Now, tell me why you would want to go IFS/IRS when this happens?

http://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v1/5/68/78/45656878lBhdgd_ph.jpg

That is Pat Gremilions rig and there is a pic somewhere of Randy Ellis with the same problem.
Less flex and more breakage, that must be the key to winning these events. :D

Seems kind of like they are backpeddling about 5 years with the technology here.

Linky no worky

yes it does

Ah maybe for you but for those of us that don't have your username and password cached it don't work.

My Opinion on IFS/IRS is that it COULD work. I just haven't seen it done really well yet. I just spent some time at Randy Ellis's shop, he built my new cage. I talked to him for a bit about the buggy, and he said it is more of an experiment than anything else. He likes it, but he built it to see how it would do, and show people that it could be done. That is his viewpoint.

- My viewpoint is that these rifs definitely need more flex. The problem i think is that people are using stock components. Randy's buggy has GM 1ton IFS centers and half-shafts. I believe that pat's rig has hummer stuff under it. The key to getting more flex is to get rid of the half-shafts. they are the limiting factor in the suspension. Using a double-CV driveshaft would be an easy but very expensive way to get more travel out of the suspension. However i belive that mounting the shafts as close as possible to horizontal is also important. On Randy's buggy, the shafts are angled down about 20 degrees at rest. That means only a few inches of downtravel are available.

My idea for IFS/IRS is this: 9" or D60 centers with driveflanges on the sides, then dual 1ton CV's from Jess at all 4 corners, then mog portal hubs. the mog hubs would make it easy to have good clearance, and mount the driveshafts closer to horizontal...

Just my mindless opinion though...

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I get the same thing :confused:

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Apache/1.3.14 Server at loco.webshots.com Port 80

Originally posted by Rerard
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Yep! :(

I think it's interesting that some of the same guys who ripped into me for running IFS, are now experimenting with it in a competition rig.

After I've finally thrown in the towel on rockcrawling an IFS truck and built something with straight axles.

Not to dredge up an old topic, but I think it goes to Ned Bacon's comments on "rock racing"... they're NOT rockcrawlers that Randy Ellis and Pat Gremillion are running with IFS/IRS... they're rock racers. I think we're seeing the convergence of Baja and ARCA (RCAA/UROC/ERoCC/whatever). Rockcrawling is getting faster (in competition, anyway), while Baja technology is being infused into it to cope with the higher speeds.

Faster = more exciting for fans
Excitement = bigger crowds
Venue accessibility (not in Baja) = bigger crowds
Bigger crowds = more promoter $$$

It's all business.

IFS/IRS is :rainbow: for rock crawling. Always has, always will be....

Scott, i think you are correct. However i must say that, at the RCAA Cedar City event a few weeks ago, i didn't see much rock racing. That is the only comp i have been to, and someone told me that the times they allow per obstacle have been increased. The avg time allowed per obstacle was about 10 mins. That is plenty of time to crawl around and take your time. There were certain spots where some momentum was necessary(big ledges, steep climbs, etc.) But there was no need to "race", and a lot of competitors were doing a very nice job of crawling everything.

Elf_Cruiser
My idea for IFS/IRS is this: 9" or D60 centers

Randy's centers are aluminum that is why he selected them he was trying to keep his weight down.

Well, you can get titanium 9" housings from Mark Williams, would that be cool?

Guys, Not to bash Pat ot Randy, both are very smart guys but the duners use Porsche 930 joints and get 30" of flex. I too read the article and then talked with a guy that builds duners and he showed me his buggy, the flex had had would make you sick and without the spring inplace you could pick up the spindle and tire combo with very little effort....It has got me thinking and the balance was sick, and talk about power.....500 hp Rotek(sp) and even a little pair of Nitro bottles for camo....no he wouldn't let me snap any pics due to the fact that he wasn't complete yet and thinks he's an artist.....


30" won't turn an axle sideways but is an axle that's sideways really that stable.....

Originally posted by elf_cruiser


My idea for IFS/IRS is this: 9" or D60 centers with driveflanges on the sides, then dual 1ton CV's from Jess at all 4 corners, then mog portal hubs. the mog hubs would make it easy to have good clearance, and mount the driveshafts closer to horizontal...

