http://www.warn.com/warn.nsf/pages/TruckProducts.Winches.winch9_5ti.html

... seems a little weak to me. I was hoping for something rated for UHMWPE rope. Unless that's what a "CAM brake" is for.

cm "inquiring minds want to know" k

Brake: Automatic Direct Drive Cone

Seems unfavorable to UHMWPE to me.

Please help me get a clue here. What makes a winch not work well with the rope?

yeah.. hows the brake going to know the difference between rope and wire?

Originally posted by Mustard Dog
Please help me get a clue here. What makes a winch not work well with the rope?

most winches brake is mounted inside of the drum, so when applied, it creates a trememndous amount of heat in there. a wire rope acts as a heat sink, while the rope acts as an insulator. not good for the winch or the rope...

UHMWPE (plastic) also has a lower melting point than steel wire ... who woulda' thunk it.

Word on the street is that guys have had problems literally melting the first layer of rope from the heat of heavy use ... el snapo.

That's why the 8274 is high on my list once again. The brake is external to the drum ... much friendlier to UHMWPE.

cmk

Thank's for the info....isn't this board great :)

Ya learn something new everyday.:cool:

And from 9V no less... :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Mo
And from 9V no less... :flipoff2:

:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Aggro
Seems unfavorable to UHMWPE to me.

The "automatic direct drive cone" is the same brake description used on almost all their other winches. Warn recommends against synthetic rope because of heat buildup due to this brake design.

I haven't got a clue what "multi-segment CAM actuated" translates into in real-world terms.

Since I've never actually been able to get my "direct drive cone brake" to heat up noticeably, maybe I'm missing something. Under what conditions does the cone brake generate a lot of heat? The only thing I can think of, is under stop-n-go winching, where you're winching a foot, stopping, winching a foot, stopping, for hours at a time, with no breaks.

Um, how about powering out? Take the cable off, power the winch out, and touch the drum. Then go find a good burn slave.


Powering out literally drives the drum right through the force of the brake. That's one of the big advantages of an 8274, also. Powering out is about as fast as powering in...

Just 'cause it appears nobody's actually ever done this before... I called Warn to ask about the cone brake generating heat.

Talked to a very friendly guy in tech support, who explained to me that under "power in" winching, the brake isn't doing anything; it's disengaged completely.
Freespooling, the brake isn't doing anything.
Stop-n-go winching, the brake is working, but not a whole lot--not enough to generate any noticeable heat.
Powering out, the brake is working its little direct-drive-cone butt off. And generating a lot of heat.

Translation:
If you power your winch line out for extended periods, you'll run the risk of damage to the winch or rope, if you use synthetic rope on your winch.

Long hard pulls in, don't matter to the winch or the rope.

Freespooling, doesn't matter to the winch or rope.

This is from Warn... I haven't tried calling Ramsey or Superwinch about it yet.

Scott, thanks a ton dude. That is some spot on tech.

cm "rethinking an HS now" k

Okay, just got off the phone with tech support at Superwinch. The guy there has personally been running synthetic for quite some time, his son has been running it on an S9 for about two years, and that Superwinch's position is that it's not a problem.

He did mention that the winch will generate more heat when powering out, but that they've never seen it actually heat up hot enough to damage fiber rope.

Ramsey's tech support said that their planetary winches generate heat spooling in or out, and they don't recommend using synthetic on those. Their worm gear winches are OK to use synthetic on, however.

Just figured I'd go straight to the source and find out... maybe this'll help reduce the mass speculation.

You the man Scott :beer:

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper
Just figured I'd go straight to the source and find out... maybe this'll help reduce the mass speculation.

... trying to sell more synthetic rope, huh? :)

cm "can't say I blame ya'" k

I got the same stories last month when I called Superwench and Warn. Didn't bother calling Ramsey since their stuff sucks.

:flipoff2:

*raising hand*

I have actually melted a winch down due to heat. Well.. someone did it, it was my winch.

Now.. it took a LOT for it to get real hot. about 1 hour of winching up and down a 50+ degree hill non-stop. (Winch hill demonstration)

The charging system kept up fine, but the winch powering out time after time got really hot. to the point it burnt up 2 solenoids, the motor and the brake.

Yes... heat is an issue, but I've only seen it be an issue on LOTS of power out pulls.

