Ok so I'm going to coil the front end of my toy to try to match or come close to the articulation of the rear. Can't decide whether or not to go with a 3 link or with a 4 link. What are the advantages of both? Right now I am running aerostar coils in the rear and I am pondering eb coils in the front. Anyone know of a soft coil to run? Aerostars in the front would be killer, waaaay to soft.

have not seen a coiled front end that i like yet.leaf springs up front seem to be the ticket

Bigfeck is using some sort of Wild Horses coils in the front of his toy. You might want to ask what he's using and how he likes it. bigfeck@gnrac.net BTW- 3 link with a panhard bar seems to be the hot ticket.

Well I love my 4 linked Aerostar coiled Willys front and rear end. It has a Chevy V6 in it so it might be close to weight of the Toyota. It is very soft, but that is the best part about it all.

http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/images2/1004.jpg

-Sam

Originally posted by camo:
<STRONG>have not seen a coiled front end that i like yet.leaf springs up front seem to be the ticket</STRONG> WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!! SURE YOU HAVE!!!!


http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/images2/0974.jpg LOLOLOLOL <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

so tell me you guys how well do you like those soft coils up front on a off camber downhill? (with a big cliff on the side)

ya they flex like mad and handle high speed whoops like no other but i will trade those qualitys for stability.

Well, I haven't been in the situation you described yet since this Rubicon trip was my first run in the rig other than Hollister. If the situation you describe is that much of a pucker factor, I will most likely bust out my center mounted winch (once I get it back from Randy) to aid in a situation like that. So far, I really like the setup. Time will tell of course if I start not liking it. Despite its visual look of instability, it doesn't feel that way when driving in it.

-Sam

[QUOTE]Originally posted by camo:
[QB]so tell me you guys how well do you like those soft coils up front on a off camber downhill? (with a big cliff on the side)

I run very soft coils on my TJ with the swaybars thrown in the trash can....used to be kinda spooky on those side hills, but I went with Rancho 9000's w/ in cab controls so I can firm up the down hill side and soften up the uphill side. And just leave 'em soft for all the other times...

I'm running a 4 bar-Vlink front and rear with coil-overs and it handles like a big quadrunner, the harder I hit it, the better it likes it. I'll never go back to leaves on this rig.
<IMG width=440 height=330 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/P5040107sml.jpg">

Originally posted by camo:
<STRONG>so tell me you guys how well do you like those soft coils up front on a off camber downhill? (with a big cliff on the side)

ya they flex like mad and handle high speed whoops like no other but i will trade those qualitys for stability.</STRONG> Your always gonna have trade-offs, You asked for a good coil set-up, if you wanted stiff, just put stiff coils up front, a soft leaf sprung front will act bad off camber downhill also!!! I personally did the coils for the improved approach angle.

I run very soft coils on my TJ with the swaybars thrown in the trash can....used to be kinda spooky on those side hills, but I went with Rancho 9000's w/ in cab controls so I can firm up the down hill side and soften up the uphill side. And just leave 'em soft for all the other times...Ummm... so you run across sidehill sections FAST? It's not like you've charged 'em with air, they'll still just dampen dynamic movement... a long, slow lean will compress the downhill side of your rig still...

I'm with Camo. I haven't seen all that many all-coil rigs that work all that great off the ramp. Leaf springs are low tech, but generally more predictable.

Randii

You are missing the point, a coil with the same spring rate will act very similar to a leaf the the same spring rate. You just think they are more unstable because everyone that puts coils on their rig goes for the ultra soft springs! With leaves you can not go ultra soft because you loose axle control.

Take one more look at the front spring track on my FJ.... quite a bit wider than the stock leaf set-up... that has the word "Stability" written all over it!!! But yes I do have ultra soft spring on it right now, still trying to find suitable rates.

