As I sit here daydreaming about that cool 35 spline disk 60 MONSTER under my truck - just curious if the extra loss of ground clearance from a 44 actually gains anything?

On that note - can I see your shaved pig? <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

I got the HD model so that means more casting to grind...

[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: Brandon ]

Originally posted by Brandon:
<STRONG>As I sit here daydreaming about that cool 35 spline disk 60 MONSTER under my truck - just curious if the extra loss of ground clearance from a 44 actually gains anything?

On that note - can I see your shaved pig? <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

I got the HD model so that means more casting to grind...

[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: Brandon ]</STRONG>

hmmm. lets see, you have broken, what, one birf?? man, i can't see you having any problems with that D44 even with the new motor.. if nec, go alloy shafts.. Thats what i plan on doing with my RC44...

well I allready got the 60, just curious why everyone goes 60 (I am talkin bout the rear not the front)

Ya, i noticedthat after i posted, DOH!!!

well, if you are going to run at least 38's, i would go 60, but I prefer the 44 myself..
with alloy shafts, it will hold up well, and with the way you drive, it will be fine..

I broke a couple axles on a 44, but as soon as I went FF I have never broken another. FF 30 spline 44 will hold up to alot of abuse, especially with alloy shafts

Ask Wheelinjp to post the pic of his sheared off rear dana 44 pinion. It happened a couple months ago at Evan Creek ORV area here in WA.

The pinion snapped clean off. The jeep only did two little bounces on a very steep loose rock face then SNAP!
We got it on video <IMG SRC="smilies/bounce.gif" border="0">

He runs a sbc350, auto, and 36s w/ lockers.

He IS going to a dana 60 rear cause he now has one with 4.88s and a 40 spline spool sitting in the garage.

what benefit do you get running a foater alloy shaft VS a non float?? I know you can turn the hubs out unless you use a spline cap, but is there any benefits as in strength

I have broke a few rear d44's. The heavy ass scout doesn't help. The spyders are the first to go . I broke one with 3.73s and 31" tires!

Originally posted by Brandon:
<STRONG>well I allready got the 60, just curious why everyone goes 60 (I am talkin bout the rear not the front)</STRONG>

I think it's as much for the stronger (1.5") axle shafts as it is for the stronger R&P.

4.09 '44s are a bit weaker than 3.73.. and it just gets worse as you stop from 4.56 down to 4.88.

The 60 would make sure the weak link isn't the R&P. As much as a broken axle shaft would suck on the trail, grenaded gears would suck worse.

Not as big of a deal up front, since (in theory, anyhow) most of the time the front, on average, has to share the engine output with the rear axle. But when in typical 2wd-Rear, the rear end sees ALL of it.

My owner's manual specifically states to NEVER use 4-low without the front hubs turned in.

Not that I follow that rule. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

I've seen someone blow both the front and rear gears out in a pair of D44s before - at once. Not pretty. Nor cheap.

I think they were running 4.88s at the time and probably had the 38x11 Boggers on.

Then again, I also watched that rig stretch the U-bolts until the pinion pointed at the sky.. <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">

I don't think it was from a lack of maintenance.. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Tankota:
<STRONG>Ask Wheelinjp to post the pic of his sheared off rear dana 44 pinion. It happened a couple months ago at Evan Creek ORV area here in WA.

The pinion snapped clean off. The jeep only did two little bounces on a very steep loose rock face then SNAP!
We got it on video <IMG SRC="smilies/bounce.gif" border="0">

He runs a sbc350, auto, and 36s w/ lockers.

He IS going to a dana 60 rear cause he now has one with 4.88s and a 40 spline spool sitting in the garage.</STRONG>

ya, but you ever seen him drive, oh, did i say that outloaud???
J/k sean..

Okay Crash, he does enjoy the go pedal a little <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
but who doesn't?
When he broke the pinion he wasn't really doing much...that is why it was quite surprising.

I've got a pic from a couple years ago at the entrance of the 311 trail at evans (when it was a wet wall of rock and mud) where he did a huge smoke show (tire smoke...not engine smoke) and made it up by drying out the rocks.

