C Rotating Jig/Axle Stand Idea

[ROXROES]

So, have C's to rotate on a 60, I've done 44's before. I have a pile of 4 or 5 inch OD x .250 wall tube I got for free. I need to build a stand so I can at least beat on it without it falling all over and squashing me. :laughing: Not big on heating stuff up red hot and changing the properties, and don't want to make the neighbors hate me anymore than they already do.

So I was thinking how much harder would it be to give myself a mechanical advantage. Have my buddies Dad machine me a post that drops thru the kingpin holes and build a fixture to locate the end of the bottle jack. At least preload it so it jumps easier when I schwack it.

I dunno, figured I'd toss it up for some input or some good ole pbb verbal abuse. :flipoff2:

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/CAD%20Stuff/jig.jpg
I know, the jack is "floating", this was enough to get the point across........

[Jerry Blair]

Willy Worthy did an article about this several years ago in FourWheeler magazine.

He set up a jig similar to yours but he left the knuckle attached to the axle "C" and used the spindle studs to attach his "lever". Then he manually twisted the "C" the desired number of degrees as indicated by a simple angle finder.

Your set up should work as well. I would make a third mount that keeps the pinion end of the axle from rotating.

[ROXROES]

Willy Worthy did an article about this several years ago in FourWheeler magazine.

He set up a jig similar to yours but he left the knuckle attached to the axle "C" and used the spindle studs to attach his "lever". Then he manually twisted the "C" the desired number of degrees as indicated by a simple angle finder.

Your set up should work as well. I would make a third mount that keeps the pinion end of the axle from rotating.

Interesting, did he use hydraulics and/or heat? I guess I would worry about it wanting to kick out since the knuckle could turn? Guess I wouldn't have to dismantle the axle that way! :D

I am either going to make a pinion support or just put temporary welds on the posts to the axle tube then grind them off...............

Currently trying to find his writeup...........................

[Jerry Blair]

I'm guessing the article was mid- to late-nineties.

I can picture the setup he had, but I can't remember the specifics. I believe he used a jack of some sort. I think the jack was on the ground and lifted UP on the lever. BUT>>>can't say for sure.

<that was a lot of help, wasn't it???:eek:>

[ROXROES]

Well to be honest you've possibly led me in a different direction. If I point the pinion straight down, then I can just build some kind of bottom to set the jack on to push straight up on the c's.

The axle doesn't need to be in the proper position to make sure you have the right degree, you just care about the difference between castor and pinion angle.

I searched and couldn't find the article, oh well.................

Thanks,
Chris

[Toddy]

Why not make a jig for the C's to be strait up and down and push the pinion where you need it? Then you just have to do it one time and they will both be the same.

Toddy

[ROXROES]

Why not make a jig for the C's to be strait up and down and push the pinion where you need it? Then you just have to do it one time and they will both be the same.

Toddy

The thought crossed my mind, but:
1) Not sure how much force I'm going to be applying
2) Not a firm location to press on thats nice and flat, don't know if I would want to press on the casting that hard

The plan is to build the frame tonight and get the axle on it. I have two rigs in the shop and no jack stands leftover. I don't know how many times I cursed this axle when the pinion would fall off the jackstand and it would flop sideways while I was grinding. :laughing:

[PTSchram]

Are you gonna cut the Cs loose from the tubes, or heat them up and turn them?

I've got a 60 on a table in the shop on jackstands andpieces of axle tubing holding the pinion in place-LOL :grin:

[ROXROES]

Are you gonna cut the Cs loose from the tubes, or heat them up and turn them?

I've got the c's ground so I can see a crack between them and the tube with a few outward schwacks with an 8 lb sledge.

Gonna try to rotate them without heat, with a little hydraulic assistance. Gonna finish dismantling the axle tomorrow and get started on the fixture to hold the axle.

Shop is a little too crowded to put the axle on the table. :D
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/Wills%20Tahoe/MiscFab136.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/Wills%20Tahoe/MiscFab135.jpg

[Brad]

Heres what we did, you could attach a bottle jack however you wanted. Why not make a plate for the diff cover bolts?

[ROXROES]

Heres what we did, you could attach a bottle jack however you wanted. Why not make a plate for the diff cover bolts?

Looks slick! I guess I could, but I was going to try to make this universal so I could use it on 60's and 44's. Put a couple welds on the stand legs to the axle tubes to hold it in place. Then jack up off the stand into the c to preload it. Hopefully make some progress tonight.............

