Ok dudes, need some SERIOUS help here. (And apoligies that this is going to be a book)

My buddy has a 95 YJ, 2.5l, SYE. We did an SOA, and put a D60 in the rear of it last year.
We took it offroad twice, and both times he noticed that his shifter levers would move literally several inches back and forth. I never noticed it, cause I wasn't with him, but he said on doing any kind of hill climbing, it would really vibrate.

So, we never really thought much of it, and continued on our way. About two months later, he was coming up to my house and had a catastrophic driveshaft failure. The driveshaft
came apart at the slip, destroyed a u-joint, etc, all just driving it on the road.

Ok, so now we realize that we have a serious problem. We get it back to his house, and start trying to analyze what the problem is. First, we think we smoked the pinion, so we take the rear end out, check the gears, pinion, everything. A-ok.

Next, we think maybe it's his tranny mount. We replace it, it's not "bad", but it's not perfect.

Next, we replace the motor mounts, one was bad. Same problem.

Next, we notice that it looks like his output shaft on his t-case is "bent" (it seemed to wobble a little bit when it was in gear, no driveshaft). So, in goes a new shaft. Same problem

Next, we have the driveshaft rebalanced, same problem.

So, long story short. It would appear that it is a vibration coming from the cv-joint, and it almost looks like the angle on the cv joint is too severe? We put shims in the rear end to bring the pinion up, but that didn't help either.

Yea, I know there's no trac bar in it, we've got it sitting in his house, just waiting to put it on.

Anyway, here are a couple of pics of the whole assembly. Do the angles look ok? Anything look out of the ordinary?

Thanks for the help, his Jeep has basically been down since January and he's getting a little frustrated.

Out


http://www.indyjeepers.com/rich/10-sml.jpg

http://www.indyjeepers.com/rich/13-sml.jpg

http://www.indyjeepers.com/rich/18-sml.jpg

Just from eyeballing it, it looks like the pinion is too high and could stand to be dropped back a few degrees or so. What was it? (thinking).... Uhhhhhh 1-3 degrees difference is acceptable, I believe..

I was gonna mention a motor mount, but you already said they were checked

Axle wrap problem maybe, I don't see anything mounted to prevent it....

Remeber with out a anti wrap bar your going to get at least 3 degrees for wrap from teh starting gate. Plus your pinon will rotate up 2 degrees

Why is the yoke extended so far off the t-case? I thought the slip yoke elminator mated it to the tailcone housing..

I would say try reversing your shims so it lowers your pinon angle and try lowering your t-case to help with the angle at your t-case.

Judging by the pictures you are binding the CV, In fact it almost looks like its bound in that picture.

.

That angle is not too severe. Trust me mines worse. Although an anti-wrap bar is great it's really not necessary with the 2.5L. The initial torque of the motor is so small it pretty much can't wrap springs, I've tried.

MM are OK, Tranny mount is OK, T-case shaft is OK. Does look like the pinion is a bit high but that would just wear out joints real fast. I don't see it causing this eneormous bucking. If you transmission mount was bad in conjunction w/ a motor mount then I'd say you'd get that vibe (that's what caused mine).

Is there any way it could be the t-case input is off. Causing the whole t-case to vibrate and shake the shifters?

We tried lowering the t-case, same problem.

Something that I forgot to mention, when we took the old 'destroyed' driveshaft off, the area around the u-joints (the cv part) had a bunch of knicks and stuff on it where it looked like the u-joint was actually hitting it.

Same with the pinion. The pinion nut was actually really boogered up, like the u-joint had been contacting it somehow. We actually had to file the nut down to be able to get a socket on it.

It's acting like the cv joint itself is binding up. There is not alot of clearance (maybe paper width) between the yoke and the cv.

As far as the anti wrap, no, there's nothing on there now. But, like I said, I don't think that's the problem. Just simply driving it at idle speed, with no gas on the peddle, you can hear a clunk, clunk, clunk like the driveshaft is binding somehow.

