Well I finally got around to mocking some shit up on this piece. I wired in the MSD BTM (boost timing master) and Apexi VAFC ahead of time.

The BTM basically retards the timing per lbs of boost. This combats detonation.

The VAFC is a Honda unit by design. It stands for VTEC Air Fuel Controller. This unit does a few things. It can be used to increase or decrease fuel on a load and rpm basis. It will also intecept the MAP signal to the computer and hide boost so the ECU doesn't think there is positive pressure. In its ability to increase or decrease fuel it allows you to use larger injectors and then decrease the duty cycle to inject less fuel back to a stock level.

Here is the BTM mounted in the truck. It intercepts the coil signal and adapts it.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo003.jpg

Here is where I spliced into the ECU for the air fuel controller. You need to tap onto power, ground, TPS, RPM and splice the MAP wire. You can barely tell its there. All connections are soldered.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo004.jpg

Here are the BTM adjustment knob and the VAFC in the Jeep.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo008.jpg

Here's the turbo mounted to the up pipe. I need to make a stout bracket for it but this just about where its going to live.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo005.jpg

This is the front section of the up pipe. I originally had the pipe to the driver's side but moved it since it didn't look like it would fit my 99 stocker too.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo006.jpg

Here is my short radius bend since chassisshop.com screwed me on my mandrel donut bend. I just radius cut one. This is just tacked together like everything else. It completely clears the control arm mount and driveshaft when compressed.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo007.jpg

Bump for another turbo project:smokin:

Its nice to see more of these popping up. Cheers for going against the odds and doing something different!

Bump for another turbo project:smokin:

Its nice to see more of these popping up. Cheers for going against the odds and doing something different!

And on an XJ...Good shit.

What kind of turbo is that? New or Junkyard?

What kind of turbo is that? New or Junkyard?

Its a new chinese ebay job. .63/.60 60 trim. If it lasts 6 months I'd be happy.

the exact same one I have on mine. Put a 8 lb waste gate and your good. I hope your going to install a 3" exhaust? My 2.5" is too small. Expect boost to start around 1900-2000 RPM. You will see5-6lbs of boost at 2400-2500 and maintain a solid 6 till 4300 RPM. At that time boost will increase to a full 7.5-8 lbs at 4400 till redline. Thats how mine is behaving. I feel If I go to a 3" exhaust, boost should increase more at the lower RPM range. Just some food for thought.

More tech on this VFAC controller and if I can plug it into my system and use it? Im still eying the Split second one, but I am always open to other options.

looks cool. look at making a heatshield between the turbo and ECU. it looks pretty close. my buddy has his turbo mounted 3 inches from his efans and the blades are starting to melt. granted this is on a FWD car, but still..

looks cool. look at making a heatshield between the turbo and ECU. it looks pretty close. my buddy has his turbo mounted 3 inches from his efans and the blades are starting to melt. granted this is on a FWD car, but still..

I was just discussing that exact thing on PM's. Very good point.

the exact same one I have on mine. Put a 8 lb waste gate and your good. I hope your going to install a 3" exhaust? My 2.5" is too small. Expect boost to start around 1900-2000 RPM. You will see5-6lbs of boost at 2400-2500 and maintain a solid 6 till 4300 RPM. At that time boost will increase to a full 7.5-8 lbs at 4400 till redline. Thats how mine is behaving. I feel If I go to a 3" exhaust, boost should increase more at the lower RPM range. Just some food for thought.

More tech on this VFAC controller and if I can plug it into my system and use it? Im still eying the Split second one, but I am always open to other options.

Sounds to me that you have a problem. That turbo will be full spool at 8 psi on a 1.8 liter by 4300. Are you sure your wastegate is completely sealed when closed or you BOV isn't leaking by? I certainly hope that isnt the case. I was thinking full 8 lbs by 2200 or so.

The AFC is just a more adjustable option than an adjustable map sensor. It will not pull timing like the split second unit will but my BTM will do that.

Sounds to me that you have a problem. That turbo will be full spool at 8 psi on a 1.8 liter by 4300. Are you sure your wastegate is completely sealed when closed or you BOV isn't leaking by? I certainly hope that isnt the case. I was thinking full 8 lbs by 2200 or so.

The AFC is just a more adjustable option than an adjustable map sensor. It will not pull timing like the split second unit will but my BTM will do that.