Thats one of the great things about the 2 spring coil-over setups, U can change one or both spring rates in 15 min. my jeep weighs about 4100 equal ft/rear and I'm running 450 lb fronts and 350 lb rears, it could use a little more rear spring for baja work, maybe 350/400 would be best, but for rocks it works great, if I hammer it into a wall it will just start to bottom. It is too stiff to ramp well, but I never got too concerned about ramps anyway.

<IMG width=490 height=367 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/samside.jpg">
This does look scarry soft, but I agree nothing wrong with coils it is just possible to be to soft for some situations

Sorry, don't buy it. I have to agree with Ant.

Either way whatever theory is, I am very happy with my setup right now. VERY HAPPY. Whether technically right or wrong, it works well for my driving style right now.

-Sam

if your happy i'm happy.

no one setup is gonna be the end all solution. i like front leafs and rear 3 or 4 link. dosen't make it right or wrong. to each his own.

i have a 4 link in the front and rear of my early bronco and love it.
(you can see it here)
http://w3.one.net/~marc/broncohio/tech/fourlink.html

and just as camo said the down hill was a little spooky so i run a little stiffer coil in the front. it helps a lot. and yes i drive it on the road 65+ to work and to get icecream.

i use to think i got better articulation with the soft coils but i didn't. just a real shitty ride on the street. don't worry about going stiffer. it helps every thing. and it does not hurt the flex one bit. also for the guy that runs his 9000s on the light setting, when you say you turn the up hill side to the lightest setting, why? first of all it will let the body bounce around, secound the 9000s are not 100% adjustable, you can not adjust the rebound. it never changes from the factiory only the compression.

what i'm trying to say is don't go for the softest suspension, try the firmer side, you'll like it, it gives much more stabilaty at slow and faster speeds and does not hurt the flex.
trust me you will be glad you did.
sorry for the spelling, my wifes not here to yell at me...
steelman

if your happy i'm happy.
no one setup is gonna be the end all solution. i like front leafs and rear 3 or 4 link. dosen't make it right or wrong. to each his own.


Right on with that one Camo.

-Sam

Dirtrod,
what type of coil overs you runnin? i like the Kings, but do not have them. seems like good people and the price is middle of the road. some day i'll have a set can you give any pointer? things to ask for, external reservoirs, etc...

i'm thinking the 14 inch travel for the front and external bypass for the rear 1/4 elliptic.
thanks
steelman

Originally posted by dirtrod:
<STRONG>Thats one of the great things about the 2 spring coil-over setups, U can change one or both spring rates in 15 min. my jeep weighs about 4100 equal ft/rear and I'm running 450 lb fronts and 350 lb rears, it could use a little more rear spring for baja work, maybe 350/400 would be best, but for rocks it works great, if I hammer it into a wall it will just start to bottom. It is too stiff to ramp well, but I never got too concerned about ramps anyway.</STRONG>
WOW!!! I'm running 350/130 up front and 350/110 in back, I totally goofed on the back and am switching to 350/350. But the front seems to work well with those 130's.

Originally posted by steelman:
<STRONG>Ant,

i'm thinking the 14 inch travel for the front and external bypass for the rear 1/4 elliptic.
thanks
steelman</STRONG>
External bypass is only gonna help you at 100+mph, I wouldn't waste the $$

Originally posted by dirtrod:
<STRONG>Thats one of the great things about the 2 spring coil-over setups, U can change one or both spring rates in 15 min. my jeep weighs about 4100 equal ft/rear and I'm running 450 lb fronts and 350 lb rears, it could use a little more rear spring for baja work, maybe 350/400 would be best, but for rocks it works great, if I hammer it into a wall it will just start to bottom. It is too stiff to ramp well, but I never got too concerned about ramps anyway.</STRONG>

when you stack two springs on top of each other the new rate is found byt the equation Rnew=1/(1/r1 + 1/r2) So your spring rate with two 450 Lb springs is 225 Lb/in and your rear is 175 Lb/in. My front coils are 225 Lb/in (BC Broncos softest EB coils) and They work great.

