I'm putting a D44 from a Waggy under my 88 toy, full width. I was wondering if some of you would be so kind as to sanity check my outboarding brackets before I weld to the frame. The plan is to put a gusset to the top of the frame on each side of the plate.

I don't have a red star yet, but you can get pics here...

http://www.tabbal.net/Outboard1.jpg
http://www.tabbal.net/Outboard2.jpg
http://www.tabbal.net/Outboard3.jpg
http://www.tabbal.net/Outboard4.jpg


Any input on the design would be helpfull.

1. Your basic outboard design will work fine, with gussets. It's real similar to my second set up. I had no problems with it.

2. You will need to add gussets to the front and back of your shackle hanger (tube with bushings). If not, it will rip off of the plate.

3. Re-cut your shackles so that the top of the shackle covers the bushings. Your current setup will dig into the bushings and prematurely wear them. It will also look better too. I traced a line using a hole saw to round the ends of mine.

4. Make sure you use a sanding disc to clean off all that paint and surface rust where you will be welding the outboards onto.

5. Support the BBS, the advice that you will get from this one post alone will save you more than $20 down the road.

Good luck

Do a search for outboarding springs. This has been discussed a lot. I've done it differantly than most, and I have had zero problems thus far.

FWIW If I were to do it again I would use a D44 out of a Chevy to get the stock width spring pearches and a bitchin turning radious ;)

Originally posted by Wilson
1. Your basic outboard design will work fine, with gussets. It's real similar to my second set up. I had no problems with it.

Glad to hear I'm not on crack or inhaled too much shielding gas. ;) That was my primary concern.

2. You will need to add gussets to the front and back of your shackle hanger (tube with bushings). If not, it will rip off of the plate.

I thought of that, but wasn't sure. Thanks, I'll add them. Will flat bar from the frame plate to the top of the tube work alright?

3. Re-cut your shackles so that the top of the shackle covers the bushings. Your current setup will dig into the bushings and prematurely wear them. It will also look better too. I traced a line using a hole saw to round the ends of mine.

Hmm.. didn't think of that one. I cut those to test for clearance. I guess I won't do the other ones the same way. Thanks again Wilson!


4. Make sure you use a sanding disc to clean off all that paint and surface rust where you will be welding the outboards onto.

Yep. I don't leave paint and rust where I weld. It just doesn't work as well for some reason. ;)

5. Support the BBS, the advice that you will get from this one post alone will save you more than $20 down the road.


I will be doing so today. I've saved more than $20 because of info from this BBS and it's something I've been meaning to get done. Best 4x4 BBS I've found.

Bones:

I did search, I posted to get info on my particular design to make sure I'm not doing something that will not work. Seemed like the other designs I saw, but I figgure it only takes a second for a pro to spot something I might not see.

I saw your bent shackles, look like they would work well. I like your rig too, I may yet steal ideas from you too. ;) Oh, and the Waggy axle was available. It would be nice to have used the stock perch width though. Next time, if there is one, I'll have to look for a Chevy. At the time, I didn't realize there was a D44 that I could do that with. I'd allready rebuilt this one before discovering that little tidbit.

Originally posted by ttabbal
I saw your bent shackles, look like they would work well. I like your rig too, I may yet steal ideas from you too. ;) Oh, and the Waggy axle was available. It would be nice to have used the stock perch width though. Next time, if there is one, I'll have to look for a Chevy. At the time, I didn't realize there was a D44 that I could do that with. I'd allready rebuilt this one before discovering that little tidbit. [/B]
I hear ya there. My axle was cheap and there, so I ran with it. I can always swap my junk to a narrowed Chevy axle if I find one cheap someday. Buy then who knows what I will want for axles though :D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ttabbal



I thought of that, but wasn't sure. Thanks, I'll add them. Will flat bar from the frame plate to the top of the tube work alright?
[/B][QUOTE]


It would probably work, but I would cut two pieces of 2x4" box, using a speed square so that the gusset is completely boxed in and you end up with a clean looking finish, you also get more weld-contact this way.

-Welcome as a paying member comrade... red stars rule!

Originally posted by Wilson

It would probably work, but I would cut two pieces of 2x4" box, using a speed square so that the gusset is completely boxed in and you end up with a clean looking finish, you also get more weld-contact this way.


I'm not sure where you're going with that. For some reason I'm not seeing how 2x4" box comes into play. I'm probably just being dense this late at night. Could you explain what you mean here? A pic would help a ton if you have one. I'd love to get more weld area out of it than the flat bar would give me if I can.


-Welcome as a paying member comrade... red stars rule!

Wow.. Lance works fast. I didn't expect to be set up this soon. Thanks for the welcome. Go Lance! :flipoff2:

Here's my best try..last time I made a drawing, it bombed horribly. No digi cam so I can't walk out and take a pic of mine.

