BOD Question / competitor input

[ftoy507]

There should be a rule put in place to level the playing field when a 2 car team with the driver and spotter sharing duties.
In other words when two cars come to a comp and the owner of car 1 drives while the owner of car 2 spots. Then car 2 owner drives his car and car 1 owner spots for him. (hope that makes sense)
I feel this is an advantage because they get to see how a near identical car performs on the course. Plus they get to run the course two times.

I definetly would not want to discourage this type of team from competing. We need all the support we can get. But, it does seem to be an advantage.

The first thing I think of to level the playing field is to make these teams go first and second on the WEROCK courses.

The only other thing I can think of is to make them run the courses with 50psi in all tires:flipoff2::flipoff2:

[Pook]

I agree its a crappy deal for the other teams.


I'd push for making whatever car from the team with two cars running second on course is running exhibition only.

[Tarbaby]

I think the rule should be if the spotter has to get into his car directly after spotting, a person from an opposing team should have to bring him a GATORADE!!!! Can we get a ruling BOD?

[benttoy]

How about this (it has happened at at least 2 comps that I saw) car and spotter on course with a 3rd team member on course(opposite end of car) also giving directions to spotter. Same team different promoter to save a back spotter has driver leave course ( no banners or cones in spectator area not considered out of bounds) saved a back yes stupid and dangerous HELL YES
as for a 2 car team switching up on spotting/driving duty's
I say no foul if we had a 2 car team we would do the same.
It is not always possible but that is why we watch the cars run before we,re on course

[RedBullJeep]

First, with the boundaries, there is nothing you can do about that...welcome to Pro Rock and we have asked for that to be changed for years for safety reasons, Bob doesn't really worry about it so as a team, it is what it is, use the area but be smart and as safe as you can be.

W.E.ROCK also allows anyone to yell from the spectator areas to assist in spotting as there is no way to police the crowd. However, once someone steps into the competition area or inside the spectator boundary, it becomes illegal and teams can be penalised. In Pro Rock, there is no real spectator boundary anyway :laughing: With that event, it's a very fuzzy line and I've always said to people, treat that evet as nothing more than practice because often enough, you can toss a coin to determine who the winner will be, that's how "in flux" the rules are. Not that it's a bad thing for that kind of event, but it would never work in W.E.ROCK as people have higher expectations there.

Next, W.E.ROCK outlawed spotting or driving two cars within the same class in late 06 due to the issues mentioned above (even if trading off driver and spotter duties)...they tried to make it work due to convenience and cost for years but it became clear that it gave an advantage in more ways than it became a disadvantage. F Toy is its own game and I am not saying it should be one way or another for your class...I'm just using history as an example.

Your class is getting more competitive and people will begin to try to level the field even more than it already is...except when they see an advantage that benefits them :dustin:

[ftoy507]

Next, W.E.ROCK outlawed spotting or driving two cars within the same class in late 06 due to the issues mentioned above (even if trading off driver and spotter duties)...they tried to make it work due to convenience and cost for years but it became clear that it gave an advantage in more ways than it became a disadvantage. F Toy is its own game and I am not saying it should be one way or another for your class...I'm just using history as an example.

:

Thanks for the input.

Dustin
Since we will not exclude anyone.
Do you see a way to "level the playing field?"
Thanks WEROCK Dustin

[Tarbaby]

Thanks for the input.

Dustin
Since we will not exclude anyone.
Do you see a way to "level the playing field?"
Thanks WEROCK DustinA 2 car team, same spotter for both cars.

[benttoy]

Dustin I am in no way bashing werock or prorock and what was done is water under the bridge. If it happens next season I will bring it to the attenion of the judge

[Brian Ellinger]

Next, W.E.ROCK outlawed spotting or driving two cars within the same class in late 06 due to the issues mentioned above (even if trading off driver and spotter duties)..

Sounds like its illegal to me. Ftoy is a class governed by werock.

[benttoy]

Sounds like its illegal to me. Ftoy is a class governed by werock.

It is indeed

[ftoy507]

A 2 car team, same spotter for both cars.


spotter still has a better perspective on the course the second time.

I think WEROCK is saying it is not legal. If we were to say something.

[Big Rich]

This is something we will need to resolve for next year, at least in the east.

Since there were so few of the f-toys in the east, and the class was run by the BOD, and etc., etc..... we did not enforce the rules like we did in the other classes.

But now that W.E.ROCK is taking full control of the class, according to my convo's with Desert Toy, we do need to look at this for the future...

I do not have a recommendation at this point, but lets open discussion right now on how to handle it within the F-Toy class, maybe a penalty point thing or seconf car exhibition only ? Come up with a bunch of Ideas, let me know

Big

[GLADIATORFAB]

If you are on the team score card, as a driver or spotter thats your team per class, two car teams should only be allowed in two different classes.
If you have a two car team driver /spotter in the same class only one should be allowed in competition other should be exhibition only !!

[Jeep07]

If you are on the team score card, as a driver or spotter thats your team per class, two car teams should only be allowed in two different classes.
If you have a two car team driver /spotter in the same class only one should be allowed in competition other should be exhibition only !!

