a friend of a friend brought some of her dad's old body armor. i don't know what level it was but it had two soft kevlar panels in the front and two in the back. it was made in 1980 and said it was good to stop 357 mag rounds on the label.

the friend shot at it with some .40 165 grain hollow points but i don't know what kind they were. they didn't penetrate the first panel and bounced off. it was interesting that the bullets folded in on then selves instead of mushrooming out. they also shot at it with a few .45 blazer rounds with out even breaking the surface. i shot at it with .45 blazer out of my 16" barreled hk usc. the bullet sure looked like it hit hard by the way the vest moved but it just broke the surface. it didn't even come close to penetrating the first panel. next was some m193 5.56 and i had a pretty good idea of what was going to happen with that. i shot it dead center from 25 yards and the vest didn't even move. it went through the front two panels, a stuffed animal, the rear two panels, a piece of 16 ga sheet metal and into the dirt back stop. the hole in the sheet metal looked just like it had been shot with nothing in front of it.

unfortunately i didn't have my camera out there today but i did come home with a few of the recovered bullets. if i knew they were bringing the vest i would have been better prepared for testing but it was a fun experiment non the less.

the bullet on the left is the .45 blazer round fired from my 16" hk usc. the two on the right were the unknown (to me) brand 165 grain .40 bullets.

look like golden saber's

look like golden saber's

That's what I was going to say.

They are. Definitely Rem. Golden Saber's.

even though that 45 didnt penetrate, to hell with it not breaking a few ribs, no?

very interesting on the HP 40's.

even though that 45 didnt penetrate, to hell with it not breaking a few ribs, no?

very interesting on the HP 40's.

you definatly would be hurting big time from the .45 out of the 16" barrel. broken ribs would not surprise me at all. the same bullet out of a pistol would most likely still hurt bad but there sure was a lot more movement of the vest with the carbine.

The odds are good that the round is traveling roughly the same speed out of a 5" 1911, as it is out of his carbine.

Anyone care to guess the velocity difference between a Glock 34, and a 16" 9mm Bushmaster, using 115gr WWB? I've chrono'd both, back to back.

*hint, guess less than 20 FPS

Over-the-counter commerical pistol-caliber ammo is designed to be fully up to speed by the time it's 5" down the barrel, from what I've seen. Any increase in velocity from the longer barrel was apparently negated by the extra friction. I guess. *shrug*

The odds are good that the round is traveling roughly the same speed out of a 5" 1911, as it is out of his carbine.

Anyone care to guess the velocity difference between a Glock 34, and a 16" 9mm Bushmaster, using 115gr WWB? I've chrono'd both, back to back.

*hint, guess less than 20 FPS

Over-the-counter commerical pistol-caliber ammo is designed to be fully up to speed by the time it's 5" down the barrel, from what I've seen. Any increase in velocity from the longer barrel was apparently negated by the extra friction. I guess. *shrug*


i'll try to remember to bring the usc and a .45 pistol with me next time i have the chrony out.

That's interesting. What that'd indicate to me is that a magnum type powder could make .45 perform much better out of a carbine or rifle.

Heh, you put body armor on a stuffed animal. :laughing:

That's interesting. What that'd indicate to me is that a magnum type powder could make .45 perform much better out of a carbine or rifle.

Not necessarily. I think you mean a slower burning powder. Some "magnum" powders are designed to get the most out of a magnum in a short barrel. Check out Vihtavuori N-310, 320, 330, 340, and 350. N310, for example, has a faster burn rate than Win 231, which is widely accepted as a standard powder for .45ACP pistol loads.

I found a kevlar on the side of a tank trail on the way to the range one time.
We went hot prior to the students showing up and I hit it twice from 20yrds with my 1911. Collapsed one side of it, but didn't penetrate.
Carried it out to 50m, placed in front of some sand bags and then shot it again with a burst from an M60. Totally shreaded it.Some of the rounds penetrated completely through both sides, some entered one side of the helmet and then travelled through the kevlar from side to side, followed the curve.

Heh, you put body armor on a stuffed animal. :laughing:

it was a very important stuffed animal:D

I would like to see the results from something in between.
44 mag, 500 S&W, 444, 45-70, etc.
Something big, but moving faster.

45 ACP is around 900 FPS.
Take that same bullet and speed it up to 1500 to 1900 FPS.

I suspect the armor would stop it, but it would be a big impact.

I would also like to see something like a 22-250 with a v-max or ballistic tip bullet.
Then a 7mm mag or 300 mag with a v-max or ballistic tip.

I don't think the armor would stop .44, .454, .45-70, etc.

It might not even stop .357 mag FMJs if it's not rated for it. I'm surprised that it stopped that .45 FMJ, honestly...

It might not even stop .357 mag FMJs if it's not rated for it. I'm surprised that it stopped that .45 FMJ, honestly...

I am not. You are talking about a 230 gr with a muzzle velocity less than 900 fps. I beleive you are looking at 400 or 500 ft/lbs of energy - IIRC it is about the same energy as a 9mm. That is not much energy at all.

The large diameter creates more surface area for the armor to arrest the bullet. It is really not much different than any other non-magnum handgun cartridge. There is nothing special about a 45 acp.

I am not. You are talking about a 230 gr with a muzzle velocity less than 900 fps. I beleive you are looking at 400 or 500 ft/lbs of energy - IIRC it is about the same energy as a 9mm. That is not much energy at all.

The large diameter creates more surface area for the armor to arrest the bullet. It is really not much different than any other non-magnum handgun cartridge. There is nothing special about a 45 acp.

I wasn't referring to the caliber. It just so happened that the FMJ bullet was a .45 in this instance. Most vests won't stop FMJ ammo at all. This one must have been one of the better-rated vests.

