This may have been posted before but I noticed the new arca page is up with the new 2 class rules. What do you think?
ARCA (http://www.rockcrawler.org/)

Big changes, that's for sure. I guess we will see how it all works out.

I'm surprised they allow tube frames in the modified stock class.

Damn, it looks like even po white trash like me could play now. <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0"> Yet another reason to get off my ass and get the Scout done. I think that whole engine being free of leaks could pose a problem though, it is an IH.
Travis

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Overkiller ]

Originally posted by Gordon:
<STRONG>This may have been posted before but I noticed the new arca page is up with the new 2 class rules. What do you think?
ARCA (http://www.rockcrawler.org/)</STRONG>

Whats up Gordo you gonna enter or what?????

What type of measuring device do they use for the tires? Mine are right at 38" horizontally at about 5 lbs. Vertically they read 35" at 5 lbs.

I also am surprised they allow tube frames.

I liked all the rule changes, 'cept I would have disallowed tube frame or major alterations to stock oem frames. This would have forced competitors to stick to fairly close to stock suspension systems. This sounds to me that something like Currie's fire ant would still qualify for modified stock. I don't think a vehicle which has the entire back 1/2 of the frame chopped out and tube chassis welded in to run coil overs should qualify as modified stock.

I would also have reduced tire size to 36 inches for modified stock. As it is there is not much difference in tire size between modified stock and open, and smaller tires would have encouraged competitors to keep the vehicles closer to stock. At 38 inches, all competitors will want to run maximum tire size, and it is hard to accomodate that without majorly chopping the body and altering the suspension.

I wonder how much influence people like Currie (like I said, the Fire Ant appears to squeek in under the modifed rules), and goodyear (38 inches sounds like exactly what the rumoured 39 inch MTRs are going to measure out at) had in the process......

But overall I think it is about time they went to 2 classes. For certain, the assassin, sniper, and Campbell's single seaters will no longer be in there with production based vehicles.

Just my opinion.

I don't know about you, but it seems like individuals are at a disadvantage from a financial point compared to folks like currie who can spend as much as need to
"buy" the win. There should be different classes for business owners. Perhaps a "pro" class?

Charles

That's pretty much my point. When they allow major frame modifications, it starts getting beyond what the single person can reasonablt keep up with ....... but I guess that it would one way or the other.

I remember in Motorcyle Racing, modified production meant stock frame, suspension geometry, you could change out shocks and springs but not alter the way they worked. No major motor mods - just different air filters and headers. Not tranny mods, or body work mods other than those required for safety.

I could live with most of the rules they are going with. But I do agree with the comments on modifying the frame. For an individual with a wife and kids (budget constraints), I have a nicely built FJ40. Pretty much goes anywhere I like to go. But in comparison to most of the ARCA trucks, I have a POS.

I'm glad to see a division in classes. Maybe they'll get rid of the frame mod or make a 3rd class of trucks and guys like me could actually TRY to run those courses. Not whining and <IMG SRC="smilies/crybaby2.gif" border="0"> - just offering my opinion.

Radiators must have an OEM or aftermarket overflow bottle, securely mounted, connected to the radiator by an overflow tube. Overflow bottles may not be beverage containers

that means your beer cans wont work <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Drew

All very good observations and comments. Some of these comments will be why we are looking at three classifications next year.
This is not in stone yet, but here are my thoughts for our classifications (CalROCS).
modified stock:
1. 36" or smaller tire. measured unwieghted, 10psi use 36" caliper
2. Full recognizible body ie. jeep, toyota, scout, ford, chevy, nissan, geo, etc., Minor trimming of body allowed ie. % of quater panel etc. without tubbing.
3. Stock location point suspension or manufactured suspension replacement kits (manufactured=nationaly recognized suspension manufactures) ie. Rubicon express,
skjacker, trail master,ets..
4. stock forms of powersteering. no fully hydraulic systems.
5. stock style metal floors, inter-fenders, firewalls, tubs.
6. doors maybe removed
7. legally registered in state of orign.

We are still working on refinements of the modified stock class

Pro modified class would be last years ARCA type of class minus rear steer, airbags, single seater, hydraulic suspensions. Limit of 39" tire, measured same as stock class.

Open/unlimited class, anything goes, if you can build it bring it awn!!!!!!

Rich Klein
CalROCS

i think you guys might misunderstand the frame limitations it says " replacement frames from commercial manufactures & available on the market as a promoted product"
that means all frames from companies like Advanced Frame Works, Matkins. possibly Avalanches Sniper, & Campbells chassis' will qualify for modified class I would rather see A modified OEM frame class with manufactured suspensions.

Just a matter of time before someone starts building products in lots of 200 to homologize products for ARCA. COOL! Where do I sign up for a Fire Ant? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Also, keep in mind that the guys who won the first year ARCA series was running backyard tech... there's WAY more involved in driving these things than building them, IMHO. Certainly, they are inter-related... but realistically, you could drop most top-ten drivers in just about any piece of tin, and they'd do very well. Especially if you checked the 'fully insured' box on the rental contract. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

Randii

Originally posted by Overkiller:
<STRONG>I think that whole engine being free of leaks could pose a problem though, it is an IH.
Travis
</STRONG>

Just run the engine fluid free, it's an IH it'll keep running.

