Lets try something different here:

Post up a rule you want CLARIFICATION on, and get an answer on what is ok, and what is not. This is not "changing" the rules, just clarifying.

If you have a thought on a rule that needs CHANGED, post up too. Maybe something is confusing the way the rules are written.

PLEASE DO NOT post "this should be legal because I want it, and it doesnt make sense why its not"

This post is intended to help with the habit of bash back and forth stuff. If it turns ugly, Im deleting it.

The real goal here, is Im currently trying to rework the rules to present to the BOD, so they are CLEAR and COMPLETE. Just trying to make the class even better than it is! :)

Frame notching for shocks and steering. How much and what is allowed?

I'd like to see the engine placement rule dropped its very vague and can interpreted in so many correct ways it just comes down to opinion. The difference in frames IFS to SA to even different years. Other than it being in the front with a front mounted radiator there is so many disadvantages to pushing to some oddball spot it won't be an issue. From a builders stand point it is most likely the hardest rule to interpet...when building an ftoy.

Frame notching for shocks and steering. How much and what is allowed?

As long as we're asking: frame notching for seats, too.



I'd like to see the engine placement rule dropped its very vague and can interpreted in so many correct ways it just comes down to opinion. The difference in frames IFS to SA to even different years. Other than it being in the front with a front mounted radiator there is so many disadvantages to pushing to some oddball spot it won't be an issue. From a builders stand point it is most likely the hardest rule to interpet...when building an ftoy.

Move it back no more than 8" and down no more than 1" from the stock position it was in on the frame it was on...

...and wouldn't hurt to write the caveat that moving it back the full 8" causes rear driveline angle problems unless you run an early tranny.

How about something concerning WE Rock requirements on the FToys and which set of their rules do we use (stock-mod, pro-mod, unlimited).

IE, roof panel thickness. It states material options, and mounting differences, but not thickness requirements.

Also, is there a flooring requirement? Minimum coverage? Minimum thickness?

How about something concerning WE Rock requirements on the FToys and which set of their rules do we use (stock-mod, pro-mod, unlimited).

IE, roof panel thickness. It states material options, and mounting differences, but not thickness requirements.

Also, is there a flooring requirement? Minimum coverage? Minimum thickness?

These rules are across the board for all classes and probably come more from WEROCK than F toy. They have a rule sheet on there website for each class. Most of the roof panel, firewall, and thickness issues are addressed there. Each class seems to have the same requirements for these items.

How about something concerning WE Rock requirements on the FToys and which set of their rules do we use (stock-mod, pro-mod, unlimited).

IE, roof panel thickness. It states material options, and mounting differences, but not thickness requirements.

Also, is there a flooring requirement? Minimum coverage? Minimum thickness?

WERock, .120 roof, .040 firewall. Floor doesnt have a requirement, you could consider it firewall as it protects from exhaust.

As long as we're asking: frame notching for seats, too.




Move it back no more than 8" and down no more than 1" from the stock position it was in on the frame it was on...

...and wouldn't hurt to write the caveat that moving it back the full 8" causes rear driveline angle problems unless you run an early tranny.

The motor movement is an issue, I would agree. As the engine is tricky. Pick up the tcase, and part of the engine goes up, so where is the 1" measured from.




So specs on how much of notch is acceptable, I would tend with how much must remain.

Maybe on a motor rule, a reference for crank bolt to front frame would be the best option I could think of, but maybe not be the best.

EDIT:
Maybe for notching for shocks and steering... "Must retain one complete side of the frame untouched by the notch" This seems a little drastic for both steering and seat notching though. However notching that far would require a bit of reinforcement, but in the interest of simplicity this may make the most sense. Only concern I could see would be IFS to SA early and SA late frames. But, I would say that is the builders issue to determine what frame will work best for them, and acquire accordingly.

Seem reasonable?

Just for clarity, this is not making the rules. I will be packaging, wording and proposing this to the BOD in the future.

The motor movement is an issue, I would agree. As the engine is tricky. Pick up the tcase, and part of the engine goes up, so where is the 1" measured from.




So specs on how much of notch is acceptable, I would tend with how much must remain.

Maybe on a motor rule, a reference for crank bolt to front frame would be the best option I could think of, but maybe not be the best.

and all currently built trucks get grandfathered in.

and all currently built trucks get grandfathered in.