A one to two minute burnout really cleaned off and dried off his path up the rocks <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">

The framed picture sits above the "porcelain throne" at his place. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Crash:
<STRONG>what benefit do you get running a foater alloy shaft VS a non float?? I know you can turn the hubs out unless you use a spline cap, but is there any benefits as in strength</STRONG>
Many people will claim that there isnt a great benefit to floaters, but I believe that there is. With a FF axle the shaft is not carrying any of the weight of the vehicle. It is simply driving the wheel. I personally run a flanged floater so that I dont have the notorious outer spline weak spot associated with FF axles

[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: RCKRATZ ]

Oh yah, I almost forgot the blown spider gears in Wheelinjps dana 44 in the driveway <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Just an excuse to buy a locker, right sean? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

What were we doing anyway, were we checking axle wrap? (I think you had just finished the springover)

Originally posted by RCKRATZ:
<STRONG>
Many people will claim that there isnt a great benefit to floaters, but I believe that there is. With a FF axle the shaft is not carrying any of the weight of the vehicle. It is simply driving the wheel. I personally run a flanged floater so that I dont have the notorious outer spline weak spot associated with FF axles
</STRONG>

Have you had any problems with the housing bending? I think the SF housings are generally a thinner-wall tubing than the FF housings - because the axle shaft carries some of the weight, not JUST the housing.

When you go FF, I think you're increasing the leverage on the housing, which wasn't designed for it.

I was thinking of the FF kit for a while and figured if I did, I'd first truss the housing to add some strength to it.

Turns out it was the front housing that needed the truss first.. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> Should have the new front end in a week - trussed.

I know a guy who busted 2 ring gears in a rear 44 but he had a very heavy right foot. I have never had a problem with mine and I have 5.38. But then again I prefer to lock it down into 3500000000000:1 and just crawl. I have heard that scout rears are nutorious for bent housings, Im putting a truss on mine. <IMG SRC="smilies/jeep2.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

YOu want clearance get a shaved 35 spline 9". I run one in the front of my Cruiser and I wish I had one in the rear...that damn '60 finds every rock on the trail!

ive broke 3 ring and pinions, and one axle takin a detroit with it....

ahhh guys I feel better <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

tanks I needed that, now I can get it awwwwwn

Originally posted by tsm1mt:
<STRONG>Have you had any problems with the housing bending? I think the SF housings are generally a thinner-wall tubing than the FF housings - because the axle shaft carries some of the weight, not JUST the housing.

When you go FF, I think you're increasing the leverage on the housing, which wasn't designed for it.

I was thinking of the FF kit for a while and figured if I did, I'd first truss the housing to add some strength to it.

Turns out it was the front housing that needed the truss first.. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> Should have the new front end in a week - trussed.</STRONG>

I haven't had a problem with the housing bending, but that may also be because I have a CJ-5, which we all know is a pretty lightweight rig. It may (I have no idea) be a problem on rigs with significantly more weight.

Glenn's old flatty never had any prob's with his (that i can think of)

yea.. it was a jeep renegade with scout dana 44 axles.. 4.56 gears and lockrights with 38 swamper sxs behind a stock inline 6 and we definately broke some stock axles, but hey the jeep drove home in one wheel drive <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> ....

id go with a 9 inch rear myself... throw in a strange nodular case for $350 from summit with a summit spool for $150 and whatever spline count axles ya want and your good to go... add a truss if ya jump it....

peace
Jw

Originally posted by tsm1mt:
<STRONG>Have you had any problems with the housing bending? I think the SF housings are generally a thinner-wall tubing than the FF housings - because the axle shaft carries some of the weight, not JUST the housing.

When you go FF, I think you're increasing the leverage on the housing, which wasn't designed for it.</STRONG>

As far as leverage on the housing, it would be the same whether FF or SF, The housing still supports all the weight in a SF application, it doesn't matter whether the weight is transfered through the axle shaft or a spindle, it's still in the same place. You could argue that the flange on the end of the axle tube wasn't designed for that kind of stress though. A truss isn't going to help you with that problem though, you'd have to gusset the flange.

I had a 30 spline FF44 under my rig for 7yrs before I broke an axle. I think they can take some real abuse before breaking and when they do break you know why.