Just my mindless opinion though...

well i have a couple designs similar to this, but they were incased in a housing to make them a solid axle. The only problem is strength, and that becomes less of an issue when your vehicle weighs 2000lbs.

I'm with Lance on this one, solid axle is proven, and much less complicated.

I think that if they ever do perfect IFS on rockcrawlers (I say they cause I aint gonna dabble in it) I think it will be on the BIG budget rigs. If they do perfect it and they become the new bad ass thing, I hope they make them run in an IFS class so that I dont have to try and keep up.

I have enough probles getting shit like leafs springs to line up!

Originally posted by coyote
Porsche 930 joints

Junk......

I think that building an inependent suspension is beyond the means of the average builder. (Like me.) I'm sure that the components aren't any more expensive than any of the ones that we already use in our trucks, like d60 fronts and such, but the design of a competitive independent suspension takes fabrication skills and engineering degrees that the average joe simply does not have. I hope it never happens, but if independent rigs become the big cash cows, the average joe is not going to be able to compete, which I think, is one of the biggest attractions of rock crawling.

On the same hand, I am never against progress. So if indpendant is where things are going, then I guess the average joe just ahs to suffer. The one thing I hate to think about in our sport is the possibility that it could become like NASCAR, where only people with millions of $ in sponsorship can afford to compete. Makes me want to vomit.

J. J.

Originally posted by Lance


Junk...... simple and to the point i like that:D

Originally posted by Lance


Junk......


I guess that is why all us stupid desert racers use them. Over 30" of travel with 300-400hp without a failure in the Baja 1000. What are you talking about Lance? 930's have their place just like a Dana 60 does.

Originally posted by geargrinder



I guess that is why all us stupid desert racers use them. Over 30" of travel with 300-400hp without a failure in the Baja 1000. What are you talking about Lance? 930's have their place just like a Dana 60 does.

Yep, JUNK.... Last time I checked, we were talking about rock crawling, not desert racing. :rolleyes:

for those who cant get the link to show.... cut and paste into a browsers address bar.

Tried the cut and paste. Get the message that the page no longer exists or has moved. Anymore options?

On the same hand, I am never against progress. So if indpendant is where things are going, then I guess the average joe just ahs to suffer. The one thing I hate to think about in our sport is the possibility that it could become like NASCAR, where only people with millions of $ in sponsorship can afford to compete. Makes me want to vomit.
I'm with Patooyee on this one. I hope it doesn't get to the point that a $50,000 rig will be the one in the back of the pack because he doesn't have the "right stuff" he needs to be competitive.
The rockcrawling thing is just getting off it's feet here in the south and it is getting more popular exponentially. It's amazing how many more people are at each event. I will probably get my rig ready to compete for next year. Now is the time to get involved because it may not be too far in the future that the only way to get in to it will be with lots of sponsorship and deep pockets.
We are going to be watching you guys on the west coast. Everything that happens out there eventually trickles down to us.

what do you mean "eventually", you have a sammy on ROCKWELLS. Peeps out here swap in toyota axles into their sammy's, cause that is "beef". I put rockwells in my FJ cause i found em cheap, and i am just starting to realize what a rediculous beating these axles will take without breaking. I am trying to give you props for overbuilding your drivetrain...

Originally posted by Lance


Yep, JUNK.... Last time I checked, we were talking about rock crawling, not desert racing. :rolleyes:

I would have to say if they can withstand baja racing and the huge dynamic loads they see they can take rockcrawling without breaking a sweat.

I would have to say if they can withstand baja racing and the huge dynamic loads they see they can take rockcrawling without breaking a sweat.

Try again. Desert Race trucks with with 800 hp don't make anywhere near the torque at the axle that a rock crawler does! The torque multiplication of low crawler gears is impressive when you run the numbers.