Hmmm.... I know what to check and look into. I will update my thread with this info. I'll PM you for more guidance if needed.

the exact same one I have on mine. Put a 8 lb waste gate and your good. I hope your going to install a 3" exhaust? My 2.5" is too small. Expect boost to start around 1900-2000 RPM. You will see5-6lbs of boost at 2400-2500 and maintain a solid 6 till 4300 RPM. At that time boost will increase to a full 7.5-8 lbs at 4400 till redline. Thats how mine is behaving. I feel If I go to a 3" exhaust, boost should increase more at the lower RPM range. Just some food for thought.

More tech on this VFAC controller and if I can plug it into my system and use it? Im still eying the Split second one, but I am always open to other options.

The VFAC is the same device, or rather does the same job, as the SS FTC-1.

Since you have a timing retard already - the PSC-1 is all you need.

Anyhow, different name, same device.

The VFAC is the same device, or rather does the same job, as the SS FTC-1.

Since you have a timing retard already - the PSC-1 is all you need.

Anyhow, different name, same device.

Actually from what I read the FTC-1 will adjust timing as well. An AFC will not do that. But yes the PSC-1 will do with the BTM.

Actually from what I read the FTC-1 will adjust timing as well. An AFC will not do that. But yes the PSC-1 will do with the BTM.

Hence the need for your timing retard unit.

Its great seeing some good tech on this subject:smokin: I know that turbo's have been done many years ago, But its time to do systems utilizing the latest tech to get the perfect performance that would make big corporations wimper at the sight of what WE are doing!:smokin:

Hence the need for your timing retard unit.

No, what I meant was the fuel and ignition are fully adjustable. There is no need for a BTM with the FTC. You can retard the timing in the ignition map.

Nice to see another XJ doing the turbo. Your uppipe looks very similar to mine and is pretty much the best way I could figure doing it. Keep us posted on your progress.

Nice to see another XJ doing the turbo. Your uppipe looks very similar to mine and is pretty much the best way I could figure doing it. Keep us posted on your progress.

I think its the only way to do it. My DP is going back down the driver's side. I can't wrap mine around like yours I don't think. My rig isnt nearly the size yours is and Im trying to build the kit so I can jig it up and remake it for my 99 stocker.

Little update. Here is the bracket I made for the turbo. Simple but strong. The angle is 1/4 and is mounted by the 2 bolts that hold the fuel line bracket.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo002.jpg

36 lbs injectors I bought from www.southbayfuelinjectors.com They are bosch style and are one for one direct fit. $140.99 shipped
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo0010.jpg

Overall shot of the aluminum charge pipe I welded the blow off valve into. Its a simple RFL knock off from ebay. The blow off valve was $24.94 shipped from Ebay. The tubing was left over from another turbo kit. The couplers are from www.siliconeintakes.com they were $44.97 shipped.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo001.jpg

Just need to finish the downpipe, tap the oil pan, run the oil lines and install the gauges. Then its finish work like heat shielding and wrapping the pipes.

If you can, I would bring another support mount like off the pwr steering bracket to the turbo to give just a bit more support. Maybe something in the vertical support position. I just cant imagine the forces on those two bolts under any jarring hits. I.E: going over a bumby dirt road and accidently catching a little air under the tires(like only and inch or two). But over all, looks killer and really professional.:smokin:

I have been following all the turbo threads with interest. My question is to the turbos not running inter coolers. I would have a fear of detination or am I wrong. What terrain do you wheel?

I have been following all the turbo threads with interest. My question is to the turbos not running inter coolers. I would have a fear of detination or am I wrong. What terrain do you wheel?

Detonation can be caused by many factors - but the root cause is always the same - the presence of differential heat conditions in the combustion chamber causing pre-ignition of the air/fuel mixture.

There are many ways to fight it. Cam profiles designed to scavenge exhaust quickly, special engine coolant to eliminate hot spots, using fuel itself as a combustion coolant, using water for the same, dropping compression ratio, retarding the timing, ceramic coating piston tops, valve coatings, colder plugs, etc etc.

Intercoolers are one way - simply by cooling the intake charge.

It's been my experience that detonation is not an issue on the ODB1 4.0L under 8lbs of boost.

The ODB2 engines are another story.

Little update. Here is the bracket I made for the turbo. Simple but strong. The angle is 1/4 and is mounted by the 2 bolts that hold the fuel line bracket.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo002.jpg

That bracket looks familiar.:D

[QUOTE=jpfrk2001;8881311]If you can, I would bring another support mount like off the pwr steering bracket to the turbo to give just a bit more support. Maybe something in the vertical support position. I just cant imagine the forces on those two bolts under any jarring hits. I.E: going over a bumby dirt road and accidently catching a little air under the tires(like only and inch or two). But over all, looks killer and really professional.:smokin:

Mine is mounted the EXACT same way and it is quite stable. You are also getting support from the uppipe vertically and it doesn't move much at all.

