I have been reading through the old welding posts and there doesn't seem to be any regards to penetration of flux core vs. gas shielded. I have been using my Hobart Handler 125 (before Miller started putting the plastic in) and have the flux core wire that it came with, but have never used it because I purchased the tanks and proper wire on the assumption gas is better.

So, my question is: Which has better penetration in your experience?

I ask because I am going to weld in my cage hopefully very soon and in case flux has better penetration I will switch and use the flux I have.

seeya

I'm not sure where, but I'm pretty sure I remember WeldPro saying that fluxcore has better penetration...

Edit: It was this (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38594) thread. He didn't say it exactly, but it's on the first page about 3/4 of the way down.

fluxcore does get better penetration but in my experience if you've got a decent sized welder that's not a big issue. sure is nice not having to clean the flux off of welds when using gas. My vote is for gas ...

- jack

I've heard that the fluxcore pentrates better to. I've also heard from some pro's that flux core wire with shielding gas give the best penetration, but I've never done it, and have no way to back it up. Maybe someone with some experience can prove or disprove that notion.

Chad

Some of the processes here in our fab shop use a wire called "dual shield". It is a flux cored wire used in conjunction with a shielding gas. penetrates very well, makes a very smooth, flowing weld, but it is too hot for lighter materials. For 3/16 on up, it works very well. Also more expensive per pound....


Chad-

How thick is the tube on the cage? If it is only 0.120" or less, Your 125 Hobart will be able to burn through just using solid filler material/tri mix sheild. If you don't get enough penetration or hit your duty limit cycle with solid filler/tri-mix change to CO2 and try that. After that if you still have problems change to a flux core. Too much penetration can make a weld bad (Undercut) just as easy as not enough penetration can. ALso make sure you are running it of a 20 Amp circuit breaker, wired with a least 12AWG copper to a 20 amp rated plug. It will make a world of difference.

At work we use dual shield and it penetrates too good some times on the thinner stuff. It does weld nice and smooth though.

At home I use hard wire with Argon CO2 mix and works real well on fillet welds, but welds leaves too much of a caterpillar to be ground. For your cage this would work fine. Hard wire also is not very tolerate of impurities. Dual shield will allow you to burn through more.

Can you get a spec sheet or manual from Hobart?

My Lincoln SP125Plus is rated for .135 with GMAW (mig) and 5/16 with FCAW (flux). Chiefly, I believe because the mig uses DC+ polarity, and the flux uses DC negative polarity.

That said, I have done lots of up to 1/4" stuff with the MIG, multiple passes, strict preparation...including 8 sets of Rockstomper beadlocks with no leaks.

I say, if cage is .120 wall - stick with MIG (I like the Argon co2 mix). For bigger stuff, I am actually just about to try the FCAW this w/e for the first time - building a new 1/4" winch mount for the Wolf.

Yup, the cage is the ol 2"x .120 wall. I will use the argon/CO2 mix due to your suggestions.

Thanks guys.
Jason

Originally posted by Butch
At work we use dual shield and it penetrates too good some times on the thinner stuff. It does weld nice and smooth though.

At home I use hard wire with Argon CO2 mix and works real well on fillet welds, but welds leaves too much of a caterpillar to be ground. For your cage this would work fine. Hard wire also is not very tolerate of impurities. Dual shield will allow you to burn through more.

The "caterpillar"...is that a tall bead? My flux core test weld came out great (to my inexperienced eyes) but the gas just didn't look too great (a really TALL bead). I slowed the wire speed but still not as nice looking and seemed to "stand" on the metal more vx the flux that seems to "grab" better (sorry for the lack of better terminology). I was test welding on 1/4"

Dual shield???? Will my Millermatic 175 do this? Set the machine up for flux and turn on the gas????

Thanks for any technique advice.

