Ok..... I make a Traction Bar and I kinda Screwed sumthing up

I made a shackle on the frame end of the traction Bar....

Under flex the traction Bar rips the welds off the axle..... I must have a pivot point screwed up or something..... I have two points on the axle. One point is on the front side of the axle and one point is above the axle....... They are about 6" apart..... I think the problem might be that one point should be above the axle and one below. The other thing is I belive I read somewhere that the top bar should be parallel to the ground and mine is at an angle.

The traction bar mount is about 8 inches in front of the leaf spring. and a few inches down.

I have a 5" block on a leaf sprung ford Ranger.

I have searched and nobody else seemed to have this problem so I must have screwed something up please help thanx...

Pics?

It actually sounds fairly reasonable. I hate to ask it, but how's your welding?

Edit: Where did you mount the traction bar, side-to-side? It's best to have it as close to center as is reasonable. If, for instance, you have it mounted outside the spring right next to the wheel, that would put more force on the traction bar when you're flexed up. Still shouldn't rip the mounts off though.

If you don't have a digicam:

1. Click Start. Click run.
2. Type "mspaint" and hit enter.
3. Color us a little drawing using the kindergarten-stlye paint tools, and email it to me. I'll post it and then we can get started on ripping you a new on for your stupidity. :D

I really don't belive it to be the weld... though always a posiblity....

email sent to TNT

do you have a pivot on the shackle end? like a jonny joint or heim?

that sounds like the problem to me. no twist in the front mount?:confused:

If you draw a line from the forward end of the track bar
to a point between the two rear mount points....is this line
about 90 deg to a line drawn along the length of the shackle?

Is there a heim or other pivot on the front bar point?

Which shackle point is higher....the bar end or frame mounted end?

What does the angle of the track bar (to the ground) look
relative to the "arch angle" of your springs. The track bar
moves in somewhat of an arc as the spring flex up and down.
If these two angles are not somewhat close, the bar and
leaves will fight each other quite a bit.

Jay

If you draw a line from the forward end of the track bar

NO... I belive that might be the problem

Is there a heim or other pivot on the front bar point?
It is a shackle that I had laying around and chopped up

Which shackle point is higher....the bar end or frame mounted end?

The Bar end is higher

that sounds like the problem to me. no twist in the front mount?

well just as a test I put 1/2 bolts through 9/16" hole to give me a little less rigidity.....

throw a heim on the front of the trac bar, at the shackle, leave it loose in the thread, (no jam nut) this should fix you up.

throw a heim on the front of the trac bar, at the shackle, leave it loose in the thread, (no jam nut) this should fix you up.


well i have the shakel there with a 1/2" bolt through a 9/16" hole giving me 1/8" of play....

I modified the bar now so that a perpendicular line to the shakle bolts ends up in the middle of the traction bar mounts..... that helped the problem but it also is using up every bit of slack i have in the shackle.... something is still not quite right i'll try to get a picture today...

ttt

I cleaned it up a little for you... yours was a little confusing. Yu didn't mention you were running a lift block - also, what angle would you say the traciton bar is at - 20 degrees upward? 10?

Originally posted by TNToy
Yu didn't mention you were running a lift block

Yes he did, see the second to last line in his first post......
"I have a 5" block on a leaf sprung ford Ranger. "

Check out Brian's bar that he made for his Cruiser. Your bar should look similar.

http://woody.ih8mud.com/wrap.html

http://woody.ih8mud.com/images/tech/tract002.jpg

Sure sounds to me like you need a thread into the joint at the bar/shackle connection. The bar needs to rotate as the axle artulates.

well i have the shakel there with a 1/2" bolt through a 9/16" hole giving me 1/8" of play....

This is not enough, you need at least 20 degrees of rotation.

My guess it that the 5" lift block isn't HELPING at all. As a matter of fact. If you got some lift springs (maybe not the whole 5" but anything would help here) and then made some extended shackles, that you may not even need the traction bar.

In the diagram, the traction bar is mounted to the top hole in the shackle. Shouldn't the trac bar mount to the bottom hole with the top hole being the frame side? Do that and put the heim on and you'll be good to go

I keep having the same problem, I am glad I'm not the only one.
Here is my scenerio:
91YJ SOA with 2.5" springs.

I built a "sam's" style bar with tractor supply rod ends at all three points. I welding in a cross member behind my Tcase and use a 4.5" shackle on that end. At the shackle rod end i have no jam nut so the threads rotate with articulation.
On the axle end i have two rod ends 7" apart, the lower at the center line of the axle tube and the upper above the axle. From the top bolt to the shackle its about 33". The wrap bar is parallel with the drive shaft Aproximately 21*. The shackle itself is running at about 80-85*.

My bracket that welds to the axle tube is two 1/4" plates and the weld area is aprox. 3.5" on the inner & outer sides of both mount plates.

I welded the brackets on twice and the they broke off. I kinda expected it with my 135 amp welder. But with 3 passes it held longer than i thought. I work at a steel shop, so i brought the jeep in and had a Professional welder weld the plates on. My welds lasted longer. Her was using a BIG mig, 600 amp i believe. I am not sure but i think he had it turned down to around 300 amps.

