For those curious about hi-steer on a TJ - yes it can be done and it's not that difficult. The swaybar links need to be cut and relocated but that's about it.

Draglink is 1.25" OD/0.25" ID 4130 chrome sleeved with 1.5" OD 4130.

The tierod is 1.25" OD/0.25" ID 4130 and needs some spacers adding and it too will be sleeved with 1.5" 4130.

Great high misallignment rod ends and hour glass spacers from HM engineering (thanks for the tip earlier <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> ).

Turned out great and drives real nice with no bump steer that I can detect (even though the draglink is flatter than the trackbar)but it will be replaced with a triangulated front end soon anyway.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1239961&a=13710387&p=53680832&Sequence=0&res=high

More pics of the hi-steer setup and the hi-rockram mount available via www.photopoint.com (http://www.photopoint.com)
Log in via my email colin_johnson@dsldesigns.net via the top right method.

DS

Originally posted by DippStick:
<STRONG>For those curious about hi-steer on a TJ - yes it can be done and it's not that difficult. The swaybar links need to be cut and relocated but that's about it.

Draglink is 1.25" OD/0.25" ID 4130 chrome sleeved with 1.5" OD 4130.

The tierod is 1.25" OD/0.25" ID 4130 and needs some spacers adding and it too will be sleeved with 1.5" 4130.

Great high misallignment rod ends and hour glass spacers from HM engineering (thanks for the tip earlier <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> ).

Turned out great and drives real nice with no bump steer that I can detect (even though the draglink is flatter than the trackbar)but it will be replaced with a triangulated front end soon anyway. DS</STRONG>

What do you mean by triangulated. As in are u moving the draglink attatchemnt onto the tirod to match track bar angle, (simular to OEM) or what? Who did you get the piece for the top of the Knukcles from? Who is HM Engineering? I question the strength of two attachements on the same bolt such as your rock ram and drag link on same bolt. That is a lot of stress on that one piece.

<STRONG>More pics of the hi-steer setup and the hi-rockram mount available via www.photopoint.com (http://www.photopoint.com) DS</STRONG>

Who's other rig to you have pics of.. The Hsteer, chopped fenders, Red TJ. That set up is sweet.

DS, nice TJ............May I add a few "comments" please, and by all means, I am
no expert, and don't wish to offend in any
way.

You've got a huge amount of stress on that
bolt on the knuckle... It appears to be
about a 5" long bolt, with the drag-link
mounted in the top of it...
I'm afraid if you don't support the top of
that bolt somehow, you will break it pretty
easily. And if you've chosen a grade 8 bolt,
for the application, you might want to re-think it. A grade 5 will offer more "bend"
before breaking. the grade 8 is more brittle
and would break quicker.

I'd carry some spare bolts when you first
go out and wheel that new set-up...

Hope it works out for you....

Sherpa

Originally posted by SHERPA RIG:
<STRONG>DS, nice TJ............May I add a few "comments" please, and by all means, I am
no expert, and don't wish to offend in any
way.

You've got a huge amount of stress on that
bolt on the knuckle... It appears to be
about a 5" long bolt, with the drag-link
mounted in the top of it...
I'm afraid if you don't support the top of
that bolt somehow, you will break it pretty
easily. And if you've chosen a grade 8 bolt,
for the application, you might want to re-think it. A grade 5 will offer more "bend"
before breaking. the grade 8 is more brittle
and would break quicker.

I'd carry some spare bolts when you first
go out and wheel that new set-up...

Hope it works out for you....

Sherpa</STRONG>

OMG you are are about to start the grade 5 v's grade 8 debate all over again.....the humanity

<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

I'm already thinking of bracing the draglink bolt so that it is connected top and bottom.

This is the first take and simillar to other setups I've see and they leave the bolt as is.

By triangulated I mean throw away the trackbar and use a 4 link or 3 link for the upper arms.

"The Hsteer, chopped fenders, Red TJ. That set up is sweet."

That is CJ Lagos rig. He gave me some pointers when doing my hi-steer.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1239961&a=13271370&p=50382699&Sequence=0&res=high
Notice he has his draglink connected by one bolt too and you don't think his is weak ?

