What is the 411 on this backyard trick?

I have an LT-1 that is heating up at highway speeds and some of my drag racing buddies tell me to put 1/2 of a cup of detergent (non-foaming type) in my radiator.

Sup with that??:confused:

Anyone vouch for this?

Wouldn't that just do the same thing as a good cooling system flush? The detergent will just scrub the scale off of the cooling passages, making the heat transfer more efficient?

there is this stuff called "water wetter" that works damn good,,it dropped the temp in my 327 by 40degrees. and thats good when your radiator is filled with mud,,,,,,,,,,

Originally posted by 4x4man
there is this stuff called "water wetter" that works damn good,,it dropped the temp in my 327 by 40degrees. and thats good when your radiator is filled with mud,,,,,,,,,, how much did you put in ? jiMMy

Usually, it's one bottle per cooling system. Cost about 10 bucks.

nolen i have heard of soap to clean but never to cool thats a new one, i do however run a bit of vingar in my radiator from time to time to clean out scale, then flush. also you can add a tablespoon or so of baking soda to the coolant and leave it there, this doesnt do much for cooling, but does keep the lime, rust and other deposits suspended in the coolant to help prevent scale.

did alot of reading on the water wetter and other type adds. you need to flush out all the coolant and run straight water with wetter for best results. it does work though.

heating up at highway speeds is a sign that your fan clutch is bad. Try replacing it. When your engine is hot, try to spin the fan (engine off) with your hand. If you can spin it mor than 1/3 or 1/2 turn it is bad.

SeanP

i bet it is your fan setup. you rad is plenty big for your motor. i didn't think your fan was up to the task when i saw it.

Nolen, My dragster buddies have it as a cheap airator(sp) just like a dimple core but the key is only water....

Originally posted by high5
i bet it is your fan setup. you rad is plenty big for your motor. i didn't think your fan was up to the task when i saw it.

Brian, it did fine until I stuck these big ass tranny and P/S coolers in front of it.

I have an LT-1, so I am stuck with an electric fan.

This is the Biggest Baddest Black Magic I could buy...2800 CFM.

The soap supposedly does the same thing as this water wetter stuff......
Thanks for the tip on the water wetter Water Wetter from Summit (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=8342)

For an instant fix, use straight water(not gay water) and no antifreeze. Use waterwetter or something like it. The additive helps cool up about 7deg. and lubricates the water pump. Not using antifreeze is what really cools it down. Don't use an additive called "40 below" by Pro Blend. It does not work and is expensive.

The soap is a new one to me :confused:

Probably no better than a flush but it leaves the crap in there. We used to use goldfish in the water trough for the horses to clean the gunk up try that:flipoff2: Anybody ever use bleach not very good for the seals and the hoses :laughing:

Ok, I have to ask, what is the principle here? I can think of three things:

1) Changes the heat conduction of the water.
2) Changes the conduction rate between water and the radiator and/or engine block.

3) Changes the viscocity of the water to a point where it flows through the radiator at the most efficient rate (unlikely, since it flows at different rates at different RPMS.)

Any of these? None?

Here's the alledged deal with the soap. Laundry soap contains anti-surfacants (sp) Which means it kills the surface tension of water, allowing the water to make full contact with the water passages, to prevent hot spots and make the cooling system more efficient.

It sounds really freaking backyard to me.

Redline water wetter does the same thing, but better and provides corrosion protection and is engineered, not backyard. Royal Purple does about the same thing.

http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/wwti.htm

Soap breaks down the surface tension of water, so it has better surface contact with the engine for cooling.

nolen that aluminum radiator you have is pretty big and plenty to cool your motor. you have an airflow problem one way or another.

you could move the trany cooler somewhere else and put its own fan on it and move teh steering cooler low on the rad.

i run a similar size rad and just the big dawg black magic as well and its fine(course i dont drive it ont eh freeway) but i am missing the inner fenders too. jiMMy

Originally posted by J-Bone
Here's the alledged deal with the soap. Laundry soap contains anti-surfacants (sp) Which means it kills the surface tension of water, allowing the water to make full contact with the water passages, to prevent hot spots and make the cooling system more efficient.


So it's #2 :D

Thanks!

Nolen, you and I basically have the same setup, big aluminum radiator with electric fans, my rig will run about 203 degrees on even the hottest days and will sometimes climb to 213, thats the hottest ever. I tried the same thing you did with putting the PS cooler and tranny cooler infront of the radiator, killed my air flow and added tons of heat up front, consequently my engine temp soared and couldnt keep it cooled.. so i tossed the PS cooler and i am currently trying to locate a place for the tranny cooler..
my guess is you have the same problem i did....

