i'm looking at axles for a new buggy and would love to run mog axles, however there's no way i can afford one with disc brakes. How do you think braking would compare between mog axles with drums and rockwells with pinion disc brakes? Also if anyone has other opinions between the two i'd love to hear them.

-Steve

mogs are sweet if you are gonna build the chassis to fit them. definitely start with the axles first. Lay them on the floor at your desired Wheelbase, and build the chassis around them. As for the brakes, i think the pinion brakes would have more power, but they are very touchy. Mog drums would prolly be great for rockcrawling, just don't go roadracing, as i would bet they fade quickly...

chassis is already built, i'm buying it off someone. I haven't picked it up yet so i don't exactly know if the mog axles would work well or not but i figure i could make them work relatively painlessly. Here are some pics of the 4 seater chassis, what do you think? btw i bought it from BRIAN on the board.

pics of tube chassis (http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/offroadr35/lst?.dir=/tube+chassis&.view=t)

-Steve

Chassis looks cool. I think the rear will be fine. Up front, you will prolly need to cut away that lower bar that sticks out forward. hard to tell from the pics though, they are kinda dark.

Originally posted by offroadr35
chassis is already built, i'm buying it off someone. I haven't picked it up yet so i don't exactly know if the mog axles would work well or not but i figure i could make them work relatively painlessly. Here are some pics of the 4 seater chassis, what do you think? btw i bought it from BRIAN on the board.

pics of tube chassis (http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/offroadr35/lst?.dir=/tube+chassis&.view=t)

-Steve

Do you have anymore pics of the chassis ?
Who makes it ?
What do they cost ?

that's all i have. he made it for himself but needs money so he sold it to me for what he had in it (read $250 for tube, wire, and gas :eek: :eek: ) :flipoff2:

-Steve

WOW, you are gettin a SICK deal on that thing. Most of the top companies (avalanche, Cambpell, etc.) sell bare chassis for around 5k...

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
WOW, you are gettin a SICK deal on that thing. Most of the top companies (avalanche, Cambpell, etc.) sell bare chassis for around 5k...

yup, that's why i'm picking it up. I have no use for it really, don't have the cash, space, or skill to build it. But i'm going to do my best to figure something out cuz i have some ideas that i would love to make a reality and this is too good a deal to pass up.

-Steve

It looks like to me that you will be close on that chassis with mogs becasue you dont want it to be sky high. It looks like it was made with huge wheel clearances so one would think that the optimal ride hight would be low for a good center of gravity. If you dont care about going fast ever then go with the mogs and make any mods to the chassis that are needed to keep the ride hight low. At this stage of the game, building something up higher and out of the way is not a big deal and it will be worth it. Just and idea but If I were going to do portals I would get some 406s instead of 404s and build an upside down nine inch for them. They are stronger by far than the 404s and are rated for alot higher speed which could be fun in dunes and across open terrain. The 406s are completely cast axle housings so they are heavier than a rockwell, but with a well built nine inch in the middle ( 35 spline pinion and 40 spline shafts ) they would be light and extremely strong. Just the way I would do it if I were going to do it. Personally though I am going independent on my first all out buggy and I promiss that what I have in mind will out flex any strait axle. You will all just have to wait and see. :flipoff2:

Check this out...

http://www.killeraxles.com/html/killeraxles.html

Originally posted by CHOKEu
Check this out...

http://www.killeraxles.com/html/killeraxles.html

riiiight, i already said i can't afford disc brakes on the mog axles. if i could i'd rather just buy some hybrid 9"/mog axles from daniel. He can make them in any width, any locker, any ratio, etc. for 4000 for fronts and 3500 for rears. If someone wants to sponsor me i'd be more than happy to have them for free/cheap though :rolleyes:

-Steve

any one of us on this board would love to be sponsored.... I think go for rockwell.... from what youve told me.. you can get them for ~1300 for both then do that. but as far as drum brakes on the portal goes... I'm not sure.. they might work. these axles arent made for mini trucks... they hold their own so the brakes might not be that bad. maybe somebody with experience with them will tell you about it.... but the rockwells are looking nice right now....

rockwells = cheaper and easier, less ground clearance

mogs = more $$ and harder install, more ground clearance

what is more important to you??

go with the rockwells and save the money to spend elsewhere

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
rockwells = cheaper and easier, less ground clearance

mogs = more $$ and harder install, more ground clearance

what is more important to you??

Clue me in here... Just how much are MOG style axles??? Cheaper than a Dynatrac 60?? More??:confused:

Depends on who you know, where you get em, and what you want. I suppose all in all, they are comparable to a dynatrac 60. I believe those 9" hybrids are around $5-6k each. A Dynatrac Pro60, HP with chro-mo, CTM's, and TJ brackets would be right around there. But hey, this is a MOG vs. Rockwells, not a MOG vs. D60 comparison...

mog axles really aren't THAT expensive. a guy on the board sells them for 1300 for a front and 900 for a rear at www.exaxt.ca That is really not much more than the hp60s under my bronco. i think they offer significant benefits over the rockwells so if i can somehow fit them into my budget i'm going to do my best to do so.