DS

[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: DippStick ]

[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: DippStick ]

how can you call this a high steer... your tie rod isn't moved from the stock location right?

Your tierod doesn't steer does it dummy ?

DS

Originally posted by DippStick:
<STRONG>Your tierod doesn't steer does it dummy ?

DS</STRONG>
All of the hy-steer setups I have seen move both the tierod and draglink up out to harms way. At least that is what us Toyota guys call "Hy-Steer"

Originally posted by DippStick:
<STRONG>Your tierod doesn't steer does it dummy ?

DS</STRONG>

Maybe not directly, but it is connected to your "steering" knuckles, so it does serve some point in the "steering" equation. Would be nice to see it up out of the way mounted up there along with the drag link. I have the tie rod and drag link up on top of the knuckle in a true Hy-steer fashion, but that is on a CJ with a 44. Maybe that can't be done on a TJ? Overall looks good though.

[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: Fat Cat ]

Originally posted by DippStick:
<STRONG>Your tierod doesn't steer does it dummy ?

DS</STRONG>
What does it do then? <IMG SRC="smilies/clown.gif" border="0">
If the tie rod and draglink are moved up I call it hi-steer. If just the draglink is moved I would call it crossover.

Originally posted by DippStick:
<STRONG> http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1239961&a=13271370&p=50382699&Sequence=0&res=high
Notice he has his draglink connected by one bolt too and you don't think his is weak ?

DS
</STRONG>

No, because his steering ram isn't putting any pressure through that bolt... on yours all the ram assist pressure is on the bolt.

Originally posted by Fullsizes Rule:
<STRONG>No, because his steering ram isn't putting any pressure through that bolt... on yours all the ram assist pressure is on the bolt.</STRONG>


BINGO! we have another engineer!

My thoughts exactly! Only a matter of time

This is another goodr eason to NOT put the ram on the pitman...

You get the tires in a bind, and they are NOT moving, but your super duper rock ram is gonna push (or pull) SUPER DUPER HARD against that drag link anyway.... wonder where it is gonna fail <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0">

Other than that, looking good, just consider the criticisms and see how it all fits in together <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by DippStick:
<STRONG>Your tierod doesn't steer does it dummy ?

DS</STRONG>


If the tie rod doesn't steer then how does the left wheel turn dummy?

1) Please stop perpetuating this silly myth about Grade 5 being a better choice than Grade 8 - I'm not going to bother to explain it - the information is out there 0 just be 100% assured that Grade 5 is NOT a better choice.

2) I've said this before, i'll say it again, and I'm sure all sorts of people will get a knot in their panties about it. But here goes:

It is not correct to mount steering arms in single shear as shown on DS and CJs rigs. The proper way is to mount it in double shear.

In any case, it is not correct to use SAE grade bolts, be they 5 or 8 - the fit in the hole is simply too imprecise to assure a tight, stress free joint. Your choice is to use either a correct spec AN bolt, and have the holes in the parts not drilled, but drilled undersize and reamed to final size...OR, the cheaper and easier method is exactly what the OEM's do - use a tapered fit, like in stock TRE's.

A lot of times when guys justify using Heims / rod ends in linkages ( I WAS one of them - noy anymore) you see them quoting their use in Trophy trucks and race cars, but in those case, you will notice 4 things (at least in the good one's you will)

1) The extensicve use of double shear mounting
2) The use of correct spec fasteners, such as AN bolts, along with holes reamed to size, not drilled.
3) Often the rod end will appear to bolted on, but in fact is mounted with a tapered stuf that has a stright shank for the rod end
4) Rigerous inspection and teardown schedules, along with frequent part replacement

Just my $.02

BillaVista,

Good points.

Now back to what works, single shear steering components work ok. Sure, it's not the most ideal, but it works. The thickness of the steering arms give the bolt enough support so that it doesn't HAVE to be in double shear.

Don't get me wrong, I intend to make all my steering joints double shear, but in the meantime it works as is. I've never heard of someone breaking a bolt on a single shear steering application. This DOES NOT include an improperly setup system. By that I mean not using misalignment spacers and allowing the heim to max out.

