I am building my tire carrier and bumper now with my 110V MIG-- it's a blast! I've done a fair share of research on welding-- reading net pages, practicing on tons of scrap metal, etc. and think that the project is coming along nicely. I have depleted a small (power tank size?) bottle of CO2 already and don't want to just refill that if I have to keep refilling it constantly.

1. Do all of you buy those huge torpedo (not sure of the size) canisters of CO2? Here in KC you have to rent them for an enormous deposit and have them filled up for a pretty hefty price as well. How much are all of yuo spending on them- i.e. buying/renting/filling?

2. Do you all just weld on your rigs or do you build other stuff for around the house? I'd like to weld up little coffee tables, chairs, and stuff like that-- little projects that will keep me sane.

3. Can you convert MIG to TIG just by purchasing some Tungsten gas and using different wire? I'd like to mess around with aluminum a bit but have tried and MIG does poorly on Al (just as I've read <IMG SRC="smilies/clown.gif" border="0"> ).

4. I've been using a Dewalt 14" chopsaw to make most of my cuts on box tube and the like-- is there a more precise way of cutting and can you bevel edges easier (my angle finder on the saw only goes to 45 degrees and I've needed to make 60 degree cuts before on short pieces of metal that I can't flip around if you follow me)? Also for thick width (i.e. 3" and above) pieces of box tube the chop saw will make uneven cuts-- a few centimeters of material difference on the upper face and the lower face sometime. Is this unusual or is there an easy fix for this?

Thanks

Originally posted by wrendog:
<STRONG>1. Do all of you buy those huge torpedo (not sure of the size) canisters of CO2? Here in KC you have to rent them for an enormous deposit and have them filled up for a pretty hefty price as well. How much are all of you spending on them- i.e. buying/renting/filling?
</STRONG>

I just got setup with the big 50-lb CO2 tank, it cost $34 bucks a year and it was about 12 bucks to fill it.

#1 yes or Stick welder.

#2 yes

#3 Just use steel and save money on
equipment and material.

#4 Sawzall and a grinder.

Originally posted by wrendog:
<STRONG>
4. I've been using a Dewalt 14" chopsaw to make most of my cuts on box tube and the like-- is there a more precise way of cutting and can you bevel edges easier (my angle finder on the saw only goes to 45 degrees and I've needed to make 60 degree cuts before on short pieces of metal that I can't flip around if you follow me)?
Thanks</STRONG>


You could use a porta band & grinder, make sure you have plenty of blades.

a CO2 argon mix is better than just CO2

Get an Argon mix much better IMO, mine cost me $4.50 a month to rent the bottle and about 40 to fill it, one bottle last me about 30 lbs of wire, more than a year of use, it is one of the torpedo size you mentioned..

Chopsaw is not a perfect tool, the blade flexs, that is what is causing the offset, I prefer a bandsaw if you can find one..

You will not be happy with the results of the TIG conversion, while it will work on some material it never looks right..

Originally posted by TPI_Jeep:
[QB], one bottle last me about 30 lbs of wire, more than a year of use, it is one of the torpedo size you mentioned..
QB]


A year? I just went though 30lbs and a bottle in less than a month...
<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

I allways heard argon mix for pretty,co2 for penetration-- what I heard <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Thanks for the input guys. From what I have read, Argon and Tungsten are better at cooling the bead and making prettier welds as was mentioned. I generally want maximum penetration-- especially with my moderately powered welder-- so I'll stick to CO2 for most Jeep-related stuff. If this line of reasoning is correct, does flux core get better penetration than gas-shielded welding? I laid a few beads after I ran out of CO2 just to see what would happen and noticed that the arc ran very hot and a puddle did not form-- it more just burned through the material; ugly ass welds and lots of splatter and deep burns. With a lower-powered welder can I use flux core to get maximum penetration for 1/4" and 5/16" stuff that I'm having to use multiple passes for now?

I read about the 75/25 Ar/CO2 mix or whatever but thought that it'd compromise my penetration and structural strength. I just don't want Dring mounts flying off and killing anyone. Pretty is nice but functional and safe is first.

I kind of thought that about the chop saw-- with such a big disc--fiberglass especially I figured it was flexing big time. I've gone the sawzall and grinder route too-- but that just sucks; I have neither the skill nor patience for it.

The reason for the poor weld is no shielding gas when you ran out. You get lots of air in the weld and it make a poor brittle useless weld. The flux core wire shouldn't have any deeper penetration since the fluxes main function is to create the shielding gas. You could get flux cores with alloying agents for different materials, but I don't think the penetration is appriciably more.