When you add a detergent or product like Watter Wetter to your coolant, you are breaking the H-bonds of the water molecules. The H-bonds are a large part of the reason that water is such a good carrier of heat. When you add that crap, you reduce the water's ability to hold heat. This means that your coolant temperature will go down and give the APPEARANCE of running cooler. Your block and oil however, are actually running hotter. If you run a coolant temp gauge AND an oil temp gauge, you can see this happening. Just because the water temp gauge is showing a cooler temp, it does not mean the system is cooling any better. Address the problem at the root and avoid the quick fixes.

Originally posted by FeCamel
Address the problem at the root and avoid the quick fixes.

Such a great point.

Originally posted by high5
nolen that aluminum radiator you have is pretty big and plenty to cool your motor. you have an airflow problem one way or another.


I'll second this one.
Move that tranny cooler its blocking your rad and adding heat.

Secondly.. is there any way for the hot air to escape the engine compartment? We've gone round and round an round a few times in vehicles on WTH is this thig over heating. Once we popped a few 2" knockout holes in the fenderwells and threw a few louvers in the hood for the heat to escape the problem seemed to be gone.

Originally posted by FeCamel
Address the problem at the root and avoid the quick fixes.

Damn Mr Wizard!! :D:D Your right though, we watched that happed on my uncles dodge power wagon that he is building. Flushed the system and ran water, and water wetter. Yeah coolant temp went down but he noticed the oil temp was high.

We ended up getting a new clutch fan, doing the "detergent trick and flushing the system. Then we dropped a HUGE radiator (Which nolan can't really do, I know how hard it is to fit any radiator in a cruiser) and all the temps went down.

Nolan, can you move your cooler?? My buddy had a similar problem on his flatty, and we moved his cooler and got a small fan from pic n pull to pull air thru. Works much better now.

Nolen..what about the Lincoln Mark VIII fan? 4500cfm is what I heard, although that sucka draws a TON of current...

I did some searching on it, and they can be had for $100 from the pick n pull... Just need a some BIG wire... My alt. isn't big enough for one yet, or I'd try it.

Thinking about a 60 rad too... (your rad is HUGE though, so I'm thinking more for my situation)

Actually, Dawn dish soap is supposed to be the trick stuff to add. Aparrently something to do with surface tension of the water and heat transfer. I haven't done it recently, but when my old 350 had heat issues I added it and it seemed to make a difference.

WaterWetter is available at most any ATV/cycle performance shop...very common for those water cooled little motors.

A couple local radiator shops swear that running a cross-flow radiator is the trick to cooling. Cruiser stockers are verticle flow, and not nearly as efficient. You do need to mod your rad mount tho to provide top support, but not a big deal. One friend who ran a high stall and a built 350 in his Blazer swapped to a 2-core crossflow and it solved his issues.

Chances are you have an air flow problem.
If it was running OK before the coolers were put in, pull the hood and run down the hwy. If the temp stays down, then you know you need to open up the air flow out of the eng compartment, if you want to keep the coolers in front of the rad.
You could relocate the coolers also.
Whatever you do, remember a couple of things, straight water is one of the most corrosive cooling elements you can put in a cooling system. Also, for every 10* above 160 the water gets, it doubles in corrosivity. An added factor to that is the eng oil temperature and the effects on the oil itself, is that for every 18* the temperature of the oil increases, oil oxidation doubles.

Originally posted by FeCamel
When you add a detergent or product like Watter Wetter to your coolant, you are breaking the H-bonds of the water molecules. The H-bonds are a large part of the reason that water is such a good carrier of heat. When you add that crap, you reduce the water's ability to hold heat. This means that your coolant temperature will go down and give the APPEARANCE of running cooler. Your block and oil however, are actually running hotter. If you run a coolant temp gauge AND an oil temp gauge, you can see this happening. Just because the water temp gauge is showing a cooler temp, it does not mean the system is cooling any better. Address the problem at the root and avoid the quick fixes.

Thats exactly what I heard before as well. Sure your temp gauge is lower, thats cause the coolant is picking up less heat!!

alright, help a newbie do some basic math here...

water wetter, soap and detergent just lower the coolant's ability to carry heat, and thus don't aid in cooling the motor... that makes sense, but what about running just water? Is the same thing happening? Or does water cool better than anti-freeze?

And as long as we're on the topic, wouldn't running just water be harmful to the system as far as corrosion is concerned?

i.e. would it make sense to use just water in the summer time, and then use an anti-freeze mix once the weather cools down again? Or is this a really bad idea? Thanks

Originally posted by Eskimo
Nolen..what about the Lincoln Mark VIII fan? 4500cfm is what I heard, although that sucka draws a TON of current...