Brook

hummers are11/4 ton and pat broke the cv joint what makes a 930 stronger or better .lance seems to know they are junk and i must agree with him on the nonuse of 930 cv or any ifs for rockcrawling i'm not just agreeing with him eather .:rolleyes:

Weasal, you have a point, but that is in a straight line. If you have seen a u-joint break, it usually happens when the tire is bound up and turned. Also, you keep saying that all these people are building ifs/irs rigs to compete in next year. Check again. Campbell has tried one, and will not use it on the trail. Doesn't like it one bit. Not as stable as his regular crawler. He is going to experiment some more and then go back to SA. I think that the fact that the top competitors are all going away from it like the plague, should say something. We'll just have to see how well Randy does overall this year. I don't think he'll get the performance he did in years past.

Erin

i wasn't gonna jump in here, but here's my take. I'm sure there is some way to build an independent suspension that can equal or outperform solid axles. The question is WHY? It's going to take a HUGE amount of engineering, fabrication, and $$$ just to equal the performance of solid axles, and then exponentially more to surpass that. Even with all of that, i don't see the potential that they can be THAT much better. I understand some of these guys have the shops, the skills, and the $$$ so they may as well mess around with it. I also think it would be a cool project and a fun toy. But, overall Lance hit it right on the head, it's junk. Now i'm sure there are plenty of suspension designs that are known or are yet to be invented that will kick the crap out of a SA rig, but independent suspensions are not one of those designs.

-Steve

willymutt, i didn't know that the campbell's had finished the IFS buggy. I saw it about 2 weeks ago, and it was not complete. Have they already tested it?? It looked really light. Randy says that his buggy is the lightest RCAA rig, and i would belive that, but the new campbell buggy looks close, and with the northstar V-8 it will certainly have a much better power/weight ratio than randy's.

So, we must analyze the probs with IFS/IRS, and see if they are solvable. Randy had the lowest score of the day on the B course in Cedar City, with -1 for the day. But, he broke 2 half-shafts on the A course the next day, and that basically put him out of the comp. So... is the independant design bad in terms of suspension, or is it just weak in terms of drivetrain?

Any thoughts on the idea of using dual 1350 CV's as half-shafts??

I just talked to Jason Paule, and he said that Shannon was not impressed with the stability of it when they picked it up with his forklift. He said that he can pick his buggies up to over 7' without it feeling like it will tip, but the IFS rig feels tippy at 5'. Just what I have been told about it.

Erin

I'm no engineer or fabricator, but here is my .02

at high speeds independant is fine because contact pressure (down force) does not have to be full time or even close to it.

at low speeds down force is required to maintain momentum.

without continous down force independant won't give the contact pressure needed for continued traction, but if you added hy\dro rams like Tracy Jordan Don Robbins, :D It just might work.

So build it with rear steer, independant suspension, single seat, light as hell, and bring out to the unlimited class.....now you might have it.

Rich

remember I dont know crap when it comes to designs, so don't flame to badly:D

Just to kick some shiznit...

I broke three 930 joints at Top Truck.

I broke two more at Indy a month or so later.

I broke one completely in half (case and all) in South Dakota.

This was with a relatively mild rig. 14" travel, 5500 pounds (heavy), 36's, stock Ford 5.0, and 123:1 crawl.

Now I have a straight axle, and I worry about breaking my D60.

I've been waiting for your post, Scott. :D
So what other rocket scientists out there think 930 joints are indestructable? :rolleyes:

I have seen first hand what the destruction of Scott's joints looked like in SD. That was awesome to see something like that broke. Sorry Scott, but it was cool. I say solid axle all the way until we have hovercrafts.

Erin

Erin,
I was just saying what Randy had told me when I emailed him. About everyone having a IFS buggy. Thanks for the other info.

And Lance :flipoff2: :D I never said they were indstructable ;)

I still think it would be hard to beat SA but I like playing in the other corner.

For what it's worth the broken hummer CV's on Pat's are due to lack of steering stops, or lack of good steering stops. You can't overangle any joint and expect it to live.....

Originally posted by Weasel

I still think it would be hard to beat SA but I like playing with little boys.

Well, isn't that interesting.

I was just relaying what I have heard. Didn't want you to look like a total retard.

Erin

Originally posted by Stephen
For what it's worth the broken hummer CV's on Pat's are due to lack of steering stops, or lack of good steering stops. You can't overangle any joint and expect it to live.....

Maybe it was already stressed to imminent failure, but when Pat broke, I could swear his wheels were straight, just trying to get up a ledge - tire spun a bit and grabbed - snap...