The motor is going to take some time. It will require taking several measurements from 79-83 truck, 84-85 trucks, and 86-95 trucks. For accurate reference from somewhere on the frame to somewhere on the motors, and in several places. Honestly, Im not sure how to get this clear, but Ill see what I can put it together. Real trick is the angle of the drivetrain affects all the numbers on the motor. :laughing:

The motor mount thing is a bit unclear for all the years. I am using a 95 two wheel drive frame and my motor mounts were level with the frame rails and my 91 toy that I was stripping the mounts were lifted cause of the IFS that was on. So I was a bit confused but just ended just dropping it an inch from the original spot on the 2 wheel drive frame. So I can see the need for some more info on that for future builders.

How bout clearing up the crossmember rule?
minimum of 3 crossmembers necessary - so front/rear ones but does the FROR tcase mount count as 3? is there a minimum material requirement? The way I read it I could just slap a 1" tube anywhere in there even right next to a front/rear crossmember. Could this cause problems with chassis flex? or does the chassis stiffen it up enough

These rules are across the board for all classes and probably come more from WEROCK than F toy. They have a rule sheet on there website for each class. Most of the roof panel, firewall, and thickness issues are addressed there. Each class seems to have the same requirements for these items.

I guess what I meant to say on this subject was that WE Rock doesn't have a set of rules specific to the FToy class. I had read the general race rules, but didn't think the stock-mod rules pertained to me since I don't need to keep the fenders, body, etc.

The motor movement is an issue, I would agree. As the engine is tricky. Pick up the tcase, and part of the engine goes up, so where is the 1" measured from.

Maybe on a motor rule, a reference for crank bolt to front frame would be the best option I could think of, but maybe not be the best.

Nobody seems to know the variances in frames--Pook and I explored this a bit last summer, but neither of us independently came up with any great conclusions. If we tried to find out, when we actually cared to look; and didn't find anything conclusive....is it that much of an issue? :laughing:

I think a distance from stock location (centerline of engine mount bolts on the frame bracket) or center of crank bolt would be the best places to measure.

Wait...rather than worrying about the horizontal location from the frame to a point on the engine......follow me:


We have fairly good guidelines on how to mount the chassis in relation to the frame. The frame can be no shorter than the chassis.

We're really not concerned about people putting their engine too far forward...we just don't want them to "mid-mount" it and put it too far back. If someone set their chassis 3" back from the front of the frame, their motor 8" back on the frame would be only 5" back in the chassis in relation to where a guy's motor would be with frame and chassis flush and his motor 8" back.

So...let's measure the motor setback off the front of the chassis. Set the perimeter (not hood) tubes level, and drop a stringline off the front of the chassis. How far to the crank bolt (or crank?)?



Would there be an equivalent measurement point off the chassis to measure engine height (or drop?)...or is this problematic with varying chassis heights?

From what I can see--knowing that cabs are interchangeable among 2wd, 4wd, IFS, and SA frames....the front frame xmember is in the same vertical location on all frames. Vertical height from top of front stock frame xmember to centerline of crank? This moves a lot when the t-case lifts or lowers. I think original stock mounting height -1" would be easiest to determine....but possibly the greatest variance among rigs.

So specs on how much of notch is acceptable, I would tend with how much must remain.

EDIT:
Maybe for notching for shocks and steering... "Must retain one complete side of the frame untouched by the notch" This seems a little drastic for both steering and seat notching though. However notching that far would require a bit of reinforcement, but in the interest of simplicity this may make the most sense. Only concern I could see would be IFS to SA early and SA late frames. But, I would say that is the builders issue to determine what frame will work best for them, and acquire accordingly.

Seem reasonable?

That's similar to the Stock Mod frame notching rule, right? No need to re-invent the wheel. Very reasonable to me. Heck, Stock Mods vary from make to make; we're only dealing with a few generational differences among Toy trucks and 4Runners.

Nobody seems to know the variances in frames--Pook and I explored this a bit last summer, but neither of us independently came up with any great conclusions. If we tried to find out, when we actually cared to look; and didn't find anything conclusive....is it that much of an issue? :laughing:

I think a distance from stock location (centerline of engine mount bolts on the frame bracket) or center of crank bolt would be the best places to measure.

Wait...rather than worrying about the horizontal location from the frame to a point on the engine......follow me:


We have fairly good guidelines on how to mount the chassis in relation to the frame. The frame can be no shorter than the chassis.