Dippstick,
Make sure you do some investigating on the 3-link/4-link front end. They keep the axle centered under the vehicle at all times. Your trackbar swings the axle side to side quite a bit, which really helps in terms of clearance inside the wheel well on full compression. I have very limited clearance in the back of mine with a triangulated 4link, even with full width axles. I personally prefer the solid connection of a trackbar. Why don't you just build a new trackbar around your draglink?

One thing to note, I'd put a washer under the bolt head so that if the rod end fails it won't fall off.

CJ

CJ,

I agree that doing it the way you, DS, and I myself (first design) have done it is not necessarily guaranteed to fail, not necesarily "weak" per se, etc. Just not the "best" way.

I think we (as 4x4 builder) get away with it where race car builders do not is the size and weight issue. Where we have no problems using 5/8 and 3/4 bolts and 1" or more thick arms this would never fly on a car, as it would be way too heavy. So, since we use such "oversize" parts, we may be able to get away with an imperfect design. There may be play, there may be excessive stress, but it just may not lead to failure in the life cycle of the parts we're using.

Or I could just be completely full of it! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

But I do really like the use of TRE's for their greasability, pre-load on the ball, tapered stud mounting, plenty of travel, etc. - they just seem right and elegant for the job to me.

Explain TRE for the newbies reading threads like this. Oh and for me too.... <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> I suk with abreviations. Guess it's early onset Olztimmers Disease.

Ok... since True High steer moves the tie rod to the top of the knuckle also, to do this then the hefty piece that is used; in these examples, on top of the knuckles to attach the drag link, could be designed to also attach the tie rod. To do this I envision using an inverted letter P shape so that both drag and tie rod could be attached in the circular portion. You would attach to the top of the P in one hole the drag link and in another hole, but below, you attach the tie rod. Assuming u have a flat top knuckle to attach the P too... I just checked my TJ Dana 30.. go figure.. no its not flat top. I would think that due to clearance issues on the TJ you would then have to use Curie’s sway bar. (is it called Rockrunner? I forget)
http://sc.communities.msn.com/tn/51/11/CheckmyshortsItsaJeepThing/1/7.jpg

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: coachgeo3 ]

TRE
Tie Rod End

Originally posted by incontrol:
<STRONG>TRE
Tie Rod End</STRONG>

DUHHHHHHH fawkin olztimmers disease... <IMG SRC="smilies/crybaby2.gif" border="0">

OK.. what is the thingy called that you can purchase now that sleeves a round hole making it tapered? <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by coachgeo3:
<STRONG>
OK.. what is the thingy called that you can purchase now that sleeves a round hole making it tapered? <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

reamer

Originally posted by DippStick:
<STRONG>Your tierod doesn't steer does it dummy ?

DS</STRONG>

<IMG SRC="smilies/flipoff.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/flipoff.gif" border="0"> what the fawk does it do?seems to me your tie rod will still get beat to hell there, but you can go ahead and call it a HIGH STEER if you would like to.

Originally posted by Benny:
<STRONG>reamer</STRONG>

ahhhh isnt that what you make the whole with? I thought some one now had out a sleeve that makes a regular drilled hole into a tappered hole.

Of course if a reamer works just like a drill bit thats fine with me. Obviously you have to have some way of limiting your drill depth so your exit hole is the right width. Where do you get bolts for tapered holes and what is the proper name for such bots. is that the AN bolts mentioned earlier in this post?

Originally posted by coachgeo3:
<STRONG>OK.. what is the thingy called that you can purchase now that sleeves a round hole making it tapered? <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

I'll call it scary <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">

Billavista wrote:
"I think we (as 4x4 builder) get away with it where race car builders do not is the size and weight issue. Where we have no problems using 5/8 and 3/4 bolts and 1" or more thick arms this would never fly on a car, as it would be way too heavy. So, since we use such "oversize" parts, we may be able to get away with an imperfect design. There may be play, there may be excessive stress, but it just may not lead to failure in the life cycle of the parts we're using."