A: This shows a piece of 2x4 box tubing, the dotted line indicates a cut mark. Layout your lines so that the 2" portion of the box tubing becomes the hypoteneuse of the triangle that you're cutting.

B: This shows you the reason for cutting it this way, by having the 2" section be the hypoteneuse, when in place it boxes off your mount completely. All that is visible is a solid wedge gusset.

C: This shows both gussets in place, relative to your hanger, you may need a larger plate for your outboard.

D: This shows the welding surface-area. With this gusset, it spreads out your beads, instead of running 2 beads on opposite sides of a piece of 1/4" plate, these beads are now 2" part. This will also decrease the likelihood of running your weld too hot and having it potentially fail. You also gain 2 more sections of 2" weld at the top and base of the gusset.


-Hopefully this helped,
Jeremy

Okay, so I cut a 90* angle in the tube like a diamond shape to get a very interesting gusset. Cool idea, I wouldn't have thought of that. So, in my case, I would cut about 1" in so my triangle would be 1x1x2. That would be about the right height to get about to the top of my shackle hanger. It's a 1" pipe with a 1/4" plate welded under it. Reading your comment, I'm a little concerned about the plate now though, that weld got REALLY hot. The peice was about 50% red hot. Did I compromise the weld/metal? I'm not used to such small workpeices. I could always start them over, I don't have much time or money invested into this design. How about metal thickness? I was going to use 3/16" for that bottom plate. I can use 1/4" though. I'm not sure how much is overkill as thin as the frame itself is.

And how did you cut that? I'm not sure how I would. I guess I could use a miter box and hacksaw. If I put it in sideways, I might be able to get my cut-off saw to cut like that. It has an angle setting. Things I have to cut with: 14" cut-off/chop saw, 3" high speed air cutter, cutting discs for 4.5" grinder, hacksaw, oxy/acteylene torch, sawsall.

Is this what you mean by "speed square"? I've got one, I can see how I could use it to mark out the right angles. Doesn't look like it would help much for the cutting though. ;)

http://www.dajosales.com/speedsquarwi.html

Thanks for answering my newbie questions. I had a lot more info to draw on for designing the front spring hanger.

That is what I meant by speed square, but I actually found it a little easier to use a basic "L" shaped square, are cheap. With theh "L" square, place the 90 degree angle where you want it, and you can use the dual rulers to get the measurements you need.
To cut the gusset, I used an oxy-acetylene torch and cleaned up the edges with a grinder, I wasn't too picky about it becasue the edges will all be welded over anyways.

I used 1/4" plate or metal for everything, consistency is good when welding for even heat disipation. It sounds to me as if you may have been welding a little hot. As you weld, you should be able to see the weld cooling (no longer glowing) maybe an inch past the location you are at.

I would make the gusset bigger than 1x1x2, probably personal pereference. You're stuck with one of the 1" dimensions, becasue you used a small bushing. I used bushings that slide into 1.75x.120 wall tubing (procomp part #6494???, I've posted it before) I would run the gusset down the frame at least 2-3 inches, mine is 3 inches. I was also able to get rid of my frame outboards by using F150 rear springs. They are long enough to line up where the frame widens out. I could have run a sleeve through the frame, but chose not to.

TACK WELD EVERYTHING FIRST and check to make sure that the suspension articulates without binding or locking out a shackle, against the frame. I failed to do this the first time and as soon as the truck moved, a shackle would lock out into the frame. If this ahppens, it is real easy to grind the tack welds off, and move the shackle hanger back a little bit. Also check your castor measurement with a floating angle finder by placing it on top of one of the flat top knuckles, with teh weight of teh vehicle resting on teh springs and axle. It should be back about 6 degrees. Any variances over 5 degrees from this measurement will likely casue a wobble, but mine is running fine at 10 degrees.

How do you like the F150s? I've got some 44044s, but I've been thinking that a longer spring would be a whole lot eaiser to work with. I was wondering what was out there. I have a pair of chevies I was thinking to put in the rear too. I was concerned that the 44044s would give me too much lift in the front though. Any clues what years to look for? I wouldn't mind getting a tape and heading to the yard for a little searching. How long are those F150s anyway? I'm wondering where they hit the frame on the back side.

why not take a peice of 2x3 box, about 5" long, use a 1-5/8" hole saw to cut a hole right in the middle of the tube, then cut the tube in half lengthwise and you get 2 channel shaped mounting plates with half rounds, one for each side. set the bushing in, weld, walla. this is what i did and it works great, i didnt outboard so i set them right under the frame, to outboard simply add them to your existing plates, you could even drill a few holes and have an adjustable shackle angle, eh?? ;)