Joe

Originally posted by Big Rich:
<STRONG>3. Stock location point suspension or manufactured suspension replacement kits (manufactured=nationaly recognized suspension manufactures) ie. Rubicon express,
skjacker, trail master,ets..
</STRONG>

...So that tosses out Toy's using the Chev Swap then, since it's not a 'manufactured suspension replacement kit' and doesn't 'fit in the stock location'? Or anyone who's made their own front hanger for their springs?

I'm not knockin'; I know how INSANE it is to try to write rules for an event (I had to review ours last year, like 1,000,000 times <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">)

...Cool, tho. Great idea.

It just says leaks that pose a fire hazard.

Pete

Custom built or one off suspension systems would be a pro-modified class vehicle, just trying to give the little guy/or trail runner a place to start, and manufactures a place to sponsor/advertise.
Rich Klein
CalROCS

Originally posted by Bob:
<STRONG>i think you guys might misunderstand the frame limitations it says " replacement frames from commercial manufactures & available on the market as a promoted product"
</STRONG>

I thought about that one for a while to try to figure out exactly what they meant by it. It says stock oem is allowed. It says aftermarket is allowed. It then says it must use a certain material. I took this to mean you could use stock, aftermarket, OR a custom one as long as it was made of this type of material, but it could easily be interpretted your way also, which would make sense and be more in line with what I was hoping for.

However, there is a saying in racing, which goes something like 'If it does not say explicitly that you cannot do something, then by definition you must assume that you CAN do it.' This saying is generally followed in all forms of racing - we used to know it as the 'don't get behind on your cheating' rule. Point is that if it is ARCA's intent to not allow custom frames, then they should explicitly state that in the rules, something like "3. Major modifications to the stock or aftermarket frame are NOT allowed. 4. Custom frames are NOT allowed."

That would clear it up.

If you are correct, and this rule is meant to disallow major frame modifications, then that does change a lot. It means that cutting off the back 1/2 of the frame to mount coil overs is not allowed, etc etc. Like CalRoc is thinking, I think they should also explicitly state that suspension attachment points must remain stock - you can go SOA, but the springs have to be mounted in the same location. TJs would have to have their control arms mounted in stock position, etc etc. This would make the class much more managable for the average competitor.

OR there is always the 'claiming rule'. Put a price tag up, say 20K or whatever, and anyone can claim anyone else's vehicle for that price. I'm not suggesting this (I personally don't like this rule), but they use it in dirt track to keep people from getting too wild with the mods, because if you get carried away someone comes along and buys your ride for like 1/4 what it cost you to build it.

Again, just my opinion.

Chad

Originally posted by jeepruler:
<STRONG>What type of measuring device do they use for the tires? Mine are right at 38" horizontally at about 5 lbs. Vertically they read 35" at 5 lbs.</STRONG>

My guess would be they'd use a C-shaped fixed caliper as we did in mud racing at one time. The caliper is held horizontally & slid over the tire. BTW, we have since abandoned this system as it was constantly a point of argument among both judges & competitors alike. For example, if a tire measures exactly 38" (allowed by rule) then the tire will be tight in a 38" caliper. So, how tight is allowed? Does everyone push exactly as hard as the next guy? And if they say the caliper has to fall over via gravity, well then a tire that's exactly 38" won't go. And if you're the guy who has a tire at exactly 38", wouldn't you be ticked? Then we had things like 38X12.50's sliding right through the 36" caliper while we had to force 33X12.50 TSL's through the 33" caliper. After a few years of fighting & a few hard feelings, we went back to "stamped" height. Metric tires are credited as "equivalent" sizes (example, 315/75R16's are ALWAYS called "35's"). The only ones we still measure are the old 78 & 85 series tires. And for those we still use the caliper.


BTW, I too agree on the frame thing. I have 11 classes in my mud race sanctioning body. I require an O.E.M. frame in:

Real Street
Street Stock
Hot Street
Women's Hot Street
Super Stock
Outlaw Stock
Pro Stock

Real Street requires O.E.M. style suspension (no SAS conversions) & no body swaps.

Street Stock through Super Stock require any O.E.M. style of suspension (no 4-links, 1/4 eliptical, etc.).

Real Street through Outlaw Stock require uncut D.O.T. tires, single carb, no NOS, no turbos, no blowers, stock wheelbase.

Pro Stock gets cut tires, 10% wheelbase extension, & NOS.


So, basically 1/2 of my classes won't allow aftermarket frames. And I think ARCA really did itself a diservice allowing them in their lowest class. They also make no mention of tire grooving. That's another thing that doesn't belong in the lowest class IMO.


TEX

Custom built or one off suspension systems would be a pro-modified class vehicle, just trying to give the little guy/or trail runner a place to start, and manufactures a place to sponsor/advertise.

I have somewhat of a trail runner so does that mean because I didn't want to run independent in the front instead of a simple leaf sprung straight axle as a stock Jeep and Cruiser I would be pro-modified?