ANY IDEAS WHY MY MOUNTS KEEP SNAPPING off? Do i need more weld area? Or should i somehow adjust the geometry of the bar? I can post pics this evening. Thanks

I have a "sam's" style traction bar as well. I have NOT had a problem tearing the bracket off the housing. and I have TRIED! (Even lighting up my 36" tires on cement and 2 days of 5,000rpm 1psi 2 wheel hi, sand dunes, as well as towing out a wrecked car torqueing the jeep over hard enough on a turn that the right front tire came off the ground over a foot on level dry pavement with no axle wrap at all.)

Now.. I have a 2" scd 40 truss that runs over the pumpkin out to the outer ends of the axle next to the spring perch. 1/4" plate fills in the gap between the scd40 and the housing. Then two 1/4" plate tabs were welded to the tube and the scd 40 of the truss. So.. the bar itself is like sam's, the bracket on the axle side is most definately not.

Ohh.. and check your welding. If you welded it right, your bracket shouldn't tear off the axle tube at the welds. you should either take out a piece of yoru axle tube or tear the bracket in half. I have heard stories about "professional welders" and seen some of their work. So I don't put a lot of stock in to anyone that is "certified". ;)

Well the professional welder welds for 8 hours a day and has his welds regularly UT tested. The weld actually sheared on his. Mine lacked penetration. The weld was still on the bracket and the axle tube the weld sheared, and he was using x70 wire. Should I have someone stick weld it on?

I am just afraid of fatiguing my axle tube with so much welding. I really dont want to junk my housing. Thanks

I am just afraid of fatiguing my axle tube with so much welding. I really dont want to junk my housing.

That is what I am afaid off tooo.......

My guess it that the 5" lift block isn't HELPING at all. As a matter of fact. If you got some lift springs (maybe not the whole 5" but anything would help here) and then made some extended shackles, that you may not even need the traction bar.

I already have extended shakles with two add a leafs.........

When I bumped up to 39" all i did was swap from a 3" block to a 5" block but I also swaped to a 302..... and i sawzallled the he!! outta some fenders..... everybody that sees the truck says..... "Think you cut enough metal"......


YJ4RoX

I think we just have some SCREWED up angle in out design geometry or something like that.... because i've searched all over the Pirate board and over the net and it dosn't seem to me that people spend thousands of hours designing one of these things and we just happed to stummble upon what NOT to do and have some angle that everybody else gets right the frist time wrong.... but that just MO

I am just afraid of fatiguing my axle tube with so much welding. I really dont want to junk my housing.

That is what I am afaid off tooo.......

My guess it that the 5" lift block isn't HELPING at all. As a matter of fact. If you got some lift springs (maybe not the whole 5" but anything would help here) and then made some extended shackles, that you may not even need the traction bar.

I already have extended shakles with two add a leafs.........

When I bumped up to 39" all i did was swap from a 3" block to a 5" block but I also swaped to a 302..... and i sawzallled the he!! outta some fenders..... everybody that sees the truck says..... "Think you cut enough metal"......


YJ4RoX

I think we just have some SCREWED up angle in out design geometry or something like that.... because i've searched all over the Pirate board and over the net and it dosn't seem to me that people spend thousands of hours designing one of these things and we just happed to stummble upon what NOT to do and have some angle that everybody else gets right the frist time wrong.... but that just MO



as for my welds... I use a mig to tack then arc what was left then used the mig to run the inside.... all the mig welds just lacked good penitration.... my stick welds cracked in the middle of the weld.....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by YJ4RoX
[B]I keep having the same problem, I am glad I'm not the only one.
Here is my scenerio:
91YJ SOA with 2.5" springs.

I built a "sam's" style bar with tractor supply rod ends at all three points. I welding in a cross member behind my Tcase and use a 4.5" shackle on that end. At the shackle rod end i have no jam nut so the threads rotate with articulation.
On the axle end i have two rod ends 7" apart, the lower at the center line of the axle tube and the upper above the axle. From the top bolt to the shackle its about 33". The wrap bar is parallel with the drive shaft Aproximately 21*. The shackle itself is running at about 80-85*.

I have always used rubber bushings at the axle end and a hiem on the frame. Seems to me that rod ends at all three corners would just pound either the bracket or weld.
Mine still will wrap just a little if you get real silly but it does the job of keeping the springs from kinking....
btw I just did a skid and wrap bar for another buddy here is a link to some pics.
http://community.webshots.com/album/46776377RFjLeA
also some on the 8.8 that are a bit eaiser to see.
http://community.webshots.com/album/29128196ERRVqgQEYS

I'm having tis problem too. On my previous axle I tried a couple of designs for mounting to the tube, with no success.
My current rear axle is a HP60. It has the Ford cast in spring perch, so I am useing that to attach the mount. I welded my brackets (3/8") to a piece of 3/8" x 4" x 6" angle iron which is u-bolted to the perch. First the 3/8" angle snapped in two. I welded it back together & added gussets. Then my welds on the shackel mount broke. Welded that up better & now my new gussets have ripped away & the 3/8" angle is bent between the 2 u-bolt mounts (center of the perch) where I welded it back together before.
One mount is in front of the tube & the oter about 5" higher & over the tube. Top of the bar is close to paralell the driveshaft. The shackel is about even with the t/c output, about 4" forward of the spring mount. Heims on all 3 points of the bar & a big spring bushing @ the other end of the shackle.