Originally posted by NoJoke


The "caterpillar"...is that a tall bead? My flux core test weld came out great (to my inexperienced eyes) but the gas just didn't look too great (a really TALL bead). I slowed the wire speed but still not as nice looking and seemed to "stand" on the metal more vx the flux that seems to "grab" better (sorry for the lack of better terminology). I was test welding on 1/4"

Dual shield???? Will my Millermatic 175 do this? Set the machine up for flux and turn on the gas????

Thanks for any technique advice.

it sounds likte you had the wire speed to low. Speed it up a little until you get an even "frying bacon" sound.

I have a Hobart 175 and I use flux core with shielded gas to weld. It seems to weld better than my dad's comparable Miller that is running just gas. He is the superintendent of a large construction company and the Catepillar mechanics who come to service there dozers and earth movers all use flux core with shielded gas. They would never give him a straight answer as to why. One did make a comment about because of the welding being outdoors and that if it is windy there can be problems with the gas at the arc being disturbed. honestly, whether you use flux core with shielded gas or just gas you should be fine as long as you have good welding skills. Good luck.

The guy that taught me welds on aircraft and nuclear power plants. From what I have learned from him is this DC- 2/3 heat comes from the work hince better penetration . DC+ 2/3 heat from the rod 1/3 from the work making a bigger taller bead. Flux core use DC- which does penetrate better but you also have more of a chance for impurities in your weld which makes it weeker. DC+ with CO2 does penetrate much better than argon CO2 but most people don't use it because it splatters more and doesn't always look as pretty. Argon CO2 also uses DC+ and looks really good if done correctly. Also if you V everything out good and you have enough heat you should be fine. Flux really works good outdoors in the wind or on rusty metal but for a cage of .120 I personnal would use the CO2 mix because your machine is so low amp. also you will find it cheaper to fill. cost me 22 dollars to fill my 250 cu bottle as oppose to 65 for argon co2. check out Keenjunkyard.com they have just about any kind of metallurgy tip for welding to tempering to annealling you could need.

One thing that nobody mentioned is wire and it's appropriate amperage range. For .120 wall you want to run .030 wire. .035 is too big for your machine and .023 will result in undercut.

Gas-core wire is excellent stuff but most ppl don't realize it was developed to circumvent the low energy characteristics of short circuit mig welding. This type of wire is really meant for machines in the 210+ amp range.

Gas-core wire is an alternative to spray transfer mig welding.

Originally posted by keyice69
The guy that taught me welds on aircraft and nuclear power plants. From what I have learned from him is this DC- 2/3 heat comes from the work hince better penetration . DC+ 2/3 heat from the rod 1/3 from the work making a bigger taller bead. Flux core use DC- which does penetrate better but you also have more of a chance for impurities in your weld which makes it weeker. DC+ with CO2 does penetrate much better than argon CO2 but most people don't use it because it splatters more and doesn't always look as pretty. Argon CO2 also uses DC+ and looks really good if done correctly. Also if you V everything out good and you have enough heat you should be fine. Flux really works good outdoors in the wind or on rusty metal but for a cage of .120 I personnal would use the CO2 mix because your machine is so low amp. also you will find it cheaper to fill. cost me 22 dollars to fill my 250 cu bottle as oppose to 65 for argon co2. check out Keenjunkyard.com they have just about any kind of metallurgy tip for welding to tempering to annealling you could need.

mmmkay, but call me thick in the head....

If DC- penetrates better but can introduce inpurities, why not turn on the gas (argon co2 mix) with DC- and with the flux core and eliminate the impuities. Seems to have the best of both worlds?!?!?

Self-sheilded flux core wire uses way more deoxidizers then gas sheilded flux core. What this means is that if you use gas with a self sheilded flux wire what will happen is DC- will ionize the gas (C25, in your case), the gas will break down into carbon and oxygen. Now the the deoxidizers in the flux not only have to work to clean all the impurities on your steel but they have to fight off the oxygen that is forming from your sheilding gas breaking down. The end result is you don't keep the weldment free of contaminants and you get porosity, impurities and slag inclusion.