As for me, I don't like chipping slag. It seems to me that flux core wire slag is hard to remove kinda like 6010 or 6011 SMAW rod. If you are making multiple passes, you need to remove 100% of the slag or you will get slag inclusion and have a porous weld.

I have had my TIG setup in 3 different states now... In FL Gas for it was cheap, like $12 a fill for a 125 cu ft bottle.

In CA it was like $28-30 a fill

Now in TX it is like $45 a fill.

As for conversion from MIG to TIG, I am not trying to be a smart ass here, but you need to do some more reading, or better yet, find a competent welder in your area and buy him lunch <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Tungsten refers to the electrode, an extremely hard metal, not a gas. In a MIG the electic current is carried by the filler material, a TIG is like torch welding, you have a heat source and your filler material is separate.

Originally posted by wrendog:
<STRONG>I laid a few beads after I ran out of CO2 just to see what would happen and noticed that the arc ran very hot and a puddle did not form-- it more just burned through the material; ugly ass welds and lots of splatter and deep burns. </STRONG>

Biggest problem I see here is when you go from flux core to gas you have to reverse the polarity. Flux does get better penetration IMO but the mess is not worth it. I just slow down and turn my wire speed up to get good pen with my mig..

Originally posted by TNT'sXJ's:
<STRONG>
A year? I just went though 30lbs and a bottle in less than a month...
<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Darn, what ya building.... I built a race car and plated the whole frame on my Jeep along with hundreds of little projects...

My hats off to ya, you are the wire burning KING.. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by wrendog:
<STRONG>3. Can you convert MIG to TIG just by purchasing some Tungsten gas and using different wire? I'd like to mess around with aluminum a bit but have tried and MIG does poorly on Al (just as I've read <IMG SRC="smilies/clown.gif" border="0"> ).
</STRONG>

No, TIG is more than the difference in shielding gas, it is a completely different type of welding. You have a fixed Tungsten electrode in a holder, connected to a foot pedal to control the current and heat. You feed filler material in the form of rod with the other hand. Because the electrode is fixed and doesn't feed out, it gets really hot, so the electrode holder must have some method of cooling, usually they circulate a small amount of water thru it. Just one more thing to have to hook up, and you need a drain.

TIG is very difficult to do, tough to get the hang of. Until you get it right, the welds look like crap. But when it's done right, they really do look nice.

I also recommend you go find a good welding shop that has a TIG setup so you can see one. Maybe take a class so you can give it a try.

I would stay with mig and not do the conversion unless you have tig welded before...IMHO tig is very hard to learn and to get good at. I do it every day so I am getting fairly good at it now

and unless you have some kind of intruction tig will be hard to learn. tig welding steel is not fun

Originally posted by xextr3m3:
<STRONG>I would stay with mig and not do the conversion unless you have tig welded before...IMHO tig is very hard to learn and to get good at. I do it every day so I am getting fairly good at it now

and unless you have some kind of intruction tig will be hard to learn. tig welding steel is not fun</STRONG>


I disagree, I have picked up all kinds of welding now except oxy ascetylen. I started with TIG, and my lessons were, "there's the power switch, if you step on that pedal it starts heating."

I then "stepped down" to a squirt gun welder (mig) and then stepped down AGAIN when I fried my miller TIG's foot pedal and had to use it as a stick welder for a month and a half. The easiest to learn was TIG (on .065 stainless fabbing headers no less).

I would recommend trying TIG and see how you take to it.. Just my $.02

Originally posted by TPI_Jeep:
<STRONG>Biggest problem I see here is when you go from flux core to gas you have to reverse the polarity. Flux does get better penetration IMO but the mess is not worth it. I just slow down and turn my wire speed up to get good pen with my mig..</STRONG>

This sounds like the problem you had with flux core Wrendog, I use flux core cause I wanted to get started and didnt want to look around for the cheapest bottle. My Welds arent the pretties but its not the fault of the welding wire, I have laid some great beads but still working on my skills and getting the settings right on my welder.

You can Tig weld with a Mig welder, but it is more of a novelty than any significant benefit. I've seen it done. You just buy a tungsten electrode (it is a metal with a very high melting temp, not a gas), drill out a tip for the electode and swage it in. You need to run argon and DCEN, and obviously you take the MIG wire out. You won't be happy with it on aluminum as you will have trouble breaking up the oxide scale floating on top. The other problem is that MIG suplies are constant voltage, while TIG performs best with constant current. The different penetration of different gases has more to do with their different ionization voltage than any cooling effect. Argon has the lowest voltage while CO2 and helium are higher. At a constant current, the higher arc voltage will put more heat in the arc.
I never had any trouble learning TIG welding either. I gas welded muffler pipe for 3 years, so TIG was much more familiar than stick welding, which I only practiced in class. One thing is the same for all of them: Practice makes perfect.