Should the shackle be in line with the spring mounts?

Hard mounts at all three points is usually too tight a mount.
I run poly bushings in my rear eyes and replace 'em due to
wear about once a year. Heim joint up front, no need to leave
the nut loose so it wears.
Jay

You may want to run a piece of flat stock between the upper mounts, and then the lower mounts, down at the axle tube. That will give you some more area to weld. Also, if you are using tabs instead of the type of bracket that Eric posted, you may want to change to his. Your shackle is mounted ok, no need to change. I would run poly bushings all the way around, screw the heim. I would also make a goofy shackle that can move both ways, and make it out of 1" sched 80 pipe, use 1" poly bushings. Also, loose the 1/2" bolts and go to 9/16. I bent the crap out of my original bolts and had to cut them to get off. A torque arm is not an item that you should worry about the extra weight, make it beefy, or make it again........

If you look how mine is done above, I used shock eyes for the axle mounts and the crossmember mount and a heim joint for the end of the bar itself. A short ~3" shackle and about 6" between the axle mounts, one above bottom edge of the housing, the other well above the top edge. I've had no complaints with mine, and replacement shock bushings are cheap or free. No busted pinions since it was installed.

Total cost using 1" DOM was like $80.

Here is a picture of mine, I've had no problems:
http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={CEA51043-7472-4EBB-AB34-94A5B7030B07}
Good luck guys!

I would also make a goofy shackle that can move both ways,

My tracton bar is ripping of under slight compresion not under massive flex and I not because of one tire being up and one tire down..... I just got my project on the road 5 days ago so i'm still working out kinks before I take it and wheel with it

also every picture i've seen so far has been on spring under or spring over with no block..... anybody got a pic of one with a big block ?

Don't know the arch of your springs, but under compression the axle
will probably want to move up and back. Check your geometry and shackle
to see if it allows this movement without binding.
Jay

When running a tall block you need to make the shackle longer (as tall as the block, minimum).

The axle wrap you are fighting will tend to move the axle forward and back as the block leverage wraps around the spring (even as the spring wrap is minimal forward and back). The traction bar needs to be free to move (a lot) to compensate without binding, and still maintain the pinion angle. The driveshaft plunge depth needs inspection, as the stress will find itself on the shaft & pinion next (after the traction bar is resolved, the shaft travel problems are still there, tall blocks are a challenge).

As the short shackle binds before the forward to back movement is complete, the axle tube joint welds see more stress than necessary.

A long shackle is a poor traction bar mount, with considerable leverage at the crossmember mount. Check into reducing the block height (rear leaf shackle flip, front spring eye mount relocation lower on the frame, more spring arch). The advantage to a lower block height compounds under high torque.

The advice to isolate each mount (poly or rubber at the axle brackets and heim or poly at the shackle ends) is valuable to articulate without twist stress on the tube joint welds. A combination truss and bracket, or bracket webbing, to add weld inches and bridge the tubes is all good advice.

Happy Trails!

Originally posted by Ed A. Stevens

A long shackle is a poor traction bar mount, with considerable leverage at the crossmember mount.



you've got me confused on this one.....? A ladder style t-bar causes vertical movement at the front of the bar under torque. I dont see how the lenght of the shackle would affect the load placed on the x-member. Help me out here:confused:

Originally posted by Keith


you've got me confused on this one.....? A ladder style t-bar causes vertical movement at the front of the bar under torque. I dont see how the lenght of the shackle would affect the load placed on the x-member. Help me out here:confused:

One tire grabs traction while articulated, and the block leverage with spring wrap on one side places a side force on the shackle (with the long leverage of the shackle amplifing the resistance in the crossmember mount).

The process is much like rear bump steer, although amplified under torque, and the pointy end of the traction bar moves sideways on the same rotational axis as axle steer (placing the shackle and axle end mounts under side stress).

Clear as mud?

Happy Trails!

Kinda understand where you are going there....

but, if you had a shackle that had movement fore/aft as well as side/side, would that not relieve the lateral torque on the x-member?

Originally posted by Keith
Kinda understand where you are going there....

but, if you had a shackle that had movement fore/aft as well as side/side, would that not relieve the lateral torque on the x-member?

Yes, and no.

Yes, if the shackle does not bind sideways (so it folds up, and breaks the t-bar or fails to control axle wrap, WTF).

No, as the torque on the crossmember is dictated by the shackle length (the moment arm length from t-bar end pin, to crossmember end pin, on the shackle) when the shackle eventually binds. Side/side movement shortens the effective length of the shackle, but not by much.

Limited side to side movement of the t-bar at the shackle is desired, to allow the axle to walk while articulating, but the axle walk allowed with 5-inch blocks is quite a bit more rotation than ideal.

My intended point is a smaller lift block and alternate lift solution will perform better (with less bandaids).

Happy Trails!