And the exhibition only car drives the course last if time permits. This way the driver and spotter don't get the true advantage of 2 runs since their 2nd more educated run doesn't count.

[Big Rich]

And the exhibition only car drives the course last if time permits. This way the driver and spotter don't get the true advantage of 2 runs since their 2nd more educated run doesn't count.

I would agree with you on this

Big

[desertoy]

Rich, Dustin mentioned that 2 drivers spotting for each other resulted in more advantages than disadvantages. Can you tell us what advantages you see in this situation?

I have never done this (mainly cause I'm too lazy), but I have seen it done and I really don't see an advantage. Either you can watch the guy in front of you, or you can't. Being on the course stacking rocks doesn't really make that much of a difference.
To me it is no different than 2 teams teaming up because one team is loosing (beacause of breakage or whatever)and the other is in a race for the win. If the loosing team happens to go first, they can take some of the risky lines to see how they work out, so the team going for the win gets to watch. As far as I know this is totally legal and it gains more advantage than 2 drivers spotting for each other.

Either way, the Formula Toy class now falls inline with all of the other WE Rock classes. If it's illegal, then so be it. I don't want to see any exceptions like this just for F-Toy.

[ftoy507]

if it's illegal, then so be it. I don't want to see any exceptions like this just for f-toy.



Run last exhibition only. I would rather compete against someone rather than a guy who could not find a spotter. Heck, I will spot for him and compete against him before I run by myself.

[RedBullJeep]

Once I have been on the course, a few feet from a full size vehicle, making the calls and seeing what my choices do, I have a clear advantage the next time through...it works from the driver's seat or the spotter's viewpoint. Yes, it's hell work, but to those that are fit enough to handle it, it can play out in their favor. In fact, I would rather run first and second on every course, than to spot a single car and follow someone else all day, if I'm looking for an advantage. You know it, 1/2" to the left of right can make a difference and you see it far clearer when you are right there and making the calls.

Many spotters would not benefit because they spot on gut feelings...those that spot from the technical side will see a clear advantage and on average, won't make the same mistake twice.

And as a disclaimer, I am only offering reasoning for the rule in other classes...NOT making a suggestion for F Toy. F Toy may have another goal entirely and continuing to define and work toward those goals is something that is very important. If it's purely competition that the class is about, your decision on a rule like this would probably be different than if it's about fun and affordability, with competition being very secondary. I've witnessed a number of teams really stepping it up competitively and if the class intention is still just fun and afforadbility, you need to make that your motto so those teams expecting tighter rules like you'd see in Pro Mod, will know not to expect that in F Toy.

[dino1967]

if say team 1 spotter gets hurt and teams 4 spotter stepped in to help would that make team 1 exibition only?
or would step in spotter be just some old joe that has never spotted before?
or would team 1 be out of the comp because his team doesn't have the original spotter?

[ftoy507]

as the WEROCK rule is now. That would be illegal.

I think 2-3 cars and you should ease up on the rules and have fun.
Get 5-10 and all rules must be enforced for the sake of fair competition.

[mtbrjon]

2.2: Drivers
Drivers from one vehicle may spot for another competitor, but not the same registered vehicle
with a different driver.

Is there another rule that I don't know about?

[ftoy507]

2.2: Drivers
Drivers from one vehicle may spot for another competitor, but not the same registered vehicle
with a different driver.

Is there another rule that I don't know about?

I looked at that last night also.
The rule does not read like it would outlaw the situation described above.

[skonkerd]

I would agree with you on this

Big
This sound like I just spent 8k and 6 mo to run for show, or run without a spotter, or 3: find a spotter at last minute that has no clue what me or my rig is capable of, I might as well throw in a bottle of vodka, and call it a trip to tellico.Yup I guess that just leveled the playing field.

[Pook]

This sound like I just spent 8k and 6 mo to run for show, or run without a spotter, or 3: find a spotter at last minute that has no clue what me or my rig is capable of, I might as well throw in a bottle of vodka, and call it a trip to tellico.Yup I guess that just leveled the playing field.


:shaking:


giving up already? My spotter form last year can't spot in 09, and I have a few people interested in spotting. I'm sure you could find someone in the next 3-4 months.

[toyotanuts]

This sound like I just spent 8k and 6 mo to run for show, or run without a spotter, or 3: find a spotter at last minute that has no clue what me or my rig is capable of, I might as well throw in a bottle of vodka, and call it a trip to tellico.Yup I guess that just leveled the playing field.

:shaking:


giving up already? My spotter form last year can't spot in 09, and I have a few people interested in spotting. I'm sure you could find someone in the next 3-4 months.

yeah, don't give up! Find a friend you wheel with to go or maybe someone that would like to start going. You can get him ready before april. If not we can find someone who knows f-toys to spot.:)

[Pook]

My last spotter I met on a wheelign trip to the hammers only time we had ever hung out was a random meeting in California, I didn't have a spotter for Goldendale in 07' so posted up on a couple local boards and one in WA state and he volunteered. Next thing you know we did the 08 season and have been good friends ever since.

get out there and knock on some doors and make a couple posts looking for one.

