this is potentially a really newb post, as this is my first actual "tow rig".

86 ford f250 4x4 with the crappy ifs 44 front.
c6 trans, borg warner tcase,
6.9l diesel engine.

and now the problem...
it has a gear vendors overdrive unit. for those of you that know it replaces the back half of the bw tcase and turns the original 2 piece drive shaft into one long single.

anyway, i bought the truck under the auspices that the "reverse was out" in the c6. so i swapped in another c6 that i got ahold of that i knew to be in good working order. after 3 solid days of getting it swapped in (kind of new to that world) i tried backing it out of the driveway....same problem. turns out the gear vendors overdrive was totally wasted. this was first suspected when i drained it and black stinky fluid came out. it smelled like wet burnt clutch. i confirmed that the unit was dead when i was able to put the truck in reverse when i put it in 4wd.

i guess what i have learned is that the gv has a conical "overrunning" clutch for the reverse direction, and a hydrostatic planetary system for fwd overdrive and for non od it runs off of a sprague gear. that is why it would work in fwd and not reverse.

i called gv themselves and they will not sell parts. i have to send in the old unit for a core and they will send me a new one for $800.

my question is this, has any one ever "fixed" it your self? is it even possible? i have spent a few days already searching the e-web and can't find any record of anyone trying.

so i have 3 options:
1. spend the money
2. swap in an np 205 and have only the 3 speed c6 that will only let the truck do about 60mph max on the high way
3. pull it apart and try to reconstruct it. but i was wondering if any of you have ever done this and if you have pics or anything.

flame suit on, any help with or without help would be greatly appreciated.

I think volvo sedans use the same unit. older 240 and 740 series with a stick. I just got rid of one a year ago.

cary, was it the same as a "laycock" unit? this volvo unit has a separate switch no? was this a factory option? could i scavenge a boneyard unit and swap it in?

If they're willing to swap you out a new or rebuilt one for $800 that is the way I'd go. Unless the truck is a pile and not worth putting $800 into it, you'd be time and money ahead to reinstall what is already there. If it took you 3 days to install a c6, how long will this thing sit if you try to rig it?
Travis..

it will sit forever if i try and "rig" it:D

for now it at least drives. actually it isn't a pile. i paid $750 for it and it runs well. seems to get at least 18mpg in town, and 11 to 12 when i towed with it this weekend. the engine is a crate rebuild from ford, only 60k on the engine. body is straight, frame is not bent or bowed. it has a banks turbo on it, and a goose neck hitch in the bed. also it is the old extra cab.

all in all it was a steal, but now i don't really have an extra 8 hundy for the overdrive. that was why i was exploring the option of the mp 205, which i have at my disposal. but then i have no overdrive, which can be a bit of a pain.

Swap in a np205, then regear the diffs or go with a bigger tire for more top end. Heck it has a turbo so no worry on power.

For 800 bucks Id have them fix it and that truck will be killer , turbo, c-6 and the overdrive, If you have to wait a month or whatever to round up the cash i think thats easier than changing the transfer case and gears and all that crap

I have not seen any information on how to do it yourself. One of the biggest things that I've seen with the GV units is that you must religiously change the fluid in them.

800 for the rebuild is reasonable if I'm not misaken that will also come with a warranty. This is also cheaper than they usually sell for on ebay which is yet another option. They are reasonable units if you keep up on the fluid changes.

A 4th option for you is a stick shift conversion but that is more expensive than fixing the GV unit.

The GV does not deal well with compression braking when in OD and may people grenade them this way with exhaust brakes. because 2nd over is the speed that they want to go down the hill.

You can pull it apart and if the internals are in reasonable shape you might be able to get a transmission parts house that will help you figure out which clutches, bands etc will be needed to make it all work.

what will happen if you keep driving it as is? will it eventually take out the planetaries that let you go forward and leave you motionless? it doesnt sound like such a big deal to me to have to pop it into 4wd whenever you need reverse.

i think if it were me id fill it with good fluid,and run it till it pops,then swap in the c6/205.

or at least run it as is till you got the $800 to swap it out

what will happen if you keep driving it as is? will it eventually take out the planetaries that let you go forward and leave you motionless? it doesnt sound like such a big deal to me to have to pop it into 4wd whenever you need reverse.

i think if it were me id fill it with good fluid,and run it till it pops,then swap in the c6/205.