-Steve

I'm still trying to figure out clearance issues to keep from having to jack a rig sky high. It seems the way to do it is to move the axle forward past the oil pan for clearance. But then you've still got very limited compression. This may be Ok tho. I was checking out rigs at the Erocc comp and they all had their bumpstops so they only had 3-4" of uptravel. Seems you would have to have some very soft springs if all of the travel is down and that would decrease your stability. My 94 bronco with coilovers in the front is setup for 6" uptravel and 10" down. This seems to work very well for me. With so much compression on the front end, the truck stays very level going over obstacles.

Anyways, so is that how you set up for mogs? with very little uptravel?
Rob

Well....on a mog itself there is limited uptravel, and the downtravel (which is more than the up) is ok.

http://sites.waldonet.net.mt/christian/Unimog001.jpeg

The design of the mog allows the frame to flex quite a bit, in fact the whole vehicle is designed around this flex.

http://sites.waldonet.net.mt/christian/Unimog005.jpeg

So adapting mog axles to a stiff framed vehicle will propose it's own set of issues.


Do to get mog axles, and not have the truck be 9' tall, you are looking at limited up travel, and long down.....or an interesting engine position.

i'm going to start a new thread of uptravel versus ground clearance. i'd love to hear what people have to say....

-Steve

Originally posted by offroadr35
i'm looking at axles for a new buggy and would love to run mog axles, however there's no way i can afford one with disc brakes. How do you think braking would compare between mog axles with drums and rockwells with pinion disc brakes? Also if anyone has other opinions between the two i'd love to hear them.

-Steve

I don't think you'll have any prob's with the Mog drum brakes, so long as you maintain them like any other drum brake (i.e., keep the mud, etc. out). The brakes are huge and are intended to stop a vehicle best weighed in tons. The primary issue is finding a M/C capable of handling them.

--Rob

Well I don't have any idea on how the mogs brake with drums, but I do know about rockwells with pinion brakes cause that is what I run. I am using my stock toyota master cylinder only, to push the brakes. I am using 1/2 ton chevy rotor and pads since that is what I had left over from my 44. I had them hooked up to the toy master cylinder and brake booster but if you pushed on the pedal it would throw you through the cage. (Literally, not exagerating!) With a single pinion brake in the rear it would lock up all four tires faster than you knew what was happening. So I disconnected the booster and to my wonderful suprise they work just like a brake should. I can push on it hard and it will stop hard but not lock up the tires. So I think it is the best braking system I have ever had on any of my 4 wheel drives. Didn't cost me a dime too. Course I'd be interested in the 14 bolt disk brakes set up that seems to be an relatively cheap mod as well. However if you got the money mog axles would be hella sweet. Why not a pinion disk set up on the mog axle? Bolted between the drive line and the flange? Just an idea.

mogs have selectable lockers, so when open there would be no brakes. Not a huge deal considering i can't imagine an instance when i wouldn't have at least the rear locked. To be honest im not sure why no one uses a pinion brake with the mog axles. i've never even seen a pinion brake in person, what exactly does it take to fab one up?

-Steve

Well here's what I did.
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/coiled1977/lst?&.dir=/My+Photos&.src=ph&.view=t

I like it caus I can bash it into rocks and not worry about it. but you could find a rotor and caliper that was hella small and use it. Pretty simple really just use a stationary mount to mount the caliper to so it will fit over the rotor. I built a little cage and welded the mount for the caliper onto it.

Just to let you know, I sell Mog axles, 1300US for a front and 700US for a rear, they come sandblasted and painted.

The Mog drum brakes will be okay for a rockcrawler but the 404's never were known for terrific braking abilities.

You can PM me if you are interested.
-Don

@offroader35
in my opinion the MOG axles are the only way to go for your "buggy" because you need all the groundclearance you can get. I also would use a rear steering axle for the buggy.
Right now our used front axles are priced to sell at 1000$.
See our updated price list .

@jeeper 111
You think the 406 axle is stronger by far? I don´t think so.
Take both axle apart and look at all the parts. some are a little stronger, but some are weaker. They have almost the same strenght, but the 404´s are far lighter.
I used 406 axles in my Jeep and now 404 in my Pick Up. I can not see any difference in strengt and speed. My Pick up is street legal and i drive all the time on the street without a problem.
I prefer to drive the 404 instead of the 406 on the street because there less unsprung weight what makes the truck more comfortable.
If you like tiresizes like 44´s and up, i would take the U 1300 axles. But they are realy heavy and expencive.

wolfgang@tibus-offroad.com
www.killeraxles.com

The top speed depends on the tire size. I have no problems with speed about 75 miles. I think i can go faster, but it´s no fun with 39,5" Swampers. I would say, before you blow the hubs you blow your transfercase because you have a high speed on the driveshaft.