Originally posted by Grandpa_Jeep:
<STRONG>As far as leverage on the housing, it would be the same whether FF or SF, The housing still supports all the weight in a SF application, it doesn't matter whether the weight is transfered through the axle shaft or a spindle, it's still in the same place. You could argue that the flange on the end of the axle tube wasn't designed for that kind of stress though. A truss isn't going to help you with that problem though, you'd have to gusset the flange.</STRONG>

I thought a SF was "weaker" because the vehicle's weight rested on the axle shafts, right?

So SOME of the weight is in the 'shafts and not the housing.

But with a FF, it's the spindle and housing that take the weight - and every factory FF housing I've heard of uses heavier wall tubing compared to the SF.

What am I missing?

Couldn't you build an "I-beam" rear axle with four bearings, one big long shaft with flanged ends, and a piece of box tubing or even flat-bar?

Space the bearings out - one at either end, a pair near the middle, held in place by the flat bar. Attach the springs to the flat only, right next to the outer bearings.

Wouldn't the "axle shaft" give the "axle assembly" most of it's strength?

Now try the same thing with a spindle on the end and just the flat bar to hold up the weight - no "axle shaft".. I bet it bows in the middle. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Or is it just too late in the afternoon on too-little-sleep befuddling my mind?

I do agree on the housing ends not being designed for the load - we conjectured that was part of the "axle-walking" that was eating the locking hubs on the early (pre-drive flange) Warn FF kits for SIIs. The mounting flange was wobblin' a little - either that, or the housing was bending.

-Tom

I broke 2 Stock Scout axle shafts and then went full float Warn then never had Any problems But when I went 39.5 Tsl's I Figured it would be in the best Intrest to change My rear!! to A Rev 60 Since I had 2

hehehheheheh <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
My.02 Cents
Adam ,,,,,

Well if I remember correctly Bob Roggy didn't break any rear 44's axles untill he started competeing in the Arca. the first one he broke jumping bomb craters and then broke some others when he was totaly getting it. I myself never broke a dana 30 front axle or rear 44 when it was all in my flatty And I was running ok power with my LT1/sm420/300.. I think if you drive smart a rear 44 can handle 38.5's fine but I wouldn't go any bigger. If someone built a 44 rear with good shafts in it there is no reason to sweat it good shafys like (dutchman, mosure sp, Summers Bros) increase the strength by 20 to 30 %. If you have a rear 44 and are gonna run a spool get a 35 spline spool put the 9" ends on and run 1 1/2 35 spline rear axles same as a 60 with killer clearance and lighter. I'm gonna try my luck with a 44 and my automatic, it should be fine if not I'll just get some goog axles made and forget about it.

kinda a silly ? to ask on this board as i think everything imaginable has been broken.

Scott Arentz broke both sides, and the ARB in the sluice last year, on 36's, but loaded with gear.

had a friend blow the spiders outta a 44....rear end bounced and caught traction combined with a buick 350 and a 69' wagoneer and it went kaboom <IMG SRC="smilies/nuke.gif" border="0">

hmmm Interesting..
Im planning on running 37" SSR's with a 44 rear and probably a 44 front with 4.56's... wondering if Im going to have any problems.. I guess I could always not worry about it, then if I do have a problem, just upgrade to alloys, or even a full floater.
Scott <IMG SRC="smilies/grinpimp.gif" border="0"><>< <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

I broke the 44 in my '51 Willys Wagon on the street. I was tooling down the road when all of a sudden the ass of my truck fell down and my tire went rolling past me. When I finally caught the tire I saw the axle shaft had broke right at the hub ( 2 piece). It was a cheap replaement shaft but it looked like it was broken 1/2 way through for quite while before it finally let loose. Other then that I've never had any problems with 44s even in heavy Scouts.
Travis

Originally posted by 1badjeep:
<STRONG>hmmm Interesting..
Im planning on running 37" SSR's with a 44 rear and probably a 44 front with 4.56's... wondering if Im going to have any problems.. I guess I could always not worry about it, then if I do have a problem, just upgrade to alloys, or even a full floater.
Scott <IMG SRC="smilies/grinpimp.gif" border="0"><>< <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

you will be breakin them damned front 297 joints

Originally posted by badassjeepguy:
<STRONG>ive broke 3 ring and pinions, and one axle takin a detroit with it....</STRONG>

Side note: This is since 1997. In a TJ with 456's and only up to 35 inch tires. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Not with 38's and not with 39.5's.