I've got the 36"o/a x 15" travel doetsch, I don't have any experience with the others, so I can't compare. They told me the remotes are not needed unless you are racing hard and fast. They are pretty simple to work on, and the ride is fantastic. The only problems so far have been from hiem joints or rods giving away, and not the shocks fault. They are kinda noisey (spring noises) when flexing, but I can live with that.

Originally posted by Ant:
<STRONG>Originally posted by steelman:
Ant,

i'm thinking the 14 inch travel for the front and external bypass for the rear 1/4 elliptic.
thanks
steelman</STRONG>
External bypass is only gonna help you at 100+mph, I wouldn't waste the $$

Ant,
oh they do so much more than that. granted they are better suited for faster stuff but..
if you get the 3 stage external you can set the first stage softer to take the small bumps and set the 2nd stage to control the mid secsion and rebound. the 3rd you can set so stiff they act like a internal bump stop. or you can set the 2nd stage for high rebound to stop the wheels fron comeing of the ground after a nice ramp at the local tuff truck race. i have watched the buggys that have them and with relativly light spring rates you can set the compression and rebound so high that it gives a soft on road ride but still will have the damping to give fether soft landings from 6 feet in the air. its also fun to take grandma out and hit the 8 inch parking lot cerbs at 50 MPH and not feel a thing. also going off the 4 foot high semi loading dock at about 50 is fun.

and all this adjustability with just a standard screw driver and a 5/8 wrench.

i agree they are big bucks but man would it be cool.
steelman

[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: steelman ]

Originally posted by steelman:
<STRONG>Ant,
oh they do so much more than that. granted they are better suited for faster stuff but..
if you get the 3 stage external you can set the first stage softer to take the small bumps and set the 2nd stage to control the mid secsion and rebound. the 3rd you can set so stiff they act like a internal bump stop. or you can set the 2nd stage for high rebound to stop the wheels fron comeing of the ground after a nice ramp at the local tuff truck race. i have watched the buggys that have them and with relativly light spring rates you can set the compression and rebound so high that it gives a soft on road ride but still will have the damping to give fether soft landings from 6 feet in the air. its also fun to take grandma out and hit the 8 inch parking lot cerbs at 50 MPH and not feel a thing. also going off the 4 foot high semi loading dock at about 50 is fun.

i agree they are big bucks but man would it be cool.
steelman</STRONG>
Good point, they would be neat to play with. but $600 for one... OUCH!!

<IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">

It seems like everyone has there own different setups, doetsch said they don't like to see more that 50 lb/in difference between the top and bottom rates,so those 350/130 make me wonder what the deal is...my rear 350s try to bend sideways somewhat, and I can't see how a 130 could work at all (if they are based on the same idea/standards)...wtf

Originally posted by Gordon:
<STRONG>when you stack two springs on top of each other the new rate is found byt the equation Rnew=1/(1/r1 + 1/r2) So your spring rate with two 450 Lb springs is 225 Lb/in and your rear is 175 Lb/in. My front coils are 225 Lb/in (BC Broncos softest EB coils) and They work great.</STRONG>

Excellent formula, that makes it much easier to figure out. But how do you add over-all length into the calculation?? Because isn't 12" of 225lb rate is gonna act different that 24" of 225lb rate to some extent?

Originally posted by Gordon:
<STRONG>when you stack two springs on top of each other the new rate is found byt the equation Rnew=1/(1/r1 + 1/r2) So your spring rate with two 450 Lb springs is 225 Lb/in and your rear is 175 Lb/in. My front coils are 225 Lb/in (BC Broncos softest EB coils) and They work great.</STRONG>

I'm not questioning your math skills, but explain how this works effectively.

If you think about it from a strictly mechanical view, a 450lb spring is gonna need 450 lbs exerted on it to compress 1", whether it's another spring or a solid piece of metal pushing on it, it should not make a difference.