We're really not concerned about people putting their engine too far forward...we just don't want them to "mid-mount" it and put it too far back. If someone set their chassis 3" back from the front of the frame, their motor 8" back on the frame would be only 5" back in the chassis in relation to where a guy's motor would be with frame and chassis flush and his motor 8" back.

So...let's measure the motor setback off the front of the chassis. Set the perimeter (not hood) tubes level, and drop a stringline off the front of the chassis. How far to the crank bolt (or crank?)?



Would there be an equivalent measurement point off the chassis to measure engine height (or drop?)...or is this problematic with varying chassis heights?

From what I can see--knowing that cabs are interchangeable among 2wd, 4wd, IFS, and SA frames....the front frame xmember is in the same vertical location on all frames. Vertical height from top of front stock frame xmember to centerline of crank? This moves a lot when the t-case lifts or lowers. I think original stock mounting height -1" would be easiest to determine....but possibly the greatest variance among rigs.


Front crossmembers where a bit different , they adjusted the body mounts to compensate. Goes along with the ifs frame being flatter and thicker all the way through.

Then maybe we could survey body mounts and give a top center of front crossmember to crank dimension for each frame style??

On the motor placement issue. It's easy, just measure where your motor mounts bolt up. Don't go any more than one inch lower, and don't go any more than 8" back. Why over complicate it.
It doesn't matter what frame it is. The motor is in the same spot. think about where the motor is with the body on. It doesn't matter if it is IFS or straight axle. It is in the same spot.

Edit.
Nevermind........
What John said back 8 down 1,
rule is fine..............

F-toy allows the new BFG See-Thru tires??? I thought those were illegal but see them here in this diagram!!!???

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=387890&stc=1&d=1220024848

F-toy allows the new BFG See-Thru tires??? I thought those were illegal but see them here in this diagram!!!???

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=387890&stc=1&d=1220024848

wrong brand:flipoff2:
See-thru tires

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These tires are made by Michelin. Maybe one day they will have a mudgrip available...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e230/7734blanton/seethroughtires.jpg

F-toy allows the new BFG See-Thru tires??? I thought those were illegal but see them here in this diagram!!!???

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=387890&stc=1&d=1220024848

Appreciate the humor, but Im hoping to not have this thread turn into a cluster, like so many before! :)

On the motor placement issue. It's easy, just measure where your motor mounts bolt up. Don't go any more than one inch lower, and don't go any more than 8" back. Why over complicate it.
It doesn't matter what frame it is. The motor is in the same spot. think about where the motor is with the body on. It doesn't matter if it is IFS or straight axle. It is in the same spot.

Yes...and no. If I measure to crank bolt on a stock truck, say I get 6" from frame bottom to crank.

Now, I lift the tcase to flat bottom, my engine will ROTATE on the motor mounts, actually causing my crank bolt to go down some, say 1/4" Now If I drop my motor 1" at the motor mount, my crank bolt will be ~1.25" lower than the original numbers. Am I legal, or not?

Rethinking this, I need a favor from everyone currently running with the engine intentionally lowered. Shoot me a PM:
-frame year
-measure block/pan face, directly under centerline of the oil filter to the ground
-bottom of frame at front shackle to ground
-subtract, and send me the ##

As was pointed out thought, do we really care than much to get that specific, argueably no. BUT Im trying to help in wording of rules to answer questions before they even get asked.

How bout clearing up the crossmember rule?
minimum of 3 crossmembers necessary - so front/rear ones but does the FROR tcase mount count as 3? is there a minimum material requirement? The way I read it I could just slap a 1" tube anywhere in there even right next to a front/rear crossmember. Could this cause problems with chassis flex? or does the chassis stiffen it up enough

Hmmm, Ill ask the BOD, and get back to you. I would say for longevity youd want more than 3 anyway. Aside from chassis mounted ones, we've got 7, 4 are a grid under the trans/tcase.

Nobody seems to know the variances in frames--Pook and I explored this a bit last summer, but neither of us independently came up with any great conclusions. If we tried to find out, when we actually cared to look; and didn't find anything conclusive....is it that much of an issue? :laughing:

I think a distance from stock location (centerline of engine mount bolts on the frame bracket) or center of crank bolt would be the best places to measure.