:flipoff2:
synthetic rope rules!
:flipoff2:

back to the new warn winch...am i reading right that it has a tempurature sensor that will let you know via the remote when it's getting too hot?

-Steve

I dont know nothin about no synthetic rope, what I do know is that winch looks BAD ARSE! I'd dip that bad boy in some chrome and call it a day!

(No really, it does look bad ass. Very futeristic.)

Originally posted by offroadr35
back to the new warn winch...am i reading right that it has a tempurature sensor that will let you know via the remote when it's getting too hot?

From the Warn page, I'm guessing that it'll tell you when the *motor* is too hot. I don't think it'll tell you about anything else. But I could be mistaken.

Originally posted by cmk
... trying to sell more synthetic rope, huh?

The more I know about the product, the better off I am as a dealer. :) Having finally gotten answers from all of the big three, if nothing else, lets me relay that information to my customers and help them make a more informed decision. Now I know, with decent confidence, that I should recommend against fiber rope to owners of Ramsey planetary winches.

I agree with TyTy on the look... looks very OEM '02 Ford-ish. Would blend right in on the front end of a Taurus.... :p
I'm not sure I like it.

Is it just me, or do

"new indexed connector for the hand-held remote control"
and
"motor-mounted thermal sensor which relays instantaneous temperature information to the hand-held winch remote "

translate into "your old remote doesn't fit"
and
"our new remote is much more expensive to replace"

???

Rumor is that it's finally waterproof
"alloy housing is sealed at key points for superior water/environmental resistance and provides a shield for the motor wiring"
which is a very good thing.

Maybe I should call them again and ask... they're gonna be sick of hearing from me. :)

I'd put the cost of a red star on the line saying that you are correct. The old remotes won't work with the new winch, vice versa, and the new remotes will be far more expensive to replace.

For shits and giggles, does anyone know why the M8274-50's are so DANG expensive as compared to say an HS9500? Given the fact that's it's basically an old winch with a new motor, I would think Warn should be able to cut their margins given the fact that they've already sold a boatload of 8274's over the last couple of decades.

cm "oh, wait, that would make too much sense" k

Originally posted by cmk
For shits and giggles, does anyone know why the M8274-50's are so DANG expensive as compared to say an HS9500? Given the fact that's it's basically an old winch with a new motor,

Haven't asked Warn this one either... but I've got a couple guesses.

1. They don't make the 8274's production-line style like the others. All the parts are different, and 8274-specific, so the lack of interchangeability costs more.

2. They shut down a production line to make a huge batch of 8274's when they do make 8274's.

3. They warehouse a huge run of 8274's. Inventory costs money.

4. It's a battleship of a winch. They'll sell you one, and unless you sell your rig, and the winch with it, they'll never sell you another winch--you'll never need another. There are 30-year-old 8274's still going strong out there. If they can't bank on selling you another winch in 5 or 10 years, they've gotta make what they can on this one.

5. Have you ever lifted one? There's a lot of metal there--and that's not cheap either.

Originally posted by twaldher
*raising hand*

I have actually melted a winch down due to heat. Well.. someone did it, it was my winch.

Now.. it took a LOT for it to get real hot. about 1 hour of winching up and down a 50+ degree hill non-stop. (Winch hill demonstration)

The charging system kept up fine, but the winch powering out time after time got really hot. to the point it burnt up 2 solenoids, the motor and the brake.

Yes... heat is an issue, but I've only seen it be an issue on LOTS of power out pulls.

Ahhh but we're talking about melting a rope with a melt temperature of 150 degrees. A moot point for me anyway my 8274 doesnt generate the same heat. And Scott, I think your last point about the 8274's cost is the most likely. Mines about 30 years old and still goin.. and I'll likely never buy another winch

I had to power out last weekend on my HS9500i
(that damn adrasion gurd thingy got stuck!)
durm was warm, not even hot, so i would guess maybe like 4-5 power outs would make it hot, but who power outs that much?
(PLUG for Scott)
I LOVED that rope, nice and soft in my hands, easy to move around and what not.