Originally posted by dirtrod:
<STRONG>It seems like everyone has there own different setups, doetsch said they don't like to see more that 50 lb/in difference between the top and bottom rates,so those 350/130 make me wonder what the deal is...my rear 350s try to bend sideways somewhat, and I can't see how a 130 could work at all (if they are based on the same idea/standards)...wtf</STRONG>
I have no idea, I'm still trying to figure this stuff out myself.... dual rate, spring stops, limit straps, shock charge, spring track, spring angle... so many variables, my head is spinning!!!!
<IMG SRC="smilies/eyemouth.gif" border="0">

Screw the math...All I know is that I can romp and stomp over bastetball sized rocks at 30 mph, leap over huge lumps at 50 mph, and creep along the top of slippery rocks at a crawl , I couldn't be happier.

You want to be sure to throw in CG height, overall weight, roll center height, and maybe rotational moments of inertia into your list of variables to consider if you want to get really in depth.
As for the question on adding springs in series, the equation is right, not intuitive, but it's right. more on this later.
ok, I'm back. Look at the stacked springs this way: they don't really share the load, but the deflection in each spring adds up since they're stacked. Think of the 450/450 lb example above. Imagine each spring having equal amount of the load on it, so if it has 1000 lb of load on the stack (shock), they'll each move like they have the full 1000lbs on each spring. This amount is 1000/450=2.22 inches. But they're stacked, so the overall deflection for the stack is 2.22+2.22 = 4.44". The overall rate for the stack on the shock is found by dividing the load by the deflection. 1000/4.44 = 225 lb/in.

[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: Stephen ]

Ok let me explain this without Math you got two 400 lb per inch springs that means if I put my fat 200Lb ass on top of one of those springs it gets 1/2 inch shorter. If you had a 400lb guy sit on the spring (any volunteers) it would compress 1 inch. If I stacked those two springs on end and sat (my 200lbs) on them then each spring would compress 1/2 inch. So that means the total effective spring (made up of the two springs)would compress 2 inches. The same holds true if you mix the rates up. If you used a 130 and a 350 you get a combined spring rate of 95 lb/in If I was to sit on a 95 lb/in spring my 200lbs would compress it 2.1 inches
if I sat on a 130 Lb per inch spring my 200 lbs would compress it 1.54 inches, and if I sat on the 350 lb per inch spring I would compress it 0.56 inches If you add up those two deflections that is equal to the 2.1 inch deflection. OOps I guess that was math I used there.


Here is the reason you might choose to go with a 130 and a 350 instead of two 190 lb springs to get your 95 lb/in spring rate. With the two different rate coils when the 130 lb coil bottoms out your spring rate goes up to 350 lb/in This can be set up to happen a few inches before your suspension bottoms out which is good for go fast baja type stuff. (I know they dont make 190 lb/in springs but lets pretend OK)

You want to be sure to throw in CG height, overall weight, roll center height, and maybe rotational moments of inertia into your list of variables to consider if you want to get really in depth.

Don't forget squat, anti-squat, unsprung rate, etc. etc. Link systems are COMPLICATED little buggers.

Randii

You're right Randii, we haven't even started with the variables for the locating linkage. I don't remember all the ones you mentioned, but they should include driveshaft plunge and pinion angle control too. among others

To really answer the original question here, I'd recommend a 3 link of some sort, assuming you're going to be running a crossover steering setup of some sort. A true 4 link is OK, but you have to build a good bit of compliance into the bushings in the arms for it to articulate, where a 3 link does not have that limitation. A 4 link front like jeep and dodge use is functionally equivalent to a radius arm, and radius arms have been dealt with pretty thoroughly in other posts.
You will run into some goofy stuff with a 3 leading link type suspension though. Assuming you run a 3 link similar to what the Allpro Toy ran (the one in Petersen's a while back) your caster angle will be controlled by the upper link located more to one side of the axle than the other. So you get different caster change depending on which way it articulates, or the body rolls. Other than that, I've been pretty happy with my 3 link. There are definitely issues with the coil stiffness, especially on my oinker 6600# K5, but the ride is awesome and the rest works ok and can be tuned in.
One general problem with any long travel frontend that has not been mentioned is how they lift on really steep hills. Some of that depends on rear suspension linkage goemetry, but any suspension will tend to unload on a hill, and they can get spooky when they have a lot of droop travel. The common cure seems to be a center limit strap on the front when running in that kind of terrain.