[PTSchram]

One of the things I love about engineering and the internet, is the myriad different ways folks devise to meet a need!

Brad has a great idea, Chris has an equally good idea! Completely different approaches to the same task.

Right now, I have a 60 on the ground held up by two jackstands and a Rover axle on a welding table, again supported by jackstands and ratchet straps holding the axle on the table and a stub of an axle holding the pinion in position. As I'm planning on doing the same job Chris is working on, I'm watching intently and trying to decide how I want to do the same thing. Right now, I'm leaning toward jack-stand style cradles to support the axle, chain or pipe vise-style clamps to hold the tubes in position and a screw jack to set pinion angle.

One issue I'm trying to resolve right now is transferring pinion angles from a rolling chassis without body, assembled drivetrain, etc. I have a design spec for ride height and suspension travel but am not certain of how realistic it will be using coil springs rather than coil-overs which are too expesnive for this project (and my cheap bastard mindset and empty wallet).

As much as I've learned to hate the trial and error method, there are times where one must take their best guesstimates, apply them to the material at hand, weld it in place and see just how close their engineering estimates were to the real-world. It was quite a shock when I got into industry and found out that engineers dont' really know what's gonna happen, they just estimate as close as they can and everything is an experiment.

I can't wait to see what you end up with Crhis, keep the pics coming.

[ROXROES]

One issue I'm trying to resolve right now is transferring pinion angles from a rolling chassis without body, assembled drivetrain, etc. I have a design spec for ride height and suspension travel but am not certain of how realistic it will be using coil springs rather than coil-overs which are too expesnive for this project (and my cheap bastard mindset and empty wallet).

As much as I've learned to hate the trial and error method, there are times where one must take their best guesstimates, apply them to the material at hand, weld it in place and see just how close their engineering estimates were to the real-world. It was quite a shock when I got into industry and found out that engineers dont' really know what's gonna happen, they just estimate as close as they can and everything is an experiment.

I can't wait to see what you end up with Crhis, keep the pics coming.

PT,
If it works, your more than welcome to borrow it to use or bring your axle down one evening or weekend.

I understand your predicament, its hard to figure out where to aim the pinion without the t case in the rig. There is an extra set of these adjustable coil buckets we had made for my buddies truck under the bench. I'll ask him if they're available if you want? They worked slick to dial in the ride height.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/JonsZR2309.jpg

My buddy bought those 3 ton bottle jack floor jacks. Thinking about using them to push on the C, but wondering if I should just see if my buddy in South Bend is coming down for the weekend and have him pick me up a 20 ton HF to save on shipping.

Chris

[PTSchram]

Thanx, but in my case, I'll be cutting the Dana ends off and welding Rover outers on so I can retain all the hardware from the original truck to save costs and maintain standardization across the fleet.

W/R/T spring mounts, I really have a blank sheet of paper with this project. About the only things written in stone are that it will be a truck when I'm done!

I have an empty transmission case and a bare block to use for mock-up purposes, but all of my transfer cases are assembled and not quite as handy for throwing together to visualize what's going on. OTOH, the aluminium Rover block and die-cast transmission case are easy to throw around-gotta love a block that can easily be picked up by a single person without any stress or strain!

[ROXROES]

Well, I hope to get the stand done tomorrow, that is unless I host a beer pong party. :D

I'm totally digging my buddies kingpin wrench, I can pull shafts and whole outer assemblies as one easily. He ordered the hex stock, bent it, then sent it out for hardening. :grinpimp:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/MISC/MiscFab139.jpg
At least got a little start on the stand, yes its galvanized and was free. I'll gouge it where I'm going to weld and do so outside with a mask on. I'm going to put casters on it as my buddy recommended so I can scoot axles around the shop easily.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/MISC/MiscFab140.jpg

[chumly2071]

kind of stupid, but details on the jack stands? I've never seen one with a bottle jack built in...

[mnmstoy]

So how is the bottle jack going to change the degree if it is parallel to the floor. What I see happening the way you have it...is it's going to rip it right off and not turn them.
Then again I know nothing and just a outsider looking in.
Mike
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/CAD%20Stuff/jig.jpg

maybe if you also had one on the lower side opposite from the top one. I can see it helping you then. The rod that is down the middle (C) would have to have the ends made so they can swing or change angles while the jack is putting pressure on them. Yours appear to be a solid peace that attachés to the jack. I hope you understand what I am getting at.