or at least run it as is till you got the $800 to swap it out
i think the planetaries are gone. you only really loose the overdrive. my understanding is that you will pretty much always have un-overdriven fwd gears, as the 1/1 drive is done by a sprague.

i however don't really know what a sprague is?

upgrade to a US Gear Dual Range unit!

actually $800 is not too bad of a price for an overdrive. suck they wont sell parts, but its either that or move to a different solution.

swap out for a rebuilt GV. For the price your ahead, rather then swap everything out, loose the OD, Fuelmilage will suffer, and you will need to re do the drivelines. Save up for the 800 bucks and have a killer rig!

yeah, all told, i bought the truck running and drivable for $750. it will most likely need a full brake job on front and rear, which is less than $200. so i will be in it for <$2k for a extra cab long bed well running ford diesel.:D

We have a GV behind our E4OD in a '95 powerstroke.

had some problems with it as well. They guys at GV are a little grouchy and hard to deal with but I talked with him long enough to convince him I was capable of rebuilding it and he sold me what I wanted.
It is mostly o-rings, the sprag, and clutch face. It isn't hard at all.

Layloc was bought by or became GV.

I have read much about them for a couple years but last I knew GV was the only one that allowed you to keep moving if it fails.

not had much luck with the GV electronics they seem to be a little testy but I think the majority of that problem is the crappy wiring they are trying to use.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/591599/fullsize/img_3819.jpg
Rest of the pics (http://www.supermotors.net/vehicles/registry/15015/61298)

The one we had in a 1999 stoke we used to deliver campers with started making alot of noise. I inspected it and found last tech to service it used 90w gear lube instead of the atf specified for it. I pretty much destroyed it from inside out. We contacted GV and they where willing to sell us parts to repair but with all the gears and the back half case all being junk. It was much cheaper to get reman unit with warranty.

:D
Hi everone im new here,and the reason im posting is, Ive been reading the post on this topic, I have lots of new and used parts for GEAR VENDOR UNITS.Im not afiliated in any way with GEAR VENDORS. Here is a little history on the Laycock overedrive,Laycock is long gone,they went out of bussiness years ago,A company named GKN bought the name[laycock and all parts and equipment] and built overdrives 30+ years.But july 08 they also gave up building overdrives and sold all the rights to GEAR VENDOR.GEAR VENDOR for the past 25 years bought all the overdrives from GKN.:eek: So now parts
are hard to come by. If any one needs parts or electronincs kits i have them
email me at gpyzak@ix.netcom.com

if you are selling your own stuff (just a few parts) move this to the classifieds, this is general 4x4 TECH

If you are a business or a vendor, get a yellow star before you pimp your shit and move this to classifieds or the vendors forum, this is still general 4x4 TECH.

welcome to hell :flipoff2:

if you are selling your own stuff (just a few parts) move this to the classifieds, this is general 4x4 TECH

If you are a business or a vendor, get a yellow star before you pimp your shit and move this to classifieds or the vendors forum, this is still general 4x4 TECH.

welcome to hell :flipoff2:

whoa...... hold off on the guy.... he simply added in he's a connection to
get parts for gear vendor units................ it's his 2nd post................
Don't go all teenage-aingst on the guy... yet...

So, Mr Gearvendorpartsman: excellent post, and thanks for being here.

--Although if one wishes to "sell" or, intend to sell on Pirate, you'll need
to pony up and pay for a seller's star.

Personally, I'm not too sure many on here would need a large-supply of
parts for GV units, but it's always welcome to have another parts source.

--Sherpa

how did i not ever see this reply? i just emailed this guy. i hope this didn't drive him away. i cannot afford $900 for a replacement unit the douchebags at gear vendors want.

i hate it when they won't let me fix my own shit. i have never sued anyone for helping me out.

upgrade to a US Gear Dual Range unit!

actually $800 is not too bad of a price for an overdrive. suck they wont sell parts, but its either that or move to a different solution.

Better find a good used one. US GEAR no longer offers them and has a very limited parts supply on hand. Not even enough to assemble a whole unit as per the tech guy I talked with. I've seen a few on Ebay.. They are a lot stronger than the Gear Vendors unit.