Holy Sh_t! I think I unleashed more than I wanted to know. Mabye what I need to know is what the spring rate on my aerostar coils are so that I can somewhat match that with some front ones that will hopefully take some of the guess work out of finding a good coil. Course the front ones are going to need to be stiffer as there is more weight on the front end. Ok so I've been thinking 3 link designs and I am thinking of the kind that has two main arms about 5 feet long like you see on broncos, but when the arms get close to the axle, they branch off into two pieces, one going to the top of the axle tube and the other going to the bottom of the axle tube. That seems like it would conctrol axle rap/pinion roll more evenly on both sides of the axle housing. I wonder if I can get away with running bushings where the tube connects to the axle tubes and then running a big ass hiem joint somewhere inside the frame rails that can rotate. Any comments? I need to know about this panhard bar placement issue. Anyone got pics of a good set up? I am already running cross over steering and it is near the horizontal plane. Thanks for the discussion.

Originally posted by steelman:
<STRONG>the 9000s are not 100% adjustable, you can not adjust the rebound. it never changes from the factiory only the compression.
</STRONG>

Sure does seem to make a difference in the rebound when you're trying to pull one to full extension by hand, setting one is easy and on five it's tough as hell.


<IMG SRC="smilies/question.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by randii:
<STRONG>I run very soft coils on my TJ with the swaybars thrown in the trash can....used to be kinda spooky on those side hills, but I went with Rancho 9000's w/ in cab controls so I can firm up the down hill side and soften up the uphill side. And just leave 'em soft for all the other times...Ummm... so you run across sidehill sections FAST? It's not like you've charged 'em with air, they'll still just dampen dynamic movement... a long, slow lean will compress the downhill side of your rig still...

I'm with Camo. I haven't seen all that many all-coil rigs that work all that great off the ramp. Leaf springs are low tech, but generally more predictable.

Randii</STRONG>

It's not perfect, but it DOES help. Before I put the Rancho's on it would lean real bad, but now it's a lot better....not level at all, but better. And they adjust fast. Oh yea, and I never drive this beater anywhere fast <IMG SRC="smilies/csmile.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by camo:
<STRONG>so tell me you guys how well do you like those soft coils up front on a off camber downhill? (with a big cliff on the side)

ya they flex like mad and handle high speed whoops like no other but i will trade those qualitys for stability.</STRONG>my shit is more stable now than it ever was with leaves.just my truck tho not trying to say coils are the absolute end all of suspensions.but mine work really good.theyre 3.5 wildhorses in the nose 5.5s out back.the front is a 3 link with a panhard,the rear is just a 4 link.

<IMG width=120 height=90 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/0846s.jpg"> <IMG width=120 height=90 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/0847s.jpg"> <IMG width=120 height=90 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/0848s.jpg">

coiled,
Before you get carried away with radius arms, do some careful reseach on building them. Search back on this page, there's miles of info already been thrown out about it. What you're proposing can work, but you need to make sure you have plenty of available bushing flex so the arms will work right.
You might look to ford ranger or f150 coils, there are a variety available that may work for you.
DO LOTS OF RESEARCH ON THIS, IT WILL MINIMIZE YOUR TRAIL PROBLEMS AND RE-FABRICATION TIME AND EXPENSE.

Ok, I'm back from Arizona, lets talk more on coils..... Hey Dirtrod, what is your spring track in back and are the coils mounted straight up and down or at an angle??

Spring track ? Not sure of the terminology. I have them as close to vertical as possible and as wide as possible, they slope in a little at the top to allow for the wheel travel ( 1 wheel up , 1 wheel down ).

Spring track is how far apart the springs are center to center.