The F150's kick ass, they are super flexy. I ran pro comp 2.5" wranglers before and these are much better. They are about 58" in length, mine hit the frame where it begins to widen out under the cab. I am also running chevy's in the rear, with a wrangler buggie and some laterally folding shackles. The ford springs came in late 70's to mid 80's F150's, and broncos, the short side is 19" from eye to center pin. I was able to move the front axle forward about 4 inches. I had to rotate the steering box down a bit to clear the tie rod and dl with my hi steer setup. It also saves stress on the sector shaft, by flattening out the swing of the pitman arm. I kept the factory top mount, turned the box downward, marked the locations for the new holes, drilled and sleeved them, then bolted the box back in place. If you do this, be sure to triple pass the welds on that stock mount. the damage was probably already started, but I broke all of the factory welds for this top mount. I rewelded it in place and triple pass welded as much of it as I could. With this setup, I can park on a 39" tire. I still have all of the clamps tightened down on my springs. My rear shocks are limiting my travel by about 10" right now too. the front 9012's are also maxed.

Originally posted by RHINO
why not take a peice of 2x3 box, about 5" long, use a 1-5/8" hole saw to cut a hole right in the middle of the tube, then cut the tube in half lengthwise and you get 2 channel shaped mounting plates with half rounds, one for each side. set the bushing in, weld, walla. you could even drill a few holes and have an adjustable shackle angle, eh?? ;)

I did this for my first setup and it is a good way to go too. I ended up boxing in the open channels, just to make it look cleaner, my method just deals away with having to drill holes and make the extra angle cuts that I dis the first time. The second time I did my swap, my hangers went under the frame, in a place where it was angled. I had to offset the gussets a bit on the shackle hanger tube, but it looks fine.

FWIW If I were to do it again I would use a D44 out of a Chevy to get the stock width spring pearches and a bitchin turning radious ;) [/B]

What chevys had d44 with the spring perches at the same width as yota ones??

Originally posted by MOFUGRA


What chevys had d44 with the spring perches at the same width as yota ones??
ErikB's site (http://home.off-road.com/~bibelheimer/sas.html#width) will give you a 27.5"-29 depending on how you chop it down.

Originally posted by Wilson
The F150's kick ass, they are super flexy. I ran pro comp 2.5" wranglers before and these are much better. They are about 58" in length, mine hit the frame where it begins to widen out under the cab. I am also running chevy's in the rear, with a wrangler buggie and some laterally folding shackles. The ford springs came in late 70's to mid 80's F150's, and broncos, the short side is 19" from eye to center pin. I was able to move the front axle forward about 4 inches. I had to rotate the steering box down a bit to clear the tie rod and dl with my hi steer setup. It also saves stress on the sector shaft, by flattening out the swing of the pitman arm. I kept the factory top mount, turned the box downward, marked the locations for the new holes, drilled and sleeved them, then bolted the box back in place. If you do this, be sure to triple pass the welds on that stock mount. the damage was probably already started, but I broke all of the factory welds for this top mount. I rewelded it in place and triple pass welded as much of it as I could. With this setup, I can park on a 39" tire. I still have all of the clamps tightened down on my springs. My rear shocks are limiting my travel by about 10" right now too. the front 9012's are also maxed.

Interesting. I'll have to see if I can find any F150s and check them out. 58" is about a foot longer than the 44044s. That would put them in a good spot IIRC. On those chevies, how do you like the buggies? I don't think I'll do that, but I'm curious about them. I'm not sure how I'll mount them, actually. I haven't gotten there yet. What's this folding shackle give you over the double shackle that seems to be favored on here?

The steering box mount on mine is allready broken off. The previous owner got in an accident and it twisted the sector shaft and broke the top mount off the frame. He hit the wheel on a guardrail. The other holes look ok, so I was thinking to just weld that top mount back on. If I can reduce the stress on the shaft by leveling it, I'll have to look into it. I would like to move it around a little anyway to clear the hydro assist ports I've got on the new box. Right now they are right on a body mount. Hard to connect a line to them.

I'm not running high-steer. I don't have flat-tops. Is there another place I can measure caster? I was going to put the angle meter on top of the balljoint or steering arm to get an approximate angle. I haven't welded the perches on for the SOA, so I can adjust caster at that point. My steering plan for now is a low crossover setup w/ hydro assist from west texas offroad. I couldn't find flat-tops when I was building my axle. Is this something I'm going to regret and should fix now? Seems everyone started selling knuckles after I had my axle all put together. :rolleyes:

You're running 39s? On a 44? Or do you have 60s? I can't remember your axle setup. And how much fender did you cut off the fit those big tires? Doesn't seem like the springs alone would be enough lift for those things.

Thanks!

I found some F150s, one set on an F150 of unknown year, and one on a 79 Bronco. They measure 3" wide and about 56"-58" long. It was a wierd angle to measure them at so I couldn't get an exact measurement on the length. I didn't check the lengths to the center pin. Does that sound like what you've got there Wilson?

They had a bunch of springs that were about the same length but 2.5" wide. Much more common, even late model Explorers had them.

He isn't running 39s. Read it again... he said he "can park on a 39 inch tire".