From what I've read, the GV units are not suitable for medium/heavy duty applications.

well, that is my other question.

i have a stock borg warner tcase, i can just put in, and get a lengthened drive shaft. cost me $50 bucks to do it. and done.

but no overdrive. it will be cheaper to switch to some 3.54's in the diffs than replace the od at their price.

:D
Hi everone im new here,and the reason im posting is, Ive been reading the post on this topic, I have lots of new and used parts for GEAR VENDOR UNITS.Im not afiliated in any way with GEAR VENDORS. Here is a little history on the Laycock overedrive,Laycock is long gone,they went out of bussiness years ago,A company named GKN bought the name[laycock and all parts and equipment] and built overdrives 30+ years.But july 08 they also gave up building overdrives and sold all the rights to GEAR VENDOR.GEAR VENDOR for the past 25 years bought all the overdrives from GKN.:eek: So now parts
are hard to come by. If any one needs parts or electronincs kits i have them
email me at gpyzak@ix.netcom.com

thank g-d i found this post again. i had no idea that this guy had replied, and he left here due to the totally unwarranted flaming above.

he is extremely helpful, and cheap. this dude is not some rock crawler vendor with yet another set of dana 60 steering arms that he ripped off from someone else's design.

he was a dude with a small business, he saw my post and thought, "hey i can help this guy". and in typical overly zealous pirate fashion, the flame-fest began.

maybe we can extend a little grace to a vendor when he is trying to help someone out? he wasn't pimping random shit that no one asked about. he SPECIFICALLY had what i needed.

i just got off the phone with him. he can send me the parts for $250 to totally rebuild my unit. or he said he will rebuild it for $560 shipped. which is way cheaper than "the man" wants for it. this is the kind of thing pirate used to be about. but clearly we need to support our bling vendors and keep these small guys out that want to help and whatnot.:shaking:

No shit huh? I didn't see that post before either, but it sounded like he was trying to help a guy out.
Travis..

talked to him on the phone yesterday,

he said, "its pretty hard to rebuild it yourself, but if you have a good hydro press it can be done, and if you get into a bind, call me and i will walk you through it."

yep he is definately worth flaming here.:flipoff2:

if you have an overdrive, and it is burned up, this dude is your man. calling gear vendors is totally useless.

I found this guy very hard to deal with. He's a vendor, his website is http://www.maximum--overdrive.com/.

I got a very limited response when I first contacted him via email. There was no mention of his web site in his initial response. Hell, he didn't even leave his name. His second message was slow in coming, but at least he linked to the web site and left his contact info.

He doesn't accept credit cards, wants paid by check. There's no way I'm sending a check to someone on the other side of the country that I had to pry contact info out of. He also doesn't like PayPal, but agreed to accept it after I offered to reimburse his fee.

After another delay, he sent me an a PayPal invoice for the parts I needed. I promptly paid it. Two days later I hadn't heard back, so I emailed him again, asking for a tracking number. He replies, telling me he's not shipping until PayPal releases the hold on my payment.

Huh? I never heard of such a thing, and I've never had anyone, merchant or individual, hold a shipment waiting on money from PayPal. Worst of all, he didn't tell me about the delay up front. At this point, I'm a week in from my initial email, the money's been withdrawn from my account, and I still don't have a tracking number or even a firm ship date.

So I called PayPal. The nice lady I spoke to explains that PayPal doesn't hold money, but if funds are transferred to a bank account, there is an electronic funds transfer delay of a couple days. I've experienced this before myself, and its no big deal. She wanted me to file a dispute, but I decide not to, and to play nice.

So I email this guy back and explain it, and nicely ask him to ship my order. A few hours later, I get a refund. I guess he doesn't want my business. It's wonderful to know he can afford to turn away customers. I wish I could do that.

The whole experience was disappointing, a total waste of my time and his. YMMV, but I think I'll steer clear, and advise anyone who reads to do the same. What a shame, he offers a clean, simple controls package that would've worked perfectly with my C6, and at a reasonable price. Guess I'm still looking...

He just sounds old school to me. Cash and cheque works. He's right not to trust paypal, everybody gets dicked around by it. Signing up and trying to get your money back out of it is a huge waste of time for one customer. His mark up on the parts and labour isn't worth the hassle so suck it.

The local tractor mechanic is the same way. Cash and cheque keeps his overhead low and banking simple and he never gets a VISA payment reversed on him.