Good to hear on the brackets. Just hard to tell from pics.

being a trackbar equipped front axle, your entire front suspension moves to the passenger side on compression.

your UCA and/or axle yoke looks like it gonna eat your up-pipe when the suspension cycles.

did you pull the front coils & build this piping with the suspension sitting on the stops...?

Looking good.

Looking good.

I need some o' that there Amsoil.

being a trackbar equipped front axle, your entire front suspension moves to the passenger side on compression.

your UCA and/or axle yoke looks like it gonna eat your up-pipe when the suspension cycles.

did you pull the front coils & build this piping with the suspension sitting on the stops...?

Jim - Check out picture #5 from the top of the page and it gives you a better view of the relationship between the upper arm and the uppipe. There won't be any interference as it sits.

Jim - Check out picture #5 from the top of the page and it gives you a better view of the relationship between the upper arm and the uppipe. There won't be any interference as it sits.

I jacked it up on that side as high as I could. Mine will compress more than I could get it to go but the up pipe isnt even remotely close. I tucked it in close to the pan. The downpipe is another story. This is where my set up differs greatly from Shane's. I just finished the DP and it seems to fit well and will clear the driveshaft at full compression.

Up pipe and downpipe all welded and wrapped up tight. 2 O2 bungs. One for the stocker and one for my wideband.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo.jpg

Up pipe and downpipe all welded and wrapped up tight. 2 O2 bungs. One for the stocker and one for my wideband.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/cherokeeturbo.jpg

Looks nice. The only issue with that wrap is corrosion.

Looks nice. The only issue with that wrap is corrosion.

depending on location in the world. But you do have a valid point with possible trapped moisture.

It also looks like the same stuff I used on mine.

I did use the DEI silicone spray on the wrap. It will cut down on the rot. Now that I made it I could just jig it up and make another so if it rots I'll make another one.

Gauges, oil lines, and some heat deflection and I can fire it up.

Post up a start up vid!

anyone have any downloadable psc-1 fuel tunes they would like to give to me? mine runs rich at idle then lean at wot and detonates.

oh and i have the same turbo also on my obd2 tj. it hits full boost at 2200rpm which is 8 psi.

anyone have any downloadable psc-1 fuel tunes they would like to give to me? mine runs rich at idle then lean at wot and detonates.

I thought the PSC-1 doesn't control timing, it just does fuel? Timing is why it detonates.

If you have time will you throw together a cost sheet so others can see about what this will run for a DIY project?

Thanks,
Charlie

If you have time will you throw together a cost sheet so others can see about what this will run for a DIY project?

Thanks,
Charlie

No hijack, but mine cost me just under $3000 in parts and I did all the work my self.

what with the wrap? From what I know the heat kept by the wrap will destroy the tubes?

My build cost total should be under $1k. The wrap can lessen the life of the pipes but an engine fire will lessen the life of the Jeep.

P.S. I think my new wideband doesnt work......I have an email into PLX.

Fuckin wideband is junk. Now I can't tune it unless I borrow one. This sucks. I wanted to get it going tomorrow.

ITS ALIVE!!! I took it around the block. Runs well for no tuning done. My new wideband was already shipped out to replace the defect. It overboosted the first time I briefly pulled it. I adjusted the wastegate and its good now. Not boosting it again till I can get the wideband in and I dont have to time today to borrow the one I was going to use. Here it is.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/th_cherokeeturbovids002.jpg (http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/my%20jeep/?action=view&current=cherokeeturbovids002.flv)

THat is awsome. Im looking forward to the video of it tearing of the road. I tried to check mine today, but ran into some other little problems and said f-it and went home.

Looking goood!!

Build totals are shipped to my door.


Turbo .63/.60 T3/T04E Ebay $185 New
MSD BTM Shop I work for. $60 New
Apexi VAFC D-series.org classifieds $85 Used
PLX SM-AFR/DM5 wideband www.needfulltoyz.com $242 New
AEM air filter Ebay $24 New
Gauge pod Ebay $14 New
Boost gauge Ebay $14 New
Blow off valve Ebay $25 New
Piping and V-band http://store.racing-solutions.org/ $112.50 New
Silicone couplers www.siliconeintakes.com $45 New
36# injectors www.southbayfuelinjectors.com $141 Reman
Oil lines and fittings local $55 New
Aluminum charge pipe Left over I had Free New
T3 flange Weirtech $10 New
O2 bungs I use jam nuts $5 New
DEI header wrap Shop I work for. Free New
Heat shield Homedepot sheet aluminum $10 New
Misc crap like oil pan gasket, oil, clamps, zip ties, crimp connector, solder, Argon, filler rod. Figure about $ 75

Total=$1027

Build totals are shipped to my door.