Wait...rather than worrying about the horizontal location from the frame to a point on the engine......follow me:


We have fairly good guidelines on how to mount the chassis in relation to the frame. The frame can be no shorter than the chassis.

We're really not concerned about people putting their engine too far forward...we just don't want them to "mid-mount" it and put it too far back. If someone set their chassis 3" back from the front of the frame, their motor 8" back on the frame would be only 5" back in the chassis in relation to where a guy's motor would be with frame and chassis flush and his motor 8" back.

So...let's measure the motor setback off the front of the chassis. Set the perimeter (not hood) tubes level, and drop a stringline off the front of the chassis. How far to the crank bolt (or crank?)?



Would there be an equivalent measurement point off the chassis to measure engine height (or drop?)...or is this problematic with varying chassis heights?

From what I can see--knowing that cabs are interchangeable among 2wd, 4wd, IFS, and SA frames....the front frame xmember is in the same vertical location on all frames. Vertical height from top of front stock frame xmember to centerline of crank? This moves a lot when the t-case lifts or lowers. I think original stock mounting height -1" would be easiest to determine....but possibly the greatest variance among rigs.

"X" is cake for the different years.

"Y" is the one that varies (see above post) And no the front xmember does not stay in the same location, especially between 84/85 and 86-95 frame, there is ~1" change.

Yes...and no. If I measure to crank bolt on a stock truck,

Dont measure to the crank bolt. Measure to the motor mount. That is what you are modifying and that is the constant in all situations.

True, I was looking for an easy way to check. Since with a "doghouse" firewall getting to the motor mount is next to impossible.

I would have to agree with John on this one. Use a reference on the motor mount area to get the dimension. Frame heights are different but only from the top plane of the frame down. When you move the motor back 8 inches you are dropping the motor 1 inch because of the slope of the frame.

I would have to agree with John on this one. Use a reference on the motor mount area to get the dimension. Frame heights are different but only from the top plane of the frame down. When you move the motor back 8 inches you are dropping the motor 1 inch because of the slope of the frame.


Only on a pre 85 frame. IFS frames stay almost flat.

The shitty part with IFS trucks is the hendrix type mount will not work as is and in the process of stripping the frame down and cutting all of the mounts off you also remove the stock engine mounts which are built into the upper A arm mounts.

I think Im going to leave this rule alone for now. There are too many ideal places to measure from, and frankly too many frame too measure. 79-83, 84-85, 86-95 are all different heights. I'll leave that too, "if it looks illegal, protest it" category.

How bout clearing up the crossmember rule?
minimum of 3 crossmembers necessary - so front/rear ones but does the FROR tcase mount count as 3? is there a minimum material requirement? The way I read it I could just slap a 1" tube anywhere in there even right next to a front/rear crossmember. Could this cause problems with chassis flex? or does the chassis stiffen it up enough

Checked with the BOD, rule stays as is. So yes, 3 crossmembers, one front, one rear is required. What you build them from is up to you. I will add, that from what Ive gathered previously, the crossmembers must be full height of the frame (for the front and rear ones) but can be tapered. The frame rails cannot be tapered.

does the FROR tcase mount/crossmember count as the 3rd? or would the budbuilt style mounts count as a 3rd?

Just thinking people will go the minimum for weight and it could cause issues

does the FROR tcase mount/crossmember count as the 3rd? or would the budbuilt style mounts count as a 3rd?


Yes, and Yes

roger that

Although the question has probably already been answered I was just curious why the 22RTE engine is not allowed?

I will agree that it is a rare option, but in the interest of building on something that I already own, I wanted to bring it up.

I also agree that the first thing that pops into my head when you say turbo toyota is LCEngineering's cover engine. I'm just interested in STOCK.

If I'm going too far off feel free to delete.

As for why, simply would gain a serious power advantage over NA motors. The original rules only allowed for carburators.

I would guess, that rule was put in place to keep an easy even playing field.

As for why, simply would gain a serious power advantage over NA motors. The original rules only allowed for carburators.

I would guess, that rule was put in place to keep an easy even playing field.
To add to what Brian said. There is no way that we could say "stock turbo motors only" because there is no way to know what is stock. We all know that you can get 300+ HP out of a 22RE turbo motor.
It's a management issue that we do not want to tackle.