He just sounds old school to me. Cash and cheque works. He's right not to trust paypal, everybody gets dicked around by it. Signing up and trying to get your money back out of it is a huge waste of time for one customer. His mark up on the parts and labour isn't worth the hassle so suck it.

The local tractor mechanic is the same way. Cash and cheque keeps his overhead low and banking simple and he never gets a VISA payment reversed on him.
Understood, and I'm used to dealing with "old school" folks locally. But if you're going to advertise on the internet, you should be prepared for the ways of modern ecommerce. And he already had a PayPal account, his complaints had to do with the fees they charge. PayPal is a business, they have a right to charge for their services. I think their fees are reasonable, and don't mind seeing merchants mark up their prices to recover those fees. Cost of doing business in a manner that protects both parties. If you're a merchant and still want to keep prices low for local or old school customers, offer an equivalent discount for cash.

Just a quick word on paypal, they don't 'hold' the money, they just don't 'release' it to the account holder immediately depending on a myriad of factors. Just semantics. To the guy wanting to get his money, paypal is holding it hostage. To paypal, its semantics, the money is IN your paypal account...(silently--we're just not letting you remove it yet).

Since this guy does not use paypal,they are likely not "releasing" the funds for X days (I've heard 30 days in some cases, comes back to ebay time frames for buyers to dispute sales and other crap ebay/paypal is foisting as requirements on sellers to jump through). Just something else to consider in the big picture.


Alex.

So, you talk this guy into using Paypal--something he's probably not the most happy with. You have a series of 'slow' communications, repeatedly ask him to ship the order, and all this happened in a week? Sounds to me like you are the type of customer some vendors don't need. I've had FAR LESS communication and shipping delays in the order of MONTHS from some of the MOST RESPECTED vendors on THIS SITE.

You are dealing with a niche specialty. If the guy has the parts you want, waiting for him to be comfortable with PayPal is gonna be worth the few days of PATIENCE on your part. You must have noticed by now there's approximately 3 places in the country (in this thread anyways) that may be able to help you...not exactly like Sears & stuff. Oh, and if somebody went through the hassle to keep, store and sell rare parts for an out-of-production gear case, he's probably not a criminal. Also, just because he has a web site, doesn't mean the rest of what he does is of the highest tech available.

You have a set of expectations of vendors, those don't match how this guy does business. From his perspective, you're probably badgering him.

So, you talk this guy into using Paypal--something he's probably not the most happy with. You have a series of 'slow' communications, repeatedly ask him to ship the order, and all this happened in a week? Sounds to me like you are the type of customer some vendors don't need. I've had FAR LESS communication and shipping delays in the order of MONTHS from some of the MOST RESPECTED vendors on THIS SITE.

You are dealing with a niche specialty. If the guy has the parts you want, waiting for him to be comfortable with PayPal is gonna be worth the few days of PATIENCE on your part. You must have noticed by now there's approximately 3 places in the country (in this thread anyways) that may be able to help you...not exactly like Sears & stuff. Oh, and if somebody went through the hassle to keep, store and sell rare parts for an out-of-production gear case, he's probably not a criminal. Also, just because he has a web site, doesn't mean the rest of what he does is of the highest tech available.

You have a set of expectations of vendors, those don't match how this guy does business. From his perspective, you're probably badgering him.
I didn't "talk him" into using PayPal, he agreed after I offered to pay the fees, and he already had an account. He originally wanted a postal money order, and there's no way I'm sending anything that liquid and irrevocable to someone on the other side of the country whose email I found in a forum post. Not with all the hucksters lurking out there.

He also didn't tell me up front that he was going to hold the shipment or give me an estimated ship date, had he done so I would have agreed, knowing it was only a few days. I have plenty of patience when you tell me what to expect up front.

I didn't ask him repeatedly to ship the order, I asked him civilly once, and instead of a "no", which I probably would have grudging accepted, the response I got was an unsolicited refund, and a follow-up email explaining that he refunded me because I was unhappy with a suddenly firm ship date of the next day. I responded, and while I did respectfully note my disappointment, I also offered to salvage the deal. I never heard back.

Very poorly handled on his part, in my opinion. All he did was waste both of our time and net himself an unhappy ex-customer. Instead of the good experience that should have been when someone offers to pay for the wares you advertise. As to the kind of customer I am? I'm the kind with money to spend, and I've already spent it elsewhere. He may have a nice product, but he's not the only game in town.