Not on Dry rocks, Not bouncing, Not hard on the go pedal, with Teralow.

The 44 rear is just tooo small. PERIOD!

I snapped the rear 44 shaft in my 53' at a stop sign taking off and not even gunning it but that is a different case - thing was 50 years old and 19 spline..

I snapped the rear 44 shaft in my 53' at a stop sign taking off and not even gunning it but that is a different case - thing was 50 years old and I thought 10 spline..

Originally posted by Brandon:
<STRONG>I snapped the rear 44 shaft in my 53' at a stop sign taking off and not even gunning it but that is a different case - thing was 50 years old and I thought 10 spline..</STRONG>

<IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> Same exact thing happened to me

A semi-float housing takes just as much weight as a FF housing under the same rig. What do you think the springs are mounted to and what supports the axle shaft? <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0">

FF's are *designed* to carry more weight, so that's why the tubes are thicker. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by badassjeepguy:
<STRONG>you will be breakin them damned front 297 joints</STRONG>
Yeah thats the only concern I have.... GRRRRRRRR
Scott <IMG SRC="smilies/grinpimp.gif" border="0"><><

Originally posted by The Beeb:
<STRONG>A semi-float housing takes just as much weight as a FF housing under the same rig. What do you think the springs are mounted to and what supports the axle shaft? <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0">

FF's are *designed* to carry more weight, so that's why the tubes are thicker. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Yeah, it's the same weight for the whole assembly, but the *tubing* in a FF carries ALL of the weight, while the SF has the TUBING and the SHAFT.

Are you saying a FF '44 front is designed to support more weight than a SF '44 rear? The FF front has heavier wall tubing than the rear..

They wouldn't waste $$$ on the heavier wall tubing if it wasn't necessary, right?


Most '44 Fronts are 2.75" or 3" and 3/8" to 1/2" thickness tubing, and rated for around 3,500lbs.

A good heavy '44 rear is also rated at 3500lbs, but uses 1/4" wall tubing.

Why is 1/4" OK in the rear, but you need 3/8" or better up front?

If you took away the tubing in a SF, how much weight would the axle support...?

None, because the housing supports the axle.


In a FF, the weight is transferred from the springs to the housing/spindle to the wheel bearings and then the hub/wheel/tire to the ground.

In a SF, the weight is transferred from the springs to the housing, to the wheel bearing, to the axle shaft to the wheel/tire to the ground.

The housing still bears all the weight in SF or FF, the only difference is whether or not the axle shaft is part of the equation. In other words, the housing (tubing) bears all the weight either way, but w/ SF, the weight is transferred to the wheel through the axle shaft instead of directly to the wheel...

As for why front tubing is thicker than rear, I don't know. However, I guess these could be some reasons: 1)the springs are closer to center, 2)steering is involved (extra stiffness/safety?), 3)front axles are heavier than rears w/ steering parts, etc. on them...?

I think the combo of 1 and 3 might be the biggies.

I agree with the tube being thicker in the front because of the stearing and you need extra regidity.

Personally, when we built up my RRd44 REAR we used 1/2 in wall DOM with 20% carbon. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
That way I didn't have to worry about trusses or anything. Yea its heavy, 20 lbs per foot. And yea its expensive $20.00 a foot. But its worth it when you only have a 44 in the rear.

Ok, Now you ask why I say that a 44 is too small in the rear. Yet I spent money building one up for myself, Right?
I built one up so I wouldn't have to worry bout the following:

Axle shafts--- Stock parts avail everywhere if I break one. I can get one at a dealership if need be. Junkyard out of a TJ.

Bolt pattern-- Stock is nice that way the front match the rear. I didn't have enough cash to go 8 bolt yet.

I already had the brakes-- Mine worked on the 44. Once again saved money.

We happen to have a Gearset in house. Saved again.

We happen to have an ARB in house. Saved again.

We happen to be very curious if the RR 44 could hold up! Kinda like a test to see if it could hold up if it was overbuilt. And we believe mine is.

Dont worry once the front end 30 self destructs and the RR44 gives up I will have RR60's at both ends with 8 bolts and disc's. <IMG SRC="smilies/massey.gif" border="0">

hey belly, give me your jeep for a day.... ill break it <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

no kiding, If I follow you I'll break it too.

smarty pants.