Damn 300hp. I want a turbo :)

Damn 300hp. I want a turbo :)
You need to take a ride in Mike Hendricks rig. I'm guessing it puts out around 210HP (with the trubo turned down) and it hauls ass!

Damn 300hp. I want a turbo :)


That would take a lot of dough to make it work, reliably:D

There's a cool video on Mike Hendricks' MySpace page with him doing rooster tail up an enormous sand dune.

His "ultimate Formula Four" is going to be pretty damn cool with the 3rz, too! :smokin:

I agree, it would be a complicated issue to control.

I just was looking in the LC catalog and noticed that their smog legal stroker is listed at 145+ hp NATURALLY ASPIRATED, which is more horsepower than my turbo puts out, and it got me all worked up. Not to mention all the cool stuff the guys at engnbldr.com and Doa racing come up with, for a hell of alot more than I have in my motor.

yeah, I'll shut up now. Take both of my 22rTe's and go sit in the corner.:flipoff2:

I agree, it would be a complicated issue to control.

I just was looking in the LC catalog and noticed that their smog legal stroker is listed at 145+ hp, which is more horsepower than my turbo puts out, and it got me all worked up. Not to mention all the cool stuff the guys at engnbldr.com and Doa racing come up with, for a hell of alot more than I have in my motor.

yeah, I'll shut up now. Take both of my 22rTe's and go sit in the corner.:flipoff2:

Believe me, if they were legal, we'd be running 180-200 hp, ~8:1 compression, garrett turbo, etc in ours! That way, when I pass John in KOH I can spray him with sand too! :laughing:

But the rules have to draw the line somewhere, and I would say everyone doesnt like one or a few rules, but the specs allow for fair competition.

on a more serious note.

the part in the rules about aftermarket housing being allowed, is there a max width?

on a more serious note.

the part in the rules about aftermarket housing being allowed, is there a max width?


nope.

But remember cone spacing can get pretty narrow so you need to keep that in mind when figuring out your outside of tire to outside of tire measurement.

This I why you cant have a turbo.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i126/AirRideequipt/th_roost.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i126/AirRideequipt/?action=view&current=roost.flv)
Cause some idiot would build one like this.

This I why you cant have a turbo.

Cause some idiot would build one like this.

damn, thats awesome! we saw you on course at donner with your dog in the back, was he spotting you??:p

Is that horrible turbo bark Im hearing?

And yes, we would have built that into our ftoy if we could have. 4 or 2wd?

This I why you cant have a turbo.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i126/AirRideequipt/th_roost.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i126/AirRideequipt/?action=view&current=roost.flv)
Cause some idiot would build one like this.You would probably do better in 4X4 :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

You would probably do better in 4X4 :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

And have those front tires throwing torrents of sand in your face. :laughing:

2wd is way more fun.

Ya, Mike is the poster child for why we don't allow turbo motors in F-toy :eek:

He's the poster child for all the kewl alternative motors. Maybe he just does it to pick on the BOD! :laughing:

SICK, I need a bigger turbo:evil:,
and you need a blow off valve.:shaking:

This I why you cant have a turbo.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i126/AirRideequipt/th_roost.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i126/AirRideequipt/?action=view&current=roost.flv)
Cause some idiot would build one like this.

I did some searching and I can't find the minimum metal thickness for aluminum roof panels. I found what I think is the minimum for steel in this post.

Go to werock rules. It is the same for all classes.
I will look into it after supper and try to follow up.

Thanks,
I found this in the Modified Stock, Pro Modified and Unlimited class rules:
6.15.9: A minimum of.040 magnetic expanded or flat sheet metal, or 1/8” aluminum, must cover
the area immediately over the driver seat and be welded or bolted to the roll cage. Steel tubing
must surround the roof panel.

Page 5 in here: http://www.we-rock.cc/forms/rulebook_08_unlimited.pdf

I was looking on FToy.org and the general rules.

Thanks,
I found this in the Modified Stock, Pro Modified and Unlimited class rules:
6.15.9: A minimum of.040 magnetic expanded or flat sheet metal, or 1/8” aluminum, must cover
the area immediately over the driver seat and be welded or bolted to the roll cage. Steel tubing
must surround the roof panel.

Page 5 in here: http://www.we-rock.cc/forms/rulebook_08_unlimited.pdf

I was looking on FToy.org and the general rules.

Correct, almost everyone runs aluminum across all the classes.