It's starting to piss me off, and it's not even mine!

Originally posted by bigdude
That angle is not too severe. Trust me mines worse. Although an anti-wrap bar is great it's really not necessary with the 2.5L. The initial torque of the motor is so small it pretty much can't wrap springs, I've tried.

MM are OK, Tranny mount is OK, T-case shaft is OK. Does look like the pinion is a bit high but that would just wear out joints real fast. I don't see it causing this eneormous bucking. If you transmission mount was bad in conjunction w/ a motor mount then I'd say you'd get that vibe (that's what caused mine).

Is there any way it could be the t-case input is off. Causing the whole t-case to vibrate and shake the shifters?

Ok, now the shifters no longer vibrate, nothing vibrates, except for this clunking clunking going on. Read above post. Oh yea, and we have put a new SYE in it, with all new pieces.

This is just frustrating.


:(

Well, it's definitely binding up, and lowering the pinion will only make things worse at the front because it will make the DS angle slightly steeper than it already is...

Does it make the noise even when coasting, or just pulling out? Maybe look underneath and have him pull out slowly, so you can pinpoint where the noise is coming from (Although I think you already know :D )

Maybe some raised motor mounts will help, because lifting the engine up front will ease the angle some... (Does anyone make raised mounts for 4 banger YJ's??)...

Originally posted by Welby
(Does anyone make raised mounts for 4 banger YJ's??)...

Time for some tech-

Using 4.0 mounts in a 2.5L will provide roughly 3/4" of motor lift with minimal modification to fit the (a couple washers on the passenger side).

Using 4.0 1" lift mounts provide 1.5" to 1.75" lift on a 2.5L with the same modification.

I use a 4.0 mount on the drivers side and a 1" lift 4.0 mount on the passenger side. This allowed me to get rid of the break prone aluminum spacer that is stock under the 2.5L passenger side mount. Overall this set-up gained me about 3/4"-1" lift, helping my drive-line angles, and allowing me to get rid of that aluminum spacer that used to break.

You mentioned you had the drive line balanced, but have you rebuilt the CV? I have worse angles than that and have had to rebuild my cv;s a couple times, but never had the problems you describe. Bigdude might be onto something with the motor lift

Are you using some sort of adapter U-joint on the back of the CV? It looks like the caps are huge comapred to the ones on the front of the CV. Did it come that way? Where did you get the driveline from?

He bought a brand new driveshaft, when he replaced his SYE the first time. I don't think that the driveshaft has 300 feet on it. :D

Oldjeep, no, no adapter. It's a "skyjacker" SYE kit, whatever that means. Probably made by JB Conversions? I think that he got the "SKyjacker kit" from Leon Rosser this last time, the first time from 4 Wheel Drive hardware.

Keith, no, haven't rebuilt it. Like I said, it's only got 300 feet on it, and it's a brand new driveshaft.

I'm wondering if it's not the following.

He bought a "kit" for a 95, blah, blah, blah, with the kit designed for a D35. The pinion on a 60 I think is about 3" longer. Which would mean he would have more of an angle because of the lesser distance.

But, let me throw this out. If we take bigdudes advice and put the MM lift on it, wouldn't it be the same (relatively) as rotating the pinion up a bit? I'm just trying to figure out a way to avoid spending any more money than we already have, before we have a definate fix. If we rotate the pinion up via shims (which we already have and it didn't fix it) that would be the same as lifting the motor up.

I'm thinking that the cv is binding, that's the problem. But I don't want to have him order a 'high angle driveline' from jess without being sure. :)

What a quandry......


Any other ideas?

The shifter movement is fixed? what was it? (i have a similar problem, well annoyance poly motor mounts and tranny mounts might fix)

The CV Joint, if you over extended the joint you probably tore the grease seal in the CV. It DOES make a thunk or click noise if you did. Get your CV rebuilt and see if the problem goes away.

Whats your CV angle? My 1350 CV runs at 22-23 degrees and is "ok" but at the outer limits of its operating range. What is yours running at?