Now that I've related my experience accurately so others can judge for themselves if they wish to deal with this guy, I'll go crawl back under my rock to hide from the flames :D

Good idea to hide, because being the payee of pay pal SUCKS!
And also calling B.S. on asking ONCE!
at least if your OP was accurate.
I agree with the folks telling you, if the guy has the parts you need, some time getting them shouldn't be an issue.
Especially if only ONE week has transpired. Holy crap, do you think the guy sits at his computer just WAITING on your e-mail? Some people only check e-mail one time per day. By the looks of your original post, it looks like you expect a return e-mail in minutes or hours. A one person shop wouldn't have the computer idling on e-mail all day just for orders and questions. One or two times daily is plenty to check e-mails, unless you have nothing going on in the shop or your life.
I'd have refunded your "money" too.

WTF, do I have to cut 'n paste the email chain? Guess I've found where the neanderthals lurk... :flipoff2:

Cost of doing business in a manner that protects both parties.

Paypal dont protect shit. In fact they are rip off artist. I hate paypal I have lost so much time and money to that shitty company. Wait till they lock your account and you cant do shit about it.

WTF, do I have to cut 'n paste the email chain? Guess I've found where the neanderthals lurk... :flipoff2:

We are all coming to the same conclusion having read your original post. Maybe you should go re-read what you wrote, and then tell us that it doesn't sound like you were impatient, having 3-4 complete conversations (send/respond) within one week. I made one comment that didn't seem to take with you... you have 'your' expectations, this guy is different. Is his business run in a manner likely to attract 90% of the folks with Gear Vendors units?... maybe not. I'm glad you found and have ordered your parts elsewhere. Good Luck with your project!

Oh, and if you convinced him to use paypal by offering to pay his fees, that is called 'talking him into using it'.

You're right, my expectations were different than his. I expected him to ship when he received the payment notice from PayPal. This is the norm when dealing online. Waiting's not the issue, it's the lack of thorough communication that's the issue. It's agreeing to accept PayPal, but not telling me he's going to hold the shipment until he can transfer the funds to his bank. If he'd told me that up front, instead of when I sent him a follow-up message simply asking for a tracking number, I'd have had no problem. Issuing a refund out of the blue when I followed up explaining the problem from my perspective and asked him politely to reconsider is also the issue. From my perspective, they guy's hard to deal with.

So I figured I would relate my experience here for others to see, and help them make an informed decision as to whether to deal with this guy or not. Assistance is one purpose of a forum, right? Had someone who had a similar experience done so prior to my contacting him, I might have had second thoughts, or at least gone into it knowing which questions to ask. And what have I gotten for my trouble? Some constructive criticism which I respect, flames which I can handle, and being called a liar, which is completely out of line. ("calling B.S. on asking ONCE!")

Kind of sours me on the whole experience. Are you folks worth hangin' with, or should I cut my losses and take my experience and skills elsewhere? The jury's still out. But it's folks like you, MrSammi, that make me pause to reconsider.

And one other thing... I've heard a lot of PayPal bashing, some of it probably very well deserved, but not one online alternative proposed. Has anyone ever used Amazon or Google's payment services? Anyone know of any other online payment services? Are any of them better than PayPal?

In your own post on 7-29-2010 you state;
"Two days later I hadn't heard back so I e-mailed him asking for a tracking number,,,,,,,,,"
THEN, 2 paragraphs later you state;
" So I e-mailed him and "nicely" asked him to ship,,,,,,,,,"
The way I count that is TWO times you ADMIT to asking to ship.
WTF do you think asking for a tracking number 2 whole days later infers?
I didn't call you a liar, I just pointed out an OBVIOUS inconsistency in your story.
Sorry you are offended so easily.
BTW, how fast did the other transaction from a different vendor for the same parts take?

I'm not easily offended, but I do think you need to choose your words more wisely. You did it again. that is TWO times you ADMIT That statement assumes I am lying, which is calling me a liar.

Here's a better explanation of what happened, paraphrasing the email exchange:

After I sent the money via PayPal, I hadn't heard anything, so I sent a short message that said "Please email me the tracking number." At that point my expectation was that he had already shipped, or was about to.

I got a reply to the effect of "Hold on, I'm not shipping until PayPal releases my money, which can take several days." Which is when I got concerned, so I called PayPal.