I did some searching on it, and they can be had for $100 from the pick n pull... Just need a some BIG wire... My alt. isn't big enough for one yet, or I'd try it.

Thinking about a 60 rad too... (your rad is HUGE though, so I'm thinking more for my situation)

What year Mark VIII are these fans in?

OK, update.....

The coolers in front of the radiator kicked the hell out of the tranny overheating. I went from a fin and tub cooler to one of those TruTemp new-style dimple coolers.

Tranny temps went from 230+ to no higher than 180*....mostly 165* around town. I am running through the radiator first and then to the 14x14 tranny cooler.

As long as I was in stop and go traffic and kept the Cruiser under 50mph on the highway, my temps stayed at 195-210. Fast, slow, anything, never over 210....even for 10 miles at 50 mph.

Well, I got on the freeway and romped on it and got up to 75 and watched the temp guage climb like a tach:eek:

It got to 230* before I pulled over.

The cool thing is that once I pulled over it took 4 minutes fro the system to go from 235* to 195* with the engine at idle sitting on the side of the road.

This tells me it is definately an airflow issue. Yes I could move the tranny cooler under the tun and stick it's own fan to it, but if I can run a constant 50-55 mph and keep cool on the trail, I am A-OK.

I am going to flip my Bezel (relax Cruiser guys :flipoff2: ) and I am going to take my Hella's off the front and cut a little inner fender away and try-try again.

I think I am going to pass on the Water Wetter, sounds like SNAKE OIL to me.....


Thanks for the great discussion!

Originally posted by tuckster
alright, help a newbie do some basic math here...

water wetter, soap and detergent just lower the coolant's ability to carry heat, and thus don't aid in cooling the motor... that makes sense, but what about running just water? Is the same thing happening? Or does water cool better than anti-freeze?

And as long as we're on the topic, wouldn't running just water be harmful to the system as far as corrosion is concerned?

i.e. would it make sense to use just water in the summer time, and then use an anti-freeze mix once the weather cools down again? Or is this a really bad idea? Thanks

Read the post I made a little above yours. One of the worst things you can use is straight water.

Nolen, Im having a similar problem in my hotrod (similar conditions) I changed to all purified water and water wetter and it didn't make any difference. I did it for an experiment as it is cheap and easy and quick to return to normal. Just thought Id throw that out there

arndog

Nolen,
before you go cutting you inner fenders maybe you should consider one of those really sweet hood scoops like this: hood scoop (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=21031) :D :eek: :D

you might want to see if the temp rises when your parked & revving the motor w/ the black magic on. My guess is that the temp will rise pretty rapidly. my experience w/ a black magic is that they will not be able to keep up at & can actually slow air at freeway speed. as suggested earlier, also try running w/ out your hood that should tell you if airflow is the problem or if its your water pump or thermostat.

I wouldn't recommend running straight water either. Not only are there corrosion issues, but you will need to bump the pressure of the system up as well. When you add antifreeze to the water, it causes boiling point elevation and cooling point depression. Straight water will boil at a much lower temperature and freeze at a much higher temperature than water mixed with antifreeze. That is bad because if your system can't hold the pressure, it is not cooling effectively.

Woody: The Dawn probably lowered the coolant temperature, but only because it decreases the water's capacity to carry heat away from the block. It APPEARED cooler, but the actual engine was probably running warmer.

FEcamel brought up a great point here. let me address this with another product called EVANS coolant products.
like FEcamel said, wtaer wetter and similar you are reducing the waters heat carrying capabilities, this is what antifreeze does also, which is why straight water works best. EVANS is a coolant that is used straight, it is not mixed with water, and no water is added to the system, this product was braught about by the racing industry and the need for aerodinamics, which caused them to use smaller radiators. EVANS found out through alot of research that if there was no water the coolant would have a crazy high boiling point with virtually no hot spots and the engine could run much hotter with no ill effects, and now, most race cars run in excess of 300 deg. sprint cars typically see glowing red combustion cylinders. same for your vehicle though it is unnerving seeing the temp guage so high, if you eliminate the hot spots your golden. so, plain water is best for cooling, but does not lubricate. water wetter adds lube but also raises temps a little over plain water, and from there the more coolant thats added the warmer it gets. theres alot more to go into, but basically if you have a product to reduce hot spots you may run a little warmer, but the enigine as a whole will be more balanced.
i do not run EVANS in my rig cause of the cost and if i rupture the rad or hose wheelin, well you know, but i have been running it in my DD ford truck. typically i run about 260 deg. in the summer, been about 3 years now and i just got used to seeing the temp
guage so high.
i would suggest plain water and some form of lubricant, like water wetter. the coolant is for freeze protection in the winter, all it does in the summer is lubricate and raise the boiling point. ask anyone who knows, they'll tell you coolant does not cool. and make sure your cap is good, cuz you want the better boiling point from the pressure.