I'm willing to bet that a 110 grain FMJ from my 4" model 586 would go right though at least one layer of that vest if loaded with H110 and magnum primers.

...110 grain FMJ from my 4" model 586 would go right though at least one layer of that vest if loaded with H110 and magnum primers.

**ziiiiip**

What're you getting with that, 1400 fps or so?

I am not. You are talking about a 230 gr with a muzzle velocity less than 900 fps. I beleive you are looking at 400 or 500 ft/lbs of energy - IIRC it is about the same energy as a 9mm. That is not much energy at all.

The large diameter creates more surface area for the armor to arrest the bullet. It is really not much different than any other non-magnum handgun cartridge. There is nothing special about a 45 acp.

IIRC the cross-section of the bullet has a good deal to do with how it performs on soft armor. A typical rifle bullet is long and pointed which puts more energy in smaller area to "wiggle" it's way through the threads.

Typical handgun bullets have a larger face

I don't think the armor would stop .44, .454, .45-70, etc.

It might not even stop .357 mag FMJs if it's not rated for it. I'm surprised that it stopped that .45 FMJ, honestly...

i wouldn't be surprised at all if it stopped those rounds even though it isn't rated for it. each panel has several layers of kevlar and there are two panels on the front and two on the rear. the .40s and .45s barely broke the skin of the first panel. the label said that a single panel was good for 38 spl and a few other rounds but i didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it. i wish i knew they were bringing the vest out there and i would have been better prepared with more caliber choices and a camera.

IIRC the cross-section of the bullet has a good deal to do with how it performs on soft armor. A typical rifle bullet is long and pointed which puts more energy in smaller area to "wiggle" it's way through the threads.

Typical handgun bullets have a larger face


i think you are correct. i am pretty sure that many bullet resistant vests are not stab rated. the sharp point of a knife being thrust into it has a higher psi than a handgun bullet. velocity is also very powerful when it comes to defeating armor.

IIRC the cross-section of the bullet has a good deal to do with how it performs on soft armor. A typical rifle bullet is long and pointed which puts more energy in smaller area to "wiggle" it's way through the threads.

Typical handgun bullets have a larger face

A lot of factors increase the effectiveness of a rifle bullet. That is why I said I would like to see some big bore, slow moving rifle rounds.

A typical rifle bullet has a smaller diameter, more efficient profile, and a lot more energy. I have read when a rifle bullet gets below 900 ft-lbs it is considered ineffective for taking game. Most pistols don't get near that much energy.

I would really like to see small diameter, extremely high speed, with a very ballistic bullet like the 22-250 or 220 swift.
I would also like to see something like a 45-70, 444, or "super magnum" pistol like a 500, 460, or 454. To see basically the same profile as the 45 ACP bullet cranked up to max speed.

Then for effect show a 7mm mag or 300 mag with a very ballistic bullet such as the v-max or ballistic tip for reference.

i think you are correct. i am pretty sure that many bullet resistant vests are not stab rated. the sharp point of a knife being thrust into it has a higher psi than a handgun bullet. velocity is also very powerful when it comes to defeating armor.

I tested body armor for a bit in the military and if you know how Kevlar fibers work you will be amazed. I had it explained to me once in the military but a cool Discovery Channel show actualy taught me the theory better then the manufacturer :flipoff2:

Knife goes through soft vests easily because the number of threads the blad contacts/cuts is minimal.

A smaller calliber round will penitrate better then a larger one with more energy.

HP designes blow thier wad rapidly on fiber design body armor. The HP cavity also gives the mass another place to go as in the pics above. Where as FMJ will usualy just contort but stay intact.

The fibers work like plywood each taking a bit of the energy and spreading it out over several inches. So when a round contacts those fiber the energy is spread out of a huge area.

44mag I think would be a so-so stopper on an average vest. My 45LC with old school lead bullets in the 1200fps range will rip through a hard kevlar hemlet, but I never tried out a magnum on a vest. The 454 and 45-70 rounds with FMJ would most likely penitrate one side and blow material into the wearer...the injuries would be horiffic. We saw this with rifle rounds and the test surface under the vest was ugly.

Rifle rounds such as the 5.56,7.62 etc. have a smaller surface and higher speeds then handgun rounds and penitrate side one easily w/o plates and sometimes side two. The M2 just went through both sides, even doubled up vests. The "Sappy" plates are steel/alluminum/or ceramic and deform the round before it even hits the vest. This slows it down and dramaticly increases the surface area of the round. The bad part is that every hit the plate takes reduces its effectiveness. This is also true of vests since fibers have been strained/torn. Swet/time/dirt also break down vests also.

Next time shoot that thing with your rifle at 300 yards/FMJ and you wont doubt the effectiveness of it :grinpimp:

Next time shoot that thing with your rifle at 300 yards/FMJ and you wont doubt the effectiveness of it :grinpimp:

i think now i need to see if i can get the vest back from them for some further testing. hell if i can get the vest back, maybe i'll bring it with me to the next 1k yard practice session. my 300 mag bullet is still traveling 1650+ fps at 1k yards with 1280+ ft/lbs energy. i think it would still be bad news for the stuffed animal wearing the vest. possibly even the stuffed animal standing behind him:D

**ziiiiip**

What're you getting with that, 1400 fps or so?

I don't load 110s with magnum powder. I have loaded 158s with them, and 130s. I really don't shoot my revolver that much, but I do enjoy shooting magnum loads from time to time.

i wouldn't be surprised at all if it stopped those rounds even though it isn't rated for it. each panel has several layers of kevlar and there are two panels on the front and two on the rear. the .40s and .45s barely broke the skin of the first panel. the label said that a single panel was good for 38 spl and a few other rounds but i didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it. i wish i knew they were bringing the vest out there and i would have been better prepared with more caliber choices and a camera.

That is really impressive to say the least.