NO, check out for an example All Pro Off Roads conversion kit, Toyota Straight Axle conversion. I don't know of many s-10 kits, but how different is it. We have to draw the line somewhere, we'd love to see more manufactures step up with conversion kits, It seems just about everything is IFS now.
Well I guess we could add as excption to the rules a say something like any suspension modification allowed but you have to run 29" tires. NO matter how we right the rules there will always be those that think we've pushed it to tight. on the other hand there are those that would love to build a lower classification vehicle within the rules and just out drive those in the class. Did you build the s-10 out of the love for the vehicle or because it's what you had, what would have been the comparable costs involved if you would have started with another vehicle that had a straight axle to begin with. (I should talk, I building up a D-50 to kick toyota butts, someday).
Rich Klein
CalROCS
p.s. recommend a ruling at would keep your vehicle in mod stock, but still keep the customs in another class.

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: Big Rich ]

I don't pay much attention to Toyota's so I don't know if it's even close to the same. It's not a kit, I built it on my own. I built the vehicle because I had it and I didn't know of any cool s-10 rigs at the time. I'm not bitching here I was just giving things to think about.

Big Rich Wrote:
Custom built or one off suspension systems would be a pro-modified class vehicle, just trying to give the little guy/or trail runner a place to start, and manufactures a place to sponsor/advertise.

Based on this, what would you consider a custom SOA. Seems like most FJ40 owners do their own "home brewed" SOA. Since it's not a manufactured kit, would it force an otherwise "normal" truck (not a rock buggy, but a rock ready personally owned/built truck)into the pro-modified?

Just curious so I can figure out if I can actually be competitive or if I'm just dreaming.

Originally posted by Big Rich:
<STRONG>NO, check out for an example All Pro Off Roads conversion kit, Toyota Straight Axle conversion. I don't know of many s-10 kits, but how different is it. We have to draw the line somewhere, we'd love to see more manufactures step up with conversion kits, It seems just about everything is IFS now.
Well I guess we could add as excption to the rules a say something like any suspension modification allowed but you have to run 29" tires. NO matter how we right the rules there will always be those that think we've pushed it to tight. on the other hand there are those that would love to build a lower classification vehicle within the rules and just out drive those in the class. Did you build the s-10 out of the love for the vehicle or because it's what you had, what would have been the comparable costs involved if you would have started with another vehicle that had a straight axle to begin with. (I should talk, I building up a D-50 to kick toyota butts, someday).
Rich Klein
CalROCS
p.s. recommend a ruling at would keep your vehicle in mod stock, but still keep the customs in another class.

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: Big Rich ]</STRONG>

rich,
you scare me. im driving 15 hours with a crew to hang with you and you're building a D50? <IMG SRC="smilies/clown.gif" border="0"> gabe <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

I will laugh at these people who have the money to go big but barely stay in the modified stock class so they can dominate it.

Go play with the high dollar big boys were you belong.

SOA would be ok, unless the axle is being moved along the spring. reversing springs to get a little longer wheel based would be ok. stock location points means where the hangers meet the frame. think hard....it's not that limiting.
Rich Klein
CalROCS

Originally posted by fj40charles:
<STRONG>I don't know about you, but it seems like individuals are at a disadvantage from a financial point compared to folks like currie who can spend as much as need to
"buy" the win. There should be different classes for business owners. Perhaps a "pro" class?

Charles</STRONG>

I totally agree... businesses have such a huge advantage with endless time and parts to do the work plus a big rig to tow it there..

Does that mean stock seats aren't allowed in the modified class? What are "leg extensions"?

Originally posted by Big Rich:
<STRONG>SOA would be ok, unless the axle is being moved along the spring. reversing springs to get a little longer wheel based would be ok. stock location points means where the hangers meet the frame. think hard....it's not that limiting.
Rich Klein
CalROCS</STRONG>

here's a question

what about people like myself who have the chevy swap in the rear and a SAS....what would our vehicles fall under
its kinda hazy....mine sure as hell aint no pro-mod class

People shouldn't complain too much on the new rules. ARCA is far from the norm in four wheeling. Everyone thrash's there rigs. A slightly modified TJ,YJ,CJ,or what ever rig someone may have has no business in the event unless they have a lot of money. It takes a very modified rig to survive much less win. They all have to climb the same obstacles. So sometimes the only reason guys make it to the next event is because they still have something to bring to the event not because they have a lot of money.

Originally posted by pure-adrenaline:
<STRONG>People shouldn't complain too much on the new rules. ARCA is far from the norm in four wheeling. Everyone thrash's there rigs. A slightly modified TJ,YJ,CJ,or what ever rig someone may have has no business in the event unless they have a lot of money. It takes a very modified rig to survive much less win. They all have to climb the same obstacles. So sometimes the only reason guys make it to the next event is because they still have something to bring to the event not because they have a lot of money.</STRONG>

Ah, A Brown speaks up! Yeah, you guys run a rig that still looks like a Jeep but kicks ass in the Unlimited class!

That is what it is all about!