With the "Y" link system you are talking about, the only problem you will have is the axle needing to twist when one wheel up and other down, but this is not nessisarily a bad thing, you can use this efect on the street to work like a sway bar, and off road, you can disconect one of the links and it will move free.
If you don't want to hve the dificulty of disconecting one, you can build a slip section into one that you can snug for the street. look in the ford section for arms, and you will find somthing that I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Drew Persson:
<STRONG>Sure does seem to make a difference in the rebound when you're trying to pull one to full extension by hand, setting one is easy and on five it's tough as hell.


<IMG SRC="smilies/question.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

hate to answear this this way.. but can't resist..

no its not!!!

the laws of physic's dictate that it is just as easy on setting 5 as it is on setting 1.

check again.
steelman.

Hey Ant & DirtRod, what coilovers are you running? Did you buy new or used? $ (if you don't mind, ballpark)?

Looked for a while, decided that I better just SOA for now <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0"> and get it on the trail. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> But I'm still looking for the future.

Originally posted by steelman:
<STRONG>hate to answear this this way.. but can't resist..

no its not!!!

the laws of physic's dictate that it is just as easy on setting 5 as it is on setting 1.

check again.
steelman.</STRONG>

That's sure odd, I've had three pair of 9000's on two different vehicles and they all behaved this way. No minor difference either. I was recently changing spring packs and to make it easier to pull the shock mount off the ubolts I turned the shock to one and pulled it down. Then the mount (hanging from the shock) kept drifting down and getting in the way, so I shoved it up all the way and turned it to five. It stayed up. Coincidence?

Originally posted by DavidO:
<STRONG>Hey Ant & DirtRod, what coilovers are you running? Did you buy new or used? $ (if you don't mind, ballpark)?
</STRONG>

Used in the front, $300 total, new in the rear $800 total. That consists of Shocks, coil-over kits and springs.

Where did you find used coilovers? I'd love to find a set for that price.

Squash

Originally posted by randii:
<STRONG>You want to be sure to throw in CG height, overall weight, roll center height, and maybe rotational moments of inertia into your list of variables to consider if you want to get really in depth.

Don't forget squat, anti-squat, unsprung rate, etc. etc. Link systems are COMPLICATED little buggers.

Randii</STRONG>

This whole thread is VERY interesting to me. Any details/ info on squat, anti-squat, etc...?

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: JEEPRZ ]

Squat is when the rear of the vehicle lowers under acceleration, and of course anti-sqaut is when the rear lifts under acceleration. It all depends on where the rear links push on the Instantanious Center on the vehicle as to which it will do. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Hmm...ok then, since the details would take up alot of space here, where is the best place to get info on this?

I would try the library, look for books on 4-link suspension or Racing suspension. There are a lot of books written on 4-link for Drag-racing and circle track that would apply to Rock Crawling.

Originally posted by dirtrod:
<STRONG>I'm running a 4 bar-Vlink front and rear with coil-overs and it handles like a big quadrunner, the harder I hit it, the better it likes it. I'll never go back to leaves on this rig.
<IMG width=440 height=330 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/P5040107sml.jpg"></STRONG>

Do you happen to have any pictures of your front and/or rear suspension? I would really like to see some. Also, the way you have it put together, does the suspension bind during articulation because the axle wants to turn one way when it goes up and opposite when it goes down? Thankyou.

Originally posted by Patman:
<STRONG>I'm not questioning your math skills, but explain how this works effectively.

If you think about it from a strictly mechanical view, a 450lb spring is gonna need 450 lbs exerted on it to compress 1", whether it's another spring or a solid piece of metal pushing on it, it should not make a difference.</STRONG>
okay i cant prove his math, but i pulled an example out of my ass to check it and it worked. Lets say you exert 500 lbs on a 500/250 setup, the 500lb pound spring moves 1 inch, and the 250 pound spring moves 2 inches for a grand total of 3 inches, 500/3=166.6666, just as his equation gives us for that situation

Well put.