After speaking with them, I followed up with "I called PayPal to get the straight scoop because I never heard of them holding money. They explained that the delay is due to the time it takes for an electronic funds transfer between PayPal and your bank to clear. It's no different than if I had given you a certified check, you'd have to wait for it to clear before you could draw on the funds. They also suggested I open a dispute case, but I'm not that worried. Please reconsider shipping before the payment clears since it's not my fault, it's just the way the banking system works. The funds are already in your PayPal account, and therefore guaranteed."

The only reply I got was "Refunding your payment because you're not happy with a ship date of tomorrow." That and the PayPal refund notice, of course.

This is essentially how it went down. Weird, huh?

I called the other vendor on the phone late Friday. They took my MasterCard over the phone, and will ship UPS on Monday. It will take a week for a ground package from the west coast to reach me, which gives me time to find a good driveshaft shop in the Pittburgh area. It's been a long time since I've done driveline mods like this, and the place I used years ago is closed. Hopefully they've just moved to better digs.

Whenever possible, pay for a phone or mail order with MasterCard, they have the best terms for reversing charges if your stuff doesn't show. Saved my dad's bacon 30+ years ago when J.C. Whitney went bankrupt while we had a parts order pending for the CJ5 project I cut my teeth on. Had a lot of fun in the woods with that one, pulled many a truck out of a jam. :D

wait, I thought this thread was about an overdrive unit???

wait, I thought this thread was about an overdrive unit???

It is, or it was/is. Personally, I don't know why everyone wants to do business via email. If you actually call someone on the phone and talk to them, you will have all of you questions answered in a few minutes instead of emailing back and forth for days while nothing is getting done. But that's just me:flipoff2:
Travis..

I found this thread over a year ago and just found it again today with a google search.

I have a GV unit that is almost new. I mounted on my race car to try and make it go faster, but it didn't work out so I removed it. I have been wanting to mount it behind my 4l80E on my dually, but GV wants $900 for the tube. If I send them my old one they will take either $300-$350 off. Anyway I called the guy and he did not have the part, but seemed like a nice guy. Also I noticed he is the guy on ebay selling most of the GV parts.

Where is this other place you got your parts from?

:D
Hi everone im new here,and the reason im posting is, Ive been reading the post on this topic, I have lots of new and used parts for GEAR VENDOR UNITS.Im not afiliated in any way with GEAR VENDORS. Here is a little history on the Laycock overedrive,Laycock is long gone,they went out of bussiness years ago,A company named GKN bought the name[laycock and all parts and equipment] and built overdrives 30+ years.But july 08 they also gave up building overdrives and sold all the rights to GEAR VENDOR.GEAR VENDOR for the past 25 years bought all the overdrives from GKN.:eek: So now parts
are hard to come by. If any one needs parts or electronincs kits i have them
email me at gpyzak@ix.netcom.com

this is the guy i ordered my parts from. they aren't "cheap". for a rebuild kit with the clutch and the o-rings it was about $300 shipped. and he took credit card just fine. got here in a week or so. no big deal. and helpful on the phone.

not sure if this is the same fella y'all have been talking about. i have yet to tear into it, ironically, i was about to go outside and brave the 106* heat and get started in a few minutes.

i will let you guys know how it goes.

so its all rebuilt. i am having issues with the electronics for the control unit. it seems to be acting a bit strange.

also had to go get the slip yoke seal from the local parts store, but it was only $7. so no biggie.

apparently the electronics were indeed fine. it runs like a champ. this overdrive makes this truck run like a new rig. only really took about 5 hours of total work time to rebuild. very simple unit.

pisses me off that gear vendors is so proprietary. but the dude that sent me the parts was a lifesaver. i recommend him. he is the original responder to this post.

so far so good. still have some leaks, but that is because the threads were stripped out of the main unit where the oil sump bolts in place. it really is a piece of crap. i can't believe gear vendors gets over 3k for one of these things. it ain't built like no atlas. thats for sure.

Well,glad to help aaron,Yes the parts arent cheap! they come from England.And the shipping is exspensive.NOW.standbypowerguy,You turned into a jerk ,after I told you i would only ship when paypal realesed the funds to my (checking account).And then you threatened me.so i promptly refunded you money.I dont need to deal with a jerk....:evil: If you want to talk trash go ahead.

Don't blame you at all !!!!!

Great post! Glad I found it!