Oh, on the lighter side of things, some of the gas gets trapped under the slag causing it to burst and fly off. This hot flying slag usually hit the weldor and you end up doing a funny dance while the slag is burining into your skin.

Originally posted by Goat
This hot flying slag usually hit the weldor and you end up doing a funny dance while the slag is burining into your skin.

Okay, this part I understand! :D

Gas it is!

I have been wondering about this. I have a Hobart 135 and as I am sure you know it is 115v. I am having a new home built and have no idea what the normal wire, plug and breaker they are putting in the new homes here in California. But what you are saying is that I should be running this off of a plug outlet that is 20 amp rated which is linked with at least 12AWG copper wire and connected to a 20 amp breaker? Also, my welder only has about 8 feet or so of power cord. I need an extension cord. What is the longest one should go with this welder and what AWG should it be? Can it be bought at a hardware store or do you have to make it?

Thanks for the help. Good thread with great welding tech! Thanks. :D

Originally posted by jasonmt
How thick is the tube on the cage? If it is only 0.120" or less, Your 125 Hobart will be able to burn through just using solid filler material/tri mix sheild. If you don't get enough penetration or hit your duty limit cycle with solid filler/tri-mix change to CO2 and try that. After that if you still have problems change to a flux core. Too much penetration can make a weld bad (Undercut) just as easy as not enough penetration can. ALso make sure you are running it of a 20 Amp circuit breaker, wired with a least 12AWG copper to a 20 amp rated plug. It will make a world of difference.

Hmm.......Lot's of bullshit, no skills, no knowledge posts in this thread.

But also some good stuff. The ability to filter the crap out is the tough part.

Originally posted by KidJethro
Hmm.......Lot's of bullshit, no skills, no knowledge posts in this thread.

But also some good stuff. The ability to filter the crap out is the tough part.

ok seeing as you are such a fawking welding God, why dont you enlighten a novice like myself with your delightful wisdom as to what of the above is crap or not. or are you just content as to make little remarks that dont add to the thread or the knowledge base on this board?
Being as i dont know shit about welding and the info in this thread APEARS to be valid, why dont you tell me what is wrong info or shut the fawk up. :rolleyes:

Your recommended wire size is just a few clicks away!

Yes, run a 20A and yes rewire the outlet.

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Pretty cool little calculator there. Thanks

Originally posted by NoJoke
Your recommended wire size is just a few clicks away!

Yes, run a 20A and yes rewire the outlet.

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Originally posted by Roc Dog
Also, my welder only has about 8 feet or so of power cord. I need an extension cord. What is the longest one should go with this welder and what AWG should it be? Can it be bought at a hardware store or do you have to make it?


Use an extension cord that has 14ga. wire for lengths up to 50ft and 12ga. wire for 50ft-150ft. These can be bought at any hardware store.

Sweet. Thanks for the info. Just talked to the electrician who is doing my house yesterday and worked out a little under the table deal seeing as the house I am buying is a track home being built by Elliott Homes. He is going to run 3 (one already comes with the garage)- 20amp dedicated plugs and 1 - 220v dedicated plug in my garage. This house is being built so it is framed and just about ready for sheet rock. So extra he is adding 2 - 20amp dedicated plugs and 1 - 220v plug. He is charging me $170. Does that sound about right or is that me getting screwed? The main power he is coming off of is located in the garage and the 2 - 20amp plugs he is running are about 30 foot runs and the 220v is only about a 6 foot run.
Originally posted by Goat


Use an extension cord that has 14ga. wire for lengths up to 50ft and 12ga. wire for 50ft-150ft. These can be bought at any hardware store.

Originally posted by KidJethro
Hmm.......Lot's of bullshit, no skills, no knowledge posts in this thread.

But also some good stuff. The ability to filter the crap out is the tough part.

kinda like your average PBB 4link thread:D

well as long as your flippin your lips, why dont you secrete some of your bullshit, skills or knowledge??:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Goat
One thing that nobody mentioned is wire and it's appropriate amperage range. For .120 wall you want to run .030 wire. .035 is too big for your machine and .023 will result in undercut.