Turbo .63/.60 T3/T04E Ebay $185 New
MSD BTM Shop I work for. $60 New
Apexi VAFC D-series.org classifieds $85 Used
PLX SM-AFR/DM5 wideband www.needfulltoyz.com $242 New
AEM air filter Ebay $24 New
Gauge pod Ebay $14 New
Boost gauge Ebay $14 New
Blow off valve Ebay $25 New
Piping and V-band http://store.racing-solutions.org/ $112.50 New
Silicone couplers www.siliconeintakes.com $45 New
36# injectors www.southbayfuelinjectors.com $141 Reman
Oil lines and fittings local $55 New
Aluminum charge pipe Left over I had Free New
T3 flange Weirtech $10 New
O2 bungs I use jam nuts $5 New
DEI header wrap Shop I work for. Free New
Heat shield Homedepot sheet aluminum $10 New
Misc crap like oil pan gasket, oil, clamps, zip ties, crimp connector, solder, Argon, filler rod. Figure about $ 75

Total=$1027

Wow. Good for you!

I was originally going to run one of the Ebay turbos but then decided on a higher end model that would have some warranty and support. I ended up around $1800 but that's with an external wastegate and all of my ceramic coating costs worked in. Now you just need to get it on the trail and see how much fun it is.:D

I was originally going to run one of the Ebay turbos but then decided on a higher end model that would have some warranty and support. I ended up around $1800 but that's with an external wastegate and all of my ceramic coating costs worked in. Now you just need to get it on the trail and see how much fun it is.:D


Nov. 9th it hits the rocks.

Quick update. The VAFC will not work the way I need it to with the stock Jeep MAP sensor. The VAFC and the new injectors are coming out and the stock injectors, FMU, and pump are going in.

What about going to a GM 2 BAR MAP. I would definatly keep the injectors in there. All I did on mine was injectors, FPR, 2 BAR MAP and mine works great. Remember as mentioned before, there is the programmable PSC-1, 2 BAR MAP that Corey uses. I hear He is getting great results as well.

I know you see it as working well but by using a 2 bar you are advancing the hell out of your timing by cutting the voltage down from the MAP. Im just going to FMU it for now with my pump and BTM.

I have no intercooler and no meth set up yet so the timing bothers me.

What fuel pressure are you running at? What does your AFR look like in vacuum and in boost. I was thinking about getting an adjustable FPR. A universal type and making that work.

I can pick up a 2 bar map from the shop tomorrow but with my 36# injectors I think it will still flood badly. Do you get a check engine light from the 2 bar?

I'm pretty much done helping at this point - he just figured out that we might know what we are talking about.

Help? lol the fact that you are telling me to run a 2 bar map, 30 lbs'ers and an adjustable FPR is nice. It doesnt address my main question of timing. Plus the fact 30 injectors at 43 psi and 80 percent duty cycle only are good for about 240 hp at the flywheel.


If you want to help, explain to me how it works, not that it just does.

So the ecu MAP signal is 5 volt reference. My stock map sensor is at 4.875 volts key on, engine off. How does the 2 bar map allow for the ecu to output more voltage? It can't if the ECM is tapped out at 5 volts. The 2 bar maps cuts the reference voltage down in order to increase resolution. So with a 2 bar map key on engine off your voltage is what? Is it 2.5 volts? 3 volts?

Are you running 2 map sensors? Ill go back and reread your build thread.

Corey I greatly respect your ability and your build. It is very impressive. I'm not trying to be difficult be I don't see how it works the way you say it does.

I just read the entire PSC-1 listing on Split Second's website. Your help is no longer needed. You are advancing your timing. Wether you agree or not is not important. Its a fact. If you are familiar with fuel and ignition maps or have ever used a fuel stand alone EMS you would know I am right. Talk to a tuner that tunes cars. He will explain to you that the map voltage is directly related to position in the ignition map. At the recommened settings listed for the PSC its clear at 4.875 where the ECU knows 0 your PSC will adapt the voltage to 2.5 that will tell the ECM you are about 10" vacuum (estimate) therefore increasing your timing.

Here is an ignition map from a ROM editor I use. Look at the timing at 0.3 at 1000rpm and then look back at the timing at 11.16 at 1000rpm. If you clearly understand what you are looking at and Im sure you do you will see that while driving with your foot in it as you are transitioning into boost you are already adding at least 12 degrees of timing. This is for a different car but its the same principal.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/cromepic.jpg

Im glad your truck works well for you. We will agree to disagree.

Well, I'm glad you have it all figured out then. Congratulations!

For the record, and for anyone else reading this - this CSaddict guy is basically full of shit.

Later.

Actually you don't even fully understand engine management. The info you are providing people with this 2 bar, 30# and adjustable FPR is pure crap. Anyone who blindly accepts what you are telling them will end up damaging something. Anyone can look up how a map sensor works and its relation to timing and fuel.


P.S. if anyone thinks what I am saying is crap can google my sceen name. You will see that I have been building turbo kits and tuning cars for years.

Common sense wins over your bullshit.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/map_sensors.htm

If any of you guys are wondering more about how the V-Afc ( or S-afc, basiclly the samething, just the "V" has an rpm based output trigger built in) works, you can just search "AFC hack" on some of the honda forums or at homemadeturbo.com

I did a turbo set-up on my 89 civic about 6 years ago. Had $820 in everything including the motor.

Assuming the cherokee has the same size/bar map sensor that hondas do, you can run upto 12psi ( give or take, mine ran 13.5psi without issue ). Very simple. Double the size of your stock injectors ( cherokees are 19LBS. I believe ). Then set the AFC to "-40" all the way across the rpm band from start to finish, then... Let it eat !!!

We were going to do something like this on my old 290K mile 87 XJ, but I desided selling it for $1000 was better than spending $1000 to blow it up and get $200 for it :laughing:

You can get an alcoy injection kit from devilsown for like $320. I ran one in my 430whp 550TQ SRT4. It lets you get away with a lot and really drops the intake temps+ adds octane. My SRT4 with a lot of boost would see 210+ degrees on the IAT ( intake air temp ) with the stock intercooler. Then I added alcoy and it dropped it to about 145degrees. Then I added an intercooler upgrade which dropped it to 90degrees without alcoy and below Abundant temps with the alcoy !!! I saw 73degree IATs on a 87 degree day with 24.5Psi !!!

Anyway, cool build, I'll check in you see how its going from time to time...

Timing advances as it would normally, not in some radical fashion..

I haven't read the entire "discussion", but it is true that the "AFC hack" advances the timing b/c its seeing some much "vaccum". The MSD BTM will help with that, but prob. not completely nullify it. Its just something you have live with if your going to run that type of EMS. And its not limited to the AFC hack ( or the V-AFC ). All those "piggy backs" fool the map sensor, which makes the ECU think its got serous vaccum, so it advances the electronic timing.

Dailing back the dizzy can also help with the timing issue. I'd try and find the right combo of dizzy timing and MSD BTM settings.

The rising rate fuel presure regulators are another cheap way ( its what the first vortech superchargers for EFI mustangs used ), but it lets the AFR jump all over the place. Its either lean on the bottom and rich up top or ( more commonly ) rich on the bottom and lean up top. It also limits your boost due to the limits of your fuel system since it rises the fuel presure per PSI. Most RRFPR's use a 12psi/1psi ratio. 1psi of boost equals 12psi of fuel presure. At 10psi, that's 120psi+ your stock fuel presure. Odvously, your fuel system can't keep up with that.

Ahhh, man.... I got into jeeps to get away from all that, hahaha. That being said, my SRT4 ran a S-AFC for fuel maniagement ( with 72LBS injectors ).

Skittle all good info. I assume you know me from HMT. (fabrication moderator)The Jeep map unfortunatly is not capable of reading boost like the Honda. The AFC doesn't have a sensor setting capable of matching the Jeep map voltage, which is a shame. I just sold the one I had in my truck. It will be running on the T-rex pump and FMU tomorrow. Stock injectors are 21's

If was going to do it cheap then, the RRFPR is the only way to go. Its not all that bad, just have to keep the boost down.

I assumed the XJ used 19LBS. since all the XJ guys told me to upgrade to newer version III mustang injectors from a 4.6L for better milage and cleaner running engine ( via the improved spray pattern ). My XJ was old Renix stuff though, it would prob. run 30psi of boost and not give a crap :laughing: Got TPS ? Got crank sensor ? Then your renix will run :grinpimp:

CSaddict - I guess that those of us running with just a 2-bar MAP and injectors shouldn't be running our Jeeps because of the timing problem? I have repeadetly beat on mine since the turbo install and have had NO issues with timing. I check my plugs after every trip and I show NO signs of detonation. In fact, my plugs look better now in terms of color than they did before the turbo. In your expert opinion, does this indicate that the 2-bar MAP doesn't work properly?

CSaddict - I guess that those of us running with just a 2-bar MAP and injectors shouldn't be running our Jeeps because of the timing problem? I have repeadetly beat on mine since the turbo install and have had NO issues with timing. I check my plugs after every trip and I show NO signs of detonation. In fact, my plugs look better now in terms of color than they did before the turbo. In your expert opinion, does this indicate that the 2-bar MAP doesn't work properly?

Don't waste your time with this ricer Shane. He's the expert - but the guys with Jeeps that have already been turbocharged and are sustainable know nothing.

just wondering what does the map sensor do with timing i thought it was for fuel injection and the ignition ran off a knock sensor and a crank position sensor. I know little about boost but safely ran 15 psi in a saab 900. They run 8 stock. I didn't upgrade much involving the fuel injection but had a vac advance boost retard disy on it. by the way want to turbo my jeep and got a t25 sitting in the garage.:D

just wondering what does the map sensor do with timing i thought it was for fuel injection and the ignition ran off a knock sensor and a crank position sensor. I know little about boost but safely ran 15 psi in a saab 900. They run 8 stock. I didn't upgrade much involving the fuel injection but had a vac advance boost retard disy on it. by the way want to turbo my jeep and got a t25 sitting in the garage.:D

Don't get your ideas from this thread then. Jeeps aren't Hondas.

okay i was asking a tech based question not anything about hondas i have never touched a honda so i know nothing about them.

okay i was asking a tech based question not anything about hondas i have never touched a honda so i know nothing about them.

Thats my point - this CSaddict is some kind of Honda tuner. Big fucking deal.

so my original question was doesn't the map sensor control fuel not timing like a mass airflow sensor does or am i wrong on that?

so my original question was doesn't the map sensor control fuel not timing like a mass airflow sensor does or am i wrong on that?

Of course it is also part of the ECU "circuit" that advances timing - it has to in order to maintain engine efficiency in NA engines as vacuum drops. It's just not an issue is all (for what we are doing with the 4.0L), and it's not a huge amount anyhow.

We've (myself, xtremexj, Jpfrk2001, others) already proven that all that is necessary to boost an ODB1 4.0L up to 8lbs is an OEM 2 bar GM MAP and larger injectors. I run a programmable 2-Bar MAP, but it's not completely necessary.

A 2-bar MAP changes the numerical spread of voltages that the ECU sees - it "widens" it - and therefore it actually advances the timing less than a stock MAP would.

CSaddict isn't the first ricer to try and re-invent the wheel with these engines - but in the end the proof of who knows what is what, is in the fact that we all have working systems. Does he?

okay so the map sensor works like a vac advance on a older motors like saab and ford. oh and csaddict is an idiot

okay so the map sensor works like a vac advance on a older motors like saab and ford. oh and csaddict is an idiot

Good analogy - but with a 2-bar MAP the amount it advances changes over a single bar MAP. The ECU still sees the same voltage range, but it changes what the voltage is at a given engine "load" - in order to advance less (with the boost). To advance the timing to maximum factory advance, the 2-bar needs to actually see boost.

I don't know if he's an idiot - but he should stick to Hondas.

Makes sense to me. I have meet thousands of rices and they all spend too much money on stuff they don't need. I work at the emissions place here in colorado and every honda that is messed with fails but supercharged mustang pass all day long. My point is why argue with something that work.

Makes sense to me. I have meet thousands of rices and they all spend too much money on stuff they don't need. I work at the emissions place here in colorado and every honda that is messed with fails but supercharged mustang pass all day long. My point is why argue with something that work.

Thats my point as well.

Fucking ricers. I got some speeding tickets last year in my Juggy on 40" Boggers - raced a SRT-4 and won.

not everybody in a honda is a 'ricer' :shaking: there are some pretty decent/incredibly smart people in the tuner world. granted its like 1 to 5 ratio of smart people to idiots :laughing:


theres a lot of good info to be had from some of the honda forums. honda-tech.com was a good one, but they changed their forum and its a cluster fuck right now.



but to get back on track, have you thought about going with megasquirt on your engine? its a diy engine management system thats supposedly pretty awesome. I plan on converting my jeep to it when I loose the tbi in favor of tuned port.


for the record, I have a turbo'd/swapped del sol thats been going strong for like 80k miles.

Its nice to see all the sheep. Learn how a MAP sensor works. I never said you can't run your trucks the way you have them. Im sure they are eating up the timing. I actually just asked you to explain it to me. You can't. You don't even understand it. Im a ricer? Hmm I build turbo kits for cars that make 4 digit power. Your ignorance is amazing.

Because it works the way you have it doesn't make it right. What's even scarier is that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Read your map voltage, then read an ignition map. Moron.

I never said you can't run your trucks the way you have them.

I dont get it. Can they or cant they?




The info you are providing people with this 2 bar, 30# and adjustable FPR is pure crap. Anyone who blindly accepts what you are telling them will end up damaging something.

A few post above you just said people will damage their motors with this method.

But these guys are running and havnt blown up.

Whats the deal?

Its nice to see all the sheep. Learn how a MAP sensor works. I never said you can't run your trucks the way you have them. Im sure they are eating up the timing. I actually just asked you to explain it to me. You can't. You don't even understand it. Im a ricer? Hmm I build turbo kits for cars that make 4 digit power. Your ignorance is amazing.

Because it works the way you have it doesn't make it right. What's even scarier is that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Read your map voltage, then read an ignition map. Moron.

Got rice?

The thing is - we understand MAP sensors very well, we're just too lazy to explain this to a newbie - like you. It's such a simple concept that it's not worth the typing power to be honest, especially in the hardcore section.

You build power for Honda cars? Are you sure you didn't gain your credibility on ricer web forums?

On one forum it lists your rides as a Honda sedan and a fairly stock Cherokee. Why don't you post up some pics and video of your bad-ass turbo XJ wheeling for us Dave - maybe some full throttle climbs up loose terrain?

Didn't think so.

Got rice?
we're just too lazy to explain this to a newbie - like you. It's such a simple concept that it's not worth the typing power to be honest


Do you even know what "Rice" means? Or do you just use it as a broad sweeping term to fit whatever circumstance you feel it needs to?

This is typical bullshit from someone who's running a nowhere argument, so why not take the time to square your shit away and provide some actual content to this supposedly bogus tech you're referring to at this point in the thread. If you've got it, use it. That's what this site is for.


Feel free to make a lot of loud noises and insult me and all, as expected...but maybe add some real insight on the tech in the process as well, as you were doing before.

i want to see a pic of one of your 4 digit horsepower cars please amuse me. i can think of a hand full of asia cars that can achive that kind of power. rwhp not flywheel power. This is a 4x4 forum take your fast and the curious attitude some where else.

i want to see a pic of one of your 4 digit horsepower cars please amuse me. i can think of a hand full of asia cars that can achive that kind of power. rwhp not flywheel power. This is a 4x4 forum take your fast and the curious attitude some where else.


Hey asshole, add something helpful or climb back in your hole.

70 Camaro sbc with twins. Made in the 1200 range on the engine dyno. Will go 8's through the mufflers this year. Is this ricey enough for you? The majority of my work now is domestics.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/000_1311.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f380/CSaddict/000_1310.jpg


Corey where did I state I had some hardcore rig? Divert to the rest of my Jeep because your arguement has no validity.

Do you even know what "Rice" means? Or do you just use it as a broad sweeping term to fit whatever circumstance you feel it needs to?

This is typical bullshit from someone who's running a nowhere argument, so why not take the time to square your shit away and provide some actual content to this supposedly bogus tech you're referring to at this point in the thread. If you've got it, use it. That's what this site is for.


Feel free to make a lot of loud noises and insult me and all, as expected...but maybe add some real insight on the tech in the process as well, as you were doing before.

CS isn't able to explain exactly why he believes that all the engines running the way myself and others recommend will "blow up". Just that they will.

The truth is - if timing advances while boost grows (and detonation is not an issue AND the a/f ratio is correct) power levels increase. This is the way mine runs.

As for being sheep - hardly. Some of us (myself included) have been experimenting with FA on Jeep engines for some years. We know what works.

okay you just talked honda this honda that i figured thats all you were into. That motor there i can see being a 1000-1200 motor. i just wanted you to prove it. since all we herd was your talk. i retract my ricer comments about you.

CS isn't able to explain exactly why he believes that all the engines running the way myself and others recommend will "blow up". Just that they will.

The truth is - if timing advances while boost grows (and detonation is not an issue AND the a/f ratio is correct) power levels increase. This is the way mine runs.

As for being sheep - hardly. Some of us (myself included) have been experimenting with FA on Jeep engines for some years. We know what works.

Corey, lets start over. This all stemmed from me saying that cutting map voltage increases timing and you saying it doesn't. My point, I guess, was Shane's truck, JeepFreek, and your truck run well the way you have them. I was trying to understand how this worked and if anyone checked total timing on a dyno? Or does the truck just take the timing and is fine with it? I have been into tuning cars, foreign and domestic for quite a while. If the Jeep ECM timing is not effected by the MAP sensor and I could be shown that, I guess that was all I was asking. There is no need for either of us to get all revved up and insult one another. I am sorry if I offended you.

Lets forget all the shit and make this more productive. Does anyone boosted have a dyno sheet with air fuel? That would help out. I would like to see one. Do you three all run the 32lbs injectors that Corey runs?

Corey, lets start over. This all stemmed from me saying that cutting map voltage increases timing and you saying it doesn't. My point, I guess, was Shane's truck, JeepFreek, and your truck run well the way you have them. I was trying to understand how this worked and if anyone checked total timing on a dyno? Or does the truck just take the timing and is fine with it? I have been into tuning cars, foreign and domestic for quite a while. If the Jeep ECM timing is not effected by the MAP sensor and I could be shown that, I guess that was all I was asking. There is no need for either of us to get all revved up and insult one another. I am sorry if I offended you.

Lets forget all the shit and make this more productive. Does anyone boosted have a dyno sheet with air fuel? That would help out. I would like to see one. Do you three all run the 32lbs injectors that Corey runs?

Fine - works for me.

I don't have a dyno sheet no, however I can tell you that I run at 12:1 in the first few moments of maximum boost at 12 lbs. The computer "fights" back after the few 2-3 seconds once I reach maximum boost, and then settles the AF down at about 13.5:1 (note this is with a huge shot of water + methanol). I run it at 12 lbs boost sometimes close to 5 minutes, on long hill climbs on the way to mountain trails around here. I use a log-able wideband 02 sensor, and pull runs on the street to get my tunes.

Yes, the MAP does advance timing - I don't think I ever said it didn't - but once the 2 Bar MAP is used the effect is much much less - due to the voltage spread.

It's just not an issue. The ODB1 Jeeps like yours and mine are just fine like this. The ODB2 Jeeps however are an ugly can of uncunted worms - and I'm still unsure how to get them to stop detonating.

Great!! With that said if I used my 36lbs'ers with an adjustable 2 bar the timing would be negligible. So it will advance a bit but not enough to detonate with good gas I'm assuming. That is all I ever wanted to know. Thank you.

We recently had an OBDII XJ with some bolt on at the shop for a dyno tune using a Unichip system. I wasnt there for it but Mike the owner tuned it and said the software was pretty decent and he "thinks" he remembers a boost option in it. It was fuel and ignition tuneable.

Great!! With that said if I used my 36lbs'ers with an adjustable 2 bar the timing would be negligible. So it will advance a bit but not enough to detonate with good gas I'm assuming. That is all I ever wanted to know. Thank you.

We recently had an OBDII XJ with some bolt on at the shop for a dyno tune using a Unichip system. I wasnt there for it but Mike the owner tuned it and said the software was pretty decent and he "thinks" he remembers a boost option in it. It was fuel and ignition tuneable.

The Unichip seems to be a bit of a crap shoot. Unfortunately, they are pretty guarded about the end user being able to tune at will. They want to sell shop level tuning kits - and they are big bucks.

Mike didnt mention jumping through any hoops with it. He said it was pretty easy to work with. Ill ask him for some details on it tomorrow.

The main issue I think you could run into is idle and low speed issues with the 36lbs injectors. Corey and I talked about this at length and didn't think they could be trimmed far enough back in order to run properly at low rpm. I am using the 30s and they are perfect. Corey is able to fatten his 32s up with the PSC1 and the meth so he is able to run a smaller injector and make the same power as a larger one.

Yeah, that was my concern. I think I can trim back the fuel pressure. They should still have a decent spray pattern till about 30ish psi. Technically the injectors are 36#s @ 43.5 psi. My 95 only runs 39 psi from what I read so they are actually spraying at a 32.5 ish rate now.

I currently have a Walbro GSL392 pump and an FMU on duty which is more than enough fuel. I have been bleeding it off and its still 10.5 in boost. I may get a lower ratio from the shop. The FTC1 looks like the best bet for me if I want to use the injectors I have.

Shane once you get the wideband in and make a hard pull let me know where you are at please. I can sell the 36's and get some 30's if your afr's are comfortable. Are you bumping fuel pressure up at all?