If you build it light, then maybe it will work - but for now I'd say the 930s snap just like the 297x u-joints - often. If you expect the CVs to live, you'll have to have a CTM or D60 equivalent CV.

The broken CV I saw was at full left lock, in Kremling. I was wondering how far it would turn and the guy that helped design a lot of it was just cringing next to me when he saw the tires turn that far.
It's all pretty new but I think the hummer stuff has a chance of standing up in a light rig if it's built right, like keeping it from going way to far in a turn. Hummers have their problems but not many people argue that the drivetrains are pretty tough. Drop a few thousand pounds and they should be usable. I guess we'll see.

Hummers have their problems but not many people argue that the drivetrains are pretty tough.
Ever notice that a Hummer half-shaft is nearly identical to a Chevy Cavalier? Hmmm....scary.

hummer axles (junk) i stoll this from lance .

Originally posted by willymutt


Well, isn't that interesting.

I was just relaying what I have heard. Didn't want you to look like a total retard.

Erin

hahah fawker. :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by 350Samurai

Ever notice that a Hummer half-shaft is nearly identical to a Chevy Cavalier? Hmmm....scary.

Ever notice that the geared hubs take 1/2 the stress off the 1/2 shafts?
SMACK

back into lurk mode.. I don't like Hummers anyway.

Heres my two cents....

First, I could care less whether IFS/IRS ever gets into Rock Crawling. It wasn't meant for that type of application. A custom buildup could owkr, but I do not think it will be ideal.

The 930 joint is a good joint. If you use it when it is the right size for the job. But using that joint in an overweight, overpowered, over geared application will have bad results. It is roughly the same strength as a 1350 U joint. The next size up from the 930 is the 934 joint. It is quite a bit stronger than the 930, and can acheive the same angles. This is the size that most of the more powerful buggies use in Baja. The new thing for the overpowered buggies is the Size 30 joint. It is nearly double the strength of a 934. Only drawback is weight and size. It is about 6 inches OD.

Most of hte rigs I have seen are using standard OEM shafts from road vehicles. They didn't think very hard about it obviously otherwise they would have build there own setup. OEM shafts are made for long life under "normal" conditions. They are not meant for the abuse of rock crawling.

Hummer shafts are nothing like a cavilier shaft. Two different suppliers adn two totally different designs.

In case anyone wants to know how I kow any of this, my last job was at GKN, the maker of the Hummer shafts, 930, 934 and Size 30;s. I worked in the Motorsport division. Now I still do the Motorsport, but for a different company. But we still supply North and South America with joints for the aftermarket. Every 930 and 934 as come through my work, present and past.

Any questions, just email me.

IFS/IRS + forced articulation = walking machine ... That all there really is to it. If your fully independent and you going to throw hydrolic rams on all four corners you going to have a damn walking machine.

So, it seems like all of the guys building these independent rigs are taking a conventional approach. I know this would take some serious engineering and it would probably look like frankentruck but what if you used a standard portal axle that was fixed solid to a chasis. Then you woul have to machine some custom reduction boxes so that the drive flange was on the back side of the reduction box. You would then have to come up with some custom long arms that were like 6' long. I'm probably not explaining it right (I'm bad at these sorts of things)

Originally posted by willymutt
I have seen first hand what the destruction of Scott's joints looked like in SD. That was awesome to see something like that broke. Sorry Scott, but it was cool. I say solid axle all the way until we have hovercrafts.

It was pretty impressive, wasn't it? Split that sucker right in half... and it wasn't even at lock when it went. It was drooped, but not past the stops, not past where it'd been before... just a combo of torque and angle, and neither was all that extreme.

The Porsche 930 joints are designed for a Porsche that doesn't see power until high RPM's. What breaks parts off-road is the high torque low frequency from large engines and extreme gearing. Also tires flying at speed, then landing... So I would agree with Lance, they are not for rock crawling.

As for independantly sprung wheels, I am all for it. Although I think the only way to make it work is to be able to force each wheel to move throughout its travel with a hydraulic ram or an airbag system. But this type of setup could really only be used for low speed crawling. It would be favorable on-road, but setting it up for that type of use could prove to be a nightmare.