:plug-for-UHMWPE:

Last week, while in CO, I pulled cable for a buddy with the UHMWPE ... damn that was nice (lightweight, soft, no frays, easy to rewind). Later in the week I was pulling cable for another dude with standard steel wire rope ... man, I missed that UHMWPE.

cm "I'm sold on it" k

I suppose I'll chime in here. I (we) winch a ton in the winter, normally always powering out. It is easier to pull a cable with no resistance on it than trying to unspool and pull cable thru waist deep snow. I know the i series get hot quick, whereas the 8274 remain cool for much longer. Apparently this is one contributing factor.
Now, for my question. None of my snow wheeling friends use synthetic- we all use cable. Would having a spool full of synthetic rope get snowed on while driving, absorbing the water from melted snow, freeze over night be a bad thing? Would the cable be damaged the next time winching because it was frozen? Would you be able to un spool? Basically, how would frozen synthetic line work? Would it be ok? Scott, help. Thanks!

Originally posted by Aggro
I suppose I'll chime in here. I (we) winch a ton in the winter, normally always powering out. It is easier to pull a cable with no resistance on it than trying to unspool and pull cable thru waist deep snow. I know the i series get hot quick, whereas the 8274 remain cool for much longer. Apparently this is one contributing factor.
Now, for my question. None of my snow wheeling friends use synthetic- we all use cable. Would having a spool full of synthetic rope get snowed on while driving, absorbing the water from melted snow, freeze over night be a bad thing? Would the cable be damaged the next time winching because it was frozen? Would you be able to un spool? Basically, how would frozen synthetic line work? Would it be ok? Scott, help. Thanks!

:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

But I can't get out... my frozen synthetic line snapped in half!

:flipoff2:

or... "Listen asshole... I would use my winch to get out if the fawking line wasn't frozen on the drum! :flipoff:"

hehehe.... not bashing fiber rope... just havin some fun. :D

just power out to thaw the rope:flipoff2:

Originally posted by reddwarf
just power out to thaw the rope:flipoff2:


my 8274 doesn't warm up. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Aggro



my 8274 doesn't warm up. :flipoff2:

Well.. your fawked then ain't ya! :flipoff2:

maybe, flic your bic?

Originally posted by twaldher


Well.. your fawked then ain't ya! :flipoff2:

maybe, flic your bic?

Excellent tech there twiddler! :flipoff2:
This is actually a valid concern for me since I do roughly 98.9965% of my winching in the winter. I would've already bought the synthetic if I knew it would be ok for the long term. Anyone got a real answer?
I have tried rapelling with my climbing rope when it's wet and frozen, and it SUCKS!! You can't do anything with the rope. I know, different stuff.

Originally posted by Aggro
I suppose I'll chime in here. I (we) winch a ton in the winter, normally always powering out. It is easier to pull a cable with no resistance on it than trying to unspool and pull cable thru waist deep snow. I know the i series get hot quick, whereas the 8274 remain cool for much longer. Apparently this is one contributing factor.

I do a fair bit of this too. I pull out enough line to either get my soggy waist-deep-frozen butt to drier ground, and then go drag it (on freespool at the winch, I just pull out a bunch right there) once I can stand instead of wade.

Or I freespool off a bunch of line, then throw the hook at a friend (one more reason to run a big heavy hook--it flies farther when you throw it :) ) and have them hook it to a treesaver.

Now, for my question. None of my snow wheeling friends use synthetic- we all use cable. Would having a spool full of synthetic rope get snowed on while driving, absorbing the water from melted snow, freeze over night be a bad thing?

Supposedly, the stuff doesn't absorb water. That's according to the manufacturer. Reality, it'll get soggy, but it'll more or less dry itself out with tension applied (it'll kinda act like a sponge being squeezed--tension "squeezes" the fibers together).

If you get ice formed on top of your winch drum, I think it'd be basically the same as if that happened to steel cable--you'd wind off a layer or so, the ice would fall apart, and you'd be good to go. The rope definitely won't absorb enough water to where it'll damage itself from being flexed or anything like that--it'd just break up the ice and the crystals would fall off.

Would the cable be damaged the next time winching because it was frozen? Would you be able to un spool? Basically, how would frozen synthetic line work? Would it be ok? Scott, help.

Unless you actually froze it in a big chunk to where the winch was actually inoperable, I don't think you'd hurt the line. As for being able to unspool, you can still power out with the synthetic, it's just better if you don't power out for extended periods.