Originally posted by twaldher
The shifter movement is fixed? what was it? (i have a similar problem, well annoyance poly motor mounts and tranny mounts might fix)

The CV Joint, if you over extended the joint you probably tore the grease seal in the CV. It DOES make a thunk or click noise if you did. Get your CV rebuilt and see if the problem goes away.

Whats your CV angle? My 1350 CV runs at 22-23 degrees and is "ok" but at the outer limits of its operating range. What is yours running at?

I don't know what it is. Like I said, this isn't my Jeep, but it's my best friends.

Yea, it's fixed. He did the new tranny mount and poly MM's.

What would be the best way to measure all of the angles? We could at least eliminate that? Anyone else?

Let me throw this into the works....

When we first had the Jeep running, it was fine. Drove it 200 miles to go wheelin with no vibes at all.

3 months later, we get this. (It's an offroad rig). So, I'm wondering if the springs settled, thus causing the angle problem?

Originally posted by IndyCJ


I don't know what it is. Like I said, this isn't my Jeep, but it's my best friends.

Yea, it's fixed. He did the new tranny mount and poly MM's.

What would be the best way to measure all of the angles? We could at least eliminate that? Anyone else?

I just set my angle finder on the driveline, got the angle, then also set it on the side of the pinion yoke and got that angle. So I knew my pinion was set at 1* below the output shaft.

If the angle is to great on the CV you can pop the grease seal and cause the ball/socket in the CV joint itself to slide in and out just a little causing a clicking or maybe even the thunk noise you described. (we need that international dictionary of what a thunk vs. click is. :p)

When I had too much angle on my CV it chattered like mad and I could tell it was binding.

Rotating the pinion up will decrease the angle on the CV but maybe not by enough to fix the problem. Also it'll add that funky anlge to the diff. joint which could cause it to chatter.

If the springs had settled it would help the binding problem because they would be less lift. I don't think that's it.

To check nd see if a MM lift would help just drop the t-case some. You can do that easily with washers just for a temporary test. He can also make a low profile tranny mount to help angle the output even more.

Originally posted by bigdude

To check nd see if a MM lift would help just drop the t-case some. You can do that easily with washers just for a temporary test. He can also make a low profile tranny mount to help angle the output even more.

But, if you lower the t-case, you are going to create more of an angle, like welby said. We already tried that with a t-case lowering kit that he had sitting around.

Didnt he already say the CV was binding? There is the problem.. If you have a paper thin clearence between the yoke and the CV its binding on idle or acceleration because the pinon will rotate up 2 degrees no matter what engine you have in htere.

Fix the drive line angle either by motor mount or pointing the pig down some.

REverse your shims in the rear and see if that helps with the clunkcing..

Originally posted by IndyCJ


But, if you lower the t-case, you are going to create more of an angle, like welby said. We already tried that with a t-case lowering kit that he had sitting around.

No, lowering the pinion will create more of an angle up front on the shaft. Lowering the T-case will help to lessen it :D

IMO, adjusting the pinion down will not help. A combo of raised motor mounts and a slight T-case drop will help down the angle alot. After that, then you can adjust your pinion to 1-3 degrees below the shaft...

If ya want to be a cheap bastard you can make a MM lift for YJ's with 2.5's with some 1x2 tubing, a couple longer bolts, and a little bit of time. The 1" does make a big difference.

So, general consensus.

I'll try to get the angles first, but.

1. Lower the pinion a tad.
2. Lower the t-case
3. Raise the motor

What about one of Jess's d-shafts. Try the above first and see if we can get rid of it that way?

Originally posted by IndyCJ
What about one of Jess's d-shafts. Try the above first and see if we can get rid of it that way?

Yep. The above is a lot cheaper than a new shaft!

Yea, that sounds like a plan.

If we can at least get rid of it without having to purchase shit, then I would feel better knowing that a new high angle shaft would take care of the problem. But I want to do everything else first, and cheaply.