I do have some more reading to do. Thanks for the responses.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wrendog:
[QB]Just have a few miscellaneous welding questions:

I am building my tire carrier and bumper now with my 110V MIG-- it's a blast! I've done a fair share of research on welding-- reading net pages, practicing on tons of scrap metal, etc. and think that the project is coming along nicely. I have depleted a small (power tank size?) bottle of CO2 already and don't want to just refill that if I have to keep refilling it constantly.

1. Do all of you buy those huge torpedo (not sure of the size) canisters of CO2? Here in KC you have to rent them for an enormous deposit and have them filled up for a pretty hefty price as well. How much are all of yuo spending on them- i.e. buying/renting/filling?

Here in KC never buy the tank, they end up screwing you in the end. Praxair owns nearly every refill station in town. I'd run a 75/25 mix and yoou always run flux core wire with sheild gas for better pentration.

<IMG SRC="smilies/skull.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by KLF


No, TIG is more than the difference in shielding gas, it is a completely different type of welding. You have a fixed Tungsten electrode in a holder, connected to a foot pedal to control the current and heat. You feed filler material in the form of rod with the other hand. Because the electrode is fixed and doesn't feed out, it gets really hot, so the electrode holder must have some method of cooling, usually they circulate a small amount of water thru it. Just one more thing to have to hook up, and you need a drain.

TIG is very difficult to do, tough to get the hang of. Until you get it right, the welds look like crap. But when it's done right, they really do look nice.

I also recommend you go find a good welding shop that has a TIG setup so you can see one. Maybe take a class so you can give it a try.


haha, glad u cleared that up.. i don't see any reason to even to attempt to tig weld something on your truck.. stick or mig.. tig is great for small stainless and aluminum, but not for spring hangers, perches, etc..

and u are right about a tig looking good... mine look really sweet.. only wish i had a digicam to post a few..

tig rocks, but not on a truck.. don't even consider wasting the $$$..

GTAW(TIG)

i thought i learned how to weld on a cracker box lincoln. i was wrong joined the navy and filled in all the gaps that were in the welding field. they started us out doing gas welding[as in muffler shops to teach us control]it is a cheap way to learn and get the hang of it. then went to stick. but moved into tig about a year later, i had found welder heaven. it is basicly a electric torch, you have full control of the heat and the filler metal. i traded off my mig welder for a tig set up ten years ago. you can weld anything with a tig set up. but it is much slower than mig. i am about to buy another mig set up for 4x work as in bumpers and frame work. but if i had to have but one machine it would be a tig. i used to run 3 in s/s tubing in food processing plants for vacume/blower delivery systems. all tig with out foot feeds[aka hotheads] you just went faster of slower, depending on what you needed for heat. take a couple of classes at a jr. college, you wont be sorry. mike

Nice welds. I wanted to try TIG to mess around in building nice tables and stuff like that-- nothing Jeep related. If I had the time I'd definitely take some sort of class. For now I have to be content just messing around in the garage myself.

mig should be good enough for just about anything around your house or truck. also if ur making coffe tables and the like remebr the grinder is ur friend.

Originally posted by blkjeep
Get an Argon mix much better IMO, mine cost me $4.50 a month to rent the bottle and about 40 to fill it, one bottle last me about 30 lbs of wire, more than a year of use, it is one of the torpedo size you mentioned..

Chopsaw is not a perfect tool, the blade flexs, that is what is causing the offset, I prefer a bandsaw if you can find one..

You will not be happy with the results of the TIG conversion, while it will work on some material it never looks right..
Your flow rate is to high or you are getting lots of practice. 15 cfh will work in most cases. Mine typically last a year and I weld a lot.

Originally posted by bobaki
I allways heard argon mix for pretty,co2 for penetration-- what I heard <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

The argon does make it pretty , but it also allows the weld to have a more martinsitic (I think that is correct, its been a while) structure, so the weld is stronger, with pure CO2 you can get great penetration, but the weld is sometimes brittle.
Flux core is nice for the ease and greater portability, but does lend to more included stress and impurities in the weld (I had the unfortunate privilege of doing a research paper on self-shielding flux-core arc welding in college, basic jist - at least 3 years ago - was that flux core would work well in situations where gas shielding was impractical - ie under water, on high rises, etc - but if possible use a Ar/CO2 mix shielding gas.)

*disclaimer - this is from a fawking "newbie", my info is from a metalurgy of welding class, I am just now starting to do welding myself for my projects*