From the snow 'wheeling that I've done with the stuff, frozen synthetic works about the same as frozen steel cable... except that it doesn't hurt to handle it without gloves, 'cause it doesn't conduct heat away from your hands near as fast.

Usually, the first pull of line on my truck, in the winter, is slightly jammed up 'cause my hood drains directly onto my winch, so I get a big-ol-chunk of ice right on my drum. It breaks off when I power out to release the tension from me just hooking the hook to the side of the winch tray, and then everything goes just as normal.

I'm envisioning a winch with the cable frozen in a giant icecube, but I just can't figure out how that'd actually happen. If it did, cable or synthetic, you're not gonna be using it easily.

Actually.. I was envisioning, Synthetic rope absorbing a little water, then the sections of rope freeze together creating a rope ice brick.

And Aggro, had to flip you some shit ya know. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by twaldher
Actually.. I was envisioning, Synthetic rope absorbing a little water, then the sections of rope freeze together creating a rope ice brick.

Could happen in theory. I've never seen it actually happen, but I suppose it's possible. If it wasn't so *$%^# hot, I'd go try it, but my wife will disembowel me if I put my winch in the freezer. :)

So, Scott if you're so confident in it pm me a price for 150 ft of 5/16 with a hook. How much would you like to stand behind the rope for me this winter. I don't know anybody that goes snow wheeling more than me. I will give it a true winter time test- like you my hood directs melt water to the winch and it freezes while I drive. I'll do a writeup for ya... :smilies:

Originally posted by twaldher
Actually.. I was envisioning, Synthetic rope absorbing a little water, then the sections of rope freeze together creating a rope ice brick.

And Aggro, had to flip you some shit ya know. :flipoff2:

Cover the winch with a baggie when not in use.

On my 8274, the brake is activated by the load on the cable. In other words, the more tension on the cable, the tighter the brake holds.

When powering out my winch, there's no drag from the brake unless there's tension on the cable and even then, there's only enough drag to hold the load.

Do the low profile winch brakes work the same way? Or do you power out against the max strength of the brake all the time? Seems like that would make a difference in the heat build up.

The difference between powering out while your wire bitch pulls the cable to the tree, vs. the load of letting your rig down a waterfall at Surprise cyn.

Originally posted by Scott@rockstomper:
my wife will disembowel me...
If she does, will you take pics and post another "stupid human trick" in the Toy forum?

Originally posted by Scott@rockstomper:
my wife will disembowel me if I put my winch in the freezer.

Originally posted by twaldher:
Yes... heat is an issue, but I've only seen it be an issue on LOTS of power out pulls.

Originally posted by Scott@rockstomper:
I called Warn to ask about the cone brake generating heat.

Talked to a very friendly guy in tech support, who explained to me that under "power in" winching, the brake isn't doing anything; it's disengaged completely.
Freespooling, the brake isn't doing anything.
Stop-n-go winching, the brake is working, but not a whole lot--not enough to generate any noticeable heat.
Powering out, the brake is working its little direct-drive-cone butt off. And generating a lot of heat.
If you notice, right before you posted this... I posted: "Um, how about powering out? Take the cable off, power the winch out, and touch the drum. Then go find a good burn slave."

The reason I know this is because of this: The only time I've ever had to find out was yanking a dually out of the mud. A very stuck dually. It was a double-lined snatch-block pull, but my reciver in back was conneected by a 20' strap to a tree behind me. By the time the cable was tight enough to yank the dually free, my strap had stretched to 25-30 feet. So with two trucks, and a fully loaded 9K winch with a satch block in the way... I had to power out to reliever tension on the strap. Damn near burned my hand off when I touched the drum when I fell and caought myself on it. Ow.

Oh, and regarding:

Originally posted by Scott@rockstomper:
Okay, just got off the phone with tech support at Superwinch. The guy there has personally been running synthetic for quite some time, his son has been running it on an S9 for about two years, and that Superwinch's position is that it's not a problem.
I run an X9 (non-integrated solenoid version of the S9 this guy runs) and really like it. It's similar in speed to an XD9000i warn, if that gives you any idea, but operation is the same as far as the brake and what-not. In any position where a warn planetary winch gets hot, so does my winch. I think they're just not so uptight about the heat thing as warn is, is all. I see no reason for UHMWPE to be SAFER on my winch than on a Warn planetary.