When and if someone manages to dig up a spec on top speed, we need to identify the reason for the spec (transfer case, portal hubs, pinion bearings, etc.)... and we need to know what tire size the spec is intended for.

Running 40" tires at 55mph is pretty similar to running 48" tires at 66mph. IMHO, this is a moot point unless you are trying to set a land speed record on bare 20" rims. :flipoff2:

Randii

Daniel
If you think the bronce bushing is the problem, why don´t you change the bearing to a needle bearing? I can not see a problem with that.
As i told you, i drive my pick up almost every day without a problem.

I do not have MIL specs because these axles are not only build for MIL use.

Originally posted by Daniel
FOr those of you who dont know Steve He knows more than most people here...axle genius!

I'll second that. He builds some sick stuff :eek:

Originally posted by Daniel
Steve saw the MOG portals and said this:

These axle's have
a bronze bushing to hold the axle shaft at the ''U''joint. I would to see
the militray spk. on this.

Not being a ball buster here but I do have a question:
What about the bronze bushings used as pilot bushings in a manual transmission application? They spin at 3-4K for 100K miles or more....


Just curious as I have a DOKA.

Originally posted by offroadr35
i've never even seen a pinion brake in person, what exactly does it take to fab one up?

-Steve
1987 Mazda B2000 rotor
1988 Toyota truck caliper

I need to make a guard around mine, I already broke one rotor.

350Samurai, do you have any better pics of your 4link up front?? Thanks

Originally posted by convertiyota
350Samurai, do you have any better pics of your 4link up front?? Thanks
The front is a 3-link with a panhard bar:

front view:

Originally posted by offroadr35
mogs have selectable lockers, so when open there would be no brakes.
Why do people always assume this? Think about how an open diff works! If the driveshaft is locked in place... if one tire is rolling downhill the way you seem to think it would, the other tire has to rotate THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION the vehicle is traveling. And this has to occur at both axles, since the driveshafts are locked together.

The next time you jack up an opend diffed rig, try it. With the driveshaft fixed in place, spinning on tire causes the other tp spin backwards. Opening the diffs does not magically disconnect the axle from the driveshaft. :rolleyes:

So for your scenario to work, you'd have to climb something very steep or else very slippery, shift into two wheel drive, unlock the diffs, and jump out before it careened down the hill.

I've balanced on 2 wheels before. Wasn't slippery and it wasn't uphill (actually very slight downhill, and many people use their brakes for a very slow, controlled descent through the spot).

With pinion brakes and open diff's, you could press on the brake pedal all you want and it ain't gonna help. And it ain't gonna matter that the tires that are in the air are gonna turn in the opposite direction, either.

Sure, in that situation, I wouldn't go far, but why would you choose a system that could obviously let you lose control and put you into a worse situation?

--Rob (redundancy can be a good thing)

Originally posted by TNToy

Why do people always assume this? Think about how an open diff works! If the driveshaft is locked in place... if one tire is rolling downhill the way you seem to think it would, the other tire has to rotate THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION the vehicle is traveling. And this has to occur at both axles, since the driveshafts are locked together.

The next time you jack up an opend diffed rig, try it. With the driveshaft fixed in place, spinning on tire causes the other tp spin backwards. Opening the diffs does not magically disconnect the axle from the driveshaft. :rolleyes:

So for your scenario to work, you'd have to climb something very steep or else very slippery, shift into two wheel drive, unlock the diffs, and jump out before it careened down the hill.

Originally posted by ryeguy
I've balanced on 2 wheels before. Wasn't slippery and it wasn't uphill (actually very slight downhill, and many people use their brakes for a very slow, controlled descent through the spot).

With pinion brakes and open diff's, you could press on the brake pedal all you want and it ain't gonna help. And it ain't gonna matter that the tires that are in the air are gonna turn in the opposite direction, either.

Sure, in that situation, I wouldn't go far, but why would you choose a system that could obviously let you lose control and put you into a worse situation?

--Rob (redundancy can be a good thing)


Who drives around with an open set of rockwells anyway?

Originally posted by 350Samurai

Who drives around with an open set of rockwells anyway?

They take speedbumps betterr that way :D

Originally posted by bigdude


They take speedbumps betterr that way :D big dude do you think this woud have help me in the parking lot jump?in finland we have lots of snow bunnys ya and we need to be able to dodge them as they are a protected species ya if open we may be able to manuver faster ya .hey do you have some gotes?:flipoff2:

whats the ballpark cost of doing that toyota caliper and mazda rotor for the rockwell. im really debating on swapping out my 1tons for rockwells. just trying to compare pricing.. would 2 inch sway away coilovers be strong enough for the rockwells? or would i have to go to 2.5 inch coil overs. what coils did you use on the sami? 350sami.