My buddy will be looking at the post tonight, and if he has anything to add, I'll post up some more.

BEFORE you go getting a new shaft that MAY have the same problems due to other mechanical issues. Check your driveline and pinion angles to the output shaft. Make sure nothing is binding. If it isn't binding and the CV was mishandled when removed from teh Jeep, it could just be the CV Joint needs to be repaired. (been there, done that, Jess helped save the weekend)

Travis

After reading the entire thread, here is my $.02. It does indeed sound like the CV joint has been binding- as previously diagnosed. This could account for the transfer case and shifters shaking, as the entire transfer case would want to try to rotate around the moment radius of the bound CV joint. So, each time the CV binds, the transfer case want to hop- kinda like an off-balance flywheel. Based on this, you can argue that the shaking would have remedied itself by the CV joint wearing to the point where it only makes enough contact to make a clink/clunk noise. It seems that this is even more the case since all other components, with the exception of the CV joint, have been rebuilt or replaced.

You best bet is to follow the advice in previous posts, and install some type of MM lift. The MM lift will angle the output yoke of the transfer case down, thus decreasing the CV joint angles. You can add a transfer case drop to decrease the CV joint angles even further. Lastly, the pinion angle does look a bit on the high side, so you may want to pull the shims out.

Originally posted by IndyCJ
I'm wondering if it's not the following.

He bought a "kit" for a 95, blah, blah, blah, with the kit designed for a D35. The pinion on a 60 I think is about 3" longer. Which would mean he would have more of an angle because of the lesser distance.


Any other ideas?

I ran an AX15, 231 w/SYE, and a 60 for a little while. I had a 16 inch shaft at 26 degree pinion angle because I was SOA on 4 inch springs. I blew up (and I mean EXPLODED) 3 CV;s in about 1500 of driving. Thats when I went T18 and atlas to shorten everything up. After that I was 23 degrees on a 20 or so inch shaft........and STILL blew up a CV on the street.

Ok, now I'm going to throw this in the mix.

I stopped by on my way home to take a lookie see, I haven't been able to talk to him for awhile.

Anyway, he put the shims in to lower the pinion, and I hate to say it, but it looks kick ass.

So, I have him drive over me, no driveshaft CV bind. I'm like WTF.

So, I take it for a drive. Pull it out on the street, put it in gear, and in idle, klunk, klunk, klunk...... :mad:

Damnit.

So, I get back and we put it up on jackstands and put it in gear. I can hear the noise, but it's coming from the rear end! :confused:


We checked the pinion bearings, blah, blah. Could it be the Detroit? He has 35 spline 1.5" axles in that from Moser, and the detroit is from moser too.

So, any ideas? I just e-mailed him and asked him to put it back up on jackstands, and unhook the driveshaft at the pinion. I'm gonna stop by on my way home tomorrow afternoon, and he's gonna put it in gear, and I'm gonna put on some leather gloves and try to get that driveshaft to bind. I'm also gonna try to spin the tires fast enough and see if I can hear that rear end noise again.

Anyway, other ideas?

Originally posted by IndyCJ

So, any ideas? I just e-mailed him and asked him to put it back up on jackstands, and unhook the driveshaft at the pinion. I'm gonna stop by on my way home tomorrow afternoon, and he's gonna put it in gear, and I'm gonna put on some leather gloves and try to get that driveshaft to bind. I'm also gonna try to spin the tires fast enough and see if I can hear that rear end noise again.


:eek: Sounds like a great way to get at least one arm ripped off!

My guess... it didn't bind while driving over you because it wasn't under load. Put it in gear, engage with a small amount of throttle and the pinion will rotate up with the torque. That's when you'll get it to bind.

As stated the pinion should be pointed 1-2* below the CV. You said it looks sweet. Does that mean it's pointed below...?

Any wear on the inside of the CV from contact of the ears under rotation?

How 'bout pulling the rear driveshaft entirely? Still thunk/clunk/click?