That's exactly right. Usually we build things rhidiculously overkill. Mostly to hold up to being drug over rocks...but the point is even though the design might be scary, more often than not it is built so overkill that failure isn't a huge concern.

I'm definately not saying that the single shear heim is totally wrong. In one of the chassis books, there is a picture of a rod end in single shear and it talks about how well the bolt is supported(in our case, the steering arm), so there isn't a huge need for the double shear mount.

CJ

DS,,

Nice setup.

You gots lots of thoughts moving on this one.

True m8, all intelligent points have been well noted and digested <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

The first thing my m8 Phil said when he saw it is 'this heim should be double shear' so I guess thats the first point to improve on.

On the tierod, if its 1.25"/0.25" sleeved with 1.5" chromoly, do any of you seriously think I care if I hit it ?

Now I could have moved it up on two arms like CJs but it serves no purpose to me.
I'd also need to get two new arms and lose the swaybar mounts (or be more creative with the mount location).

My main purpose was to lower the draglink angle, which I've succeeded in doing.

DS

[

On the tierod, if its 1.25"/0.25" sleeved with 1.5" chromoly, do any of you seriously think I care if I hit it ?


DS[/QB][/QUOTE]
If your hard enough on it it will bend.you just wanted your drag link up to stop bump steer cause its a pavement pounder <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

It does look like it will work, Mr. Stick, it just isn't optimal. I won't tell the rocks if you don't. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

In the real world, perfect solutions rarely are optimal... it is a matter of degrees. Double-shear is technically more correct -- as are degree-reamed holes and TREs.

Regardless, if you 'wheel that setup hard, a spare steering components for the knuckle might provide good peace of mind... just in case the rocks notice that your steering isn'tt all above the knuckles. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

Randii

Randi,

I understand and this is what I intend to do.

The other way to look it is as a mechanical fuse. If something is going to give, I'd much rather a bolt than ripping the arm off the knuckle or destroying the pitman arm.

BTW my 'pavement pounder' has been all the way through Rubicon twice and is going back this weekend - but first Barret Lake.
How about you ? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

DS

Originally posted by DippStick:
<STRONG>...BTW my 'pavement pounder' has been all the way through Rubicon twice and is going back this weekend - but first Barret Lake.
How about you ? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

DS</STRONG>

I will have my junk down there this weekend too. Time for another Fordyce/Rubicon/Barret trip <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by DippStick:
<STRONG>Randi,
BTW my 'pavement pounder' has been all the way through Rubicon twice and is going back this weekend - but first Barret Lake.
How about you ? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">
DS</STRONG>

Dude, he wheels a fawking Amigo... no matter what he does it's cool

shit man, my piece of shit almost made it all the way through twice, but then at cadillac fuckin t-case broke! haha, oh well! one of these days!
-Nate

BTW my 'pavement pounder' has been all the way through Rubicon twice and is going back this weekend - but first Barret Lake.
How about you ? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">
My pavement pounder has been to AZ, CA, NV, OR, UT, and WA... <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

That said, it has been parked in the driveway since May -- no time to fix it... so ya got me there. Guess yours must be bigger than mine. <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

I wuz trying to be respectful, Mr. Stick -- what bunched your panties?

Randii (gloves off)

Dude, he wheels a fawking Amigo... no matter what he does it's cool
I beg to differ... with as much driveway time as I've tallied this year, I don't claim to 'wheel at all! <IMG SRC="smilies/blush2.gif" border="0">

...but I park a DAMN mean Amigo! <IMG SRC="smilies/grinpimp.gif" border="0">

Randii

Randi,

I think it was those damned suspenders ballcrusher made me wear.
Haven't got them off yet <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

DS

Originally posted by TJoop:
<STRONG>I will have my junk down there this weekend too. Time for another Fordyce/Rubicon/Barret trip <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Christ... you might as put a

<IMG SRC="smilies/rainbow.gif" border="0"> sticker on your jeep, get Ca plates and you will fit right in down here! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by CHOKE:
<STRONG>Christ... you might as put a

<IMG SRC="smilies/rainbow.gif" border="0"> sticker on your jeep, get Ca plates and you will fit right in down here! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

<IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> I think? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">