My only superwinch realted gripe: The drum is a couple inches wider than a warn: a warn fairlead is 1-2" too narrow to fit. I had one and I tried. However, this also means (since both run similar amounts of cable) that superwinch saw fit to make the drum shallower. So I spend a lot of time re-spooling cable halfway up a side-pull, because the cable has filled up that end of the drum and is jamming on the little handsaver bars. I want my old warn 5687 upright back. The upright warns have a great drum for side pulls. They're easily twice as deep as mine is.

Originally posted by TNToy
If you notice, right before you posted this... I posted: "Um, how about powering out? Take the cable off, power the winch out, and touch the drum. Then go find a good burn slave."

I did notice that... seemed to have showed up in between when I hit "quote" and "submit". :)

I run an X9 (non-integrated solenoid version of the S9 this guy runs) and really like it. It's similar in speed to an XD9000i warn, if that gives you any idea, but operation is the same as far as the brake and what-not. In any position where a warn planetary winch gets hot, so does my winch. I think they're just not so uptight about the heat thing as warn is, is all. I see no reason for UHMWPE to be SAFER on my winch than on a Warn planetary.

I don't see any reason for it to be safer either. Mostly just relaying what Superwinch tech told me. I agree that it sounds like Superwinch is simply less uptight about it than Warn.

I do have to say, I'm surprised that the design of winches is such that they run the brake on power out--I'm trying to figure out what the benefit of that would be. Mentally, I'm envisioning a winch setup where the brake is engaged by default, and locks up the drum. When you hit the motor power, it disengages the brake (either direction) for reduced load, and as soon as you let off motor power, the brake clamps back down. Voila, no overrunning, no hot drums, predictable behavior (I think)....

My only superwinch realted gripe: The drum is a couple inches wider than a warn: a warn fairlead is 1-2" too narrow to fit. I had one and I tried. However, this also means (since both run similar amounts of cable) that superwinch saw fit to make the drum shallower.

But more cable capacity on each wrap, translates into more pull distance on the first layer, so you can winch farther before reducing your pull by overwrapping line. Optimal for side pulls would be a very narrow, very deep drum, while for distance/power pulls, a very wide, shallow drum. Check out a crane cable drum if you get a chance. :)

Originally posted by Dustball


Cover the winch with a baggie when not in use.

Then his pot will get wet.:D

scott, i can see a good reason for running the brake when powering out.

lets say youre powering out down a very steep hill that you just couldnt drive down. with just the motor turning the cable out, then the weight of the truck could start to overrun the winch, so that the truck would be pulling out the cable and driving the winch motor at a high speed. kind of like downshifting a gear (engine braking).

whereas with the brake dragging, it keeps the winch motor turning at a lower rpm and therefore a much more controlled descent.

see what im getting at?

I do have to say, I'm surprised that the design of winches is such that they run the brake on power out--I'm trying to figure out what the benefit of that would be.
Ease of production, low unit cost. It is easier and cheaper to make a cam-engaged single-direction brake than a dual-direction solenoid-engaged brake. The single-direction brake is sturdier and less complex, thus less-likely to fail, and in America, where lawyers reign, that can't be underestimated. I bet those lawyers had something to do with Warn's new temperature-sensing setup...

If you want a true dual-direction self-locking winch, get a worm-drive. The friction is sufficient to not require a brake at all...

Randii

[QUOTE]Originally posted by randii
[B]I do have to say, I'm surprised that the design of winches is such that they run the brake on power out--I'm trying to figure out what the benefit of that would be.
If your winching up a hill, your never going to over come the winch because the forces are working in opposing directions. No need for a brake, untill ya stop.
If your winching down a hill, the weight of the vehicle is going in the same direction as the motor, therefor speeding it up (overpowering). If the brake was more of an on/off brake when powering out, It wouldn't be very smooth at all in extreme situations.IMO. When powering out the vehicle could overpower the motor untill the power is removed, then BAM! brakes on again.
I also believe that the brake is somewhat pressure sensitive, cause just spoolin out cable, mine doesn't get very hot (whole cable even). But I was climbin some stupid vert sh!t, got crossed up and decided to winch down (motor didn't wanna keep runnin, bad place to lose brakes) and the winch was makin' all kinda of groanin noises while powering out, and it was SMOKIN hot at the bottom (about 1/2 cable).