Gas-core wire is excellent stuff but most ppl don't realize it was developed to circumvent the low energy characteristics of short circuit mig welding. This type of wire is really meant for machines in the 210+ amp range.

Gas-core wire is an alternative to spray transfer mig welding.

at school we use a .45 FCAW wire setup with CO2, it runs at about 23volts and nearly 240-250 amps:eek:apparently in the industry it is used on thick metal like I beams and huge supports for roofing/trussing, etc??

also i run a .72 flux core wire, referred to as 232 or formerly core8 at similar v/amp settings. it is replacing(or has replaced) the majority of 7018 SMAW in bridges and skyscraper construction after the big earth quake in san fran in 89??

when i run a standard .35 solid wire with argon/CO2 i run any where between 15-19 volts depending on material thickness and the amps at about a 1:10 proprtion to the voltage....

i think the dual shield im referring to above is running hot enough to be spray transfer or maybe globular?? like you are referring to???

Originally posted by Roc Dog
Sweet. Thanks for the info. Just talked to the electrician who is doing my house yesterday and worked out a little under the table deal seeing as the house I am buying is a track home being built by Elliott Homes. He is going to run 3 (one already comes with the garage)- 20amp dedicated plugs and 1 - 220v dedicated plug in my garage. This house is being built so it is framed and just about ready for sheet rock. So extra he is adding 2 - 20amp dedicated plugs and 1 - 220v plug. He is charging me $170. Does that sound about right or is that me getting screwed? The main power he is coming off of is located in the garage and the 2 - 20amp plugs he is running are about 30 foot runs and the 220v is only about a 6 foot run.


You got yourself a deal.

I spent well over $200 running a sub panel myself so I could have the same thing you are getting.

Originally posted by Booger Weldz

i think the dual shield im referring to above is running hot enough to be spray transfer or maybe globular?? like you are referring to???

You can't weld using the spray transfer method with a FCAW wire but by the specs of the machine above, you should have no problem getting the machine to spray arc. With the configurations your running it's just globular...sorry. :flipoff2:

If you wanna mess around with spray transfer you need a bottle of 98% Argon/2% Oxygen, a machine at least capable of 200+ amps and some good ole .035 E70S-6.

You can get machines to spray with other gas mixes but you need at least 80% argon. Caution, these would be higher energy mixes so pay attention to the duty cycle and how hot the gun gets.

Originally posted by Roc Dog
Sweet. Thanks for the info. Just talked to the electrician who is doing my house yesterday and worked out a little under the table deal seeing as the house I am buying is a track home being built by Elliott Homes. He is going to run 3 (one already comes with the garage)- 20amp dedicated plugs and 1 - 220v dedicated plug in my garage. This house is being built so it is framed and just about ready for sheet rock. So extra he is adding 2 - 20amp dedicated plugs and 1 - 220v plug. He is charging me $170. Does that sound about right or is that me getting screwed? The main power he is coming off of is located in the garage and the 2 - 20amp plugs he is running are about 30 foot runs and the 220v is only about a 6 foot run.
That sounds pretty good. If you had an electrician come in afte the home was finished, he might do one 20a outlet for that price if he had to pull new wire. ;)

One suggestion: You may want to have him pull wire up to the ceiling or to another wall in the garage and just leave it be. Most codes only require 1 or 2 outlets, and that's not enough to have a grinder, a radio or fan, a sawzall, and ... you get the idea.

That way you just go buy an outlet, box, and face plate later on, put them in the wall, and connect the wire to it. :D

Originally posted by morpheus
fluxcore does get better penetration but in my experience if you've got a decent sized welder that's not a big issue. sure is nice not having to clean the flux off of welds when using gas. My vote is for gas ...

- jack

ditto! I'll go with gas whenever possible;)