Originally posted by coiled:
<STRONG>Holy Sh_t! I think I unleashed more than I wanted to know. Mabye what I need to know is what the spring rate on my aerostar coils are so that I can somewhat match that with some front ones that will hopefully take some of the guess work out of finding a good coil. Course the front ones are going to need to be stiffer as there is more weight on the front end. Ok so I've been thinking 3 link designs and I am thinking of the kind that has two main arms about 5 feet long like you see on broncos, but when the arms get close to the axle, they branch off into two pieces, one going to the top of the axle tube and the other going to the bottom of the axle tube. That seems like it would conctrol axle rap/pinion roll more evenly on both sides of the axle housing. I wonder if I can get away with running bushings where the tube connects to the axle tubes and then running a big ass hiem joint somewhere inside the frame rails that can rotate. Any comments? I need to know about this panhard bar placement issue. Anyone got pics of a good set up? I am already running cross over steering and it is near the horizontal plane. Thanks for the discussion.</STRONG>
This seems to be a simple effective setup, but I would use bushings at the axle mounts and a heim where the upper link coming off the top of the axle attaches to the lower link. This seems to releive some of the bind in this setup

Originally posted by Gordon:
<STRONG><IMG width=490 height=367 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/samside.jpg">
This does look scarry soft, but I agree nothing wrong with coils it is just possible to be to soft for some situations</STRONG>
Holy shit that is the funniest thing i have ever seen!!!!!!!

Yeah?? But he sure as hell GETS IT!!
http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/images2/1065.jpg

I wonder if I can get away with running bushings where the tube connects to the axle tubes and then running a big ass hiem joint somewhere inside the frame rails that can rotate. Any comments?

Sure, I'd use bushings on the axle side. The hiem joints are not going to help any on the axle side if you have 2 different mounting points on the axle. Where the bushings are going to be on the axle, you will not be experiencing any twisting, that is taken up at the hiem joint on the other end of the link, bolted to the frame. Bu using the busings, you'll be saving $$ and sacrificing no functionalbility(?)

i've just gotten into coilovers on my willys the best book i have so far is the dave morgan chassis book. jegs has them in stock i think its 29.95 but money well spent. this book covers all the basics and how to change anti squat ect. its geared towards drag racing but its all the same when it comes to geometry. its very intelled but well written i got the idea from a drag racing buddy he read this book and made his owen rear suspension and the car hooks killer runs in the 8s and has a 1.30 60 foot time and trips the 60 foot beams with the rear tires.the book is awsome i personaly didn't get any respones on this board on the same subject but its good someone did. personaly ive changed my mind again and im going 1/4 rear and coilovers front...lets get it !!!!!!!! <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

by the way im using johnny joints all the way around <IMG SRC="smilies/puke.gif" border="0"> damn this is a lot of money <IMG SRC="smilies/puke.gif" border="0">

You will have to do some tricky sterring links for it to work right. I was thinking of doing a five link with on of the lateral links left out leaving four and not having to worry about any bind but still steering right by matching the draglink with the track bar.

So does anyone have any links on how to mount coilovers in the front? And would I have to run a hydro steering setup to get it to work right with no binding?

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be almost impossible to get anti-squat on the front end without mounting the links in front of the axle. Otherwise the links would have to be level or pointed upward to the axle from the frame, which is not practical on a lifted truck. How important is anti-squat for the front axle. I completely realize it's value on the rear end.

Originally posted by tacurl:
<STRONG>Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be almost impossible to get anti-squat on the front end without mounting the links in front of the axle. Otherwise the links would have to be level or pointed upward to the axle from the frame, which is not practical on a lifted truck. How important is anti-squat for the front axle. I completely realize it's value on the rear end.</STRONG>

Actually the front end will "unload" when you climb rocks due to the angle and length of the front links (similar to anti-squat in the rear). The key to fixing that problem is long links which will lessen the angle and lesson the radius that the link see's. Thats why most Bronco guys make longer or lengthen the radius arms on early bronco's.

[ 10-10-2001: Message edited by: Ant ]