[PTSchram]

kind of stupid, but details on the jack stands? I've never seen one with a bottle jack built in...

LOL, there was an ad for them in last Sunday's newspaper, called an all-in-one jack.

[ROXROES]

LOL, there was an ad for them in last Sunday's newspaper, called an all-in-one jack.

Too funny, Will got them from Menards which is where I'm figuring you saw the ad. They actually work pretty slick!

Here is the new plan for the jig, I have 1x2 solid bars that will set across the round tubes so I can adjust the position of the jackstand/bottle jack or 20 ton bottle jack, whichever I use. I may actually build some kind of cup retainer that holds the top of the bottle jack from kicking out that will be temporarily welded to the c.

Basically I want to leave one side of the c open, so I can impulse it with the sledge. Pretty sure it'll jump if I have the other side preloaded.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/MISC/jig2.jpg

[Big91RustyBucket]

You done Rotating my C's yet ? :flipoff2:

[ROXROES]

You done Rotating my C's yet ? :flipoff2:

Keep it up, and I'll take your truck in with the rest of the scrap tomorrow morning! :flipoff2: :laughing:

[ROXROES]

Well finished the stand today, and got the one c rotated about 4 degrees in about 20 minutes. Going to get a new bottle for my butane torch, think a little bit of heat will make it even better. Just gotta get some castors for this thing next week and weld them on.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/MISC/MiscFab146.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/MISC/MiscFab143.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/MISC/MiscFab145.jpg

Philip, I'm thinking a tandem axle front suspension would be awesome on the 10! :flipoff2:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/MISC/MiscFab147.jpg

[Big91RustyBucket]

Todd Says I should make it a Dually ... :flipoff2:

[PTSchram]

And you wonder why you're not married any more! I know that my wife wouldn't put up with me doing that sort of stuff in the attached garage! I'm in enough trouble for having client's trucks in the front driveway where she has to avoid them in the morning as she leaves for work.

Otherwise, that looks like a nice setup that works really well for what you're doing. Why are you using Butane for your heat versus propane of acetylene? Usually, the only palce I see butane used is with nitrous for industrial glass work.

[ROXROES]

And you wonder why you're not married any more! I know that my wife wouldn't put up with me doing that sort of stuff in the attached garage! I'm in enough trouble for having client's trucks in the front driveway where she has to avoid them in the morning as she leaves for work.

Otherwise, that looks like a nice setup that works really well for what you're doing. Why are you using Butane for your heat versus propane of acetylene? Usually, the only palce I see butane used is with nitrous for industrial glass work.

Yah sometimes I wonder if I'm perturbing the neighbors. But they all think the stuff is pretty cool and like seeing the finished product. I bought the house a month after the divorce finalized so she never got to experience putting up with "this". :laughing: But she knew I was into fab so she knew if we had bought a house together it would have been part of the plan. Nice not having to worry about getting yelled at though. :D

Sorry about the brainfart, I don't know why I said butane. I used my propane torch and heated up the other side for about 5-10 minutes. After a few schwacks I was done. I am VERY happy with the jig's performance.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/MISC/MiscFab149.jpg

[sawzallsammy]

why not add some u-bolts to help hold the axle in place? sould be easy to do with your setup. no need to weld the axle to the bracket then

[ROXROES]

why not add some u-bolts to help hold the axle in place? sould be easy to do with your setup. no need to weld the axle to the bracket then

You could try that, but you have to realize I was putting a force of roughly 3 tons 4-5 inches out from the center of the tube (theoretically would be significantly more than 3 tons I was applying). I didn't feel like rigging anything up to support the pinion from rotating around. U bolts would spin if thats all that was holding them, no doubt about it.


After a few minutes of grinding you can never tell that either the axle or stand has ever been welded. :D

[Mh4Runner]

So, is the housing still perfectly straight after this?

[ROXROES]

So, is the housing still perfectly straight after this?

Really all the housing is doing is holding the two ends together, it does have force on it, but not enough to distort it IMHO. The welds on the tubes take the grunt of the force keeping it from rotating.

Straight as far as my eyes can tell. EDIT Found better pics...........
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/BIG%2091/BIG91002.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/snopro007/BIG%2091/BIG91003.jpg

[Big91RustyBucket]

So, is the housing still perfectly straight after this?


It's in my truck and seems straight as much as the eye can see. When trucks all done and wheeling I will sure know.