Paul

If the CV had previously binded, you most likely popped the ball and collar in the middle of the CV. I've seen the ball pop by just the weight of the shaft hanging on the CV joint(disconnected from pinion yoke). Rebuild the CV or at least take it apart and look. The ball keeps the two halfs of the CV centered so it won't wobble.

Yea, but like I said, now with the rear end up in the air, I can definately hear the klunk klunk klunk coming out of the rear end.

Hopefully he's got the driveshaft off when I go see him tomorrow, and I'll give you all an update.

OK FOR THE LAST TIME!

Its more than likely not in your rear diff, its more than likely not your tranny, tcase, engine, motor mounts, flywheel, tranny mount, whatever. IT IS YOUR CV JOINT!

How do I know? I went through this earlier this year on my rig. I coulda swore it came from the rear end, when in reality it was the CV joint that died due to a slip up on either my part, precision drivelines or crash.

Yank your rear driveline, drive it in front wheel drive, I bet the noise goes away. (even if you have a detriot in the front end, you can test it out going slow)

After reading most of the thread and seeing the pics, That d-carden joint caps look huge for the angles. I know your saying the sound is coming from the rear but sometimes sound transmits in funny ways. I would spray some red paint on that d-carden and take it for a drive. Get some torque in there, make that axle wrap a little, then look for witness marks in the red paint. The pic looks like there is no room for those big joints in there. Also, in a perfect world, when using a d-carden joint (you're calling a c-v joint) you want that pinion to point directly at the T-case yoke under normal load. If you are varying your angles, trying different things and the noise gets louder when the pinion goes more above or below the yoke, it stands to reason that the d-carden is binding. I would think with a soa you would need that pinion 1-2 degrees below target ( yoke being your target ). And if it's making noise there, check the d-carden. A detroit will give up on one side or the other or just break completely and will snap furiously, even when moving straight. And one more thing, that T-case yoke is damn long, if it runs eccentric .02" at one inch long then it'll run eccentric by 3/16" at 3 inches long, compounding itself. You might want to check with that SYE maker and see what their tolerances are for the run out. Oh well, I'm just a newbie on this forum but I've been doing this poop for a long time. GL

Originally posted by twaldher
OK FOR THE LAST TIME!

Its more than likely not in your rear diff, its more than likely not your tranny, tcase, engine, motor mounts, flywheel, tranny mount, whatever. IT IS YOUR CV JOINT!

How do I know? I went through this earlier this year on my rig. I coulda swore it came from the rear end, when in reality it was the CV joint that died due to a slip up on either my part, precision drivelines or crash.

Yank your rear driveline, drive it in front wheel drive, I bet the noise goes away. (even if you have a detriot in the front end, you can test it out going slow)

Ok, ok. Hopefully I'll be able to drive over there today and check it out.

My only problem swallowing your comment that it's the CV joint is because the driveshaft has literally, 300 feet on it. If it can happen that quick, then yea, I'll bite.

Why don't you guys all just drive up to indiana for a day and help me out. :flipoff2:

Later dudes, and thanks!

A day late and a dollar short, I'm gonna weigh in on this one on the side of the people who are saying the C-V joint is binding because of a combination of too short of a driveshaft being used in conjunction with too high a rear pinion and too high a TC output.

A combination of lifted motor mounts, lowering your pinion slightly and making sure the grease retainer ring and centering ball assembly in the C-V are OK should cure your problem.

Good luck IndyCJ,
Jake

Well if you think it's a clunk from the rear end you can pull the rear shaft and drive it around. if it still clunks out back, you know it's not the driveline

Originally posted by IndyCJ


Ok, ok. Hopefully I'll be able to drive over there today and check it out.

My only problem swallowing your comment that it's the CV joint is because the driveshaft has literally, 300 feet on it. If it can happen that quick, then yea, I'll bite.

Why don't you guys all just drive up to indiana for a day and help me out. :flipoff2:

Later dudes, and thanks!