[Jeep07]

2.2: Drivers
Drivers from one vehicle may spot for another competitor, but not the same registered vehicle
with a different driver.

Is there another rule that I don't know about?

This sound like I just spent 8k and 6 mo to run for show, or run without a spotter, or 3: find a spotter at last minute that has no clue what me or my rig is capable of, I might as well throw in a bottle of vodka, and call it a trip to tellico.Yup I guess that just leveled the playing field.

Unless they change the rules it looks like your good to go

[Irish Style]

3: find a spotter at last minute that has no clue what me or my rig is capable of

If you pay for my airfare and beer/rum, I'll spot for you. I know what the rig is capable of and I could probably get you through a few situations you didn't know you were capable of. Unless we are invited to Farmington, it could be my only chance to beat up on east coast guys.

[scottiebobbie]

This sound like I just spent 8k and 6 mo to run for show, or run without a spotter, or 3: find a spotter at last minute that has no clue what me or my rig is capable of, I might as well throw in a bottle of vodka, and call it a trip to tellico.Yup I guess that just leveled the playing field.



why not have cj spot for you :confused:

[skonkerd]

yeah, don't give up! Find a friend you wheel with to go or maybe someone that would like to start going. You can get him ready before april. If not we can find someone who knows f-toys to spot.:)
I will do what it takes, but it is just frustrating when you do the build up as a team, then the rules get changed and we have to adapt. I know thats life, but I wanted to make my opinon known.

[Tarbaby]

I will do what it takes, but it is just frustrating when you do the build up as a team, then the rules get changed and we have to adapt. I know thats life, but I wanted to make my opinon known.
Life is good skunkerd.

[Brian Ellinger]

2.2: Drivers
Drivers from one vehicle may spot for another competitor, but not the same registered vehicle
with a different driver.

Is there another rule that I don't know about?

Not to pick on you John, but it seems forgotten too oftern that ftoy rules are IN ADDITION TO WEROCK RULES. They are not intended to be the only rules these get tech'd with. For instance, head room, is a werock rule, as is roof thickness, material for the firewall, etc.

[mtbrjon]

Not to pick on you John, but it seems forgotten too oftern that ftoy rules are IN ADDITION TO WEROCK RULES. They are not intended to be the only rules these get tech'd with. For instance, head room, is a werock rule, as is roof thickness, material for the firewall, etc.

Ok then show me an Ftoy rule that states that I can't have 2 cars and 2 team members that swap off as spotter and driver. If a request is made of the BOD to instate such a rule then that's fine but I have never seen anything in WERock or Ftoy that states this. Right now I don't see it as even bending of the current rules. Besides none of the Ftoy rules apply to actual competition. They are all related to vehicle specs.This doesn't matter to me at all right now since I don't have 1 Ftoy much less 2 but I would still like to end this discussion.:D

[mtbrjon]

I will do what it takes, but it is just frustrating when you do the build up as a team, then the rules get changed and we have to adapt. I know thats life, but I wanted to make my opinon known.

I'll spot for you.:evil:

[ftoy507]

Maybe Dustin from WEROCK will chime back in. I cannot find a ruling on theis matter either.

[Irish Style]

Besides none of the Ftoy rules apply to actual competition. They are all related to vehicle specs.

Window nets and neck braces.

Maybe Dustin from WEROCK will chime back in. I cannot find a ruling on theis matter either.


Next, W.E.ROCK outlawed spotting or driving two cars within the same class in late 06 due to the issues mentioned above (even if trading off driver and spotter duties)...they tried to make it work due to convenience and cost for years but it became clear that it gave an advantage in more ways than it became a disadvantage.

Sounds like Dustin already chimed in. I couldn't find it in the rulebook, but I just skimed through.

[mtbrjon]

=Irish Style;9072236]Window nets and neck braces.

Those items are still tech/vehicle "static" spec items and not really related to "dynamic" actions on the course.

=Sounds like Dustin already chimed in. I couldn't find it in the rulebook, but I just skimed through.

That's because it's not in there. Just the rule about one driver spotting for another driver in the same vehicle. I went back to look after reading what Dustin posted.

[skonkerd]

yeah, don't give up! Find a friend you wheel with to go or maybe someone that would like to start going. You can get him ready before april. If not we can find someone who knows f-toys to spot.:)
Well, i thought that i found my spotter, but he didnt show- up sat. for 112's first trip out of the shop, and he never has answered any of my phone calls, but he has great personality. As far as using someone i wheel with the only one availible drives f-toy 111

[skonkerd]

why not have cj spot for you :confused:
hell scott i didnt think of that. didnt he spot for you in that u tube video?

[skonkerd]

hell scott i didnt think of that. didnt he spot for you in that u tube video?
as amatter of fact,between you and jamerson and and all of tarbaby's bunch i am sure we will have someone there, i am just stoked the damn thing actually moved under its own power this weekend