Rhino, I understand raising the boiling point, both thru pressure and the use of antifreeze.
As for the Evans product, I would not want to subject an angine that is designed to run ~ 180 - 200* to consistant 260* temps.
Yes, they use it in racing engines, but the life expectancy of a racing engine is nowhere near the life expectancy of a DD or a rigs engine.
The only support I have seen for Evan is from Evans themselves. I am in the preventative maintenance end of the heavy equipment industry, and work for the Cat dealer down here.
The best antifreeze, IMO, is the long life style coolant as it has no silicates in it, which is what causes most of the water pump seal failures, it is also more environmentally friendly, and does not need to be replaced as often.
There's a lot more to keeping your coolant in good shape than that, I have posted a lot of it already on this board, so if you do a search you will find it.

Antifreeze does reduce the heat-carrying capacity of the water, but not to a significant degree. The benefits of using antifreeze far outweigh the slightly dimished carrying capacity of the water. Ethylene glycol is a fairly polar molecule and it will interact with water molecules via the same H-bonds the molecules have with themselves. The main benefits of antifreeze are the freezing point depression which allows your coolant to not freeze solid and rip your block apart, the boiling point elevation which lets you cool your system under reasonable pressure and which keeps more of the coolant in liquid form and decreases hot spots, and finally the coolants ability to act as a lubricant as well as a neutralizer of the corrosive properties of the water.

I think what Rhino was trying to say is that his gauge read 260, but that the engine as a whole system was actually running cooler because the product he added increased the heat-carrying capacity of his coolant. Just remember THE WATER TEMPERATURE GAUGE DOES NOT ACCURATELY REFLECT THE TEMPERATURE AT WHICH YOUR ENGINE IS ACTUALLY OPERATING! It CAN be an important tool, but it is better used to note trouble from a known baseline. I never understood why cars never came with an oil temp gauge, it would be MUCH more useful.

Originally posted by FeCamel
...I think what Rhino was trying to say is that his gauge read 260, but that the engine as a whole system was actually running cooler because the product he added increased the heat-carrying capacity of his coolant. Just remember THE WATER TEMPERATURE GAUGE DOES NOT ACCURATELY REFLECT THE TEMPERATURE AT WHICH YOUR ENGINE IS ACTUALLY OPERATING! It CAN be an important tool, but it is better used to note trouble from a known baseline. I never understood why cars never came with an oil temp gauge, it would be MUCH more useful.

I understand that the water is "hotter" with the Evans, according to Rhino.
On most of the engines today, the water temp is directly in relation to the ECM that controls the engine timing,etc and then the eng is thinking it is overheating.
Let me expand on this a little. Suppose the cooling system is working perfect, the temperature difference from the inlet to the outlet of the rad is the perfect 10* and, pressure is good, coolant mix is good, etc.
Now, with the normal coolant mix, the pressure, depending on the engine, is from 12 - 15 PSI. Consider that under pressure and with the proper mix, we have effectively raised the boiling point of the water to ~ 280*. Normal hoses, normal clamps, no special anything. Blow the upper rad hose, you get the replacement in the local Discount Auto, top off the rad, and away you go.
Now, with the Evans, according to Rhino, you have to get the pressure higher, possibly shortening the life of the hoses etc, and
lets say a hose breaks. Now, you are in a little ramshakle of a town and there is no where to get the Evans product. You have to get the hose (same cost) but now you have to also get antifreeze/water mix, drain the cooolling system, and then refill it with the new coolant, and dispose of the old Evans.
Persoanlly, I like to be able to keep it as simple as possible, forget the weird stuff, although it may work fine, as I tend to have breakdowns well away from the specialty store.
Plus, if I am not mistaken, the only way to get the Evans is through mailorder.

from what i remember, LT1s run at 218 degs in a vette, or at least that's what the computer likes to keep them at.
how hot are you running? on problem i've found on cruisers is not the size of the rad, but the amount of air flow obstruction due to all the sheetmetal in front of the rad, aka the bib having pretty samll inlets for the air to actually reach the rad.
my best friend runs a big block in his cruiser with an auto behind it and it stays below 190. he does have a full size chevy rad in it and he cut part of his fiberglass bib to provide more airflow. still, his motor is not even close to stock, probably upward of 375 horse and i'm not braggin here.

another thing you might want to investigate is putting a fan on your engine. from what i remember, the olds country wagon(early 90's wagon) had the same block setup with a clutch fan.:D
and it is rear wheel drive with a 4L60E trans behind the LT1's smaller brother(cast iron heads).