300 feet has nothing to do with it. It could only have 1 foot on it and still be the CV if the driveline was mishandled. a CV joint is somewhat sensitive.

I HAD THE SAME PROBLEM , AND IT WAS A BAD C/V ON THE DRIVESHAFT. MINE FAILED ON A 700 MILE TRIP. I ALSO CHECKED EVERYTHING YOU MENTIONED AND I ENDED UP TOWING IT HOME. IT ENED UP JUST BEING A BAD DRIVE SHAFT.

Originally posted by DAVID
I HAD THE SAME PROBLEM , AND IT WAS A BAD C/V ON THE DRIVESHAFT. MINE FAILED ON A 700 MILE TRIP. I ALSO CHECKED EVERYTHING YOU MENTIONED AND I ENDED UP TOWING IT HOME. IT ENED UP JUST BEING A BAD DRIVE SHAFT.


YO DAVE! SPEAK UP, WE CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!

Annoying fawkin newbies...
:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by IndyCJ

So, any ideas? I just e-mailed him and asked him to put it back up on jackstands, and unhook the driveshaft at the pinion. I'm gonna stop by on my way home tomorrow afternoon, and he's gonna put it in gear, and I'm gonna put on some leather gloves and try to get that driveshaft to bind. I'm also gonna try to spin the tires fast enough and see if I can hear that rear end noise again.

Anyway, other ideas?

That sounds like one of the dumbest ways to hurt yourself I have come across in a while. Do us a favor....have your bud ready with a camera so we can see "as it happens" action shots. :shaking:

Originally posted by Keith Strong


That sounds like one of the dumbest ways to hurt yourself I have come across in a while. Do us a favor....have your bud ready with a camera so we can see "as it happens" action shots. :shaking:

WEB CAM! WEB CAM! WEB CAM! WEB CAM!

my vote is for the cv ball as well. I've had a bad clicking sound (clunk at some times). Changed just about everything except the driveshaft since it only had 400 miles on it. I pulled the driveshaft last night and the ball was horrible worn.

Originally posted by bigdude
The initial torque of the motor is so small it pretty much can't wrap springs, I've tried.

Maybe not with new springs, but with used stock springs it can wrap pretty bad even with the 2.5L.

Originally posted by Keith Strong


That sounds like one of the dumbest ways to hurt yourself I have come across in a while. Do us a favor....have your bud ready with a camera so we can see "as it happens" action shots. :shaking:

Bahahaha. :flipoff2:

Yea, the more I thought about it, the more I was like WTF am I thinking.

It was a long day, just got done with a final exam, and I was obviously smokin' crack. :D

I agree with jeepindoug....Do the paint thing and look for contact at the cv.
Also check the u-joint straps at the rear diff pinion yoke.... from the looks of the pics it appears that they def hit. Look for scrapes or gouges on the straps.
This same thing happened to me..... I raised the motor, lowered the t-case and adjusted pinion angle to 2* and haven't had a problem since.
Yes you will def have to install a traction bar of some sort to prevent axle wrap!
My 14 bolt angle was as bad or worse than his before I made my adjustments....now it looks a whole hell of alot better!...Better oiling to pinion bearing also.

When i first got my cv shaft I had a similar problem. The shaft was brand new and there was a clunking noise. I thought it was the sye I had just put on at first so I removed the driveshaft and viola the noise went away. The cv portion of the shaft was toast. Sounds like you have the same type of prob. When the shaft is out does the noise go away?

UPDATE

Dudes, just want to send out a big thank you ! (Especially Keith and twaldher :flipoff2: )


We ended up just having to rotate the pinion down a few degrees and that took care of the problem. We've still got to put the track bar on and "clean up" a few items, but that's minor shiat.

The d-shaft checks out alright, so that's a bonus. (I was sweating a little!)

Anyway, thanks again!

out

screw that.. if you cant figure out the problem.. dump it and get a high pinion d60 and a new shaft.. that'll fix all your probs.. :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: